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I'm going to flame a Retro Hoc fallacy for the above!
Look at it, Wylted posts a vote count with no whiteflame vote, then another with whiteflame voting, and whiteflame THEN adds himself. One or both of them is an evil time traveling wizard! (and yes, I see this crap enough that I made a page on it)
...
Anyways, in the interest of not dragging things out when the outcome is a forgone conclusion,
VTL Earth (not specifically the player, more of the planet; but I suppose when Wylted destroys the earth it'll destroy him too)
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Updating for the soft claims my VTL on Owen stirred, in addition to other new info.
Player Character Role/Notes
Vader Non religious Confirmable w/ 3 votes (savant, Pie, Owen… Lunatic) <<< Could be fake, but really not worth wasting time on until later rounds. I also like them catching behavioral oddities between Casey, Pie, and Mharman (#186), probably nothing, but a good sign that they're looking for behavior which doesn't quite grok.
Banana Hamas vs. Israel 14 message long role <<< This doesn't guarantee town, but pushing against it is a red flag to me. Mine was only two, but the second one was a journal entry, I suspect it's much the same for everyone else. A journal entry from Wylted could indeed be crazy long.
Whiteflame ??? ??? <<< High quality reads, no seeming artificial pushes. Cast doubt on the Banana push with the likelihood of scum roles being posted on discord thus not 14 separate messages (I know there's still a character limit, but if memory serves much less of one).
Earth Can't live without doing evil... Evil Cookie Giver third party <<< Third party, so default lynch target unless we find another. That said, I care more about fun than victory, so I'm fine with letting his evil cookies play out (not that it'll happen).
Savant Non religious ??? <<< In play, no significant thoughts.
Casey Religious Diary mostly useless. Potentially chaotic role <<< One note I will say, is their interaction with Pie doesn't feel at all staged (in summary #217), so if either flips scum, I assume the other is safe.
Mharman Non religious ??? <<< In play, no significant thoughts.
Joebob ??? ??? <<< AFK?
Austin ??? Confirmable <<< I know I've made jokes with some of you about "confirmable" roles. People either don't know what that means, and/or they just say they're confirmable DP1 to decrease the odds of being lynched.
Barney Religious Camera Toilet <<< is self, so my opinions are biased (but to play to my meta, he's obviously scum!). I did however share good information that what we voted for probably has nothing to do with what role we got (#104).
Owen Transgenders Vanilla w/ powerups <<< Fast to town read white flame. Probably nothing, but it's come up. Also regarding #218, yes, that's how OMGUS works 😁
Lunatic <<< Voted Vader after confirm condition reached, so slight distrust, but also an easy legit mistake. Also sewed distrust of Banana's PM (#48, #88).
Greyparrot carcinization Crab God bomb? <<< If memory serves, he always shares his role first thing, so hard to tell anything by it. As for the bomb joke, I don't leap to conclusions about statements like that as being serious or even misdirection instead of simple dismissal. ... Seemed to vote for Banana out of nowhere, so leaning scum for acting opportunistically.
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@Mharman
I don't trust is Barney's reads. If he's thinking of 3p why not Greyparrot? I don't fully trust GP's claim here bc a Crab God that whose character is carcinization (the process of turning species into crabs) sounds like a recruiting role (cultist) if it's 3P. Could a different townie that I wont talk about but I don't get why Barney is thinking Owen of all people is some third party. Even based on Owen's role, why not apply the logic to Vader?
As I stated of GP "Seemed to vote for Banana out of nowhere, so leaning scum for acting opportunistically."
And I was crystal clear on my reason for VTLing Owen. That I didn't have outsider knowledge that non-religious characters were common (GP being a crab GOD seems religious to me), meant Owen was a significant outlier. Also I did not accuse him of being third party. That I threw out a guess about their involvement in the same long post but on a different paragraph, doesn't mean the two things on connected.
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The core problem with Islam is a non-falsifiable one: how do we separate true Muslims from persona trolls pretending to be Muslim to degrade Islam?
Example, pedophile politicians in Iraq want to marry pre-teen girls in the name of Mohammad (who apparently wasn’t a pedo because he was too sexy… actual argument from a claimed Muslim on this site). Are they doing it for the benefit of their religion, or is it because they’re pedos?
Example, pedophile politicians in Iraq want to marry pre-teen girls in the name of Mohammad (who apparently wasn’t a pedo because he was too sexy… actual argument from a claimed Muslim on this site). Are they doing it for the benefit of their religion, or is it because they’re pedos?
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Player Character Role/Notes
Vader ??? Confirmable w/ 3 votes (savant, Pie, Owen… Lunatic) <<< Could be fake, but really not worth wasting time on until later rounds. I also like them catching behavioral oddities between Casey, Pie, and Mharman (#186), probably nothing, but a good sign that they're looking for behavior which doesn't quite grok.
Banana Hamas vs. Israel 14 message long role <<< This doesn't guarentee town, but pushing against it is a red flag to me. Mine was only two, but the second one was a journal entry, I suspect it's much the same for everyone else. A journal entry from Wylted could indeed be crazy long.
Whiteflame ??? ??? <<< High quality reads, no seeming artificial pushes. Cast doubt on the Banana push with the likelihood of scum roles being posted on discord thus not 14 separate messages (I know there's still a character limit, but if memory serves much less of one).
Earth ??? PM was a few messages long (also #174), <<< While not active, seems calm and collected.
Savant ????
Casey ??? Diary mostly useless. Potentially chaotic role <<< One note I will say, is their interaction with Pie doesn't feel at all staged (in summary #217), so if either flips scum, I assume the other is safe.
Mharman ???
Joebob ???
Austin ??? Confirmable <<< I know I've made jokes with some of you about "confirmable" roles. People either don't know what that means, and/or they just say they're confirmable DP1 to decrease the odds of being lynched.
Barney Camera Toilet <<< is self, so my opinions are biased (but to play to my meta, he's obviously scum!). I did however share good information that what we voted for probably has nothing to do with what role we got (#104).
Lunatic <<< Voted Vader after confirm condition reached, so slight distrust, but also an easy legit mistake. Also sewed distrust of Banana's PM (#48, #88).
Greyparrot carcinization Crab God bomb? <<< Null. If memory serves, he always shares his role first thing, so hard to tell anything by it. As for the bomb joke, I don't leap to conclusions about statements like that as being serious or even misdirection instead of simple dismissal. ... Seemed to vote for Banana out of nowhere, so leaning scum for acting opportunistically.
Pie ??? Has info <<< Latched onto the Banana must be scum thing, well after whiteflame's analysis of why 14 messages implied town (#141); they do however do a good job defending their doubt (#206).
Owen Transgenders Vanilla w/ powerups <<< Fast to town read white flame. Probably nothing, but it's come up. Also regarding #218, yes, that's how OMGUS works 😁 ... Actually, their claim has me sus now. As does their role (maybe I'm wrong, but I do think of Vanaillas as powerless, and other rules which power up with time as said roles instead of vanilla)
My gut says there is a third party. Wylted added people at the last minute, and this is a really big game, so third party seems like a fun way to handle the extras.
I've already mentioned it, bu
I'll add to my actual role information that mine is religious. I suspect we all are given the name Hell Diary; err, maybe scum are non-religious diary entries? *shrug* ... HOLY! I wrote the earlier part of this paragraph near the start of this round of dashboard edits, and doublechecking at the end Owen's claim slipped past me, but DAMN!
VTL Owen
Anyone else have a non-religious claim?
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@Vader
By the way, regarding “Barney literally got away with scum slipping and laid low.” if it’s the game I think it was, it was a rare time where I used inactivity as a tool (I can’t recall who my partner was, but they advised it AFTER pressure was on me, until I could be replaced for genuinely being too busy).
My main scum tell is trying too hard. Which I’ve gotten better at hiding, but is still my main scum weakness.
That said, I do independently concur that the push on Banana feels opportunistic rather than genuine (but town can want to lynch someone as a policy).
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@Vader
My girlfriend is visiting from Canada this weekend, which is contributing to a lower actively level.
Not that it overly matters DP1. I suck at DP1.
I usually focus on keeping an up to date dashboard to benefit everyone, and while I’ve read most of the posts, I am not putting the needed time in for tracking all claims and their post links (also not spotting any big ones, just spitballing).
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@Lunatic
Because I cannot fathom a townie not doing the most basic and easy thing they can do to help town by reading their OWN role pm.
Not every line of a PM is going to matter. One could read the first and last, and be good to play. If they end up really needing the defend the role justification, then more, but in the mean time I don’t see what town would gain from them reading a lengthy journey entry about some potentially boring subject.
Also, at least for DP1 not knowing if you have a power role, makes it impossible for scum to read from your actions if you have a power role. May be a suboptimal strategy, but it’s been done in plenty of games.
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@WyIted
Im generally in favor of longer day phases, but not too long, and never as a last minute change.
I consider it a bastard move when day phase end before people even have the chance to interact… at the same time, when scum counting down the clock shouldn’t suffer moved goalposts (I don’t consider this to matter dp1).
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Regarding what we voted for, I don’t think it matters…
I joined half in joke voting for Skibidi Toilet after the game was already full. And I was meaning to fake claim Camera Toilet no matter what (even if I got assigned that)… Then the PM came and no connection… I was going to do it anyways and say Wylted wrote a diary entry about watching that show, but I got a little busy with a date, and I can see now it’d be a Red Herring which would hurt towns analysis.
Sadly, my role PM has nothing to do with the masterpiece of cinematic art that Skibidi Toilet.
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@Lunatic
Anyways why is that a cause for suspicion regardless, I don’t think Vader said it would be messed up if he got to three votes twice?
The role I suspect he has, is more effective if there’s less people who voted for him.
Not that I’m trying to get tunnel vision on one possibility.
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1. Savant
2. Greyparrot. carcinization Crab God
3. lunatic
4. Pie
5. Casey
6. Mharman
7. Vader ??? Confirmable w/ 3 votes (savant, Pie, Owen… Lunatic)
8. Earth
9. Owen
10. Banana. 14 message long role
11. Joebob
12. Austin
13. Barney. Has crabs
14. Whiteflame
I distrust Lunatic right now, due to the extra Supa/Vader vote. But if town or scum the answer is too obvious to need to ask, and it’s a valid answer (we all make that kind of mistake).
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@iamanabanana
Was he giving you the entire plot of all 25 seasons of Skibidi Toilet?
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@Vader
Is it at any point in the day phase, or three votes sitting on you at the end?
If unclear, when it gets to the end it might be nice to have the exact three in you to ensure it works.
Also is it actually three, or three or more?
Either way, I am thinking we should stick with the current people who have voted you to minimize confusion (this is a request for everyone, no one who hasn’t already voted for him should vote for him… tradition be damned).
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@Greyparrot
My character is carcinizationMy role is Crab GodI do not get to know what the crab God does
If you have pubic lice (crabs), you may experience intense itching in your genital region. Pubic lice can spread to other areas with coarse body hair, including the:
- Legs
- Chest
- Armpits
- Beard or mustache
- Eyelashes or eyebrows, more commonly in children
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@FLRW
Yes, I have had a lot of Sue's.
With that attitude you’ll never be a real feminist like Justin Baldoni. It’s not enough to imply you hooked up with them, you have to also say demeaning things about their bodies; and ideally spend all your money on bots to claim that you’re the victim of DV by the hands of those sluts who wouldn’t put out for you…
…
I’m actually a little surprised none of those bots have popped up in here. On Facebook any story that mentions Ryan Reynolds in any context, is immediately flooded with them (and yes, Blake Lively refusing to undress for Justin Baldoni, has morphed into Taylor Swift committing DV against him).
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Had to say it’s a coup when it’s by the democratic majority.
And yes, hypocritically I argued it was a coup by a fertility cult in my last debate.
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@Greyparrot
While interesting, that they aired the whole answer first and then a cropped version on 60 Minutes, implies to me they were not trying to conceal anything so there’s not much substance to that lawsuit
Hell, when Trump engaged in a bizarre racist rant at a press event, I doubt any news channel aired the whole thing on any of their prime time shows. This doesn’t mean they were all being controlled by Trump, rather it just shows the normal process of editing for time.
Further, assuming that network is found to be at fault, it doesn't say much of anything about her.
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Got the first argument page in place. I cannot say it's a perfect representation as I have no feelings on the topic:
As always, feedback is appreciated; for this one particularly if there's any organizational changes (since I'm going to copy/paste this one as a base for the next argument page)
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Progress continues.
The category for logical fallacies looks good, even while there's so far only eight pages built: https://debate.miraheze.org/wiki/Category:Fallacies
One fallacy I have not seen a writeup for before is the Retro Hoc: https://debate.miraheze.org/wiki/Retro_Hoc_Propter_Ex_Futuro
Something I'm having a little fun with is renaming some of the fallacies to be more inclusive. Can't say if it'll ever make a difference, but I can try.
Since I'm using ChatGPT so much, I've added a category for the frameworks I'm building in it to then build pages with: https://debate.miraheze.org/wiki/AI_Fallacy_Framework
This week I plan to get a couple of argument pages up. I was trying to, but I needed to get some of the logical fallacies they reference in place first.
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@Skipper_Sr
Interestingly, a few days ago I wrote an article about roleplaying in debate settings. I used religious examples instead of animals, but I'd argue it still fits: https://debate.miraheze.org/wiki/Masquerade_Trolls
Not that I think you're actually trying to convince anyone you're a penguin.
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@Lemming
A lot of it is my opinions (which is not to say anything needs to stay that way). I have only pulled from old guides a little so far, and those were ones I had a hand in. While the goal is partly to keep information from these sites alive, having been debating on and moderating them for so long I believe it's safe to say much of the information is distilled inside me.
Admittedly I feel a little shame that when I made the Kritiks guide I put in a ton of research, but I did not record citations. I'll attempt to add citations when I make a Kritiks page, but it won't necessarily be the same places I originally gathered that data.
One tragedy is that Imabench wrote a trolling guide, but it was on a fansite for Debate.org someone had made and kept an iron fist control of. When without notice they deleted that site, so that and other good content was lost forever. Which is why this wiki is hosted by Miraheze, because I expect them to survive; further the format allows anyone interested to step up and be an editor.
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@Lunatic
I cannot give this game the full attention expected, but if anyone goes fully MIA consider me a backup candidate.
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The guy is all but claiming Ryan Reynolds used a time machine to mock him… of course he also denies any resemblance to how he’s being mocked, which begs the question of how he knows that’s mocking him?
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@Savant
When that phrase started, I was firmly outside the echo chambers in which it formed and not online much, and thought they were talking about literal Nazis…
I mean; yes they have it coming; but they’re so old their skulls are probably like eggshells.
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Somewhat related to my previous post, I have begun added bracketed description of a single standout point into some debate titles.
I was adding a semantic comedy debate to the previous category, which crossed over with abortion debates (https://debate.miraheze.org/wiki/Category:Abortion_Debates), and it camouflaged with the others in a way that could be misleading if someone mistook it for serious like the rest of them. So "Should Abortion be Illegal in the United States of America" became: Should Abortion Be Illegal in the USA (Rap Exception).
...
On that note, I'd say the debates section is far enough along for anyone to join in.
My next goal for that wiki is building some content for the arguments section
I am also considering commonly incorporating a few symbols to do shorthand denotations of effectiveness (➕ and ➖), and logical validity (✔️ and ✖️). Or maybe use the plus/minus for pro/con and leave the strength only testified by the logical validity. Anyone have any thoughts on that?
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@SirAnonymous
Oromagi's series of debates with ramdatt. Since he knew ramdatt wasn't going to reply, he joked around with the resolutions. There were four such debates, two of which had similar topics and therefore the same reply from oromagi. "If you want constructive information about the coronavirus, listen to Andrew Cuomo" became a debate about whether Andrew Cuomo could offer good info about construction during the coronavirus to oromagi. A debate about "WHO," as in the World Health Organization, became a debate about WHO the radio station. A debate about the now former president of Liberty U Jerry Falwell became a debate about Jerry Falwell, septic tank installer.
I've given them their own sub-category!
Plenty of other stuff will eventually end up in there too, but they really do exemplify why basic spell check is important.
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@Savant
This one basically fabricates arguments for Pro.
I just remade that one... Holy crap that was bad!
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@WyIted
Very cool, and best of luck with it!
I honestly considered doing much the same, but settled on something less time intensive for myself.
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@Savant
Unless AI gets a whole lot better, I hope summaries written wholly by it become an outlier. Still, they served well enough to get a barebones operation going... A much as I've had continued fights with it over such issues as identifying that the vote tabs are publicly accessible.
One good thing is that what it writes feels even-handed. But that is a problem if it's even handed with stuff it made up on a topic, instead of what each side covered.
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@Shila
Springfield needs more immigrants to solve their stray cat problem.
Ironically, that is literally what he accidentally argued during the presidential debate (his cat eating commits were to explain why he killed a border security bill).
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@Owen_T
I don't think he's nearly as racist as he pretends to be.
That said, at least he's plagiarizing from an effective speech writer.
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@Lemming
The closest thing is what amounts to a category at wikiversity (https://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Wikidebate), which seems useful, but so laser focused in scope that it doesn't do it for me (they host just the contentions and objections, without study of underlying fundamentals of why those work or not; such as logical fallacies).
There was a time I mistook RationalWiki for the natural place to hold most (not to say all) debate and logic information, but they're opposed to even the amount already hosted there (the Kritik guide I co-authored started as what was to be a page there, but was rejected for being too far removed from their intended scope... not to say I blame them, the mistake was on me).
And there there's of course some good resources specifically for Lincoln-Douglas debates. I like formality, but there's something about LD that feels somehow too formal for my tastes. I suspect it's much the same for most users here, who are here instead of sticking to LD debates.
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@Lemming
I modified that bit to be less downbeat, instead referencing the repeated trend regarding these sites instead of the sport as a whole.
That said, feel free to edit that page into something even better.
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@RemyBrown
Why else would Springfield swing much more for Trump than other places in Ohio?
There's hundreds of reasons for any voter to prefer Trump to Harris. That I ate some unknown percentage of ALL OF THE CATS, need not have any connection.
There's also the problem that Trump is a charismatic cult leader, proclaimed by many of his followers to be the true messiah. Cult members will believe whatever their leaders say, regardless of the evidence literally contradicting it (for which the cognitive dissonance usually only strengthens their resolve).
Do recall that Trump supporters widely shared a video of an American who ate a cat, as proof that Haitians therefore must be doing it (their logic on that still astounds me... she did have dark skin, so make of that what you will).
...
Oh and I did not just eat the cats, I did indeed chop up bits of them to make into cologne. But real studies show that 60% of the time, it works EVERY TIME!
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@RemyBrown
Do you admit some quantifiably proportion of Haitians are eating pets in Springfield?
Some percent of users named Barney ate ALL the cats in Ohio last night.
I’m not saying which percent, but it totally actually happened. I’m super serious!
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@RemyBrown
Thank you for demonstrating how to combine straw-man and slippery slope fallacies.
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@Lemming
I hope you’re right. I may have turned into a pessimist regarding this issue.
I can say for certain there’s less formal online debates now than there was about ten years ago (when I got pulled into this hobby), but for all I know the that may have been a fluke; likewise the current low activity could be the outlier.
I have nothing against the intro page being altered to be upbeat.
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As promise (and probably noticed in the announcements), that project is officially unveiled!
Debate and Argument Tactics (DAT for short) is live!
WikiHappy holidays,With the unfortunate pattern of debate sites in mind, I’ve started something of a museum for this site and any others, hosted by Miraherze (it’s a wiki host). It can serve other purposes as well, so long as they’re adjacent.I’ve only briefly run a single wiki before, and that was not an ambitious project like this. So expect suboptimal design and structures. I’m also wholly open to it being massively changed around in ways I cannot predict (the goal of any wiki is really collaboration; heck the goal of debates is often much the same).The site is named Debate and Argument Tactics, and may be found at:
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@RemyBrown
Kill yourself you fucking creep!
Don't tell fellow members to kill themselves. On a lot of sites it's an instant ban (I am applying leeway by assuming the conversation was not serious; but were I a stickler for the rules, I would be forced to issue a long term ban immediately).
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All the debates listed here (save one by request of a participant) are now backed up into the thing I'm working on.
I've set myself the goal of rejecting my perfectionism and share it next week, so stay tuned!
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