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@Vader
Going to take a break, lots of exams coming up, should be a fun game to watch though
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@Lunatic
@WyIted
Really fun game, thanks for modding.
I hadn't made an overcomplicated play as town in a while so I thought it'd be interesting to lie about what my inventions did in order to bait - e.g. I claimed my roleblocker was a strengthener so that if mafia tried to strongman the kill then they'd end up forfeiting it.
Wylted, impressive choice choosing mafia. I was hard townreading you while I was dead because I thought Savant just spewed you town with him trying to force you to claim at the end of D1, well played.
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Lowkey I just realized it's kinda unlucky that Casey docced WF because otherwise we'd have That2 and WF dead (same result) but we'd still have the lynch today.
Still should be a good position for town tho.
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Ok he's occasionally included 3P.
One thing that has me hesitating here is that Mafia Messenger is an extremely weak role.
If there's only two mafia, then the last mafia role would need to be extremely powerful.
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Trying to figure out the ratios here:
7 v 3 is lolbalancing.
7 v 2 with one 3P seems a lot more likely.
Lemme check Luna's past modded games real quick.
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@WyIted
Makes sense, yeah. Without giving too much about what the invention is, make your best judgement about when and how to use it.
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Ted Kaczynski wasn't a serial killer lol, you'd have to do some ridiculous definition twisting to get that to work. Casey's role also makes perfect sense for their character.
VTL That2User
L - 2 warning
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I sent an invention last night. Don't really see the benefit in claiming who or what, they already know and can back me up if I need to be confirmed (assuming I wasn't RBed, although I doubt mafia would use it on me when my role isn't that great by itself).
Noting the Casey/That2 CC. Exact same role can't exist bc Luna isn't a bastard mod, strongly leaning towards voting That2 right now but I don't want to get too close to hammer.
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Basically, how it works is that I send the item, Lunatic tells the receiver the name of the item and asks them whether they want to use it or not (without telling them what it does), and if they choose to use it, then they gain the listed effect.
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@ILikePie5
Because the receiver of the item doesn't know what they do. E.g. if I sent the third item to a cop, I could end up ruining their investigation, if I send the first item to someone who's protecting themselves, it could fail, etc.
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@Casey_Risk
Vader - towniest player here. No way he YOLO'ed Ted Bundy of all people just like that. Justification also makes way too much sense.
Going to need you to explain this a bit more.
I agree that he's likely character and role confirmed, but why do you think that makes him town?
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The way Whiteflame and Casey handled the character claims are extremely towny.
WF claiming his character to try and pressure Savant is just a very pro-town move, regardless of Savant's alignment, don't see why he outs his character like that under little pressure unless he genuinely believes it's best for town and is suspicious of Savant softing a similar one.
Casey immediately jumping to Savant is a bit harder to characterize, but it doesn't read as having TMI on either WF or Savant's alignment - I think scum are naturally a lot more hesitant to kinda "gotcha" people like that, it reads like they genuinely believe in Savant just being caught here even though there wasn't a hard CC.
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@Savant
Maybe he's just busy, but his lazy play style here is a possible red flag. I know he said his role might gain utility from saying what it is, but then why not say that instead of his character? Seems like giving information to scum for nothing
If I'm giving info to scum for nothing, then surely I'm town?
And it's correct for me to role claim later in the day, after some scummier players have been pressured, while still leaving time to discuss the claim. Whereas the character claim doesn't matter so much in regard to ordering.
Ik we've often town-v-towned in the past over stuff like this so I'm not going to push this, but I don't really get the reasoning for scumreading me past activity which is NAI (I'm literally more active as scum than town).
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Anyway, I'll just claim inventor. Usually I'm a lot tighter with role claiming but I haven't been particularly active and I think it's useful to claim here.
Basically, my justification is that Ed Gein made items from his victims, therefore I can send items to other players. However, only I know what they do, which is why it's mechanically correct for me to claim that before I send them, since some are negative utility, some are positive, some are neutral, etc. So if I didn't claim, that'd basically force the receiver of my item to use it blind and that's a risk.
My four items are (had to paraphrase some weird stuff but this should all be mechanically accurate):
Mary Hogan's Face Mask: Asceticizer (target will become immune to non-lethal actions for the night)
Belt of Nipples: Cop check (target can cop check another player that night but forfeits all other abilities)
Chair Covered in Human Skin: Commuter (target can't be targeted, can't target other players)
Human Skull Soup Bowl: Strengthener (target's action can't be stopped/interfered with)
So... discuss how we want these to be used.
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I think Savant is town.
I've done research into the case as part of a project for school, Myra Hindley did allegedly communicate with coded messages to the other killer both before and after the killings.
It's pretty easy to find with a quick google.
If you think he's scum, you'd have to buy that he researched an obscure fact in order to create a justification for his role, while also not bothering to defend himself with his research.
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I can claim if people want me to but my role is confirmable.
I probably will claim before the day ends tbh, I think it's one of the rare roles that gains utility once its outed though I don't really want to explain too much.
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Just took a full-length practice sat, am slightly cooked but will give this a try anyway
Wylted seems like fairly obvious town, the way he's swinging at people and quickly switching his opinions doesn't feel like he's playing to be townread - scum try to stay more consistent in their opinions and go for more narrow pushes to avoid being OMGUSed. That aside, he also feels different enough from the way he was pushing people last game that I think there's an argument to be made for meta here.
I also liked how he corrected Casey on the theme - if he's scum, I don't see the point of him starting a push on me but making sure that pressure is for the right reasons.
Casey's progression on me feels towny enough, liked how they didn't buy the themesplit but seemed to genuinely investigate the theme of my character. Not unfakable, but light lean for now.
Bullish's general aggression/idgaf attitude + complaining about pushing active people feels towny at a gut level, would have to substantiate that more though.
Savant's recent reads are actually pretty decent, and the fact I'm not scumreading him as I usually do when he's either alignment is probably a good sign.
That2 is null, maybe slight scum if I'm being somewhat uncharitable, didn't really like the random shade on Bullish although I feel if she was scum she'd make the push somewhat more convincing.
Pie's lack of activity is odd but probably NAI.
WF feels fine, never really had a good read on him.
I strongly townread Vader's claim - ik it seems pretty thin, but he was on the scum team last game with a Popular scum, and I don't buy he'd deliberately choose to claim this role when he knows it's not going to get any town credit. Basically, he's boxing in his options for fakeclaiming for very little benefit, and fundamentally that doesn't really feel like scum agenda.
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hi, sorry, didn't realize this started today.
I have a lot of theme knowledge (true crime fan + taking forensics in school)
The type of character here is broad enough that I don't think it's easy for scum to figure out role from character, so I'm fine with claiming, I'm Ed Gein.
I'll read the rest tomorrow but just checked my pings.
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@whiteflame
The game was well-balanced, a bit on the swingy side but that's the norm for rolemad games here. Looked through it a couple times - it meets the two key characteristics of good setups:
-Scum have counterplay against town coordination
-Town roles have the ability to individually affect the game (for better or worse) depending on how they're handled
So yeah, hope you mod another one sometime, this one just ended pretty quickly.
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@Vader
I don't think your reasons for following me for good. Call me salty but someone that confessed scum when the person had a scum read on them voting them is not opportunistic at all. Your logic is inherently flawed
Tbf, the results do speak for themselves. But in regard to that - it was the timing of it. The fact that you were able to be confident enough to vote Wylted (which would imply having read back the thread, at least to some extent, since the last time you posted, since it was a borderline hammer vote and that requires some confident) less than 60 seconds after you allegedly checked thread was fairly suspicious.
Even outside of that, I felt a Universal Miller didn't really make sense - how would it work with a Follower, which doesn't have a set guilty result? That, along with POE (Casey, Savant, Luna, and Pie all had unpairing interactions with Wylted) left it a pretty reasonable choice.
Regardless, ggs.
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@Vader
You caught me but your logic is wrong
You tried to hammer Wylted less than one minute after waking up from a nap lol
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@Lunatic
@ILikePie5
@That2User
@Savant
@Casey_Risk
VTL Vader
Tag. Lynch Vader, if he somehow flips town you can lynch me tomorrow but this is 100% a guilty.
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I have an result on Vader that strongly indicates he's the last scum.
I am Drolta Tzuentes. Since I aim to serve my goddess, Sekhmet, in any way I can, I am the Follower. Each night, I can target a player and find out the type of action they used, if any.
I targeted Vader and he used a killing and manipulative action.
I was townreading him initially, but the way he hopped onto Wylted near the end of the DP out of nowhere felt like opportunistic bussing, and the other advantage is that being a Miller claim, there'd be no possible way for him to explain away a positive result, if any.
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@WyIted
That's a good point about lunatic. Is he leaning on thematic analysis because it gives him subject matter to post about while he avoids the harder task of behavioral analysis.We know theme analysis is usually worthless anyway. Although to be fair whiteflame is a straight shooter it might be easy to get into his head if somebody knows the theme well
I don't think I've seen theme analysis genuinely lead to a correct lynch in quite a few games ever since the community collectively decided that this was boring and gave better fakeclaim options.
Luna not giving behavioral reads is definitely ooc for him. I just pulled up his most recent town game (excluding Debate Mafia, where he was pretty checked out in general) and there was definitely a greater effort to read people socially; I wouldn't call his theme analysis scummy, given that I can see him legitimately being excited to be able to share it, but I am looking for more especially in view of the other people I'm townreading rn.
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@WyIted
I like how pie seems to be picking up on the same stuff as me. If he is thinking like me than that makes him lean town.Who is left?
I have him leantown mostly for meta, awareness could be a decent reason as well since after briefly backreading the interaction I feel like the progression from looking at Savant, to checking a comment, to "catching" out a slip a few minutes later, reads as natural.
Thoughts on Casey/Luna?
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VTL Casey
Their posting today is mostly short snippets of commentary; normally I'd call it null, but this has been an unusually aggressive DP1 in terms of pressure and I feel decent in a lot of my townreads, so I'm comfortable staying here for now.
Forgot to mention this early, but my only experience with Castlevania is playing the original NES game, so theme is going to be fairly unfamiliar. I will say that judging from my character, I don't think the themesplit is as immediately obvious as the one that I was thinking could be the case.
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Rough readslist:
Townread:
Savant
Vader (I'll fight on this, Miller claims are usually town and even if you don't buy it the way he *handled* the claim was towny)
Townlean:
Wylted
That2 (somewhat confident on this, would be higher but I don't have experience with her)
Pie
Slight town:
Barney
Not towny:
Casey
Luna (the theme analysis is good but it feels like a substitute for more substantial behavioral reads which I know town!Luna is capable of making, want to see more)
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Barney has exactly one towny post and it's:
Given that mafia wins by killing the most intelligent/active people, I really like where this is going.I know I've made statements to this effect before, but I really think a good KPI to inform lynches would simply be "anti-town." This would be a mix of factors such as inactivity, lying, stupidity, and in general behaving as a bastard.And yes, by this metric I would already be on the list for my DP1 fluff posts (just not next on the chopping block, since check-ins which don't advance the game are still check-ins for activity)..
The lack of self-awareness in admitting he's not playing particularly townily doesn't feel like it comes from scum.
Other than that, his posts have felt very fluffy, he's posting a lot but also I really didn't have any impression of his posts until I specifically reread him in isolation.
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Pie catching that is somewhat towny, mostly off meta - as scum I don't think he's ever pushed these kind of perspective slips, while he does it habitually as town. The actual reasoning itself is meh, it's pushing off an inconsistency in a way that could come from either alignment.
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I don't really see the scum slip in what's Savant's saying; the way I interpreted it was that he found this behavior NAI in this particular instance because noobs tend to lurk regardless of alignment; noting something as not being scum indicative is distinct from calling that behavior town.
His response to it was very towny - scum!Savant doesn't handle pressure well, and the way he shifted questioning to Pie feels very much like legitimately annoyed town. That's aside from the role soft, which I'll buy for now
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Will catch up more thoroughly tomorrow, just got buried in coursework
On a quick skim, That2 seems towny, response to pressure reads well.
Wylted feels like he's in town meta with aggression, but I haven't seen him as scum in a while.
I think Savant not knowing about That2's past experience is probs a slight townslip, if he was in scum chat with one of the more experienced players they probably would have informed him. Not a strong read, he could have just posted without knowing but him doubling down on it feels real.
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Hi all, hope we all have a fun game.
Vader's claim is very likely town - early Miller claims usually are, if only because it's extremely risky because they can be outed later on in the game if it turns out there isn't a cop. Technically the scum team could have asked about whether a Cop or Miller exists in the game, but that feels like a questionable strategy at best.
The way he was eager to claim and didn't pay much attention to his justification/paraphrasing as well also makes it lean towards being real, rather than a planned fakeclaim.
Luna and Pie lean town slightly.
My character is female.
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I can pull up the other votecounts later if anyone’s curious
Here’s the votecount for the finals:
Earth: WF, Owen, Bullish, Pie, Barney, Savant, Luna
WF: Earth, Wylted, Casey
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N1:
Mafia vanillaizes Luna
WF tailors Pie
Owen rolecops Wylted
Luna gives 3 votes to Earth
Vader receives and changes the following first match arrangement to the second one:
1. Owen - Savant
2. WF - Earth
3. Casey - Bullish
4. Wylted – Lunatic
1. Wylted – Luna
2. Earth – Savant
3. WF – Owen
4. Casey – Bullish
D2:
Bullish hides Casey vs Bullish results
N2:
Mafia NKs Lunatic
WF tailors WF
D3:
Earth checks WF vs Owen
Earth checks Casey vs Bullish
N3:
WF tailors WF
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MAFIA WINS
Characters/Roles:
MAFIA:
Whiteflame - You are Faked Evidence! This might just be the worst part of competitive debate. Whether it’s exaggerating a statistic, swapping one source for another, or even just outright lying, I’ve seen countless teams fake evidence just to try and win. Of course, it’s only a good strategy if you can get away with it...
Because faked evidence uses misinformation as a winning strategy, you are the Tailor! Each night, choose a player (living or dead). For the purposes of investigations, they will show as the opposite alignment that they actually are. Only one player can be tailored at a time (i.e. tailoring a new player will make the previous target investigate normally).
You win with the mafia.
Bullish - You are Card Clipping! In competitive debate, debaters typically send a written copy of their speech to their opponents (and judge) when they begin reading it, in order to show that their evidence is legitimate. Unfortunately, some unscrupulous debaters put additional arguments into their speech document that they don’t actually read out loud, in order to trick the judge into thinking they read more arguments than they actually did. This practice is known as “card clipping”, and is incredibly difficult to catch in a fast-paced round.
Because card clipping obscures your true argumentation ability, you are the 1-shot Vote Hider! Once per game, choose a match. The votes of all players will be obscured if the votes of that match are revealed. Note that you must choose to do this BEFORE the match ends.
You win with the mafia.
Owen - You are Time Stealing! Time stealing is the practice of deliberately stalling a match through various tactics in order to gain additional time to research and rebut your opponent’s arguments. These tactics include taking a phone call, going to the bathroom, arguing over technicalities in the rulebook, and asking your opponent to provide their sources one by one.
Because time stealing gives you extra time to check your notes to formulate a better argument and reply, and stalls out the round, you are the Rolecop-Treestump. Each night, choose a player. You will receive their full role PM at the end of the night. In addition, if you ever die, you will continue to be able to talk in thread for the rest of the day.
You win with the mafia.
(Factional mechanics):
Factional information: You are informed that there exists at least one role in the game capable of checking the composition of votes. You are informed that there exists at least one role in the game capable of finding the alignment of dead players.
The following characters do not exist in the game:
-Resolution
-Turn
-Link
-Affirmative/Negative
-Counterplan
-Theory
-Cross-Examination
-Spreading
-Turn
-Link
-Affirmative/Negative
-Counterplan
-Theory
-Cross-Examination
-Spreading
-Paraphrasing
The following roles, or ones very similar, do not exist in the game:
-Sensor
-Sensor
-Communicative roles
-Blocking/Interference Roles
-Blocking/Interference Roles
Factional ability: Disconnecting an Unattended Laptop’s Charger– One night per game, choose a player. If you successfully guess their character, then they will be turned into a vanilla townie, which will take effect at the end of the night (i.e. after all other actions are processed). They will be informed of this.
TOWN:
Lunatic - You are Weighing! Weighing is a debate strategy where you argue why your impacts (i.e. the expected outcome of your plan) is more convincing than your opponent – generally on one of three metrics; magnitude (how major your impacts are); probability (how likely your impacts are); and timeframe (how soon your impacts happen).
As such, because weighing uses three different metrics as part of a winning strategy, you are the town JOAT. Each night, you can use one of the following abilities. Because weighing usually prioritizes one type of metric over another, the multiple values in slashes indicate the effect if used on N1, N2, and N3 respectively.
-Magnitude: Increase a single player’s voting power by 3/2/1 votes for the next day. They will not be informed of this. This will not take effect if used on a mafia member.
-Probability: Choose a player. If that player would otherwise be eliminated the next day, there is a 100/67/33% chance the result will be reversed.
-Timeframe: Choose two players. You will investigate them the night after to see if they are the same alignment or not (e.g. if you use this N1, you will receive a result N2).
You win when the last player alive is town.
Savant - You are Disclosure! Disclosure is a debate practice in which a team makes their arguments publicly available before the round. The idea of this is to promote a norm where teams try to focus on running the best possible arguments in round, rather than running sketchy arguments solely for surprise value. Although disclosure is risky, judges typically look positively on it, potentially making the trade-off worth it.
Because you disclose arguments at significant risk to yourself, you are the Vote Oracle. If you ever die, the players voting on your wagon will immediately be revealed.
You win when the last player alive is town.
Earth - You are the Ballot! The ballot is the final vote that a judge submits every round. It contains the vote result, as well as an RfD (reason for decision). Generally, ballots are non-anonymous, meaning that anyone spectating the tournament can view them.
Because you are a public vote, you are the 2-shot Vote Revealer. Twice per game, at any point during the day or night, you may choose a completed match and view the exact composition of players who voted each side.
You win when the last player alive is town.
Vader/Barney - You are Solvency! Solvency is a fundamental concept in debate that relates to how well a side’s proposal (or plan) solves a known problem in the world. Almost all arguments in debate fundamentally relate to proving your own solvency and refuting your opponent’s solvency.
Because solvency dictates the overarching strategy of the round, you are the Strategist. At the end of D1, the list of pairings will be released. You may swap two players, as well as dictate the ordering of the matches.
You win when the last player alive is town.
Wylted - You are Topicality! Topicality is a concept used in debate that relates to whether a side’s proposal is relevant to the topic. Topicality is incredibly useful because if you prove your opponent’s arguments are irrelevant, it doesn’t matter how well-sourced and convincing they are.
Just like how topicality dictates whether an argument is even relevant to the topic, you have the ability to find out whether town’s past play is relevant to its win condition (eliminating the mafia). Thus, you are the 2-shot Gravedigger. Twice per game, at any point during the day or night, you may choose a dead player and find our their alignment, role name, and character name. (You will not receive their full role PM.)
You win when the last player alive is town.
Casey - You are Kritiks! Kritiks are a type of debate argument which aim to fundamentally challenge assumptions about the topic. For example, if your opponent argues that their plan improves the economy, you could Kritik their plan by arguing that capitalism is inherently a flawed system.
Kritiks are a double-edged strategy, but when used successfully, they literally take away the very ground of your opponent’s argument, leaving the judge with no room to vote them. As such, you are the Vote Thief. Each night, you may steal someone’s vote (living or dead) and use it for yourself the next day. They will not be informed their vote was stolen.
You win when the last player alive is town.
Pie - You are the Framework! Frameworks are a type of debate argument which aims to dictate by what metric the round ought to be judged. For example, one simple framework is utilitarianism – i.e, whichever side does more good than harm, on balance, is superior.
A good framework can swing a round – if you convince the judge that your framework should be accepted, then that gives you room to invalidate your opponent’s arguments on the basis of their value, rather than their factual accuracy.
Because of this, you are the D2+ Doublevoter. Starting from Day 2, you have one more vote than normal.
You win when the last player alive is town.
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Earth was eliminated.
He was town, mafia wins.
Endgame up when I get home - the scum team were Owen, Bullish, and WF.
A note on balance: 3 v 7 and flipless seems rough for town, but I think it was balanced overall in view of two key straregies:
-If town collectively agrees to set aside their individual reads and vote as a block, then scum can't manipulate the result.
-All town needs to win is to correctly find two players as town by the end of the second DP.
Town largely lost this because there wasn't enough cohesion in the day phase. Still pretty close though, I think if Earth had been more transparent about how he used his role, town might have had a chance.
Hope everyone had fun, I'll probably keep my setups more traditional in the future.
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@whiteflame
/in
Congrats on designing your first game!
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@WyIted
Bro I posted a goodbye thread. That means goodbye. Putting my vote in in a minute based entirely on what a faintly recall from DP1 and DP2.
Sorry, I don't check the other sections of the forum very often. Thanks for putting your vote in, as well as your contributions to the site over the years.
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Setup and Rules:
Match Order:
Today's matches are:
1. Earth - Whiteflame
Match Mechanics:
During the match, all living players may talk freely. Votes must be submitted privately - no in-thread votes will be counted. A match is decided by whoever has more votes - this person will unavoidably die.
The match will last 48 hours. Until the deadline, you may change your vote as many times as you wish. If you do not anticipate changing your vote, you can cast a FINAL vote, which cannot be changed. If enough players submit a FINAL vote to guarantee the result of the match, it will end early.
Living Players:
1. Earth
2. Whiteflame
Deadline:
Match 1 will end 48 hours from the first player post in the thread. If at least one living player requests it, I may extend it by up to 24 hours at my discretion.
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@Barney
@Vader
@whiteflame
And yes, the game is still going.
Please close thread, thanks
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Bullish was eliminated.
Submit night actions if applicable within 24 hours. If both living players agree to fast night, I will start the next day phase early.
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Barney was eliminated.
The match Bullish vs Whiteflame has begun, and will end 48 hours from the next player post.
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Each match lasts 48 hours (not 24 hours), apologies for the typo.
Match 1 ends about 19 hours from this post.
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@ILikePie5
@Savant
@WyIted
@Casey_Risk
@Owen_T
It's the final four...
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Lunatic was killed last night. As the nominated player, Barney (replacing in for Vader) will take his spot in the bracket.
Setup and Rules:
Match Order:
Today's matches are:
1. Barney - Earth
2. Whiteflame - Bullish
Match Mechanics:
The matches will commence in the order listed in the OP. During the match, all living players may talk freely. Votes must be submitted privately - no in-thread votes will be counted. A match is decided by whoever has more votes - they will unavoidably die (and may still vote, but not talk).
Each match will last 24 hours. Until the deadline, you may change your vote as many times as you wish. If you do not anticipate changing your vote, you can cast a FINAL vote, which cannot be changed. If enough players submit a FINAL vote to guarantee the result of the match, it will end early.
Living Players:
1. Barney
2. Earth
3. Whiteflame
4. Bullish
Deadline:
Match 1 will end 48 hours from the first player post in the thread.
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