We ought to do and/or not do something(s).
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After 1 vote and with 2 points ahead, the winner is...
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- 3
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I'm defining "ought" in the same way it's usually defined in the "is-ought gap".
In other words: a non-descriptive, prescriptive obligation to do something(s).
For PRO to win the debate, they need only demonstrate that the resolution is *probably* (>50% likely) true.
For CON to win the debate, they need only demonstrate that the resolution is not probably true (≤50% likely).
I don't love that Pro won this late with a round Con couldn't respond to, but tech issues happen, and I'm already penalizing Pro for forfeiting the second round with a conduct point.
The reason Pro wins this in my opinion is that they were able to reaffirm their case without adding to it, mainly by showing how Con had made some assumptions that weren't very well supported by what Pro said. For example, much of Con's case relied on the premise that "Under moral subjectivism, every obligation is descriptive because it describes peoples' moral attitudes." But that's not subjective morality, or at least the version of subjective morality Pro is advocating; they're saying that ought statements do exist to the extent that they match someone's value (i.e. if I want to achieve well-being, I ought to do something that will achieve that). I do think Con had an opportunity to cast a wider net in responding to Pro's case if they weren't sure whether or not Pro was advocating descriptive ethics—and if they wanted to argue that subjective morality must be descriptive and cannot be prescriptive, they could have fleshed that out with more than a single sentence and even had an extra round to do so. There are also secondary points I haven't addressed here, but the debate really comes down to Pro not advocating descriptive ethics.
Given what Con says is allowed at the end, I don't think this is a final-round blitzkrieg, even if I would have liked more rounds to settle the dispute. Pro cites the source Con provides, and nothing at the end seems to come out of nowhere. It's mostly clarifying how Pro's first round case doesn't fall into the box Con puts it in.
Yeah, I think you did fine here for going against someone at the top of the leaderboard. Just with the format and Novice being unable to post in the second round, there wasn't much opportunity for a back-and-forth.
Thanks for the vote, I believe I meant to refer to this ("Ethical subjectivism stands in opposition to moral realism, which claims that moral propositions refer to objective facts, independent of human opinion;") in
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethical_subjectivism
The problem being that, if moral prepositions don't refer to objective facts independent of human opinion, they must be descriptive (describing something about human opinion that is not independent of it).
But I definitely should have dedicated more of my arguments to establishing that. I am much more accustomed to informal debates where it's virtually guaranteed that I can later fill in these sorts of gaps when necessary.
I would probably have used Novice's forfeiture as an opportunity to further establish arguments, but I genuinely thought he was too busy to give an argument in R2. I thought it would be unfair to have the opportunity to essentially get 10k more characters, and I underestimated how big the gaps that I left in my argument are.
This is debate is way too advanced for me.
That's right, "ought" is used differently colloquially vs in this context.
I believe I am essentially arguing against moral objectivism (or at least something very close to that, maybe there's a caveat I'm missing).
I believe that most people accept the existence of some kind of ought as I'm defining it, I believe I am arguing against the majority view here.
Saying 'people ought do X,
'Is descriptive though, isn't it?
As people, would have to be defined.
But I 'think, I get that you're trying to avoid,
A person who values kindness, ought be kind and encourage others to be kind.
A person who values pain, ought be in pain and encourage others to be pain.
Maybe what confused me is the is-ought gap,
You're 'not arguing that one can conclude what something ought do from what it is.
You're arguing that people don't have a singular ought?
Arguing against Moral Objectivism, such as people should be kind, or people should be evil?
That there is nothing ought-ing them to be either?
How does something 'ought though?
If something has a Creator, said Creator often has an expectation, whether as some believe God having some expectation for humans,
Or a human who designs a wood axe, it 'ought be used for wood, not human skulls.
. . .
But I imagine one would still expect that people ought to 'something,
Though, I suppose something just 'does, if it 'is something.
One doesn't say that fire has a moral obligation to burn stuff, it just does.
In casual language though, people might toss some wood into a fire, and say that ought burn nicely. But there's probably some specific philosophy terminology that is meant by ought.
I'm not sure what the best colloquial way to explain it is, I've tried and failed to explain it to many people before. But I'll give it my best shot.
I mean to omit definitions pertaining to things like moral subjectivism. I mean to refer to things that we "genuinely" ought to do, not something like "well I define what's ethical as what maximizes pleasure and minimizes suffering" or anything like that. It has to involve some "genuinely" good or bad thing, it can't just be some arbitrary aspect of reality that we have no reason to believe we actually genuinely ought to follow/maximize/minimize/etc.
What is,
"A non-descriptive, prescriptive obligation to do something"?