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@Grugore
I will believe what I believe is believable and not what isn't clearly believable.That's OK. You believe whatever you want.
There will be no excuse on Judgment Day. See you there.
Oh, please, make up your mind, either my sins have been forgiven via a most violent sacrifice or they haven't. If they haven't, then someone was brutally murdered and died in vain.
Now, to the question:
The god of the Hebrews Confessed that he was jealous of other gods. If there were no other gods what had he to be jealous of? Moses was told strictly not to make images of other gods or to worship any other god, if there are no other gods how could anyone make an image of other gods?
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@Tradesecret
There is a very good reason you won't go into [of words] with me.
I have explained why I won’t do this with you;you don’t need to give me YOUR opinion why I won’t go into semantics: here itis again,
Post 10 above:”You Seem to believe words to mean whatever you decide to define them to mean on any given day and situation. But it is well established fact the “angle” simply means messenger, as in god sent messengers to Jesus instead of turning up himself to console his only son on the eve of his death sentence”.
It is because you don't know Hebrew nor Greek.
Stop it. Your assuming I haven’t read the hebrew, or the Geek or the Aramaic and Sumerian, translations. You don't have a clue what i have reda. so climb down of you pompous horse and start explaining why you believe there is only one single god what the bible and god himself contradicts YOU!
You rip verses out context and mangle the language and the story of the bible to make it fit something you like.
No! Definitely not! What I have done is produced evidence from the bible itself that CLEARLY states that there was more than one god. There are more verses to add to those already pointed out in post 10 above.
My views at least have the backing of recognised academics.
And I , if it is to be believed ,have the “backing “ of the bible itself. get used to it and Get over it. There is no denying, there was more than one god and they are even given names by the bible.
You don't mind quoting other books apart from the bible –
If these “books” from religious scholars and academic theologians, historical archaeologist and others support what I Have to say then of course I would introduce them. But it is rarely I have to do that. You see, as explained to you many times now, I am simply highlighting things from the bible for you to explain away, and not for me to explain away.
The Bible clearly teaches there is ONE GOD.
No it doesn’t. stop bare faced lying.The bible clear SHOWS with testimony from one god that there are/were many gods in ancient times. I have put the evidence up there for anyone to see. FROM THE BIBLE!
You have yet to demonstrate it teaches more than one GOD with a capital G.
Semantic AGAIN! go away if that is all you have.
But God with a capital G verses god with a little g is pretty significant.
To you maybe. Not a single Biblical scholar that I have readmake that silly distinction. But you fill your boots, it is an opinion, your opinion and you scraping the barrel for a get out. I am going by the scripture what better evidence can I offer than the words of a god himself.
You really have yet to give ANY evidence that the Bible teaches there is more than one GOD.
Well see the my opening post( that’ll be post 1 toyou) there is verbatim evidence there if these scriptures are to be believed
But you see the bible even tells us that those outside of the Hebrew/Israelite family recognised multiple gods
"Woe Unto us! who shall deliver us out of the hand of these mighty Gods? these are the Gods that smote the Egyptians with all the plagues in the wilderness" (1 Sam. 4:8).
Nebuchadnezzar acknowledged to Daniel that "your God is a God of gods, and a Lord of kings,..." (Dan. 2:47).
Hespoke of Daniel as one "in whom is the spirit of the holy gods" and told Daniel "I know that the spirit of the holy gods isin thee" (Dan. 4:8-9, 18)
Hisqueen also spoke of Daniel as one "in whom is the spirit of the holy gods" and said that he had "wisdom like the wisdom of the gods" (Dan. 5:11).
If you opinion is worth anything -then perhaps you might give some evidence. Until then, it is merely an assertion.
The bible makes it clear there is/way more than one god and they had families of gods.
I notice you have completely swerved my question AGAIN! here you go, here’s another chance to ignore it.
The god of the Hebrews Confessed that he was jealous of other gods. If there were no other gods what had he to be jealous of? Moses was told strictly not to make images of other gods or to worship any other god, if there are no other gods how could anyone make an image of other gods?
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@Castin
Working within the framework of the story,
Were the secret disciples only revealing the script to Jesus a scene at a time?
It appears that Jesus Didn’t expect things to get this far. It was only later in his mission that he seemed to realize it had failed and his number was up, he had been exposed?
One Disciple though; Judas a cut throat Zealot assassin and probably his father Simon( Peter rock) had realized the mission to expel the Romans stood absolutely no chance and decided rather than be arrested as an enemy of Rome, he/they would save his own thieving skin.
Reassuring words said by the mysterious messenger in the garden may have calmed and soothed Jesus’nerves and bleeding skin for the time being. He was probably told that this was all part the script and to go through the motions that would come to nothing and he would be released with 24 hours “as it is written”?
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@Grugore
So, why are you arguing about someone you don't even believe in?
Show me where I have said I do not believe. You are jumping the gun. And you are now boring me rigid simply because you do not understand what discussion actually consists of. How old are you?
Did you not read my post above. This is a forum to discuss religion. I am discussing religion. Do you not understand this extremely simply concept of discussion. I, or you put something up there and then we discuss it.
I believe there were more than one god. The bible actually say so and many times. AND god himself also recognizes that there are other gods. I didn't say I didn't believe in god.gods. GET YOUR FACT RIGHT
Isn't that like arguing about the Easter Bunny?
Some would say that, oh you did didn't you.
I provide evidence to refute your augment.
No you haven't. Is all you have done is say something which is irrelevant to the thread and doesn't prove there is only one god.. telling me god made dead people alive again is not addressing the subject. What you have wrote is not proof that there is only one god. Just because you say something , it doesn't make it tue or proof.
Not my fault that you ignore it.
I didn't ignore it you fool. I responded to it.
Now go away and grow up OR come back with some ACTUAL evidence that there is, CONTRARY to what the the bible CLEARLY states, only one god.
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@Grugore
What I'm saying is that you lack understanding.
Opinion
There are plenty of Bible scholars who would agree with me.
So. there are many i know agree with me.
People who have devoted their entire life to studying Scripture.
So
Why should I listen to you?
You don't have to. Go away.
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@Grugore
Are you a Christian?
Listen. I don't know if you have read the rules. But this thread is concerning what the title suggests:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>One God? It is simply Not True<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
It isn't an invite for you to interrogate me on my personal beliefs. If you have a case to make against, then make it.
If you're not a Christian, you are arguing about something you don't even believe in.
Many of the debates and discussions and arguments in this sub-forum on religion are by people who are atheist who are usually asking theist to explain the scriptures, god and Jesus and sometime to justify their beliefs. And they are arguing for and or against. It would hardly be a debate or a discussion or a argument if everyone agreed on every aspect of the bible , god and Jesus , now would it? you silly little man.
This is not a thread about raising the dead. If you want to discuss that subject with me then either read my thread on the subject here>>>>>>>>>>>https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/416 <<<<<< and comment
or start one of your own on the subject. I am easy
i think you have mistakenly believed that this is a religious forum for the religious only. Let me tell you, IT ISN'T! It is a place to discuss, argue and debate R-E-L-I-G-I-O-N not matter who you are or what you believe in.
I am not religious. I was christened at birth I am not a practicing christian but I have studied religion for over 40 years. So do not make the mistake of believing I know nothing of the scriptures.
So. You have attempted to make and argument for one god, with the usual christian dogmatic matra of one in three. Now prove it.
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@Grugore
It is painfully obvious that you have no clue what you're talking about.
Then it is painfully obvious that you should just ignore what it is I have to write about and keep you hooter out of my topics.
Or are you simply going to say those verses are incorrect and or false.
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@Grugore
There is also the fact that Jesus forgave sins and raised the dead.
No Jesus did not raise anyone who had died.
Finally, the tomb of Jesus is empty.
So.
The Alpha and Omega. The beginning and the end.
You are as silly as those temple priest Jesus spoke about who couldn't understand the signs.
Ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky and of the earth; but how is it that ye do not discern this time? Luke 12:56
I would explain this to you but I am not about to waste my time on a boring, nauseating tit like you.
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It means that those who do not abide in God abide in death, because everything they have faith in will be wiped away by time.
I thought Jesus had covered all that for us. So it isn't true that he died to save us from everlasting death and I won't rise on the given day and I won't be with him in paradise - wherever you believe that to be - and I am going to be simply "washed away with the tide like the sandcastles you are. Lives of vapour, smoke".
I find it all very confusing. How is anyone supposed to keep up with all these contradictions?
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I believe God because I know that The Ultimate Reality
I do not think you have made a post that does not include the words "The Ultimate Reality". You are like a chipped record. repeating this mantra over and over again doesn't make it true.
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I do not know. I merely have reasonable expectations based on
Then you seem to be trying to goad an argument. One minute you say they a negative cannot be proven then ask for proof. And now you suggest it is only "reasonable expectation" that you know that no evidence for the existence of a god will be forthcoming.
You are goading, there can be no other explanation for it.
Except that you just did.
Not really. Had I pitched it to YOU as a discussion or debate I would have had to add my reasons for my beliefs, which as I have already stated, would only be described as invalid argumentation, which I know wouldn't get me too far. My beliefs - unfortunately - could only be shared with the like minded... going by my "past experience."
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But you just slipped out of the shower one day and BANG! you "got it"?I don't believe what I do because I read some things. There are plenty who study their whole lives and never get it.
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What do you mean by that. And why will I be washed away?In time, all of you will be washed away with the tide like the sandcastles you are. Lives of vapour, smoke.
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@janesix
True, there really is no way to tell. And you were right, the actual constellations do overlap in some places.
I thought we were talking "Ages", not constellations. There are only 12 houses but there are 88 constellations. So which are you talking about?
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@RationalMadman
then it's likely Jesus was conned
You may be onto something there RM. I am beginning to believe Jesus and possibly John the Baptist were bred for purpose. To purposefully enact the so called prophecies of Old Testament to the letter. A bit like the passion plays that are held today in schools around the world enacting the "immaculate conception" and birth of Jesus in a stable- a house - or cave; the scriptures cannot make its mind up about which it was
I believe they may have both been "conned" into believing that the roles they played in the plot was given to them by god. In other words, they were puppets.
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@secularmerlin
I don't expect that there is but one never knows.
You do. didn't you state clearly that "one cannot prove a negative".
Conclusive physical evidence would be a good place to start.
Again, you know there isn't any coming in the respect of there being any god as a believer understands what a god to be.
I happen to believe these things/beings were here. I have no proof other that what someone like you would probably call 'logical fallacy' that is to say invalid argumentation. So I wouldn't bother even pitching such an hypothesis, to someone such as yourself.
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Until you can demonstrate a claim I Have no reason to accept it.
Demonstrate? Don’t you mean prove? Orare those words interchangeable to you?
To be clear it is impossible to prove a negative and my claim is not that there is no god(s) but only that there is no sufficient evidence for the existence of any god(s) that has been presented to me.
So you’re agnostic then: a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God.
If it is the case that you are indeed agnostic, then there is nothing and will never be anything to convince you of the existence of gods? Yes or no?
I am not asking for proof so much as trying to understand why someone would accept something for which they have no proof.
But you are asking for proof, in the FULL knowledge that none is coming.
why someone would accept something for which they have no proof.
It is a fair question, but you know the answer to that too, don't you.
You are just creating a merry - go - round in the knowledge and by your own conviction that "one cannot prove a negative".
I believe it is better to challenge the scriptures and have the theist explain these anomalous, enigmatic and puzzling text rather than the head on requests for a believer to prove that there is a god. It is more kinder too.
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@Tradesecret
Thanks for the concession.
Oh please stop it and get over yourself. I have conceded nothing. You lost an argument. Get over it.
Or did you miss this>
"I can have a dialogue with my three year old granddaughter about very few and limited things because she is ignorant of thousands of things".
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@Tradesecret
the opening account of Genesis is talking about the Trinity.
Opinion. AGAIN let’s see some actual evidence from you just for once. Or is it simply your own belief.
And I do take the view that the Ancient Hebrews understood God as one but understood God as broader than just one.
What “view” you takeor don’t take, is neither here nor there. It is clear beyond doubt that there is more than one single god being referred to in these scriptures, if these scriptures are to be taken at face value. Itis a fact that every ancient civilisation recognised that other gods existed. Even the god of gods recognized this fact as did the sons of Gods who came to earth and raped the daughters of mankind.
Even the Ancient Hebrew God recognised this to be so. He actually commands
1. “I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before Me.
So here this god himself recognises other gods and wants his particular chosen people not to put any of these other gods above him. He goes on to say he is jealous, what has he to be jealous of if no other gods exist?
The jewish list of commandments simply says:
“You shall not recognize the gods of others in My presence".(Sh’mot 20:1-5).
So again you see, this god, the god of the Hebrews is indeed recognising other gods.
And there is this deafening passage that makes it very plain and clear:
Psalm 82
God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.....
I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
Pleased, deny the fact until the blood runs from your ears but it is a fact that you cannot change as much as you try.
Certainly, when Moses Spoke to God in the burning bush, God was the "angel of the Lord".
Well I am not going into the semantics of words again with you. You seem to believe words to mean whatever you decide to define them to mean on any given day and situation. But it is well established fact the “angle” simply means messenger, as in god sent messengers to Jesus instead of turning up himself to console his only son on the eve of his death sentence.
Stop trying to rewrite what it is that is clearly written, These were ancients, they knew what they were writing about, they witnessed it all.
Your insistence on a one god is pathetic and futile in the face of all the evidence from around the world.
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And his payers and plea’s went unheard and ignored and unanswered by his “father”. He lost his faith and wanted no part of what can only be seen a pre-planned moronic plot.
Luke 22:41-42 New King James Version (NKJV)
41 And He was withdrawn from them about a stone’s throw, and He knelt down and prayed, 42 saying, “Father, if it is Your Will, take this cup away from Me; nevertheless not My will, but Yours, be done.”
Matthew tells us of Jesus making his request of the Father twice: "Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, 'My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken away from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will'"(Matthew 26:39) and "He went away a second time and prayed, 'My Father, if it is not possible for this cup to be taken away unless I drink it, may your will be done'" (Matt. 26:42).
This man was obviously absolutely terrified of what he was about to face we have to ask, did he bargained for this, did he not understand the scripture or the script. Did he not know that all of this mission was leading up to a sacrifice, his own sacrifice?
We can only conclude that he didn’t have a clue that this was how it was all supposed to end.
Mark attempts to put positive spin his prayer "'Abba, Father,' he said, 'everything is possible for you. Take this cup from me. Yet not what I will, but what you will"(Mark 14:36).
But the non response and total silence from his “father” are the same: a complete and utter refusal to even recognise the absolute peril his “only son” was in.
It seems only his so called “father” could excuse him of this savage and brutal commitment. Had this Jewish mission been intended to go this far; for this young man to be “scourged& nailed to beams of wood, & speared in the ribs.
If this was the “will of the father” then who would want such a savage indifferent being for a father? And it shouldn’t go unnoticed that not only did god, the “father” ignore and refused to answer the pleadings and prayers of this poor young man but was so indifferent to his ONLY SON’s pleading and begging to be released from this contract that he couldn’t be bothered to show up himself to comfort his only son who had “sweated blood” out of sheer fear, but sent a messenger to say ‘there there, have faith, everything will be alright in three days time.
Like all of these gospels, this story simply does not make a single piece of sense.
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@Plisken
Can you expand on that for me, please I am not clear on what it it that you are actually saying.I do not recall any substantiated claims as referenced in the bible about the existence of gods.
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@secularmerlin
The bible is the claim not the evidence.
I agree this is why I can never understand that when theist have painted themselves into a corner they always turn to the bible as if it somehow is evidence for their claims. Silly aren't they? Because as you quite correctly say, "The bible is the claim not the evidence".
It doesn't matter if the bible claims there is one god or five or fifty none has been demonstrated.
Not sure that is correct. There are many references to there being more that one god, this cannot be refuted.
The god of the Hebrews confessed that he was jealous of other gods. If there were no other gods what had he to be jealous of? Moses was told strictly not to make images of other gods or to worship any other god, if there are no other gods how could anyone make an image of other gods?
"Thou shalt not have any other god but me " leaps to mind.
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@Castin
Well Judaism did begin as a henotheistic religion.
Yes, they certainly did recognise other gods. There is no getting away from it. And it was Moses who introduced the idea of monotheism to these wondering Hebrews. When they got sick of Moses giving orders and going awol for days on end while they starved and caught diseases they decided to go back to the god they knew and trusted; Ra, the god of the Egyptians and this is why they created an image of Bull/golden calf, the house Taurus. Obviously Moses had another god in mind but which one? .
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You're right; my mistake. Is there a significant difference between "of heaven" and "in heaven"?
Indeed there is. OF heaven would be exactly what it says and of course if indeed there was also a commandment not to make images OF heaven then this commandment was also broken.
"OF heaven" as you may appreciate would be a map of the stars/the planets, the Moon and the Sun and the movement of the planets etc, i.e the 'heavenly bodies' that were IN heaven. And of course the twelve houses of the Zodiac which the temple in Jerusalem was adorned .
Any close reading of the scriptures by any novice wouldn't or shouldn't fail to recognise the references to Astronomy and indeed Astrology. Jesus himself mocked the false priests for not understanding what it was they were looking at in the Temple itself. These puppet priests were not fully trained Priests and didn't have the Knowledge of how to interpret what it was they were looking at. But Jesus did.
You see,they along with the disciples hadn't been taught, "the mysteries of heaven".
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@Mopac
The lesson here is to keep it real, not live in fantasy land, which is destructive to yourself, society, and even your children.
Choke cough, splutter splutter cough choke choke, splutter choke splutter cough. Give me ten minutes to clean up my keyboard and monitor.
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@Mopac
Now you can accuse me of not listening, [ to the stone cold facts that you have produced and highlighted] and you'd be right because I just ignored everything you said ....
Yes I know you did. You are without ears to hear, i'm afraid. My boxed brackets above.
Ok to reiterate.
None of what you have produced above shows me where there are exceptions to the rule as you insist there is. You have simply showed me one persons opinion, a 21st century sculptor & Artist opinion (of all people), who has a vested interest to say what he has. The verses you have produced only reiterate god's command not to make images or bow down to them & other gods.
And the punishment making "graven images" is violent in the extreme for doing so. Read all of the is commandment and see what a vile jealous god it is that you seem to revere. Look for yourself what happens to anyone who ever breaks this commandment :
20:4 “You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below.5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation .....
Poor little innocent children didn't stand a chance , did they?
I didn't call Moses stupid , I said moses would have been stupid to defy the commands of his god, as contradictory as they are.
The facts
You haven't explained why god told Moses NOT to make "Anything Graven" and then told him to make a staff with a graven image of a healing Serpent entwined around it?
The truth.
There are absolutely no biblical exceptions to the making of graven images.
Fact
You have failed to produce a single piece of evidence that supports a single one your claims.
Advice.
Start with a clean slate and read the scriptures as a history. You will discover that there is a lot more to these scriptures than your teachers will ever want you to know.
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@Mopac
Your totally iconoclastic interpretation is wrong,
Yes that is all you have to say and have to fall back on, that good ole' chestnut that it is my interpretation, STOP with the BS, just for once.
It is not MY interpretation; it is what is written by your god. They are not my words or my contradictions. Look below , YOU posted this yourself and it is quite clear, what it says;
“Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing”!!!!
"I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.Thou shalt have no other gods before me.Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments."
So not only does it say DO NOT make ANYTHING it also clear not to bow down to ANY OTHER GOD, he says this because there were, in existence OTHER GODS, as Genesis make perfectly clear.
I know and understand the commandments better than you it seems. These verses do not explain the exemptions you speak about. In fact they reinforce my argument concerning not to MAKE ANY GRAVEN IMAGES as you have posted above yourself. SO, let me remind you again of what you have said:
Mopac wrote: It is not a total prohibition against making sculptures and pictures. Jews themselves make graven images, with certain guidelines of course.
Your link does not show any biblical exception or “certain guidelines” that allowed the ancient Hebrews to make ANY Graven images.
I read your link. I don’t know long it took you to trawl for this but you wasted your time. It goes nowhere to explain the exemption you insists existed at the time of Hezekiah or Moses .
And these thoughts of what it means now, today, to a SCULPTOR! in the 21st century certainly didn’t exist at the time the commandments were handed down to Moses, or when Hezekiah decided for himself the healing Serpent Staff made by Moses on his gods strict command and design, was an abomination.
Excuse me if I laugh. ☺☺☺☺☺
So that is a MASSIVE fail again on your part.
A passage from your link. I suggest you read carefully.
“Tobi Kahn, an artist who has thought a lot about this issue. He said it seemed clear to him that the root of the law was idolatry, and because he doesn’t see people worshipping idols or images anymore, and because we don’t know what God looks like, he doesn’t worry much about the issue of graven images. He doesn’t see any problem creating an image of a full human body”.
So let’s see: An artist who makes a living creating and selling his art and teaching art and who was born in 1952 is telling us it is quite alright to create graven images.
So this is your evidence is it? The opinion of 21st century artist giving his views on what he thinks god meant millennia ago by the words; “do not create ANYTHING above or below”? And when King Solomon built the first Temple in the 10th century BC with GIANT GRAVEN IMAGES of heavenly angelic faced Cherubs .
Excuse me if I laugh☺☺☺☺☺
Tobi Kahn is an American painter and sculptor. Kahn lives and works in New York City and is on the faculty at the School of Visual Arts.
None of the above shows me where there are exceptions to the rule as you insist there is. The verses you have produced only reiterate god's command not to make images or bow down to other gods.
Whoever is teaching you their version of these scriptures you should fire with immediate effect?And start learning for yourself. Start with a clean slate and read them as a history. You will discover that there is a lot more to these scriptures than your teachers will ever want you to know.
Oh and you failed again by the way.
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Not sure this would be quite classed in the gospel category, but it is about hope.
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@janesix
The fish symbolism of Christianity denotes the Age of Pisces. Will Christianity go the way of Pisces, as we enter the Age of Aquarius?
It is extremely unlikely, if we are to take the scriptures at face value. Christianity will go the way of the Bull and Ram (moses' time) that preceded the fish.. Jesus was forever referencing fish / fishermen.
The sign for Aquarius (as you know) is a man pouring a jug of water over the earth and sometimes represented by two wavy lines representing water like the Egyptian sign for water.
I don't know where you live but the U.K. hasn't seen so much water these past 25-30 years that it did prior to this period. What was it the ancients knew? How and why did they choose these specific images to represent the twelve houses of the Zodiac. Why was this zodiac recreated in the inner sanctum of the Holy of Holies in Jerusalem, why was this zodiac painted on the ceiling of the temple of Hathor in Dendera Egypt? These ancients knew more about the cosmos than we give the credit for.
There is an interesting conversation in the OT where it is said Joseph warned his family who were seeking refuge in Egypt not to tell the Pharaoh that they were shepherds:
When Pharaoh shall call you, and shall say, What is your occupation?
That ye shall say, Thy servants' trade hath been about cattle from our youth even until now, both we, and also our fathers: that ye may dwell in the land of Goshen; for every shepherd is an abomination unto the Egyptians.
So from this we can clearly get that the Egyptian were at the time worshiping the bull the lord (god) of the house Taurus . Whereas these relations of Joseph were Ram worshipers of the house of Aries.
Why do you think that is?
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Mopac: wroteHawking doesn't believe there is a God because..."we would know everything that God would know, if there were a God, which there isn't."For someone who is supposed to be such a genius, he sure does have a moronic reason for not believing in God.
So this statement from god himself is yet another lie from god himself. I see.
And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us,
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@PGA2.0
So, torturing an innocent child for fun and getting away with it is just???
That sound familiar. Didn't God himself send a satan to torment and torture Job for a bet? Lets see:
Job
Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil. And he still maintains his integrity,though you incited me against him to ruin him without any reason.”
4 “Skin for skin!” Satan replied. “A man will give all he has for his own life. 5 But now stretch out your hand and strike his flesh and bones, and he will surely curse you to your face.”
6 The Lord said to Satan, “Very well, then, he is in your hands; but you must spare his life.”
7 So Satan went out from the presence of the Lord and afflicted Job with painful sores from the soles of his feet to the crown of his head.
Was that enough to convince anyone of Job's loyalty and faithfulness? Well of course it wasn't. We are dealing with a megalomaniac god here. So he sent a satan again. This time killing all of his live stock, collapsing his house and killing his children and killing his servants.
Job
Job 1:10-22 New King James Version (NKJV)
10 Have You not made a hedge around him, around his household, and around all that he has on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. 11 But now, stretch out Your hand and touch all that he has, and he will surely curse[ You to Your face!”
12 And the Lord said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your power; only do not lay a hand on his person.”
So again a satan was sent to drive home a point .
13 Now there was a day when his sons and daughters were eating and drinking wine in their oldest brother’s house; 14 and a messenger came to Job and said, “The oxen were plowing and the donkeys feeding beside them, 15 when the Sabeans raided them and took them away—indeed they have killed the servants with the edge of the sword; and I alone have escaped to tell you!”
16 While he was still speaking, another also came and said, “The fire of God fell from heaven and burned up the sheep and the servants, and consumed them; and I alone have escaped to tell you!”
17 While he was still speaking, another also came and said, “The Chaldeans formed three bands, raided the camels and took them away, yes, and killed the servants with the edge of the sword; and I alone have escaped to tell you!”
18 While he was still speaking, another also came and said, “Your sons and daughters were eating and drinking wine in their oldest brother’s house, 19 and suddenly a great wind came from across the wilderness and struck the four corners of the house, and it fell on the young people, and they are dead; and I alone have escaped to tell you!”
Is it just to mentally torture anyone in this severe fasion just to prove a point and win a bet?
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WHICH CAME FIRST, THE ADAMA OR THE CHICKEN?
Genesis1:24-27 King James Version (KJV)
Genesis 2:18-20 King James Version (KJV)
:And the Lord Godsaid, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meetfor him.
19 And outof the ground the Lord Godformed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought themunto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called everyliving creature, that was the name thereof".
"And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature afterhis kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind:and it was so.....26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:"
So above then we clearly see that it was the animal kingdom that was created first.
Oh dear, have we spoke too soon?
:And the Lord Godsaid, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meetfor him.
19 And outof the ground the Lord Godformed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought themunto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called everyliving creature, that was the name thereof".
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Repent and turn away from your wickedness.
I will think about "repenting" when you show me the evidence you have for these statements you made below.
Mopac wrote: It is not a total prohibition against making sculptures and pictures. Jews themselves make graven images, with certain guidelines of course.
What are these "certain guidelines" and where can I read them?
Mopac wrote: The preceding and following verses clear this up handedly.
Then you should have no problem producing these "preceding" and "following" verses and explain to me how they actually explain away this biblical hypocrisy.
Mopac wrote: It is not a total prohibition against making sculptures and pictures.
So you keep saying, but without evidence to support this claim that goes against gods strict commands not to make "Graven Images anything"
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@Tradesecret
Sometimes a preacher will say something which is really an application of the idea being preached. This can cause questions in my mind and I think this is a good thing.
Except for when some else has a awkward question for you and they all of a sudden become "satan".
People need to question all things they hear.
And read. No matter how awkward or difficult or uncomfortable the question is.
He has given us principles to live by.
Like the sermon on the mount that wasn't actually a sermon on any mount, but a small collection of sayings by various people of the religious sects of the time.
Remember, from the bible's perspective God decides what is right and wrong.
He does get confused at times though as to what is right one minute and then wrong another, I have found. And he suffers from a memory loss and a bad temper. But Jesus said he loves me and wants me for a sunbeam.
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@Goldtop
Theists know only too well they're talking to themselves. Some require that third party invisible friend who never judges them and always provides the answer they seek as opposed to the truth they avoid.
A+
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@Mopac
The staff Moses created by Moses was set up and worshipped as a god, which was why the staff was destroyed.
You Haven't answered the questions have you. You haven't supplied the evidence for your claims. WILD claims.
You aren't even talking about what I Am, you have a nonargument.
This is the argument. Stop being so ignorant and read it slowly.
“You Shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything"
This^^^^^ above^^^^ is the title and theme of this discussion it is what I am and what is being discussed, on MY THREAD. This Is what you have been commenting on and arguing about, stop trying to say we are discussing different things when it is clear to all reading here that is not the case, so stop your deceitful practice
You STILL haven’t provided single shred of evidence that supports this claim of yours that you insist states there are exceptions to this god’s commandment: here is what you have stated for all to see>>
Mopac wrote: It is not a total prohibition against making sculptures and pictures. Jews themselves make graven images, with certain guidelines of course.
Where is your evidence?
You have also claimed that the bible explains why it is that “some graven images are acceptable, saying
Mopac wrote: The preceding and following verses clear this up handedly.
Well now why didn’t you say to begin with then? That’s all fine, now is all you have to do is put these verses up and let us see them.
Images in synagogue of all places.
I know. I am not arguing they are there and in existence am I? Ijust want you to explain why is it that ALL graven images are forbidden by gods strict command, yet the temple has gigantic graved images inside and out that go against gods direct command given by god to Moses? These particular graven images didn’t seem to offend god Or Hezekiah? Why!!!?
But the staff with a healing serpent entwined around it and made by Moses at GOD'S personal behest and to gods strict design, Hezekiah found this an abomination!Why?
But if you want real confirmation, ask a rabbi,
I have. and priest and nun.
My Answer to your post 47 that I read and didn't ignore, is that your post 47 doesn’t answer single one of these questions concerning Graven Images that are Taboo on the strict command of god almighty himself?
Back in those days and even for thousands of years since, people worshipped statues and images as being gods.
They did, but we are talking SPECIFICALLY about one kind people only aren’t we: Hebrews/Israelites aren’t we? and the strict commands of their god. Trying to drag all people under one umbrella isn’t going to get you off this terrible dilemma you are now in.
The interpretation that we are not tomake any images, statues, or anything like that is actually very common in a lot of protestant circles,
It doesn’t answer my questions, I don’t care what Christians do and think today, I don’t care who worships graved images in the21st century, so please so stop with the filibustering, simply put up the verses that you say excuses the MAKING of graven images and put up the evidence that god says Graven images can be made “with certain guidelines”.
And of course I would like to see that evidenced for this statement you also made>>
It is not a total prohibition against making sculptures and pictures.
The bible contradict you. it clearly say ANYTHING, You keep shying away from this fact. You cannot get around it so you have lied instead. show us the verses that prove you right. Show us where god states as you say ; "
"Jews themselves make graven images, with certain guidelines" . The truth is you have no answer and you have lied.
You haven't done any favours to your god but instead did him a great disservice..
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The Christians dogma still,to this day, insist that there was and is, only ever has been, only one god. This is a lie and the odd thing about their insistence is that their own scriptures state to the contrary.
Why is it that they have settled on the preferred idea of an omnipotent and everlasting single, male god?
When we actually look at the biblical text we see that even the Judeo/Christian bible says that god was not alone I his environment. I am sure many now are familiar with this verse that blows the Christian dogma of “only one god” clean out of the water.
And God said, Let US make man in our image, after OUR likeness: Genesis 1:26
And there is the famous and no getting away from, Psalm 82 that clearly states;
Psalm 82
God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.....
I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
And there is the commandment where god refers again to other gods:
Exodus.20:3
“You shall have no other gods before me”.
Genesis 11:7
“ let US go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other.”
Psalm 95:3
For the Lord is a great God, and a great King above all gods.
Psalm 135:5
For I know that the Lord is great, and that our Lord is above all gods.
This is not to mention that these gods had families; sons of gods when descended to earth and took the daughters of men as wives..
And there are many occasions in the bible where one god is ordering the death of those who have or are supporters of other gods.
Deuteronomy 6:14-16
Ye shall not go after other gods, of the gods of the people which are round about you;
15 (For The Lord thy God is a jealous God among you) lest the anger of the Lord thy God be kindled against thee, and destroy thee from off the face of the earth.
16 Ye Shall not tempt the Lord your God, as ye tempted him in Massah.
So it's plain to see that there are other gods who were without doubt recognised and acknowledged by the Hebrew/ Judeo/Christian god. And this Hebrew./Judeo/Christian god is a self confessed “jealous god” and would kill and make to suffer for generations anyone who preferred one of these other gods to him.
Who will deny this pluralism?Well Christians of course.
The usual Christian Reasoning is either to say that the “us”is the Trinity or that it is a heavenly assembly of angels.
But can we really believe that the original audience for Genesis would understand the strictly Christian conception of an idea that had its roots in Rome thousands of years after? And the scripture doesn’t mention an “assembly of angels” but an assembly of “gods” plural
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Ok for those who are interested, I will point out what I believe are anomalous about the two verses.
Genesis 5:1-2
"This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him; Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created".
"Their name Adam", so this explains perfectly that Adam wasn't the name of a single person, it was the name of a species/ a type of being.
And what about this strange verse:
"Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh".<<<this is Genesis 2:24.
I asked can any see what is wrong with this verse concerning "Adam"? Not even the devout and -proclaimed well read in scripture - Christians here wouldn't attempt this.
"Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother", Question then is , how would this be possible in the case of Adam who had no parents? If we was to say god was his father then we are still stuck with the absence of his mother
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But saying "you shall not make an image of heaven above or earth beneath or the waters below" still strikes me as a pretty weird and roundabout way of saying "you shall not make idols".
From your post 48 Castin > it is exactly as you have put in your post above. It doesn't say an image OF heaven it says IN heaven
"You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below.
You shall not bow down to them or worship them."
But let's not get blindsided by semantics, The fact is that on the strict command of this god Moses was told NOT to make graven images of anything above in the skies /heaven or below on earth. There is absolutely no getting away from this fact. God then goes against his own dictate and commands Moses to make a staff/rod/ pole and to entwine around it a healing Serpent. And they have this staff in their possession for over a thousand years before Hezekiah decides this gods created and designed Serpent Healing Staff is an abomination and orders its destruction.
Meanwhile, standing inside and outside of the Jerusalem Temple of Solomon the most sacred place on earth (depending on which god you supported), King Hezekiah of Judah has Graven images of heavenly beings and two giant engraven statues with wingspans of over 30ft and no one seems to find these images offensive in anyway..at all, no one, not even god or King Hezekiah?
This is not to mention all of the heavenly imagery that adorn the inside of god's own house/temple.
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@Mopac
You aren't even talking about what I Am, you have a nonargument.
This is the argument. Stop being so ignorant and read it slowly.
“You Shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything"
This^^^^^ above^^^^ is the title and theme of this discussion it is what I am and what is being discussed, on MY THREAD. This Is what you have been commenting on and arguing about, stop trying to say we are discussing different things when it is clear to all reading here that is not the case, so stop your deceitful practice
You STILL haven’t provided single shred of evidence that supports this claim of yours that you insist states there are exceptions to this god’s commandment: here is what you have stated for all to see>>
Mopac wrote: It is not a total prohibition against making sculptures and pictures. Jews themselves make graven images, withcertain guidelines of course.
Where is your evidence?
You have also claimed that the bible explains why it is that “some graven images are acceptable, saying
Mopac wrote: The preceding and following verses clear this up handedly.
Well now why didn’t you say to begin with then? That’s all fine, now is all you have to do is put these verses up and let us see them.
Images in synagogue of all places.
I know. I am not arguing they are there and in existence am I? Ijust want you to explain why is it that ALL graven images are forbidden by gods strict command, yet the temple has gigantic graved images inside and out that go against gods direct command given by god to Moses? These particular graven images didn’t seem to offend god Or Hezekiah? Why!!!?
But the staff with a healing serpent entwined around it and made by Moses at GOD'S personal behest and to gods strict design, Hezekiah found this an abomination!Why?
But if you want real confirmation, ask a rabbi,
I have. and priest and nun.
My Answer to your post 47 that I read and didn't ignore, is that your post 47 doesn’t answer single one of these questions concerning Graven Images that are Taboo on the strict command of god almighty himself?
Back in those days and even for thousands of years since, people worshipped statues and images as being gods.
They did, but we are talking SPECIFICALLY about one kind people only aren’t we: Hebrews/Israelites aren’t we? and the strict commands of their god. Trying to drag all people under one umbrella isn’t going to get you off this terrible dilemma you are now in.
The interpretation that we are not tomake any images, statues, or anything like that is actually very common in a lot of protestant circles,
It doesn’t answer my questions, I don’t care what Christians do and think today, I don’t care who worships graved images in the21st century, so please so stop with the filibustering, simply put up the verses that you say excuses the MAKING of graven images and put up the evidence that god says Graven images can be made “with certain guidelines”.
And of course I would like to see that evidenced for this statement you also made>>
It is not a total prohibition against making sculptures and pictures.
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@janesix
I don't think there was slow gradual change
I think the evidence is against you Jane. But, it gives all something to ponder doesn't it? Imagine if mankind knew everything.
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@Castin
The point is that nowhere does it say there are exceptions to this commandment as mopac is trying desperately to convince himself that there is.
There isn't, he knows it because his bible says so. If he insists on denything this fact he is doing his god no favours and a great disservice..
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@janesix
But the link breaks as if it wasn't a link at all. The Neandertals are proven links to primates, But the link between Neanderthal and homo sapien Cro Magnon has been proven not to exist, there is a unexplainable giant leap forward?
Still, it give us all something to ponder and wonder about, doesn't it.☺☺☺
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@Mopac
Make them to worship them.
Stop it!!! for christ's sake!
The preceding and following verses clear this up handedly.
lets us see them AND For the fifth time
Lets us see the evidence for this claim, chapter and verse. I want to see where this god who said "do not make any graven images" then goes against his own words and says to the people of Judea that - "some images can be made under "certain guidelines".
None of these people saying otherwise even respect scripture, they are simply trying to be destructive.
I take them seriously enough to belief that there is actually a story here that is not being told truthfully. And the more you cough, stutter and splutter , the more I see that you simply do not have a clue of what's going on in any parts of the scriptures and take it all for the fairytale that has been preached to you. There sis a real story going on in these scriptures of that I am convinced, it is just not the total crap that you seem to believe.
Mopac wrote: It is not a total prohibition against making sculptures and pictures.Jews themselves make graven images, with certain guidelines of course
And you evidence for this ?
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@Castin
So you think river = healing, snake = river. Interesting.
No what I am saying is this particular "Lord" (modern word god) was of the medical field whose residence was on or near a meandering river as many lords residence were. So what I think is Serpent = title Lord of the wisdom of healing/medicine. AKA Enki the Wise Serpent Lord. Remember Jesus called the serpent "wise" and instructed his disciples to be like him.
Christians just hate to face up to that one, they cannot reconcile how Jesus would be holding this vile deceiver of mankind in such high esteem? Unless he wasn't and was actually telling his disciples to be sly and two faced by pretending to be harmless as doves but deadly has snakes. It is one or the other isn't it?
Be ye therefore wise as serpents and harmless as doves. mat: 10-16
It is only Christian tradition that has painted this wise Serpent Lord as a evil "devil".
I would have guessed the shedding of its snakeskin had more to do with it. Rebirth or rejuvenation or something.
The snake may well have a/this significance of "re birth" in some 'modern' cultures. But this isn't the significance in the case. We are taking here of first and earliest of civilisation/s.
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@disgusted
Mopac worte: Stephen has a faulty interpretation of the scripture, and context makes this very clear. Images are not to be worshipped as gods. Jews are not to make images to be worshipped as gods.
disgusted wrote: Provide the verse that support this lie.
KJV 20:4
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
@ disgusted. He simply cannot support his claim of exemption "within certain guidelines" that is why he has come up with the complete nonsense that he has done.
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@Castin
I guess the deal is that the scripture doesn't just say not to worship images. It says not to make them at all.
That is exactly what it says and i have noticed still that Mopac hasn't provided us with the evidence that Graven images can be made but under certain conditions. He's a liar. This is what he has said in a miserable attempt at get around this blazing biblical contradiction.
Mopac wrote: It is not a total prohibition against making sculptures and pictures.Jews themselves make graven images, with certain guidelines of course
For the fourth time
Lets us see the evidence for this claim, chapter and verse. I want to see where this god who said "do not make any graven images" then goes against his own words and says to the people of Judea that - "some images can be made under "certain guidelines".
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@Mopac
Images of ANYTHING were not to be made PERIOD!Images are not to be worshipped as gods.
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@Castin
I'm always curious about the origin of the symbolism. How did snakes and staffs become associated with healing?
Well when we talk of Ancient places such as Egypt and Mesopotamia we cannot help think of the rivers Nile, Euphrates And the Tigris.
These big cities were built on or very near to this life giving fluid. (London is built on the Bank of the Thames, memphis is on the Mississippi as are many other cities) .
These rivers follow a winding, meandering course. They twist and bend and curve and curl, - snake –like.
The first recorded healing Lord according to Sumerian And other ancient text was Ea/Enk. He was known as the Serpent Lord simply because of his place of residence, next to the Euphrates.
The tradition started there my friend and there is nothing recorded earlier to my knowledge that says different. This emblematic Serpent has been related to this ancient healing Lord since man had a brain and has been continued since those ancient times way back in Mesopotamia. It is STILL the emblem of all medical institutions in the West
Marvellous isn’t it.☺☺☺
I'm not sure about the meaning of Exodus 20:4. To me it reads like "don't make an image of anything" or "don't make images".
Yes very clearly written isn't it. Of "ANYTHING", but you may have seen above, some just won't accept it even though the dictate is clear as day, they will rewrite what is clearly written bu their own god and try to tell us god didn't mean "ANYTHING".
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@janesix
Do you think we originated on a different planet?
That's a fair question considering I said " I don't believe we are of this planet". But I can only say yes and no. If we were to discount the entire evolutionary process from the most primitive anthropoids of 30 million years ago,we will still end up with a positive proof that Neanderthal man existed before 70,000 BC. This race is believed to have become extinct after some 40,000 years and in the meantime Cro Magnon man had appeared by 34,000 BC thus beginning the era of "thinking man" homo sapiens- sapienta Latin meaning 'wisdom' , with art, clothing and a community structure.
Strangely enough, this would go some way to agreeing with the Genesis story were the creation of man turned the other way around.
Darwin spoke of the "missing link" in his Decent of Man in relation to to the anomalies in the evolutionary chain. And this has yet to be resolved.
Although it is now known that the Cro magnon human strain and modern homo sapiens have not the slightest strain of DNA ancestry from the Neanderthals. This was ascertained in 1997 when a team led by Dr Savante Paabo of the University of Munich managed to extract DNA from a Neanderthal upper arm bone fragment. Mitochondrial DNA is passed down ,unchanged from mothers to their children, and, apart from the odd random mutation, all of today's humans have similar sequences. It transpired that the 40,000year - old Neanderthal DNA was so significantly different that it had to be that of an entirely separate species. The scientist announced that that- "without question, the Neanderthal race was a dead end" and that there wasn't a single piece of evidence for cross breeding with cro magnon homo sapiens".
Of course it is up to the individual to believe who and what he like. But people such as Dr Savante Paabo and his team of scientists are , I would say, a little difficult to argue with and debunk..
But like I have mentioned in a thread of mine, scientist reading today the creation of the biblical Eve couldn't help but believe that we was probably looking at genetic cloning and engineering.
Genesis 2:21-23
And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept:
So lets say here Adam was anesthetized (put under).
and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;
Then something is taken from inside of him (rib) and he was stitched up.
And the rib, which the Lord God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.
And from this body part of Adam they extracted something (DNA?) and created another being, a female.
And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.
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