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@ethang5
You could have fooled me. But that is your right and prerogative, ethang5And I don't care what you "accept".
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John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
Luke 24:36-40 King James Version (KJV)
36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
So here is the risen Jesus. Nice
37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
Why were they so scared, had he not taught his close inner circle the mysteries of resurrection? Hadn't they expected their lord to be resurrected? surely they understood the practice, they had witnessed the raising of lazarus, had they not. Still, we read on:
38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
Exactly, why were they "terrified and affrighted". Why were they so troubled?
39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it isI myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye seeme have.
So it is made clear by Jesus himself that he was not a ghost, alive not dead, still on earth and not yet ascended". But it is the last part of this verse that puzzles me most: he instructs them, his disciples, to "handle me and see" ! But hadn't earlier told Magdalene "touch me not: for I am not yet ascended"
40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.
And when we return to John's gospel,there is also the story of " doubting Thomas".
Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing John 20:27
Yet this is the same Gospel where we are told earlier that Mary couldn't touch her master for he had not ascended?
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@ethang5
Because I'veanswered you. I will not keep addressing your delusions each time you decide torepost them.
Yes you have answered and I have told you I don't accept your excuses. I haven't repeated my questions as you keep suggesting but have asked different questions that you are ignoring. Just simply ignore this thread altogether as it is you who keeps responding to my first question.
Are you sure about that? His birth certainly scared the hell out of his father so much so that Herod the Great ordered the massacre of the innocents. And all first born were to be slaughtered. Or was that a load of baloney re-hashed from the Old Testament too. Lets see.
“ Pharaoh charged all his people, saying, Every son that is born yeshall cast into the river, and every daughter ye shall save alive”. Exodus :22
So the answer to that question is a definite yes.
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@disgusted
PLEASE DO NOT DERAIL THIS THREAD WITH YOUR PERSONAL ARGUMENTS AND CLAPTRAP.
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You may now be trying to run awayfrom your original claim.
I amdoing no such thing. I am trying to get to the bottom of this puzzling storyconcerning the life and death Of John the Baptist.
It is your original claim that Ioppose.
Yes I know. You have made yourposition quite clear on where you stand on that query, my 1st query concerningthis old couple’s punishment for doing nothing wrong which was my first question.You even said it wasn’t a punishment when it clearly IS! Zacharias simply askedwhat any normal human being would ask and your god should have accepted thatpoor old aged Zacharias was a simple mortal of his own creation.
Read for yourself. This messenger(angel) tells Zacharias what will happen to him and why he is being given suchover the top punishment for “doubting”.
"And, behold, thou shalt be dumb, and not able to speak, untilthe day that these things shall be performed, because thou believest not mywords, which shall be fulfilled in their season." Luke 1:20.
You pointed out that Zacharias should have heeded Genesis 18:9-16 which was an identical story to that of Zacharias and his old barren wife Elisabeth.Why you did this is your concern but it didn’t “prove anything” but proved my point perfectly, because there had clearly been doubt and laughing atthe suggestion of such a “miracle birth” BUT NO PUNISHMENT. I won’t point outyour other silly errors.
So again, I dismiss your interpretation.
My second query was concerningthe chronology of events leading up to John’s death. Your excuse for that wasthe gospeller Mark was speaking in a “past tense”. I don’t accept that, I havetold you I do not accept that. And you have no way of proving that.
Mark 6 :16 has Herod saying “it is John risen from the dead” . So we canonly assume that John is dead.
But when we read further we getto Herod’s birthday party when a dancing girl asks for the head of John.
“ the king sent anexecutioner, and commanded his head to be brought: and he went and beheadedhim in the prison”
It is another of those anomaliesthat you have tried to explain away with nonsense such “past tense”. My querywas the chronology and not weather Mark was wrong or right or confused.
And you have totally ignored my post 29 why ?
You haven’t addressed thequestion above in post 29. Is it because I have pointed out yet another glaringanomaly that you cannot cope with and explain away?
Maybe PGA.2.0 can step in foryou.
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@Nathaniel_B
He has always been portrayed as a white male,
Only to the ignorant who forget that he was a Jew from the middle east.
What was Jesus's (If he actually existed) true skin color?
See above.
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How many people do you reckonwitnessed John baptising Jesus?
ethang5 >> "Very many people".
So then, here we have the prophesied about and expected messiah appearing to the masses AND JOHN. And of course among this multitude of people who knew of John and the content of his preaching of were Priests. We know this simply because Jesus had questioned these priests about John.
Interestingly Herod knew of John too didn’t he? The evidence for this when scrutinised appears to show they were almost bosom buddies.
Herod thought highly of the Baptist although at times he is said to have “feared John” and knew him to be “holy AND just” and here is the interesting part ;> Herod liked to visit John often in his incarceration because enjoyed conversing with John and he also enjoyed listening to him. What ever were they discussing ? It couldn't have been Herods marital situation because Herod had heard all that before. Would Herod go visit John just to hear his remonstrations over and over again? hardly likely is it.
"For Herod feared John, knowing that he was a just man and a holy, and observed him; and when he heard him, he did many things, and heard him gladly". Mark 6:20.KJV.
And of course Herod feared John because John had a massive following his own and enough to cause a rebellion.
But you want all those reading here to believe that, not once did John the Baptist mention the fact that he had actually baptised the "one to come", the messiah, Jesus, the one believed to have been prophesied about in the OT , who would force Herod to vacate the throne and free the Jews from the Roman yoke.?
And are you telling us that NOT EVEN A SINGLE ONE of those priests would have tipped off Herod about the threat to his throne that Jesus posed?
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@ethang5
How many people do you reckon witnessed John baptising Jesus? keeping in mind that Jesus appeared amongst a crowd of people who were being baptised by John at the time of Jesus' appearance?
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@PGA2.0
The OT and NT are interconnected. The NT is the fulfillment of the OT. It provides a covenant that meets all the righteous requirements of God in one Person - the Lord Jesus Christ. It accomplishes what the OT is not capable of doing, restoring the relationship with God forever.
If that be the case, then could you be kind enough to show where in the Old Testament is Jesus referred to as the Messiah and what his role will be as MESSIAH.
And why did Jesus not want to reveal that he was the expected messiah.?.
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@ethang5
Then you don't know your scripture and you don't understand the question.
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@PGA2.0
I am suggesting that, just likeany religious belief, your belief system has the same focus. You try to answerthe same foundational questions that any religion would, thus making yourworldview a religious one.
In youropinion.
1) Why amI here?2) Whatam I?
3) Who amI?
4) Whatdifference does it make?
5) Whathappens to me when I die?
Some ofthose foundational questions that ANY religion and worldview attempts to answerare:
In youropinion. They are not necessarily questions I have asked since I was a childand one doesn't have to be "religious" Or follow a faith to ask thoseso obvious fundamental questions that children usually ask.
If you have any system of beliefat all you have faith in that system,
Wherehave is once said my opinions and or observations are in any way true orcorrect. I am now getting sick of telling you the same thing over and over. Ihave read the scriptures and I claim the bible is ambiguous, puzzling,vague and enigmatic. It tells half stories. It hides details. It ishypocritical and at times clearly and simply unbelievable. And it has sinisterundertones, which to me, makes the story that these 4 gospellers are telling unreliable at least and a pack of lies at worse.
THAT ISTHE WAY I READ IT. But it doesn't make my findings any truer than your mindreading, heart reading omnipotent so called god any more real.
Using a so called all powerful super being to explain away all the anomaliesand enigmatic verses in these gospels doesn't work for me as I am sure it isn'tgood enough for millions of others in the 21st century.
Youobviously do not take my personal opinions or findings as I read them andsimply dismiss them . So exactly what is your problem?
What Ibelieve and or suggest about these unreliable gospels doesn't affect you in anyway, does it.
Andlet me just remind you again: this sub forum is titled - Religion!
It is not titled Religion for believers ONLY. And it is not titled Religion for the faithful ONLY, either. It is for anyone todiscuss religion and not for the religious to have a monopoly and use it foryour own religious propaganda.
It is not compulsory for you to address my questions or opinions.
Using a so called all powerful super being to explain away all the anomaliesand enigmatic verses in these gospels doesn't work for me as I am sure it isn'tgood enough for millions of others in the 21st century.
Youobviously do not take my personal opinions or findings as I read them andsimply dismiss them . So exactly what is your problem?
What Ibelieve and or suggest about these unreliable gospels doesn't affect you in anyway, does it.
Andlet me just remind you again: this sub forum is titled - Religion!
It is not titled Religion for believers ONLY. And it is not titled Religion for the faithful ONLY, either. It is for anyone todiscuss religion and not for the religious to have a monopoly and use it foryour own religious propaganda.
It is not compulsory for you to address my questions or opinions.
"Then said Thomas, which is called Didymus, unto his fellow disciples, Let us also go, that we may die with him."
In the verse above tell me, why would these other followers want to "die" along with Lazarus?
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@PGA2.0
IF what the Bibleclaims is reasonable and logical to believe.
“IF” But what I am saying is, as it is written and conveyed by these gospellers it is not believable to me.
What you do without any final, ultimate, absolute authority is make yourself that authority.
Oh stop it! I am only sharing my beliefs. I have stated I am not trying to convince anyone of anything. I don’t claim authority. I claim the bible is ambiguous, puzzling,vague and enigmatic. It tells half stories. It hides details. It is hypocritical and at times clearly and simply unbelievable. And it has sinister undertones.
So ultimately, if you do not place your faith in God you place it, and your authority, in something else.
Oh Stop being silly. I have no religious faith at all. That is a GIANT assumption on your part and you have no evidence at all to back up that GIANT assumption. You are suggesting that, to not believe, is to have a faith and authority in something else and of its own. You cannot even begin to prove that of me.
Stop assuming things about me you don’t know. If you have a counter argument, please share your opinions and theories as I have and am entitled to do.
This is a religious sub forum. To discuss religion. It is NOT for the religious ONLY.
"This is John the Baptist; he has risen from the dead, and therefore mighty works do show in him"
Answer me this:.>
How could Herod claim Jesus was John resurrected "risen from the DEAD" WHEN THEY HAD BOTH BEEN ALIVE AT THE SAME TIME!!!!?
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@ethang5
ethang5 "If you don't accept the Christian definition of God, your entire argument become nonsense"
But I don’t do I.
ethang5 "Then there was no Zack. No birth. No Elizabeth, no questions, no punishment, and no God. Your post is nonsense".
Again you are resorting to bending my words. I have clearly stated I do not believe Jesus was a god.
I have said I believe that jesus believed he was rightful heir to the throne of jerusalem i.e. King of the Jews.
I have said I believe Jesus was a priest.
I have said the word "god" is a word of Greek origin. And that it has no resemblance whatsoever to the original meaning of the word "Lord" as in the original mesopotamian definition. mesopotamian scriptures out date the bible by thousands of years and all of the 'higher being' were simply referred to as lords, not gods. You and other earlier christian writers have named them god in the supernatural sense of the word. The mesopotamians simply have their lords down as beings of high intellect and technology. I.E. highly educated much more above themselves.
I have believed that the characters in the OT and NT existed.
But what seems to be getting up your pompous hooter is the fact that I BELIEVE THAT THERE IS AN UNDERLINING STORY IN THE NEW TESTAMENT THAT THE GOSPEL WRITERS ARE DESPERATE TO HIDE. One only has to scratch the surface of these vague and anomalous, sometimes enigmatic half told stories and one finds a much fuller and sometimes intriguing story altogether that leaves myself and many questioning the validity. And saying god used his supernatural powers just doesn't answer it for me.
In other words Ethan5 I see and read the New Testament different to you. I am ONLY giving MY understanding of the scripture.
I will capitalise my next sentence so you clearly understand and cannot misinterpret what I am statening.
I AM NOT TRYING TO CONVINCE YOU OR ANYONE ELSE THAT WHAT I SAY IS TRUE. I DON'T CARE IF YOU DON'T ACCEPT MY INTERPRETATION, THAT IS YOUR RIGHT.
BUT PLEASE RECOGNISE MY RIGHT TO MY OPINION AND UNDERSTANDING OF THESE BIBLICAL SCRIPTURES.
I will repeat my stance here, capitalised, in bold and underlined:.>>
I BELIEVE THAT THERE IS AN UNDERLINING STORY IN THE NEW TESTAMENT THAT THE GOSPEL WRITERS ARE DESPERATE TO HIDE.
You do not have to respond to my thread.
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@Mopac
I must be too ignorant to see that, because I just see you projecting your haughtiness on to me.
Or stating a fact.
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@Mopac
I'm not even talking about a place of eternal torment. I'm talking about right here on Earth.
OK. What a kind and benevolent god / lord of lords/Jesus you worship. He creates a mere mortal full of faults, medically, physically and mentally then causes him to love in on ON EARTH for not being pure & perfect. Besides, I thought god / lord of lords/Jesus had came to earth to "save us" from the fires of hell that you speak of.
And you didn't answer this question below. why is that?
P.S. If as you believe, Jesus is Lord of all other Lords, who are these other Lords that jesus is lord over?
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@ethang5
God could read hisheart.
So you keep saying but I don’t believe you and I don’t believe that you can prove that silly statement.But please go ahead and share your evidence of gods mind & heart reading.
God made it holy, yet here you are, ignorantly rejecting thejudgement of the very God you are claiming is holy.
Nope it was the holiest place on earth for those who believed it as such, which happened to be the JEWS at the time NOT christians. So let me make this perfectly clear, it was never and still is NOT, holy to me. but I can appreciate that it is for many believers.
If you are dumb enough to cherry pick the bible,
Wrong again. YOU chose and cherry picked that story of Sarah and Abraham,as an example of what Zacharias should have heeded and read. NOT ME! I quoted it in full as I have the whole of of the strange conception of the Baptist.. It makes no sense that a couple who the bible says:.
were both righteous before God,walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless. Luke1:6 should both be punished
Why should this sinless devout poor old couple be punished for simply asking how and or when will this miraculous event happen. You messed up using that “cherry picked” OT example didn’t you .
Neither is a "punishment" story einstein.
So says you. YOUR OT is not a punishment story, I agree. And that is my point. You used it without realising because having the power of speech taken away and for no clear or apparent reason as in the story of the Baptist clearly ends with a penalty for Zacharias, doesn’t it.
If you don't accept the Christian definition of God, your entire argument become nonsense.
But I don’t do I. I have spent half a thread telling you I don’t believe the Christ was a god. I also don’t accept the Christian idea of what a god is. Orhave you forgotten the thread - Jesus is Lord? - by Paul? I make my position perfectly clear on that thread. So stop trying to put words into my mouth.
Either you accept the bible's account, or you don't.
Correct. And I don’t. I have given my reasons why and I have started to give my opinions and beliefs on the stories therein. I don’t expect a devout Christian to accept what I have to say but I believe it would be simply good manners to at least hear another’s opinion without name calling and telling everyone who doesn’t agree with the bible narration of events OR YOU that they are IGNORANT,!as you so loosely do.
It means by what means shall I know this is true?
Now you are defying the definition of the word – whereby-. This is the word Zacharias clearly uses.
What you believe carries no authority.
Maybe not in the world of a devout Christian. But that is to be expected and I am not in any way concerned OR OFFENDED. I am not even trying to convince you or anyone of anything. I am putting the scriptures as I SEE THEM and as I READ THEM. It is up to you to challenge my version and or interpretation,but only if you wish to do so.
And when what you believe contradicts the bible, I will throw it out wholesale.
Yes I know. But at least put up valuable contradictory evidence to back bible's version of events. It is not good enough in the 21st century to simply say “ because the bible said”. people are much more educated these days, they are not backward unthinking peasants of 1st century Palestine. it would pay you to remember that ethang5
Thanks for your time.
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@Mopac
What is a religion but a way of life? Is the cobbler any more correct than the carpenter?
You should take that on board yourself, Mopac. You claim to know the truth of god who is Jesus who is Lord over all lords, but are you anymore correct in your opinions or beliefs than the "cobbler" or the carpenter" who are atheist ?
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@Mopac
If there is any inconsistency, it is certainly in your interpretation, because I understand what I am saying.
Why is that everyone else who speaks to the contrary of an opinion are the ones that "don't understand" "have misread" " have misinterpreted" "can't read", "are ignorant"?
You have been caught out clearly for everyone reading here to see Mopac.
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@Mopac
When you are a bored and grumpy old man, you might not realize how foolsih this is, but you'll certainly be living in hell if you don't.
What a kind and benevolent god / lord of lords/Jesus you worship. He creates a mere mortal full of faults, medically, physically and mentally then sends him to the burning fires of hell for not being pure & perfect. Besides, I thought god / lord of lords/Jesus had came to earth to "save us" from the fires of hell that you speak of.
P.S. If as you believe, Jesus is Lord of all other Lords, who are these other Lords that jesus is lord over?
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@ethang5
I just did Jethro. Do you know what"well stricken in years" mean? You don't do you? How do you propose to critique the bible when you are ignorant of simple language and history?
Nope he only asked how /when, like any other mere mortal would. These were a couple who were absolutely blameless in the eyes of god.
You were kind enough to point out to us the story of Sarah and Abraham. I am glad it was you who did this and not me and for a number of reasons which I shall cover later. For in that story you chose to compare the story of Zacharias & the Baptist with, god doesn’t punish anyone, does he?
Yet it CLEARLY states that Abraham “ laughed and doubted in his heart” concerning his first born son Ishmael by the Egyptian and that Sarah laughed so loud she could be heard to do so and then lied about it.
Here look, show us all where is anyone struckdumb or even punished.
You were stupid enough to tell us that this is the OT story Zacharias should have taken heed of but had ignored. You must have forgotten that this “blameless” fully trained priest who ACTUALLY worked in the Holiest place on earth at the time and was well versed in the OT scriptures. Do you actually believe that this man who walked "IN ALL the commandments and ordinances of his god" would have ignored his gods earlier example of bringing forth babies from "old and barren " women ? Here read for yourself and show us all here how this non punishment story compares to the extreme punishment of Zacharias who did nothing wrong.
Genesis 18:9-16 King JamesVersion (KJV)
9 And they said unto him, Where is Sarah thy wife? And he said, Behold, in the tent.
10 And he said, I will certainly return unto thee according to the time of life; and, lo, Sarah thy wife shall have ason. And Sarah heard it in the tent door, which was behind him.
11 Now Abraham and Sarah were old and well stricken in age; and it ceased to be with Sarah after the manner of women.
12 Therefore Sarah laughed within herself,saying, After I am waxed old shall I have pleasure, my lord being old also?
13 And the Lord said unto Abraham, Wherefore did Sarah laugh,saying, Shall I of a surety bear a child, which am old?
14 Is any thing too hard for the Lord? At the time appointed I will return unto thee, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son.
15 Then Sarah denied, saying, I laughed not; for she was afraid. And he said, Nay; but thou didst laugh.
16 And the men rose up from thence, and looked toward Sodom: and Abraham went with them to bring them on the way.
So, point out to us all, where in this OT story that YOU recommended Zacharias should have read and taken heed of, does either Sarah or Abraham get punished by god ?
You are pretty good at name calling and throwing accusations of ignorance around the place, but you fail miserably when it comes to explaining away these vague and ambiguous biblical stories aren’t you? And of course asking us all too, to simply accept that this so called god has supernatural mind reading powers.
He asked for proofthat indicated the story was true.
That is just a complete lie. Show us all here were Zacharias asked for or demanded “proof”.
"Whereby shall I know this?" Is all Zacharias asked nothing more nothing less. In others words he asked how and or when. This does not mean doubt in the slightest.
wherebywɛːˈbʌɪ/
adverb
1. by which.
So, in the case of Zacharias this means - I believe you by which method and when?
Here is clue for you Mr. Especially Ignorant of his own scriptures. You should be looking at Abraham's first born by his Egyptian slave. This is the child no one seems to focus on but I believe Ishmael is key and ‘fits’ more closely to the baptist story and than people like you care to realise.
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@EtrnlVw
Ahhh, star dust? but do you know why star dust exists?
American astronomer, astrophysicist, astrobiologist, cosmologist, author, science popularizer, and science communicator in astronomy and other natural sciences, says ;.
"we are star stuff"
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@ethang5
Where does Zacharias once call this messenger a liar?
ethang5 >>> "God can read hearts genius. Plus Zacharias said, "I am an old man, and my wife well stricken in years." If you weren't ignorant, you would know that women cannot get pregnant after a certain age, and Zacharias was doubting that what the angel said could be true".
No, Not once did Zacharias doubt anything and you cannot show me where he did. You are being silly. And stop calling me ignorant just because I don't agree and go along with your beliefs and fantasies.
The whole story surrounding the Baptist is as strange and puzzling one from start to finish.
ethang5>>>"Because you are ignorant of Hebrew history and female biology. Most of the world is puzzling to the ignorant".
Now your talking sense.. in part. The gospel writer here has indeed re-hashed an Old Testament story, something they do often.
So why was this old devout priest Zacharias "struck dumb"
ethang5>>>He asked for proof that indicated the story was true. He got it. He should have known the story of Abraham and Sarah and kept his mouth shut.
Again not true and the story is there to read for those who want to bother to read it. He didn't ask for proof of anything and you cannot show me where he did....
his poor old aged and barren wife forced to "hide herself away"?
ethang5>>>Because no one would believe she was pregnant at that age and would assume disease and become concerned and alarmed. Think man.
Again spouting anything that comes to mind without a single piece of evidence.
There was no reason at all for this poor servant of god to have such an infliction put upon him or for his wife to have to hide away especially when we read further that they were both sinless and blameless here read it yourself>>.
“both were righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless [sinless]” all their lives.
Your excuses are as miserable as all your other excuses. The thing here is you simply don't have the answers to awkward and difficult questions.
I do agree though, that New Testament writers just love reaching for their trusty Old Testament for stories to rehash and bring into their own present time. Sometimes they didn't stop as simply rehashing these stories, they would go all the way and recreate them. Like the one you mentioned Genesis 18 . That story is so identical to the Zacharias/ baptist story with the only difference was the names and neither Sarah or Abraham was punished for laughing and doubting. And Sarah wasn't even punished for lying saying she "did not laugh". I ask the reader here to read and compare the two so similar versions for themselves, should they even care to know.
Luke 1:5-25
Genesis 18:9-16
It is my belief that Zacharias wasn't "struck dumb" at all, but rather, was told to keep his mouth shut. And that Elizabeth wasn't even pregnant at all but had taken on a mother role to a bastard John to pass him off as her own. This is why she "hid away". It was all to do with a sinister plot to take over a future kingship of Jerusalem. I believe the baptist and Jesus were rivals, and that it would all come to a head down at the river Jordan some 30+ years later.
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Occasionally the New Testament often expects its readers to suspend the laws of nature and expects its readers to accept without question what is being conveyed and the conception of John the Baptist is yet another one of those occasions.
The story goes that the old and aged priest Zacharias is going about his priestly duty in the temple one day and out of the blue an "angel" (messenger)appeared to him with news that his old and aged and barren wife will soon be hearing the patter of tiny feet.
And, as would any normal mere mortal, Zacharias queried ;>
Whereby shall I know this? for I am an old man, and my wife well stricken in years.
And for simply asking this obvious question,this poor devout priest who had served his god for years was told;>
And, behold, thou shalt be dumb, and not able to speak,until the day that these things shall be performed, because thou believest not my words, which shall be fulfilled in their season.
Where does Zacharias once call this messenger a liar? he doesn't. Where does this poor priest even doubt this messenger? he doesn't. Where does he even dispute this miraculous event? he doesn't.
The whole story surrounding the Baptist is as strange and puzzling one from start to finish.
So why was this old devout priest Zacharias "struck dumb" and his poor old aged and barren wife forced to "hide herself away"?
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@ethang5
If you know John had already been beheaded, are you lying when you claim John was still alive?
I am questioning the chronological order of Marks version of events. And you know I was. You submit "past tense" to Marks unfathomable version.
So tell me why would Mark need to speak in a past tense?
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@ethang5
And there is a Math 16.17. Read slowly.
talk about "confusion"!!!!
WHAT ABOUT "MATH 16:17?
It has no bearing whatsoever on the subject matter of Herod and the beheading of the baptist.
Matthew 16:17-20 King James Version (KJV)
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.
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@ethang5
The only thing youhave shown is that you don't know what past tense means in language. If Herodsays, "whom I have beheaded", that means he has already beheaded him.
I know, here read for yourself MARKS gospel>>>
Mark 6:16 But when Herodheard thereof, he said, It isJohn, whom I beheaded: he is risen from the dead.
And it also means that MARKS gospel has him saying this before hisbirthday and the request of Salome his step daughter.
There is no17 in Mark gospel, and I am only concerned with Marks gospel. You insisted Ihad Mark and Matthew confused. I am not confused. This is about Marks sequence ofevents, stop trying to weasle and worm your way out of the glaring anomaly in MARKS gospel as there are in ALL of the four gosples.. out of it. If I was really being sarcastic and "obtuse" I could have asked - how many friggin heads did John the Baptist actually have?
John was dead Einstein,
Indeed and Mark says so and has JOHN DEAD BEFORE Herod’s birthday bash.
I will continue tobelieve the Bible thank you.
I don’t doubt that for a second.
According you you, Jesus= lord of lords = Jesus is god =Jesus is god of gods although you say there is only one god.
The confusion is all yours, ethang5
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@ethang5
the Bible was going into the past, which is why it used the past tense through out.
Why do that? It didn't need to use "past tense" at all. Your problem is that I have shown you a glaring anomaly and contradiction in Mark.
First you accused me of getting two gospels mixed up. When I showed you and proved to you that I wasn't and showed you the original written sequence in MARK , then, just as I expected, you come up with the BS excuse for this anomaly.
this is where your ignorance kicks in.......Verse 17 then goes into the past,You are confused. The different gospel books are writing about the same story, not citing a new story.
Now who is being IGNORANT!? THERE IS NO MARK 17!!!!!!!! NOW WHO IS "CONFUSING" TWO GOSPELS????
You are correct, I am not dumb. Any scribe worth his salt would not have started this story with a haunting. Why would Mark talk of a haunting well before John was dead. And IF there was a "verse 17" to the gospel of MARK what would be the point of writing of John's arrest AFTER the haunting and BEFORE John's beheading? Your excuse is utter rubbish and you are clutching at straws here, and you know it.
Surely, common sense would have the sequence _ John is arrested, John is beheaded and John haunts herod. AND NOT - John haunts Herod, John is beheaded and John is arrested? the sequence is backwards and inside out with absolutely no reason for it to be.
My point is - and you are well aware - is that the scriptures true or not, are a jumbled mess of vague half stories, anomalies, hints and contradictions that are confusing unless they are studied in depth and not just read and believed at first glance as you and many others seem to have done and do or simply because you have been told this is the truth.
I am not questioning your faith, I believe that you believe these sometimes strange anomalous and contradictive stories. This is not a personal attack on you or your faith, so try and separate the difference between me scrutinising and questioning the scriptures without calling me names and trying to have me down as a troll and of being obtuse, just because I see these scriptures from a different angle and point of view.. I am a thinker, I am a questioner, I am a scrutinizer and I do know the scriptures pretty well and i know they are a jumbled mess that have to be studied and scrutinized and simply not just believe through sheer faith. And YOU Christian, shouldn't hold that against me.
I simply do not accept your excuse for the great anomaly in Mark's gospel concerning Herod and the beheading of the Baptist. And you should accept that Marks version of events simply cannot be true.
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@Mopac
Christianity is Truth worship. It is all about the personal relationship one has with The Truth
Don't be so ridiculous!. Since when did Christianity or religion come to that, believe itself to have the monopoly on the truth. One doesn't have to be a Christian to understand and know what truth is. Atheists can be perfectly morally clean living and hold truth above all things.
You are just bible bashing once more and taking the religious moral high ground. You have no more understanding of the truth than does the truth of a wild animal who knows it can eat or be eaten.
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@Mopac
but you can spend an entire life studying the bible.
One can indeed. But you seem to be very shallow in what you have "studied".
I am very well studied.
Then I am sure you will agree that in this day and age of super technology , it is very hard to test someone's acclaimed knowledge on matters such as the Bible and religion as a whole, where answers to most of the common and obvious questions usually asked are at the end of a mouse for the one being questioned. Whereas the more deeper, better thought-out questions become far too deep & difficult for many christians to answer. There is also context that can become difficult.
I for example read the baptism of Jesus as a serious and perhaps deadly confrontation at the river Jordan between John and his cousin Jesus. Whereas someone like yourself beyond doubt reads it as you have been taught/told to read it , that being, John being submissive and believing himself someone not worthy to tie the sandals of Jesus.
Jesus never did explain where John had got his authority from , did he? Yet John continued to gather disciples of his own.
There are a lot of people who are very well studied too who have radically different views.
I believe I am one of those. I believe that the Christ ( christos = amointed) existed, I believe that he believed he was a rightful king AND priest, I believe he was of one of many noble bloodlines. I believe that if he was a messiah , he failed miserably at the mission of what was believed and expected of a messiah and I also believe there were more than one SO CALLED god who left this earth thousands of years ago.
I am not religious in the slightest . And I believe that some of these so called gods were more benevolent than others. This is why we can clearly see a difference between the so called god of the Old Testament & the New Testament. Is that radical enough for you.
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@ethang5
So until you mention a contradiction, there isn't one.
Ok. To those who are reading here. Read this exchange and spot the glaring contradiction between these two posters.
Post 50--> @ethang5
Jesus is referred toas the Lord of Lords. As in, the Lord to whom other Lords bow.
reader lease note "other lords" plural
Post 59--> @ethang5
I suspect Jesus waited for His mission to be completed and all things placed under Him to assume the title, Lord of Lords......
Again above we have the Plural " Lord of Lords"
Are you asking if Jesus is God? The answer is yes......
Here above we have ethan5 informing us that Jesus, lord of lords (plural)is also god.
Jesus is God, as such He is superior to everything and everyone,
And above, once more, he makes it perfectly clear to all those reading here that jesus is god.
Post 63 Paul to >.
Added: 09.13.18 10:13AM
--> @Paul wroteyou, I think Jesus is Lord is the same as saying Jesus is God, it just makes a lot more sense.Jesus is God does not divide God separate entities which has the advantage of avoiding any implications of polytheism.
"Avoiding polytheism" i.e.that there maybe more than one god.<<<<<< keep that in mind, reader.
and at Post 66--> @ethang5 agrees with Paul's deductions
Exactly.There is only one God. Always has been only one,and always will be only one.
Post 69 ethang5 wrote;
Jesus was God, the bible says so, and you cannot change that.
Paul at post 63 stumbles blindly into a contradiction. And at post 66 ethang5 simply contradicts himself and paul. Ethang at post 66 also has contradicted posts50&59&69
If as BOTH these members agree that Jesus = Lord + Lord of Lords and that the Lord Jesus is God this would, by default. mean that Jesus is god of gods PLURAL. But we have it above in many quotes from ethang5 that there is "ONLY ONE GOD"?
ethan5 appears to be a man who simply wants it both ways, a man who literally wants his cake and eat it.
UNLESS,of course, he reads and believes the Old Testament which clearly shows on many occasions that there are indeed more than “ONE GOD”. Second thoughts, that wouldn’t help him either, because he would have to retract his statement that “there is only one god”. Deary me, ethan5 is in a dilemma
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@ethang5
You are confused. The different gospel books are writing about the same story, not citing a new story.
No, it seems it is you and MARK who are confused and cannot get their story straight.They are not different writers to the main event. I only mentioned Matthew along with MARK concerning Johns perceived return because they both agree that Herod believed Jesus was John had come back i.e. “Risen from the dead”
It is you who is exceptionally confused. Iwill highlight for you the one single gospel of MARK!
But when Herod heard thereof, [Jesus] he said, It is John, whom I beheaded: he is risen from the dead. Mark 6:16.KJV.
So here at Mark 6:16KJV we have MARK telling us that Herod had beheaded JOHN and that Herod believedJesus was JOHN “risen from the dead”. SO HERE AT 6:16: JOHN IS DEAD!
And STAYING WITH the SAME gospel of MARK! It is not until we get to the Birthday party for HEROD at MARK 6:21 of THE SAME GOSPEL of MARK!!!!!! We find John tucked up in his cell for the night.
Read it for yourself ethang5 take particular note of V27, HERE>>>
21 And when a convenient day was come, that Herod on his birthdaymade a supper to his lords, high captains, and chief estates of Galilee;
22 the daughter of the said Herodias came in, and danced, and pleased Herod and them that sat with him, the king said unto the damsel, Ask of me whatsoever thou wilt, and I will give it thee.
23 And he sware unto her, Whatsoever thou shalt ask of me, I will give it thee, unto the half of my kingdom.
24 And she went forth, and said unto her mother, What shall I ask? And she said, The head of John the Baptist.
25 And she came in straightway with haste unto the king [HEROD], and asked, saying, I will that thou give me by and by in a charger the head of John the Baptist.
26 And the king [HEROD] was exceeding sorry; yet for his oath's sake, and for their sakes which sat with him, he would not reject her.
27 And immediately the king [HEROD] sent an executioner, and commanded his head to be brought:and he went and beheaded him in the prison,
28 And brought his head in a charger, and gave it to the damsel: and the damsel gave it to her mother.
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@ethang5
When you can state a problem, I'll be willing to listen to it. Until then, you have a nice day hear?
And when you can't point out your own glaring contradictions I will point them out for you. Until then, you too have a nice day Ethag5, may your lord of all other lords go with you.
There is only one God.
Not going by your own comments there isn't.
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@ethang5
The bible says Jesus is God. I happen to agree.
I thought so.
The bible tells us that Jesus is the Lord of Lords. I just happen to know this is, in fact, true.I believe the bible. I find it far, far more credible than you. So, to your questions, yes and yes.
Thank you. Then I suggest you go back on this thread at least to post 50 and start reading what you in particular have wrote up until your post 66.. here is what you wrote;>
There is only one God. Always has been only one, and always will be only one.
?????
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@ethang5
Ok. Let me get this correct ethang5. You are saying Jesus is God. Yes or no?
You also tell us Jesus is Lord of Lords. Yes or no?
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@Paul
I think Jesus is Lord is the same as saying Jesus is God
He was no more a god than your local priest. Come to that Jesus was no more a god than YOU! But Christians are entitled to their silly wishful thinking that this "Son of Man"JEWISH RABBI was a god. And, incidentally, it was only one person that claimed him to be "SON of a god" ,which is something else he himself never claimed to be either. In fact when it was suggested to him that he was the son of god, he told the teller, never to repeat it again.
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@Mopac
Here they are again. You will notice I add a question every time you fail to answer>>
(1) post 30
Is baptism a ritual of cleansing of one's sins?
(2) post 36
If God and Jesus are the same, having the same mind, knowledge and power, then why would Jesus beg himself in the garden of Gethsemane, to spare himself from having to be crucified? Furthermore, why would Jesus ask himself why he has forsaken himself by allowing himself to be crucified?
(3) post 38
John the Baptist died twice, how did that happen?
(4) post 46
Why didn't Jesus resurrect his cousin John the Baptist as he is said to have done so with his friend Lazarus?
(5) post 55
Why didn't Jesus cure leprosy instead of just the ten lepers in Luke's gospel ?
(6) post 59
Why did Mary salute Elizabeth? KJV Luke 1:40
(7) post 65
At the crucifixion of Jesus, all the other gospels have it that the women were standing and “looking from afar”, whereas John's gospel however has them within speaking distance. Which one is correct?
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@Mopac
Not that I can't,
You can't answer those very legitimate questions simply because you haven't studied the bible especially the New Testament. If you had, then these questions wouldn't be a problem for you. Is all you have done is listened and took at face value what someone has taught or preached to you without question. Then preached the same to others. You are no different from the gullible goatherd muslim Afghanistani, who will believe anything he is told.
Let me tell you this, I can answer those questions I have posed you, I wouldn't be dumb enough to ask you something I believed I couldn't answer honestly.
You were far too quick to accuse me first of not even reading the bible and then to accuse me of not understanding it. You took the moral high ground without even finding out what it is I know or don't know. But it didn't stop you trying to lord it over me and by the looks of it Paul too. This is typical of a jumped up moralistic bible basher who has no time for anyone who he believes His is faith being questioned. I am not questioning your faith , I am questioning the scriptures and I belive it is giving you uncomfortable food for thought. Your a child who has taken guidance from another who also needs guidance, but as Jesus said, "and if the blind lead the blind, both will fall into a pit" . So I am happy for to let the blind lead the blind.
Here they are again. You will notice I add a question every time you fail to answer>>
(1) post 30
Is baptism a ritual of cleansing of one's sins?
(2) post 36
If God and Jesus are the same, having the same mind, knowledge and power, then why would Jesus beg himself in the garden of Gethsemane, to spare himself from having to be crucified? Furthermore, why would Jesus ask himself why he has forsaken himself by allowing himself to be crucified?
(3) post 38
John the Baptist died twice, how did that happen?
(4) post 46
Why didn't Jesus resurrect his cousin John the Baptist as he is said to have done so with his friend Lazarus?
(5) post 55
Why didn't Jesus cure leprosy instead of just the ten lepers in Luke's gospel ?
(6) post 59
Why did Mary salute Elizabeth? KJV Luke 1:40
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@Mopac
Your John the baptist argument is the.best proof that you don't actually understand what you are talking about.
No, what it means is that you cannot explain away why it is that John The Baptist's seems to have died twice according the jumbled mess of the scriptures.
Herod believes John is dead initially and he believes Jesus is John incarnate and has " come back to haunt him". It is there to be read and is undeniable. That fact is also attested to by TWO of the Gospel tellers, Mark and Matthew. Then we proceed to Herod's birthday party where Herod sends out the executioner to behead John on the whim of the dancing bint Salome.
You are struggling to explain away this BS so instead tell me I don't read the Bible and or I don't understand it and eventually fall back on the old favourite of someone who is stumped in his own field of expertise and accuse me of " causing trouble".
Here they are again. You will notice I add a question every time you fail to answer>>
(1) post 30
Is baptism a ritual of cleansing of one's sins?
(2) post 36
If God and Jesus are the same, having the same mind, knowledge and power, then why would Jesus beg himself in the garden of Gethsemane, to spare himself from having to be crucified? Furthermore, why would Jesus ask himself why he has forsaken himself by allowing himself to be crucified?
(3) post 38
John the Baptist died twice, how did that happen?
(4) post 46
Why didn't Jesus resurrect his cousin John the Baptist as he is said to have done so with his friend Lazarus?
(5) post 55
Why didn't Jesus cure leprosy instead of just the ten lepers in Luke's gospel ?
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@ethang5
I don't doubt he is "referred" to as lord of lords by many christians, but who is it in the New Testament that actually addresses Jesus directly as "lord of lords".Jesus is referred to as the Lord of Lords. As in, the Lord to whom other Lords bow.
And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. 19:16 Revelation.
Again , I notice, if this a reference to Jesus, it doesn't even mention that he is also a god or a god of gods.
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@ethang5
John the Baptist did not die twice.
Then what a complete jumbled up unreliable mess the scriptures are.
let's read them here>>
It begins with Herod hearing the stories of the wonder workings of Jesus, such as:
“And they went out, and preached that men should repent. And they cast out many devils, and anointed with oil many that were sick, and healed them”.Mark 6:12-13. KJV
Herod’s response is;
“This is John the Baptist; he is risen from the dead; and therefore mighty works do shew forth themselves in him”.Mathew14:2. KJV.
Here then Herod is recognising the now dead John as a doer of “mighty work’s” and harbouring great respect for John but we read nothing in the gospels at all about any miracles i.e. "mighty works" performed by John so what “mighty works” had John done to now be showing themselves in Jesus?
And from Mark;
But when Herod heard thereof, [Jesus] he said, It is John, whom I beheaded: he is risen from the dead. Mark 6:16.KJV.
John the Baptist here then according to both these accounts is dead. We are not told before this point in the bible anywhere that John is dead or how he died but by these accounts we assume he has been beheaded and Herod is frightened, he believes Jesus is John come back to haunt him.
The story goes on to say;
And when a convenient day was come, that Herod on his birthday made a supper to his lords, high captains, and chief estates of Galilee;
And when the daughter[Salome, not even named in the NT ] of the said Herodias came in, and danced, and pleased Herod and them that sat with him, the king said unto the damsel, Ask of me whatsoever thou wilt, and I will give it thee. And he sware unto her, Whatsoever thou shalt ask of me, I will give it thee, unto the half of my kingdom.
And she went forth, and said unto her mother, What shall I ask? And she said, The head of John the Baptist. Remember John is said to be already dead!
And she came in straightway with haste unto the king, and asked, saying, I will that thou give me by and by in a charger the head of John the Baptist.
Herod appears stunned and “sorry” at the request but, up until this point is John the Baptist dead or not? We can then go on to read;
And the king was exceeding sorry; yet for his oath's sake, and for their sakes which sat with him, he would not reject her.
And immediately the king sent an executioner, and commanded his head to be brought: and he went and beheaded him in the prison,
And brought his head in a charger, and gave it to the damsel: and the damsel gave it to her mother.
And when his [John’s] disciples heard of it, they came and took up his corpse, and laid it in a tomb” Mark 6:12-29.
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@Paul
Okay Stephen how about this, tell me one word that could be used in place of the word Lord in the phrase Jesus is Lord that would mean the same thing. Can you do that?
I thought I had already. Jesus was directly called a master, and teacher. So you could replace the word lord with either of those titles.
P.S. Do not confuse what Jesus is referred to as, with what Jesus was actually addressed as in the NT .
One has to understand that it was only some of the higher educated and only Jesus's close educated inner circle who knew who he really was. The rest of the population of Jerusalem in particular didn't have clue who is was.
Matthew even wrote>:
And when he was come into Jerusalem, all the city was stirred, saying, Who is this?
Those of Jesus' lower ranks (the lepers) had to resort to waving palm branches and banging drums and tambourines and shouting out his "name" to attract attention to him. If he had just entered on his mule no one would have taken a blind bit of notice of this saviour messiah teacher master shepherd, would they? This street show could be compared to day with someone waving placards with the face of Nigel Farage shouting vote UKIP.
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How about Jesus is Master does that mean the same thing as Jesus is Lord?
It maywell have done in its time. In the New Testament Jesus is referred to asmaster and teacher and lord but never god. This is what masters, leaders, teachers and lords do, they ' lord it' over those who are less educated and orexperienced in certain matters, simply because they did really 'know better' and could lie to and manipulate those below them.
Beware of the scribes, which desire to walk inlong robes, and love greetings in the markets, and the highest seats in thesynagogues, and the chief rooms at feasts.
What is a scribe? It is someone educated enough to be able to write AND read.
Think of the person convincing a muslim goatherd from the foothills of Afghanistan trying onhis new made to fit suicide suit with the promise of the ten billion virginswho will greet him in paradise. Then ask who would be able to convince someoneto blow themselves up on that silly promise in the 21st century? It would onlybe someone who was a lot more savvy and knowledgeable, wouldn't it .
You have to realise Palestine at the time. The educated were those usually ofthe priesthood and or royalty and or close friends and relatives of both former and latter. They had been educated by the best teachers/masters of the time in places such as Greece and Egypt. The rest of thepopulace were simple uneducated illiterate peasants who worked the land madepots or weaved baskets. This is why those in power could convincingly trick andlie to those of lower status i.e. backward peasants. Jesus/Luke mentions these typesin the NT, here >>;
Beware of the scribes, which desire to walk inlong robes, and love greetings in the markets, and the highest seats in thesynagogues, and the chief rooms at feasts.
What is a scribe? It is someone educated enough to be able to write AND read.
Think of the person convincing a muslim goatherd from the foothills of Afghanistan trying onhis new made to fit suicide suit with the promise of the ten billion virginswho will greet him in paradise. Then ask who would be able to convince someoneto blow themselves up on that silly promise in the 21st century? It would onlybe someone who was a lot more savvy and knowledgeable, wouldn't it .
Now ask yourself, why is it that not a single one of these poor lower illiterate dunces has ever said to the designer and tailor of such a suit - you first-?
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@Mopac
I answered both of your questions already.
Now that is just a blatant lie isn't it. You haven't addressed a single one of these questions below, why is that? Are they too difficult for you, yes you,someone who proclaims to know about the New Testament but insists I haven't even read it.
Here they are again. You will notice I add a question every time you fail to answer>>
(1) post 30
Is baptism a ritual of cleansing of one's sins?
(2) post 36
If God and Jesus are the same, having the same mind, knowledge and power, then why would Jesus beg himself in the garden of Gethsemane, to spare himself from having to be crucified? Furthermore, why would Jesus ask himself why he has forsaken himself by allowing himself to be crucified?
(3) post 38
John the Baptist died twice, how did that happen?
(4) post 46
Why didn't Jesus resurrect his cousin John the Baptist as he is said to have done so with his friend Lazarus?
You aren't really interested in hearing the answers I give you
I am , I just don't agree with what you are saying. I have said jesus failed at his mission as messiah, that wasn't a question, it was a statement of fact. If you don't agree then you should say why. That is debate, that is discussion.
You have quite clearly stated that you will try to answer bible related questions to the best of your ability, so why haven't you even tried to answer my questions.
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@Mopac
The point of Jesus was to fulfill all of the messianic prophecies
And he failed as a messiah in my opinion because he was just an educated royal priest/ king. i.e. a man of royal birth who was born into the line of David and the high priesthood on his mother's side. You need to study what is meant by messiah and what it meant to be a messiah and what was expected of a messiah.
And you have still failed to answer two questions now after saying you will answer biblical related questions. why is that?
here they are again. You will notice I add a question every time you fail to answer>>
(1) post 30
Is baptism a ritual of cleansing of one's sins?
(2) post 36
If God and Jesus are the same, having the same mind, knowledge and power, then why would Jesus beg himself in the garden of Gethsemane, to spare himself from having to be crucified? Furthermore, why would Jesus ask himself why he has forsaken himself by allowing himself to be crucified?
(3) post 38
John the Baptist died twice, how did that happen?
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@janesix
I think we've answered this like 200,000 times.
I thought this was a new forum, jannesix
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@Mopac
it isn't as relevent as you think it is.
Ok so let's get back to the original question asked by Paul. - Is Jesus lord.
I say yes, but not a god. I have explained why I believe jesus wasn't a god. You on the other hand have failed to prove jesus was/ IS a god.
And there is this you seem to now want to avoid>.
If you actually care to get answers, I will help you to the best of my ability. As long as you are asking questions about the bible,
You have already failed twice now to answer one question put to you so what about this one>;
If God and Jesus are the same, having the same mind, knowledge and power, then why would Jesus beg himself in the garden of Gethsemane, to spare himself from having to be crucified? Furthermore, why would Jesus ask himself why he has forsaken himself by allowing himself to be crucified?
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@Mopac
What mesopotamian stories and myths did the prophets come from?
examples: The biblical creation story & flood story are re-telling of Mesopotamian epics, Babylonian in particular. They were picked up during the Babylonian captivity and wrote down, re told & passed off as Hebrew/Israelite history. They are not Biblical Hebrew, Israelite of even Jewish ORIGINALS, they are lifted straight from the Mesopotamian epics that were wrote THOUSANDS of years before the Bible was even thought of. You need to do a bit more reading otherwise you will remain the dunce you are now for the rest of your life.
You are making this up, or repeating something someone else made up.
I would like you to prove I have made anything up. Mind how you struggle.
If you actually care to get answers, I will help you to the best of my ability. As long as you are asking questions about the bible,
You have avoided my question you said you would answer concerning the bible.
Is the reason for baptism to cleans one of their sins?
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@Deb-8-a-bull
So you just chose your religion?
No. Muslims are "born" muslims if their parents are muslim. Christians are baptised or Christened by their parents, but they can leave their parent allotted religion for any other religion without fear of being killed or a death sentence hanging over them, something that a muslim cannot do i.e. a muslim cannot leave Islam without the punishment of death hanging over them.
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@Mopac
Jesus is The Truth.The Truth is king.
Jesus told a few lies and it depends on what and whose "truth" sounds more truthful. As Pontius Pilate said- "what is truth".
Guilty people get found not guilty & innocent people are found guilty because someone's "truth" was more convincing than someone else's "truth". You really need to grow up.
You live in the 21st century now, your not living in 1st century Judea and unless you understand what was going on in such places as Palestine and Galilee at the time of the Christ, you will never, EVER understand a damn thing about the New Testament and the life of the Christ and so called "messiah".
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