Total posts: 12,563
-->
@Shila
The women gave their reasons for not reporting, they did not consider rape as important enough to punish for and even basically pointless to even report rape. Why would they need to make excuses when they are being quoted.
Its obvious that many women dont consider rape as a big deal, some even gain pleasure from it. I think they just cant say it openly in the survey.
"It might be assumed that victim experiences of sexual violence are characterised by fear and pain, and while this is true for many, the phenomenology of sexual violence is more complex than this. Increasingly, sexuality research is recognising that people can desire and have a positive regard toward sexual encounters that they do not consent or agree to, however there is limited scholarship examining victim experiences of pleasure or arousal during sexual violence. This article presents a thematic analysis of 50 posts describing the experience of arousal and/or pleasure during sexual violence drawn from Reddit, the popular online discussion board."
Created:
-->
@bronskibeat
You did cite research in #4 and #7. It seems like you were attempting to form some sort of an argument around these statistics, and now you're backtracking.
The argument is simple. If you think everything what people say in surveys is true, then it is true that many women are guilty of own rape, many feel that rapist shouldnt be punished, and many have rape fantasies and gain pleasure when being raped. Do you concede to all these?
And I'm not arguing that some women don't have rape fantasies, just that having rape fantasies doesn't mean that a woman would want to be raped in real life.
When her favorite thing to imagine sexually is being raped, one must doubt that she wouldnt want to realize her favorite thing.
They are not assumptions, they're based on collected data which are cited in the studies that I linked to.
They all depend on surveys. You cant read people's minds, thus they are just assumptions.
You keep repeating the same thing, and then ignoring what I wrote. Yes, guilt means they feel they are responsible in some way for what happened to them, but it doesn't mean that they were responsible in any way.
It means they probably think they are responsible, and you say you agree with them.
And as I've already pointed out, people who experience sexual arousal from rape, do not experience it as "pleasurable."
Arousal and orgasms are both pleasurable.
If you don't answer the question, I'll take it as a win.
You can take it as a win. You failed to respond to the argument of how having reasons to want A doesnt mean you dont want A.
Only when it pertains to children. Do you disagree?
Sure, I disagree.
Created:
-->
@bronskibeat
I cited statistics from the U.S. Department of Justice, Bureau of Statistics. What do you think statistics are?
You cited surveys from people about their mind and opinions.
I think dismissing research, studies, and data based on the premise that participants could have been lying is a logical fallacy, yes.
When your whole evidence depends on assumption that those people are telling the truth about their mind, then me pointing out that they can lie destroys your entire evidence. So can people lie? Make up your mind. If people cant lie, then everything I say is true. If people can lie, then your whole evidence is based on assumption and blind hope that they told the truth.
Created:
-->
@Savant
Well, except for everything else that's been tried.
Dictatorships worked for over 10000 years and it works today too.
Democracy was around for barely 300 years and it already turned to shit every country it was implemented in.
America is stronger.
Incorrect. China builds more ships in a month than USA does in a year. Russia produces more artillery than USA and Europe combined. North Korea in just few months sent more artillery to Russia than USA and Europe did to Ukraine in whole year.
Also quality of life is a more important metric.
The quality of life is really irrelevant if that same quality destroys future generations through low birth rates. Sure, everyone has more money and can have more things when not having children, but then the country eventually goes to shit. Japan and South Korea are best examples of "democracy gone to shit". Highest life standards in the world, yet average woman cant afford to have even one kid. Good job. Plus, these democracies arent exactly famous for giving people what they want. Hence the highest suicide rates in the world.
Created:
-->
@bronskibeat
This is what you said in your first post: "What if girl told you she wants sex, but she actually lied and didnt want it? Then you are a rapist without even knowing it."
Thanks for repeating what I said.
What do you mean when you "didn't want it." What is "it" referring to?
Wow
How is that a logical fallacy?
Its an assumption that superior wisdom and experience of one can negate the ability to consent of another.
Created:
-->
@bronskibeat
I already supplied examples of why victims experience guilt.
Assumption =/= example
I don't know how you're jumping from "experiencing guilt" to "enjoying rape."
Guilt for own rape by definition means they are feeling bad for causing themselves to be raped. Are their words true there?
Also, you already conceded that some women orgasm and feel pleasure from rape.
Where did you get that from?
From the survey you posted. Does math confuse you?
As my other sources point out: Victims typically believe that it's "pointless" or "not worth" reporting rape because it's not a guarantee they would be believed, or that they won't face some sort of negative fall-out as a result.
They also think they are guilty for own rape. Is that true too, or do you only pick from their words what you like?
Created:
-->
@bronskibeat
Why did you cite research in your earlier posts if you believe that they are diminished by the possibility of someone lying? Do you only believe research when it supports your argument?
I didnt cite actual research. I merely said what many women have said. I didnt even say that I believe them. They say they have rape fantasies. My argument doesnt even depend on their words, but yours does. So their words are either true or not true as a source of information. Take your pick.
Created:
-->
@bronskibeat
I offered statistics, and you ignored them.
Surveys*
Your argument is based on logical fallacy. "The invincible ignorance fallacy,[1] also known as argument by pigheadedness,[2] is a deductive fallacy of circularity where the person in question simply refuses to believe the argument, ignoring any evidence given. It is not so much a fallacious tactic in argument as it is a refusal to argue in the proper sense of the word. The method used in this fallacy is either to make assertions with no consideration of objections or to simply dismiss objections by calling them excuses, conjecture, anecdotal, etc. or saying that they are proof of nothing, all without actually demonstrating how the objections fit these terms."
So you say you can read minds?
You posted a single anecdote from Reddit
You already conceded that women feel guilt and can orgasm from rape. So you agreed with it.
Can't counter logical fallacy.
So you think you can read minds and that people cant lie, and me pointing out opposite is a "logical fallacy"?
Created:
-->
@bronskibeat
You can consent because you don't want to hurt someone's feeling, you can consent because you feel like you should be in a relationship even if you don't want to be in a relationship with the particular person you're with, you can consent because you're friends are all doing it, and you don't want to be left behind, etc. These are bad reasons to have sex with someone, but they are examples of people consenting to sex for reasons other than actually desiring sex with the person.
All of your reasons have word "want" in them, and since having sex achieves what they want, they want sex to achieve what they want.
Nope. When it comes to sex, children and adults are in different categories (I hope you would agree). Adults are expected to have experience and wisdom that children do not have.
So you again concede that consent depends on mind, regardless of your logical fallacy regarding child's experience and wisdom.
Created:
-->
@WyIted
Democracy gave us two world wars and maybe a 3rd one too.
There is no "defense of democracy.".
Democracy has been the worst system ever invented.
It has very much proved that no matter how much you educate masses, a more educated politician will easily fool them.
Masses use feelings, not logic. Most of them cant make a difference between a story and a logical framework.
Logic will always be only available to the 1% of society.
The remaining 99% who have no logic are somehow the ones who are supposed to rule a country and make all decisions?
I will say, a good dictator is ALWAYS better and more effective than any democratic system ever will be.
Democracy is always just majority's intelligence, where smart dictator is above majority's intelligence.
Take North Korea and South Korea. North Korea had 2x smaller population from the start, yet now South Korean population is collapsing and North Korea has almost 3 times higher birth rates. North Korea remains stable and builds military constantly, which is why it is North Korea which has ICBMs and not South Korea. South Korea doesnt even have long range missiles.
Literally all strongest countries on Earth: China, Russia, North Korea, Iran... are all basically total dictatorships.
Democracies are on the edge of collapse.
Democracy destroys birth rates, wastes money and resources, introduces harmful laws based on popular feelings. This isnt exactly great.
Created:
-->
@bronskibeat
- 20% feared retaliation
- 13% believed the police would not do anything to help
- 13% believed it was a personal matter
- 8% reported to a different official
- 8% believed it was not important enough to report
- 7% did not want to get the perpetrator in trouble
- 2% believed the police could not do anything to help
- 30% gave another reason, or did not cite one reason
So basically, 28% of them say they didnt consider rape as important enough to punish the rapist for, and 15% basically say its pointless to even report rape. Is this the survey you want to go with? Because it just agrees with what I said that there is a probability that they wanted it and these are just excuses for not reporting it.
Created:
-->
@bronskibeat
Here is a definition of guilt:
"a feeling of worry or unhappiness that you have because you have done something wrong"
So when someone says she feels she has done something wrong, then do you take that as true, or do your "surveys science" only accept words you agree with?
Created:
-->
@bronskibeat
You continue to wrongly conflate consent with desire. Consent can be motivated by things other than desire.
No, it cant.
Children can't consent because they are children.
Great. So now you apply circular logic.
We don't expect children to have the knowledge or wisdom to be able to make certain decisions for themselves, which is why parents/guardians are often legally required to do so in their place.
So you concede that consent depends on the mind, therefore contradicting your previous claims.
You have no evidence that women secretly "wanted it" or had "mixed feelings" about it.
I dont need evidence, because that wasnt even my claim. I merely claimed that we cant read minds, thus we cant know if they wanted it.
As for your links, they are just surveys which cant be proved true because again, you cant read minds.
Lol. I found it. You got it from a Reddit AMA
You post surveys. I post surveys.
Your argument boils down to: "We can't read minds, and anyone could be lying about anything at any time." It's irrational and paranoid.
So you have no counter argument to my argument.
We can only know what the research shows, and what the research shows is that experiencing arousal during a rape is typically distressing, and not enjoyable for the victim.
By research, you mean surveys which rely on an assumption that people cant lie when they talk. Please stop embarassing yourself by calling that "research".
Created:
-->
@bronskibeat
You didn't link to a source for this quote, could you provide one?
No.
This is called arousal non-concordance, involuntary sexual arousal, and unwanted sexual arousal
We cant know if it is involuntary because we cant read minds. But yeah, feeling pleasure from being raped seems to be as common as percentage of women who have rape fantasies.
Created:
-->
@bronskibeat
There has been exhaustive research on why victims of sexual assault and rape don't often report:
I dont think random incomplete surveys count as research. You could have at least used statistics. But anyway, the quote I posted clearly said they were feeling guilty in most cases. Guilt indicates they did something to make it happen, maybe even wanted it or having mixed feelings.
Created:
-->
@bronskibeat
This is where your whole premise falls apart, and you're ignoring my point: Consent is an action. It is not a feeling.Cambridge English Dictionary:Consent: permission or agreement. https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/consentYou're confusing consent with desire. A woman can consent to sex that she doesn't really want to have, but whether or not something is rape is not contingent solely on whether or not a woman wants to have sex, but whether or not she was forced or coerced into having sex.
It is your premise which falls apart. Consent depends on mind completely. It is not possible to give permission if it doesnt come from the mind. If it doesnt come from the mind, then mind isnt consenting. People think children cant consent because of their mind being the way it is. So if your premise is that consent is just word "Yes", then you concede that children can consent as long as they can say yes. I really enjoy watching people fall in these logical traps I set.
Created:
-->
@bronskibeat
I'm trying to imagine what kind of scenario you think this type of role-play occurs in. Roleplaying happens with consent. A woman isn't going to pretend she doesn't want sex as a vehicle for role-playing if the man she's with in unaware, especially if she doesn't know how the man she's with is going to react. The fact that the man she's with would earnestly want to rape her would likely turn her off of the fantasy..
Sounds like you are making bunch of assumptions you cant prove. But anyway, the point is that man cannot know if he raped a woman, because maybe she consented and just pretended that she doesnt want it to get turned on more by sex. You assume woman wouldnt do this, but you cant read minds.
Created:
-->
@bronskibeat
"Consent does not have to be consistent with personal desire. There are many different reasons someone may consent to sex that they don't want to have, and ultimately the responsibility is on them to deal with that."If she lied, it's on her. Consent is an action (to give permission), not a feeling.
Maybe she lied. You cant read minds. Consent is in the mind, not in the word. Consent cannot happen if woman doesnt want it in her mind, and being able to tell a lie means you can never know if she really consented.
Created:
-->
@bronskibeat
Right, fantasy is not reality. These women don't actually want to be raped in real life.
Again, you cant read minds to even know that, but some statistics are useful to understand better.
What percentage of women report rape?
"This study was designed to determine whether or not more women are reporting sexual assault, and whether or not previously noted theories about why women do not report continue to be valid. The study revealed that only 18% of the adult women's rapes and only 11% of the assaults of children were reported."
"I've assisted more young women than I can count with this very issue. It often comes up at some point during therapy and it's extremely embarrassing or shameful to talk about. However once it's out in the open, the survivor can look at her/his reaction honestly and begin to heal. The shame and guilt around it is a large part of why some rapes go unreported and why there is a need for better understanding in society for how and why this occurs.
There have been very few studies on orgasm during rape, but anecdotal reports and research show numbers from 5% to over 50% having this experience. In my experience as a therapist, it has been somewhat less than half of the girls/women I've worked with having some level of sexual response. (For the record, I have worked with very few boys/men who reported this.)"
There have been very few studies on orgasm during rape, but anecdotal reports and research show numbers from 5% to over 50% having this experience. In my experience as a therapist, it has been somewhat less than half of the girls/women I've worked with having some level of sexual response. (For the record, I have worked with very few boys/men who reported this.)"
Created:
-->
@bronskibeat
"Current research indicates that between 31% and 57% of women have fantasies in which they are forced into sex against their will, and for 9% to 17% of women these are a frequent or favorite fantasy experience. "
Created:
-->
@bronskibeat
If she said she wanted it, then she consented
Maybe she lied. You cant read minds, and consent is in the mind.
Now, if someone is actively pressuring someone into having sex with them, and they keep pushing until the other person "gives in", then that is not proper-consent.
Some women are into roleplaying rape. They pretend they dont want it because it turns them on.
Created:
Okay, rape is defined as sex without consent.
Consent is produced in the mind.
But you cant read anyone's mind.
What if girl told you she wants sex, but she actually lied and didnt want it? Then you are a rapist without even knowing it.
What if she consented for some time, but then during sex she stopped wanting it but didnt tell you? Then you are rapist again.
What makes matters worse is that even rapists cant be sure if they are really rapists. What if a girl said no to sex, but actually wanted it? Then rapist would think he is raping her, but actually she consented in her mind and he isnt a rapist at all.
This is what people mean when they say "She was asking for it."
Woman cant prove that she didnt give consent in her mind, which makes proving or disproving rape impossible.
The only way not to be a rapist is to be a virgin. But even that doesnt have to be true. Virgin men often watch porn. Watching porn contributes to porn production. You cant read minds of women in porn either. You dont know if they actually consented, so by watching porn, you contribute to rape and thus you are rapist.
Maybe you think that you can just watch animated porn. However, contributing to animated porn production can cause those who see it to become rapists, which then makes you responsible for rape.
So the only way man can avoid being a rapist is if he is a virgin and doesnt watch porn. But even that isnt always true. It is possible for man to commit "indirect rape" by causing others to commit rape. We know that free will doesnt exist, and we know that people are shaped by environment. For people around you, you are their environment. You cannot know if you maybe did something or said something in the past which caused the other person to become rapist. Because you cant know the cause-result of human brains and cant know how exactly your words and actions affect minds of others as you cant even read their minds, it follows that your mere existence or presence in people's lives can cause other people to become rapists. This makes you "indirect rapist", which is worse than rapist, because you are causing rape while someone else instead of you is being punished for it.
So how can a man avoid being a rapist? Even if you somehow werent causing any rape by action, you would still be responsible for all the rape you didnt prevent. If you dont work all day to prevent rape, you are then letting rape happen.
Created:
Created:
-->
@Dr.Franklin
God I hate asian religion so much. What fucking dogshit
Quran and Bible both have conceded that magic and spirits are real. Really, 400 years ago, there was no society which didnt believe in magic. Christians even burned innocent women for being witches.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@FLRW
OMG, you have a jacket that says, "I really don't care, do U ?", like Melania does, don't U?
Yes. World is filled with monsters. In order to fight monsters, you have to become a monster. I dont care about anyone. My heart is stone. If there was an end of the world today, then I would say: "Finally, the end of all this nonsense.". Really, who would even care about saving such a shitty world?
Created:
-->
@Shila
Not sure why you like making people braindead.
Created:
-->
@Shila
You would be a candidate for lobotomy.
There is transformation magic which turns people into hollows or hollowgasts. Its basically same as lobotomy, really. Turns person braindead. I wouldnt recommend it, tho.
Created:
-->
@Shila
You would be a candidate for lobotomy.
Anyone who thinks that lobotomy is beneficial should get one.
Created:
-->
@Castin
Yes. Rewiring isnt easy.
Created:
-->
@Castin
I have been taking pills for years, but they dont really help much with depression mixed with anger. I also tried being a Christian, but I dont like the belief system there at all.
Created:
-->
@Castin
I do need something to heal my broken brain and heart, and pills and science arent really working, so one must resort to the only thing thats left: magic.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@ghostsenatus
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@ghostsenatus
I think debating in forum is better, by the way.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@ghostsenatus
Does anyone know how I can enter "open" debates, accept challenges, or something of that nature?
There are standard debates and rated debates. You can accept standard ones. For rated, you first have to complete about 3 standard debates.
Or just start your own standard debate with topic and maybe definitions.
Created:
Okay, I downloaded 3 levels of Reiki.
I really want to start drawing symbols on paper and stick them everywhere in the house so maybe I can achieve even greater magic.
Reiki has 5 elements: Fire, Earth, Water, Air, Spirit.
The first 4 are easy to gather, but Spirit is very difficult and must be gathered using combination of wish, thoughts, imagination, drawings, writings, offerings...ect.
I am glad I finally started Reiki, following the steps of one user here who gave me great inspiration.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Greyparrot
Have you had anyone young and close that died from drugs? I have.
No, not really. So I guess these drug problems dont affect me so I dont need to care.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Greyparrot
I dont care if people do drugs. Its their life. People have a right to self harm and people even in many cases have a right to harm others as long as harm isnt significant enough to cause it to become illegal. Driving a car above 20 mph kills much more people, but you dont really see anyone care much about it. People dont care about harm, so using harm as argument is contradicting to people's standards.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Sidewalker
There is literally no non-rebuttable non-emotional reason to think RemyBrown is not a pre-teen.
He is very evil for a 9 year old.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@RemyBrown
Then your mind is unchangeable
Yes. My heart is stone.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Mall
So you are troll that keeps doing this.
I have broken almost every rule on this site.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Shila
You now have members agreeing with you.
Yeah. Its a fact.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Mall
Why is the tag "children"?
Children are banned on debate art.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Mall
it is you, you are busted. You have been called out as a coward.
I have already conceded that I am a coward and a retard. I dont see how this affects me.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Yassine
I guarantee you raise the average IQ here, & probably the ones telling you the opposite do the opposite.
Thanks, but still, I will post less anyway. I think I need a break from this site to research higher knowledge.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Shila
Makes you want to dance, doesn’t it?
Yes.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@IlDiavolo
Thats a fun video lol
Created: