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@bsh1
B.L.T.,
If elected, will you be throwing the others in prison as some of your supporters demand, or will they possibly become part of your cabinet?
B.T.T.,
Same question.
B.R.T.,
Same question.
B.O.T.,
Same question.
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@drafterman
Why did you [orogami] choose to lie detect Mharman rather than any of the numerous posts I've made since I'm the one who is the most contentious right now?
I lie detected him (Mharman), when there was a very clear statement of actions and a role claim, and he was otherwise very close to getting lynched. Had he been lying, I would have used my two votes to finish him off.
Now to get caught up on the rest of the posts from last night...
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(the following contains no updates, I just like the quick reference being quickly available)
READS
TOWN
8. oromagi Tony Stark(IRON MAN) NP action (verified)
3. Ragnar Clint Barton (HAWKEYE) ODD VIGILANTE
11. A-R-O-S-E no name! (WASP) WEAK HIDER
7. warren42 Scarlet Witch ORACLE (special)
9. drafterman no name! (HULK) BULLETPROOF
5. WaterPhoenix Heimdall (HEIMDALL) WATCHER
6. Mharman mantis? (MANTIS) 50% ROLEBLOCKER
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@Speedrace
unvote
ill be back around midnight if my plans tonight don’t go long
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@drafterman
@Mharman
@oromagi
@Speedrace
@A-R-O-S-E
ATTENTION: This is a counter claim. Drafterman’s bulletproof claim is BS. Why? Because I am Mantis,, a town 50/50 role-blocker. Last night I roleblocked Drafterman, stopping the NK.
So he’s telling the truth, at least so far as can be determined. I used a power. I do not know if I wholly trust the logic, but he’s truthful.
I just confirmed my double vote will not conclude it, so I fee safe letting someone experienced decide the outcome (or to tell me to switch where I’m voting)
VTL Drafterman
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@drafterman
Ragnar could validate his power by hammering
my second power would be wasted if I did that right now. If Oro says to waste it sure, but not until then or at least when I’m on a computer instead of a cell phone to look for the best place to use it
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@oromagi
@A-R-O-S-E
Arose, I have an extra power today, so best to not move to fast right now... Also my kill ability is limited to odd nights, so tonight I'm powerless.
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@Mharman
Would you please concisely state your character name, role, and affiliation? Without this, I'll likely be leveraging two more votes against you. You're the only blank slate right now, and it's eerie.
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@oromagi
I don't think I've ever seen a player with as much power as you have right now. Enjoy.
If only I knew how to use it. If you see something, please nudge me toward it.
On that note, I will be pretty busy the rest of the day (not to be confused with the whole day phase). I'm happy to stop in and quickly follow directions, but such will be from my phone, so my words will be brief and poorly formatted.
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@Greyparrot
pretty sure it isn't revealed until the end of the day, but stillDid the mod tell you this? Honestly this isn't laid out in my PM and I haven't asked Speed yet.
Yeah. We we allowed to just quote PMs? Anyway, just double checked and it was specified as not revealed until end of DP.
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@Greyparrot
@Wylted
@Speedrace
Parrot wanted a test vote to verify his power (pretty sure it isn't revealed until the end of the day, but still), but I would vote this way anyway...
VTL Wylted.
...
Anyone else remember his blatant over reaction during the last DP when Cog committed suicide?
Also that guy is a cuck. His wife commanded him to go to bed and he did. I put my bitch to bed, not the other way around.
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READS
TOWN Character: Role:
8. oromagi Tony Stark(IRON MAN) NP action (verified)
************
3. Ragnar Clint Barton (HAWKEYE) VIGILANTE
9. drafterman [core] .
10. SupaDudz ??? .
4. ILikePie5 ??? .
5. WaterPhoenix ??? .
6. Mharman ??? .
7. warren42 (no ep. film) ORACLE (special)
11. A-R-O-S-E [not important] .
**************
X .Cogent Cognizer Stephen Strange (DR STRANGE) GOVERNOR
SCUM
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@Greyparrot
@ILikePie5
@oromagi
@WaterPhoenix
@A-R-O-S-E
Good morning. Damn you were all very busy last night and early this morning... As for why I was not active, it was a Friday night, to which I was out until about 2am. This was followed up by one of my favorite activities which I like to spend about 8 hours doing every night...
He was decently active last DP, idk why he’s not doing the same this DP.
Sleep.
You don't have to verify me. Rag will have 2 votes today. ... the role is already easily verifiable with a test vote from Ragnar.
Greyparrot is verified. I am still uneasy about the May Parker claim (non-avenger, not even affiliated...), but pretty sure we can trust the town claim. I'll do a test vote in my next post.
I [oromagi] also gave Ragnar my NP benefit.
oromagi is also verified. Actually with a visit from Tony Stark and his goatee, it might explain what kept me busy all night 😙
Why would Ragnar target [A-R-O-S-E] first?
Because I think he's scum. I genuinely tried to kill him. The only other user I think is scum (and not a verifiable role) basically outed himself last night, so is too obvious to waste my limited quiver on.
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So a great debate from others which could do with at least one more vote to break the tie (in either direction... I dislike that mine moved it back to the tied range): Firing Squad is the best form of capital punishment.
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@bsh1
About 8-10 days until the first stage is launched.
Which of his testicles just wrote that, and what do they have planned for "the first stage"?
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--> "Alpha Wolf"
Your questionable literacy is showing again, as I did not mandate laziness, rather I insisted they still "make [their] own case." But you think the real laziness would be the side that writes as much as a whole third of their argument...
Your inability at math is also showing again, given that you think the number of words available leads to the regular occurrence of coincidental identical paragraphs from different authors of different upbringings ("doesn't mean every single argument couldn't and wouldn't come from them in such wording as well").
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Call out the BS, make your own case (even a two sentence one will beat that), and then go for ice cream.
A good rule of thumb is that quotes should never exceed one third of someone’s arguments, otherwise they are failing to give their own proper analysis. Plus if the quotes are not clearly marked, it’s basically plagiarism. I recently added a plagiarism section to near the end of the style guide, as it’s been such a recurrent problem.
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@Vader
Ugh you K debaters are really something
I absolutely would not define myself as a K debater. My primary tactic has always been to engage with the evidence, even on troll debates. My primary interest in them began about six months ago, when my opponent specified a "No kritiks" rule, but I identified their case as an institutional Kritik in excess to the scope of the debate.
an entire K debate about why Greece should control modern civilization
I have not done live debate, so I may be missing context... Were that initiated as a debate here, I would not call that a K, but merely a trollish resolution. Usually a Kritik would be if you pulled that one out of left field, say on a debate about taxation policy in Australia, and you ignored it to talk about how Greece should rule the world (which I would call "far off topic and ... non-sequitur").
Acceptable K's are only Neolib K's
I disagree. As stated in the second paragraph of the guide, "...some debate types mandate Kritiks; countering truisms for example." Or if someone has defined a word badly or unfairly, you probably want to run a semantic kritik against said definition in favor of your own. If someone argues X is greater than Y, a value based kritik can be leveraged to show they're not comparable. So there's a lot of good times to use the tool, the important thing is to use the tool without becoming a complete tool.
some K's are so stupid
Agreed. Have you skimmed through the guide yet? I call an entire category of Kritiks: "merrily presented Word Salad or Argumentum ad tl;dr."
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Can we really consider voting for his LEFT testicle given its ties to the Clinton Foundation?
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@Vader
Thank you for being the first user to run a Discourse and Institutional Kritik against the Kritik Guide.
Were I a noob having a debate with you on whatever topic, I would turn to the section of Handling Kritiks, and find the following advice: "First look for relevancy issues, as the link is where most K’s fail. Browse over it for common logical fallacies, as these weaken the impact. Etcetera."
The form of a valid Kritik is as follows...
- Analysis: The main complaint, and Kritik introduction.
- Link: What specific element of the opponent’s case it deals with and how.
- Implications: The damage done if the K is ignored.
- Alternative: What better solution does the K suggest? If none, we should use the status quo.
Testing the analysis, it's present: "Kritiks are cop-outs to the actual debate. K Teams are to bad to read topic and do straight policy so they equate nonsense"
The link is self explanatory due to Kritik being in the title of the guide.
The implications are absent, as Kritiks happen anyway; which admittedly gives greater strength to your assertion that those running Kritiks did not read what they are Kritiking.
Finally the alternative to this tool is implied as do nothing (since none was offered), which fails to teach anyone how to identify or dismantle Kritiks, so is a far worse option than having this tool available.
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As I previously soft announced, I've been building a Kritik Guide. Thanks to using Google Docs as a medium, refinements will always be easy to implement, but it's essentially complete. With this, there should no longer be difficultly in answering 'What's a K?'
I'm proud to say it is co-authored by Ramshutu, by far our most active voter and member of the moderation team, whom understands Kritiks far better than I.
Please use this tool for good rather than evil: https://tiny.cc/Kritik
...
Right now editing is set to be open for suggestions. However, at some point in the future I expect to be forced to lock that, and make this thread the suggestion point for any edits.
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@Imabench
@blamonkey
@Vader
@Ramshutu
@PressF4Respect
How much do you all want to bet that Bsh1's jealously of Bsh1's test (and related parts) makes him utilize this rule:
There are no formal criteria for determining who/what can be nominated; however, if I conclude that a nomination is wholly and blatantly incongruous with the purpose of the HOF (that purpose being to highlight good, notable, and/or consequential inductees), I reserve the right to withhold forwarding that nomination to the second stage of the process.
Rigged I tell you, rigged!
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@Cogent_Cognizer
Based on one of your ambitions, I suggest reading the book Invasive Procedures: A Novel by Orson Scott Card.
Anyway, best of luck to you.
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@Imabench
Let's not get too cocky about what wins, as it might be a divided vote between his left, his test, and his prototype.
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@Speedrace
And you have haters?
A few... Hard to avoid while being a particularly active voter, particularly if refusing to trade votes.
Also if you put on a tinfoil hat to block my mind control beams, you'll realize I'm an alt for everyone you dislike (been accused of that so many times), and that I snuck into the government and deleted your freedom of speech (by deleting your vote; which makes no sense to me, doubly so given that I've never had vote deletion powers, and what happens on a privately owned website has nothing to do with the the government impeding your freedoms). ... If you switch accounts, I prove that I'm gang-stalking you by pretending to not know it's secretly you under the new user name. ... Oh just remembered a great one, I somehow altered objective reality to make you look bad, because objective reality and I are a pair of tyrants! lol
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@A-R-O-S-E
I just re-read his post, and you're right. He can assign an extra vote to someone else, not actually cast an extra vote himself.
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@Greyparrot
READS
TOWN
8. oromagi Tony Stark NP action
3. Ragnar Clint Barton .
10. SupaDudz ??? .
4. ILikePie5 ??? .
5. WaterPhoenix ??? .
6. Mharman ??? .
(press to lynch testable role)
11. A-R-O-S-E [not important] .
(press to lynch testable role)
***************
?. drafterman ??? .
SCUM
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THEORETICAL VOTE COUNT
Vote Count
1 Drafter: Pie
5 Cog: Oro, Drafter, Wylted, Mharman, Ragnar
2 Grey: Warren, A-R
1 Press: Water
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I'm still suspicious of any non-Avenger.
Greyparret, please verify your role by sealing this vote.
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@Vader
@ILikePie5
@Mharman
@WaterPhoenix
@A-R-O-S-E
Question for everyone who has not revealed your identity... Are you a member of the Avengers Initiative?
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@oromagi
thx for upgrade
You're welcome. As you probably know from the guides I've written, I really like things to be organized. I also don't have any of this type of thing memorized (skimmed guides on this to discover my guess about the pumpkin being in play, but that's a pretty half assed guess, and I haven't a clue what it would mean in terms of balance ... it's honestly more of a joke that if Tony Stark is in play and is not the pumpkin, he should be next time).
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READS
TOWN
8. oromagi (verifiable?) .
3. Ragnar Clint Barton .
10. SupaDudz ??? .
4. ILikePie5 ??? .
5. WaterPhoenix ??? .
6. Mharman ??? .
(press to lynch testable role)
11. A-R-O-S-E [not important]
(press to lynch testable role)
9. PressF4Respect [core]
***************
?. drafterman ??? .
SCUM
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With Cog mod killed, I no longer know whom to vote for. Who is the least active remaining?
As stated earlier, I’m going to be a bit busy today with that birthday celebration.
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READS
TOWN
8. oromagi (verifiable?) .
3. Ragnar Clint Barton .
10. SupaDudz ??? .
4. ILikePie5 ??? .
5. WaterPhoenix ??? .
6. Mharman ??? .
(press to lynch testable role)
11. A-R-O-S-E [not important]
(press to lynch testable role)
9. CogentCognizer ??? .
[nopost online 3 days ago]
SCUM
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@Wylted
grey parrot [Aunt May] is the obvious target for the NK seeing as how he can extend the game with his role. Whoever is Iron man should be protecting him. If this is based on the cinimatic universe anywayIron man being the one to always save peoples asses, like when he single handedly beat those aliens or single handedly killed that fat fuck in the last movie. scum is probably shit owned by fox like x men or other stupid movies that marvelk fucked up by losing some control
Still, a pretty good assessment.
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@Speedrace
@PressF4Respect
Ah, zombie! ... Actually we still have a couple missing players, so you could talk to Speedrace if you want back in. (not ideal, but it might beat being short on players)Hey guysOh wait I’m ded now nvmBye guys 😵
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@Vader
Where have you been
Sleeping, other forums, applying for jobs, talking a friend through a breakup, getting ready for plans today (got to make a birthday cake and probably mac and cheese for someone's birthday dinner).
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Quick thing for keeping track, does everyone prefer code names or real names on the supers?
Also do we normally maintain one or more layouts in the updates?
OPTION 1:
TOWN
8. oromagi (verifiable?) .
1. GreyParrot May Parker MOTIVATOR (voting)
3. Ragnar Clint Barton .
2. drafterman [core] .
(replaced PressF4Respect)
10. SupaDudz ??? .
4. ILikePie5 ??? .
5. WaterPhoenix ??? .
6. Mharman ??? .
12. Wylted ??? .
7. warren42 (no ep. film) ORACLE (special)
(press to lynch testable role)
11. A-R-O-S-E [not important]
(press to lynch testable role)
9. CogentCognizer ??? .
[nopost online 3 days ago]
SCUM
OPTION 2:
Claims:
1. GreyParrot - Aunt May - Vote Giver
3. Ragnar - Clint Barton (Hawkeye) - ????
7. warren42 - ???? - Oracle
Unclaimed:
2. drafterman
4. ILikePie5
5. WaterPhoenix
6. Mharman
8. oromagi
9. CogentCognizer
10. SupaDudz
11. A-R-O-S-E
12. Wylted
UVC
PressF - 3/7 - ILikePie, AROSE, SupaDudz
GreyParrot - 1/7 - warren4
WaterPhoenix - 1/7 - drafterman
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@Speedrace
Define best and worst? Like the best thing I've taken away and the worst experience I've had?
However you would define them (plus, sometimes the best and worst are the same).
Given your talk of shyness, and at the risk of mansplaining, I'm going to suggest in general answering the question you wish you were given... Okay maybe not taken to the extreme level we see in political debates, but a couple of those might be worth watching to see how it is done by the masters.
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@Vader
It is a slight scum thing to do because it can reveal roles if you fit the puzzle pieces together. Knowing you are a "noob" to mafia, I think this is fair behavior
Perhaps were I Carol Danvers I would have kept it to myself. As is.
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@oromagi
Cogent last online 3 days ago.PressF last online 10 hrs ago.My top vote is still PressF
Both are inactive, but one for much longer. What made you determine PressF over Cogent?
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@Speedrace
Why is it that, when I do an AMA, I get almost 0 questions? :'(
So many smart alec answers come to mind... But honestly, I don't know. I half expected this one to be a complete dud.
When I decided to launch an AMA, I made a few choices about it.:
- First was where to put it; given that there seem to be four places other people use (main forum, personal, people, and misc), I chose the one where I figured people would go to when in the mood for this type of thing (plus I don't have quite enough ago for the main forum... granted, I would not be opposed to them starting there if they were to then be moved to here after a set amount of time).
It being in a lesser forum also minimized likely interaction with haters. - Second was timing; I have had my second big member resource coming out soon (the Kritik Guide), but I saw that my votes were almost high enough for a gold medal (I'm not someone who likes my own posts or other means to gain shinies), so I waited a few days for the medals. Had the admins been doing an AMA right now, I would have waited longer.
- Third was how much to say in the first post; I glanced at a few and saw they usually open with one line, as tempted as I was to open with my life story, I went with just two lines. One was to interest people in site matters, and the other was to allude to my crazy upbringing. Both of these were potential hooks to gain questions.
Any of that help at all?
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@Speedrace
Your profile reads:
I am an aspiring lawyer who is trying to do my best to learn the ins and outs of debate. I am constantly growing and hope to learn a lot on this site. :)
So this raises some questions:
- How far into your legal career are you, and what's the biggest obstacle related to that you've had to overcome?
- Given that you're here "to learn the ins and outs of debate," what are the best and worst lessons on debate this site has taught you?
- What are the best and worst lessons on debate you've learned outside this site?
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Is it wrong that I really want to know everyone's character names? I don't mean roles, just the assigned identities.
TOWN
8. oromagi (verifiable?) .
1. GreyParrot May Parker VOTE GIVER
3. Ragnar ClintBarton .
7. warren42 (no ep. film) ORACLE(special)
[postd]
4. ILikePie5 ??? .
10. SupaDudz ??? .
5. WaterPhoenix ??? .
6. Mharman ??? .
12. Wylted ??? .
11. A-R-O-S-E [not important but "masking"]
(newbie?)
9. CogentCognizer ??? .
[nopost online 2 days ago]
2. PressF4Respect ??? .
[lurking]
SCUM
TOWN
8. oromagi (verifiable?) .
1. GreyParrot May Parker VOTE GIVER
3. Ragnar ClintBarton .
7. warren42 (no ep. film) ORACLE(special)
[postd]
4. ILikePie5 ??? .
10. SupaDudz ??? .
5. WaterPhoenix ??? .
6. Mharman ??? .
12. Wylted ??? .
11. A-R-O-S-E [not important but "masking"]
(newbie?)
9. CogentCognizer ??? .
[nopost online 2 days ago]
2. PressF4Respect ??? .
[lurking]
SCUM
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@Ramshutu
How about the funniest...?
Gosh, back on DDO there were so many great ones; but here there's so very few (we need to have our own classic to compare to Australia Doesn't Exist). It feels like people are afraid to embrace proper troll debates, they even go so far as to deny obvious troll debates are that.
Anyway, my sense of humor is refined in the direction of black humor and general satire. As an example: I fell out of my chair laughing in class at a video of a news interview with a a con artist trying to get people to run up tens of thousands of dollars in credit card debt to take his real estate flipping classes; contrary, I am unlikely to even glance at a meme contest. So I prefer debates which are funny for intelligent reasons, rather than say body humor.
Note: I am also excluding ones which could be construed as hurtful to either participant.
- "The US should invade Africa" by Alec & Virtuoso
It's such a ridiculous idea, but they both treated it with such careful respect as if it were serious. I have deep admiration for their efforts.
I still suspect it was intended for a certain different contender, and I wish Alec and that person would have a followup of "Africa should invade the US." - "Fetuses as a replacement for the USD" by Tiwaz & Ragnar
I really did not want to list any of my own debates as answers to these questions, but for comedy debates I hit a wall.
This was admittedly an anti-choice advocate trying to mock what he thinks women's rights advocates support.
Still, I can pretty much guarantee a great time for anyone who skims it while paying attention to the video sources.
Anyone have any comedy debates they think I should read?
worst?
I will refrain from sharing those. I will however say I loathe it when people try to unduly manipulate voters in the comment section.
Respectfully ask them for deeper analysis on any aspect of the vote, but don't call them names for voting against you (or perhaps worse, calling them names for voting for you but not praisingly enough).
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@oromagi
I had literally just copied that list to paste it here. ... Hopefully we can try to get it into the first or second post on each page for easy reference.
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@Ramshutu
What’s the best argument you’ve seen presented in the site?
I don't know if I could choose one. I just skimmed over ones I've voted on, and came up with a list of literally ten worth considering (I already realize this is overlooking some great ones).
Rather than share a disorganized list, I'm just going to give my favorite from a few random (technically a convenience sample) users:
First an honorable mention:
The first was a debate shows a really well presented pure Semantic Kritik (should I add it as an example in the Kritik Guide?), and the second was unfortunately plagued by technical difficulties, but in it Zed basically captured a mythological unicorn in convincing Virtuoso to finish a debate! (I know it's happened a few times, but it still feels special to me when I see it)
So this is a very long debate (20K characters, with overflow). The level of detail it gets into on some of the individual clauses is beyond what I can hold in my head at one time (and I have a masters in science!). It is a powerful showcase of both users analytical ability, and Oro's level of integrity to reject a free conduct point. ... Second place from them would be "ANTIFA is equivalent to the KKK"; which is a much easier read if looking for an example of their work (not to mention dispelling dangerous misinformation).
Unfortunately ended in forfeiture, but still noteworthy. He picked a president who is generally loathed, and tried to convince the voters to set their bias aside and consider if Nixon's accomplishments can outweigh his blunder and how ingratiated in pop-culture it became. I've multiple times tried to convince them to redo the debate to give it a proper closure. ... "Is Israel a good ally?" is another fine example of both his ability and that of whiteflame's.
This is a weird example, given that it is actually ongoing. The problem is the user in question has so many great starts to debates before his opponents forfeit. This debate is two of this site's main theologians going head to head, with a whole two weeks to construct arguments. With one round left, I am confident it will be memorable. ... His debate "The Earth is flat" is a fine showcase of how to defuse Kritiks.
How about the funniest, and the worst?
I'll answer the first half of this later (I'm at the garage getting my car worked on, and it's ready).
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@DebateArt.com
A more serious suggestion:
I really like the recent addition of vote window closing icon, so two related things:
1. Could we get a forfeiture icon as well? Skimming through a lot of old debates recently, and I think the utility of it would be very well high for the investment (especially since the main functionality already seems to be in place).
2. Could said icons be made visible on the user debate list pages? (likely not, but I figured I would ask)
Given the current setup, one way to compliment this would be making it akin to the unrated icon, which already displays in both locations.
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@zedvictor4
Have you nothing better to be getting on with?
I was peacefully getting on with an AMA. And shall continue to do so (Ram asked me a question which is taking some research, hence the delay).
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@warren42
I'm guessing you're Natasha Romanoff.
A relatively important character, who has not been given their own movie (yet). She also fits having a role not dissimilar to cop.
A relatively important character, who has not been given their own movie (yet). She also fits having a role not dissimilar to cop.
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@oromagi
Clint Barton here.
I've only played a couple games before. I however deeply enjoy Secret Hitler, and strongly suggest Betrayal at House on the Hill.
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Hopefully I'm doing this right, changes are bold (someone mind telling me what the numbers mean?):
TOWN
8. oromagi (verifiable?)
1. GreyParrot Aunt May VOTE GIVER
4. ILikePie5
10. SupaDudz
5. WaterPhoenix
6. Mharman
7. warren42
9. CogentCognizer
12. Wylted
11. A-R-O-S-E [not important but "masking"]
(creepy cryptkeeper)
3. Ragnar Clint Barton
2. PressF4Respect
SCUM
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