Total posts: 3,465
Posted in:
-->
@RationalMadman
A random order within a drop down box, does nothing to assume anything; it is outright breaking away from assumptions.
Created:
Posted in:
During survey design a good idea is to randomize the order of appearance on many demographic questions. While for sex Other would be the third option, having Male and Female display in random order avoids the obvious complaint of one over the other.
Created:
Posted in:
Were there to be a use, sure. As is, we actually have direct communication with the owner of this site, so there's no need for an elected diplomat.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@3RU7AL
Could be an alternative system worth exploring, at least for people who are very civil toward each other.
I suggest finding a couple people to demo it (forums, Google docs, or whatever).
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@DebateArt.com
Suggestions:
- A concede button (done in lieu of a debate round, with any formalities carried out in the comment section if the debaters wish).
- An auto loss on repeated forfeits (say two or more, but > opponent forfeitures), along with an auto draw on repeated equal forfeitures.
The two above could be done a few ways. How I would personally envision it is a using a called function for each one.
Concede (four actions):
- Applies a copy of the function which writes "Forfeited" but instead writing "Conceded"
- Ends the argument period.
- Calls the vote function, casting it as if from user DebateArt.com, giving argument points to the victor and conduct to the loser, with a RFD of "Concession. ... [INSERT ANY LENGTHY EXPLANATION HERE]"
- Ends the voting period (or sets the countdown to 1 second, so that any scripts related to it can run properly).
Forfeiture (a check run at the end of the debate)
- IF(ANY(ConForfeit >= 2, ProForfeit >=2) THEN ... [code for following steps triggered] ... END (the end is a part of it, only triggered if the path is triggered at all, and prevents the rest of the normal code from happening so as to decrease errors)
- IF(ConForfeit = ProForfeit) THEN ... Calls the cast vote function with no points awarded, and an RFD of "Draw due to duel forfeiture." ... Set voting period to 1 second ... END
- IF(ConForfeit > ProForfeit) THEN ... Calls the cast vote function, assigning just the conduct point to Pro, with an RFD of "Forfeiture. ... [INSERT ANY LENGTHY EXPLANATION HERE]" ... Set voting period to 1 second ... END
- IF(ConForfeit < ProForfeit) THEN ... Calls the cast vote function, assigning just the conduct point to Con, with an RFD of "Forfeiture. ... [INSERT ANY LENGTHY EXPLANATION HERE]" ... Set voting period to 1 second ... END
Related to the forfeiture idea, would be the ability to on debate creation setting a forfeit cap to automatically end the debate. This would be a stored variable to be tested against after each forfeited round (added to the existing script there). This would +1 to their forfeit count to the loser (trust me), followed by the end argument period script.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@EtrnlVw
What you want is "Deluded," to be treated as "Nazi." This seems unlikely.
Let's say pulling the Nazi card is equivalent to First Degree Murder (FDM), and the Deluded card is equivalent to Assault and Battery (AB). If the scale of punishment leads AB being punished to the level of FDM, once someone has committed AB they might as well kill the person to destroy the evidence; given that the punishment cannot be increased with the added crime. In for a penny, in for a pound.
Granted in a debate pulling the Nazi card does not destroy the opponent, it merely destroys your own credibility. The above analogy stands as an example of why scales of punishment to fit the severity of crime are needed.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Tejretics
I would not consider that a K. That's more akin to not conceding, as there must be a counter argument. In the case of two competing ethical frameworks, both can be wholly valid even if judges will be asked to choose which comes ahead in the particular case.
I believe a decent example of a Kritik is seen with Robin Hood vs. Blackadder (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzijOEHcFxk). Robin Hood takes utilitarianism to be self evident to justify his cause and the suffering of his men, all for taking from the rich and giving to the poor... Blackadder basically says those efforts are for naught because it makes the poor dependent on charity, denying them the actual progression they could attain with their own effort, leaving it at best a zero sum gain.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Tejretics
Not formally trained, so take what I say with a grain of salt...
Some K's are just BS. Suffering is good, you haven't proven otherwise = BS. The missing impact turn leaves the new proposal weightless against the presumably justified argument.
With some overlap, I'd draw the line of K with using the underlying foundation upon which their argument is based. Like what they took to be self evident. If writing out their reasoning, it'd be hidden inside one of premises, a condition needed for it to be true.
Created:
-->
@DebateArt.com
My two cents: If S&G remains a weighted category, it should be changed to "presentation." This is an intentional expansion of the focus, to account for the various visual sides to how an argument is organized. Basically if one side uses a wall of text, along with horrid spelling, and the other has clean headings, images, organized links, and so on... I think we all appreciate when a voter puts that effort in, making at least half the debate easy to read. (and yeah, I pretty much think sources themselves should be dropped; point inclusion of it often causes source spamming rather than sources of value)
The earlier any changes to the voting system are done, the less problems there should be in any retraining later. I'd suggest starting a focus group (forums here would be fine for that), to try to figure out what the ideal ballot would be, rather than arbitrarily copying what's been done before... Even if using a categorical system, there's no reason to assume the weights and categories were done the best way previously.
Created:
-->
@linate
To use an analogy: A woman says her abuser has changed because he hasn't yet thrown her down a flight of stairs this month... To trust that bad behavior will not repeat itself, would call for some fundamental change, of which there has been none.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@RationalMadman
That's quite the bad mental image you've put in my head.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@DebateArt.com
Questions:
- What names have you gone by on other sites?
- What made you decide to launch this site?
- Why did you name it Debate Art? And anything we should infer from the name?
- What can we do to help?
...
And a couple suggestions:
- DA.Admin would be a good user name for you.
- Have a different persona(s) for casual use of the site. On top of many obvious reasons, a good vote should speak for itself, not have opinions on it dictated by it coming from the admin.
- I've seen people suggesting you should ask the moderator of another site for his black book (records of users): Don't! We've crashed on these shores, and should do our best to forgive past grudges; certainly those should not be institutionalized parts of our new experience here. ... If someone repeats familiar stupidity, I'll personally be faster to judge them for their habits, but I'm not the site admin, I'm allowed to be a normal petty user.
- Threads like this should probably be reorganized to have an updated gist section as the second post. Like you've answered all these questions, users could jump to one post with just he Q and A, rather than tracing your answers back to whom asked what, which is needless work and with a larger user base would result in questions being repeated.
- When disputes arise, try to think in terms of User X and Debate Y. Official rulings could mirror that, further decreasing confirmation bias. As an example:
"In a recent dispute raised by several unnamed members, Ragnar (henceforth User X, has been accused of repeated failure as a sportsman. In the topic of US military intervention (henceforth Topic Y), he has voted every time in favor of Con, to include on Debate Z when con forfeited every round until the last so that no rebuttals could be made (which should be an automatic lose), and on various other debates in Topic Y refused to penalize conduct even when con made strictly Ad Hominem attacks full of swear words and sexual slander. It is thus ruled that User X shall lose ALL voting privileges for six months, in addition to Topic Y in perpetuity."
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@DebateArt.com
@RationalMadman
Reposting from another thread (https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/201?page=4&post_number=91), as I did not know RM had made the same suggestion...
My two cents...There needs to be multiple types and levels of moderators.Forum ModeratorsDeleting spam from the forums could be trusted to many, but reorganizing the forums or locking threads is a top level decision low level mods should lack powers to accidentally enact.Debate ModeratorsAgain deleting outright spam is easy to trust. Deleting (or hiding the listing) of offensive debates, would require a greater level of care. We want love spell salesmen banned in short order (call it probation until reviewed by a top level admin?). Fake debates created by peoples alts to give them free wins, at a certain point become obvious, but not something to risk mistakes with. Finally offensive topics call for maximum care, likely multiple admins signing off on the removal (I'd say zero intellectual validity, like neo nazis saying the holocaust must be resumed... if Ren is smarter than Stimpy on the other hand, is without importance, but could serve as a valid exchange of ideas).Vote ModeratorsSensitive topic to which I might start a thread for the discussion, but in brief... I know to some a series of random symbols is the gold standard of judging debate, but to anyone with intellectual integrity it's an insult to the debaters as well as any judgement which shows evidence of even knowing the debate topic. Then getting harder, there's obvious vote trades (on DDO there was even a guy offering blowjobs for favorable votes), which call for care in handling beyond a quick click of delete. A few levels up there's votes which are low quality, but not intentionally violating the rules; for these I'd say comity review with veto powers (blocking the removal)... of course the primary goal of such things should not be policing, but rather vote analysis to give positive feedback to improve future votes ("I agree with x" gets deleted, any vote which tried is okay).
Mine is basically a long term explanation, written without industry lingo. I haven't actually worked IT, but I am trained in cyber security, and elsewhere have seen things go wrong in easily preventable ways. Anyway I'd be happy to re-write this, combine other things into it, etc.
Created:
Posted in:
My two cents on the original thread topic...
There needs to be multiple types and levels of moderators.
Forum Moderators
Deleting spam from the forums could be trusted to many, but reorganizing the forums or locking threads is a top level decision low level mods should lack powers to accidentally enact.
Debate Moderators
Again deleting outright spam is easy to trust. Deleting (or hiding the listing) of offensive debates, would require a greater level of care. We want love spell salesmen banned in short order (call it probation until reviewed by a top level admin?). Fake debates created by peoples alts to give them free wins, at s certain point become obvious, but not something to risk mistakes with. Finially offensive topics should be maximum care, likely multiple admins signing off on the removal (I'd say zero intellectual validity, like neo nazis saying the holocaust must be resumed... if Ren is smarter than Stimpy on the other hand, is without importance, but could serve as a valid exchange of ideas).
Vote Moderators
Sensitive topic to which I might start a thread for the discussion, but in brief... I know to some a series of random symbols is the gold standard of judging debate, but to anyone with intellectual integrity it's an insult to the debaters as well as any judgement which shows evidence of even knowing the debate topic. Then getting harder, there's obvious vote trades (on DDO there was even a guy offering blowjobs for favorable votes), which call for care in handling beyond a quick click of delete. A few levels up there's votes which are low quality, but not intentionally violating the rules; for these I'd say comity review with veto powers (blocking the removal)... of course the primary goal of such things should not be policing, but rather vote analysis to give positive feedback to improve future votes ("I agree with x" gets deleted, any vote which tried is okay).
Created:
Posted in:
I was on DDO for a long time, but gave up on it early into the errors due to it's lack of enforcement of anti-stalking policies.
Created: