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@Goldtop
Columbus was looking for a trade route, he along with most other people already knew the world was spherical, they knew this hundreds of years prior.
Quite correct. They did. Even the ancient astronomers knew the world was round
Isaiah 40:22 He who sits above the circle of the earth,
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@Mopac
You talk like an ambush journalist.
So that exempts you from answering basic simple questions about these scriptures, does it?
You aren't really trying to get answers,
I can assure you there are very good reasons for the questions that I am asking. Questions that you should have no problem with.
you are trying to justify yourself.
Justify myself???? for what? I have nothing to justify at all. If you are going to enter into a conversation in defence of something I have highlighted, then you should at least have something to justify YOUR opinions and views if they are contrary to my own. but you cannot even manage that. This only makes me more curious.
If this wasn't the case, you wouldn't be so rude.
How have I been "rude". I have asked you two basic questions concerning the scriptures, scriptures that you - I am assuming - have read, studied and followed, and you have failed miserably to address them. Is all you have done is given me your own interpretation as to why YOU believe Paradise means. I want to know what it is that the gospels say these words mean. I have highlighted the pertinent part of these questions so you will have no trouble distinguishing between your own opinions and those of the scriptures.
What do the scriptures mean by paradise and where is it?
What do the scriptures mean by heaven and where is it?
Maybe I'll drop in on another topic you make
it is not compulsory for you to do so, but you are more than welcome, mopac.
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@Mopac
I just want you to know that I interpret your unreasonable fanaticism as insecurity.
Ok, you have completely failed to explain what the scripture means by the word "paradise". So read this verse from Matthew's gospel :
Matthew 7:21 King James Version (KJV)
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
and tell me, What the gospel means by the word “heaven”? And where is heaven”?
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@Mopac
I just want you to know that I interpret your unreasonable fanaticism as insecurity.
What fanaticism? These are the gospels that you read and adhere to, this is all your fantasy. A fantasy that you cannot explain and can't answer for.
What did Jesus mean when he PROMISED :
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. ?
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@Mopac
"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven "
What is heaven? Where is heaven?
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@eash
Listen, I am not arguing the point. You seem to think I am. The bible is beyond doubt full of half stories , anomalous statements, enigmatic verses and downright lies. It has been added to and taken away from , redacted and expunged. So you have no argument with me on that score.do those men sound like they are to be trusted editing the bible?
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@eash
Well I doubt that too. I have good reason believe they/ Jesus' Jews were worshiping an Egyptian god Ra or more precise Amen - ra.i doubt Israelis had a different god.
I find it is amazing how many Egyptian connections one comes across when actually looking at these biblical scriptures, don't you think.
Anyway. Back to your op and my point addressing it was to simply point out that Moses had taken a prayer from the Egyptian Book of the Dead and turned it into a list of dictates as shown at post 2 above.
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@janesix
And what effect, if any, do you think the Precessional cycle might have on us here on Earth? Or the Earth itself?
I think I explained a little at post 10 above. but to add further. Our own planet earth's orbit is not exactly circular, it is more elliptical orbit around the sun and never returns to the same place. It does retard 1 arc second which would bring us into a closer proximity to other planets whose gravitational pull do/will and are act on our earth with devastating effects as I pointed out in post 10 above. We have just experienced the largest "blood moon" (one of many this year alone) this century. This is because we were at a closer distance than we have been used to.
The ancients knew about this effect, and most certainly the priests, who used this action of the planets against the ignorant and illiterate populations of the earth by telling them they must have done something wrong so "the gods" are sending punishment, unless of course they donate more of their hard earned belongings and properties to the temple / church.
To day we can understand better because of the simple and basic things most of us know about astronomy. but in ancient times it was punishment sent by the gods, for one misdeed or another and what usually followed was plague and pestilence, and all kinds of diseases simply because unlike today, they just could not manage or cope with what had happened to them. They seemed to fear the god more than dying from the fatal perdicuments they were actually in. We are today are more aware and able to cope with many other these natural disasters. We have hospitals, medicine, machinery etc etc. Yet still there are religions that will blame the gods for these horrific disasters.
The movie Apocalypto gives example of priests using the natural phenomena of an eclipse to fool the citizens into giving more sacrifices. The priest pretends to talk his god into returning his favour...... and his light
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The 12th Planet page 178 Zecharia Sitchin
"Precessionis a phenomenon caused by the Earths North – South axis, causing the North Pole(the one pointing at the North Star) and the South Pole to trace a grand circlein the heavens, the apparent retardation of the Earth against a starry constellationamounts to about 50 seconds of arc in one year, or 1 degree in 72 years. Thegrand circle – the time it talks the Earth’s North Pole to point again at thesame North star – therefore lasts 25,920years ( 72X 360),and that is what astronomers call the Great year (forapparently Plato, too, was aware of the phenomenon.
The risingand the setting of various stars deemed significant in antiquity, and theprecise determination of spring equinox (which ushered in the New Year), wererelated to the zodiacal house in which they accrued. Due to the precession, thespring equinox and other celestial phenomena, being retarded from year to year,were finally retarded once in 2,160 years by a full zodiacal house.Ourastronomers continue to employ a “zero point” (“the first point of Aries”), which marked the spring equinox circa 900 BC but this point has by now shiftedwell into the house of Pisces, Circa A.D.21 the spring equinox will begin to occurin the preceding house Aquarius. This is what is meant by those who say that weare about to enter the Age of Aquarius".
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@eash
nope. he raised his staff to the a place called HEAVEN and it is way above the north star.
I am not disputing that.
and we also know at the temples in egypt they ate their sacrifice to that idol/god
but the Onias temple was a jewish temple.
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@Goldtop
Based on the wobble, yes.
I remember reading something sometime ago about the length of the "ages" zodiac houses. I will have to dig it out, but I clearly remember that one house it takes 2,160 years approx to complete before it give way to the incoming house, - give or take 100 years because some houses are smaller that others.
Though I may be confusing all this with precessional "wobble".
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yeah, and Jesus says to eat his flesh and drink his blood. It is clear from the scripture itself how people interpreted that one. You wouldn't use this as proof that Christians are to be cannibals would you? I'd hope not.
No because as you say, JESUS made it QUITE CLEAR what each REPRESENTED and was only SYMBOLIC of his flesh and blood. It wasn't an ambiguous statement that could be taken any other way that the one he made very clear. Stop being silly
But the scriptures DO NOT make the meaning of PARADISE clear at all do they? It is ambiguous as you have shown, by giving your own opinion on what it COULD mean. . Otherwise You wouldn’t have had to guess what is meant by the word PARADISE would you? So Don’t take me for some kind of idiot
I think you're missing the obvious,
Yes that ole’chestnut, “I don’t understand and am missing the point'. You’re like a broken record once your back is against the wall. JUST SAY 'YOU DON’T KNOW' , because you don’t.
the word that gets translated into "paradise" cane from a description of a physical place, like a park.
Ah yes, good ole mistranslation, but you seem to have managed to translate it as you see it haven’t you? So it is a place then?
Calling attention to"in" or "up to" doesn't really demonstrate what you are trying to say.
IN indicates something enclosed and UP is a direction, Is what I am CLEARLY saying.
What the hell is a matter with you, do you not understand the simplest of English or do you just want to put your own definitions to what you believe something means?
In this case put together these very simple two letter words appearing in these verses are INDICATING being ENCLOSED in something in a SKYWARD DIRECTION, how are you failing to see that?
So there are clearly other ways of examining these examples that makes good sense.
There are, but you haven’t been able at all to tell me what THE SCRIPTURES MEAN by the word “paradise”,have you now?
So try this:
What did Jesus mean when he PROMISED :
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. ?
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@eash
how could Moses raise his staffto a place that doesn't exist until David buys the Land/hill from i guy for 600talents of silver to Build HIS HOUSE?
You mayhave misunderstood me. Moses may well have "raised his staff"heavenwards to the stars of a celestial abode/planet or mountain. He wasprobably taught in the "strange science" of astronomy or at leastAaron would have been as all priests were.
I believethe temple at Jerusalem was the "heaven on earth" we hear so muchabout. The only description of this Jewish temple we get comes fromJosephus who describes a temple that the disgruntled exiled Jewishpriest Onias built in .... you guessed it.... Egypt 135 B.C. and " like that one in Jerusalem”
He describes this temple as havingall the signs of the zodiac and many other celestial symbolism.
And Flavius Josephus in his Jewishhistories keeps up this celestial tradition with the description of Onias’temple that he built in Egypt with its signs of the Zodiac depicted on a largetable and the large gold disc he had suspended on a gold chain representing theSun. The candelabra representing the planets that stood in the temple ofJerusalem which also has the circle of the Zodiac.
I believethe temple at Jerusalem was the "heaven on earth" we hear so muchabout. The only description of this Jewish temple we get comes fromJosephus who describes a temple that the disgruntled exiled Jewishpriest Onias built in .... you guessed it.... Egypt 135 B.C. and " like that one in Jerusalem”
He describes this temple as havingall the signs of the zodiac and many other celestial symbolism.
“Unfortunately the motive of Onias in doing all this was not to his credit:he was anxious to outdo the Jews in Jerusalem, as he bore them a grudge for hisexile, and thought that by raising this temple he could induce the masses toleave them for it. There had been an ancient prophecy made 600 years before. Ptolemy also gave him a piece of land 21miles from Memphis; the district is called Nome of Heliopolis. There Oniasconstructed a fortress and built his sanctuary”. Josephus. The Jewish WarExcursus IX. Page 401. A New Translation. G.A. Wilson.
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From Professor Morton Smith's work titled Marks Secret Gospel;
“And came they to Bethany, and a certain woman whose brother had died was there. And coming she prostrated herself before Jesus and says to him “son of David, have mercy on me”. But the disciples rebuked her. And Jesus, being angered, went off with her into the garden where the tomb was, and straight away a great cry was heard from the tomb. And going near, Jesus rolled away the stone from the door of the Tomb. And straight away, going in where the youth was, he stretched forth his hand and raised him, loved him, seizing his hand. But the youth, looked upon him,loved him and began to beseech him that he might be with him. And going out of the tomb they came into the house of the youth, for he was rich. And after six days, Jesus, Jesus told him what to do and in the evening the youth comes to him, wearing a linen cloth over his naked body. And he remained with him that night, for Jesus taught him the mystery of the kingdom of God. And thence arising, he returned to the other side of the Jordan”.
Mark.The Secret Gospel, Professor Morton Smith, pp 14
This sounds to me like a very much alive Lazarus.
.
Amazingly, the first conspiracy theory concerning the resurrection comes from the gospels themselves where the Jews insist Jesus’disciples stole the body but only after bribing the guards (Matthew 28:11-15).
Bringing the ritual of “raising the dead” into the modern era, we need look no further than the rituals performed in modern-day Freemasonry particularly the “raising” to a third degree Master Mason as told by Christopher Knight and Robert Lomas in their excellent book, The Book of Hiram;
-“The candidate is held straight so that he hinges backwards onto the funeral shroud [of white linen] previously placed on the floor that is immediately draped around him so only his eyes are uncovered. At this point the Masons of the lodge walk around the edge of the ‘grave’, and finally three attempts are made to retrieve the brother from the arms of death. The first two[hand grips] fail because they used the methods from the previous degrees, but the third technique, [a different hand grip] peculiar [only] to the third degree, succeeds. With the assistance of the deacons the ‘cadaver’ is‘resurrected’ from his tomb with a special grip applied by the Worshipful Master. And from this moment onwards the man raised from the darkness of his figurative tomb will be a Master Mason for the rest of his life. The most important information given to the newly ‘raised’ mason is that the genuine secrets of a Master Mason were lost ‘with the death of our Grand Master Hiram Abiff’ ”.
From the work of Christopher Knight and Robert Lomas, The Book Hiram.1996. Page 19.
It appears then that there are some resemblances or even a connection here to this ritual of a spiritual symbolic “raising” by hand and the white linen burial shroud carried to the tomb of Jesus by Joseph of Arimathaea After the “dead” body was retrieved from Pilate. There is also a possible connection as told to us above from Mark, The Secret Gospel, where we read about the resurrection of Lazarus and how Jesus “stretched forth his hand and raised him”, as was in the case of the“ruler’s dead daughter” above, where again it is said Jesus “took her by the hand, and the maid arose”. Did Jesus and his “secret disciples” once more set all this up as in the case of Lazarus? When we take closer look at the“dead daughter” story we can see that either Jesus lied or he didn’t perform a "miracle":
“behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him, saying, My daughter is even now dead: but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she shall live. And when Jesus came into the ruler's house, and saw the minstrels and the people making a noise. He said unto them, Give place: for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn. But when the people were put forth, he went in, and took her by the hand, and the maid arose”.Mathew 9: 18-25.KJV
So we see, if the “certain” ruler’s daughter is dead as her father believes she is, then Jesus lied exactly as he did to those disciples who were with him in the case of Lazarus where he first told them Lazarus was not dead but asleep. And if she (the daughter) was not dead, then there was no miracle performed but a ritual “raising”. It seems Christians or at least these Gospel writers, want it both ways.
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@eash
I am still under the impression the Jerusalem was "the kingdom of heaven". ie. NE of Egypt.
It is now I believe, an established fact the all religions made a "heaven on earth".
i.e. "ON earth as it is in Heaven" which from my own research is an Egyptian prayer originally and not a Jewish/Christian prayer as Christians have been led to believe.
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@Mopac
A state of being can be said to be a place.
I agree , i.e. a mental place/state - 'cloud nine' - 'he is in a bad place',etc The scriptures also mention a 3rd heaven which I am assuming is a mental state and not a place.
But I would like to know what the BIBLE means by Paradise. You have given me what YOU believe Paradise to mean, what you haven't given me is what the bible means by "Paradise".
The bible seems to suggest a physical place depending which of the many bibles one cares to read: it is a long list..
2 corinthians 12:4
But he was taken up into paradise, where he heard things too wonderful to tell.
was snatched away to Paradise
"up" and "into" seem to suggest a physical celestial skyward abode.
And who can ignore this;>
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
"in" paradise.
So what is the bible suggesting paradise to mean in these verses above?
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@eash
do you know the direction where HEAVEN IS?
North East of Egypt?
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@Stronn
Yes, many important things will occur on Earth.None of them will be due to the precession of the equinoxes.
Well to my knowledge it is definitely celestial changes that cause things to happen on Earth. The Perigee of other planets is the main cause . This is why, I believe, natural disasters, such as tidal waves, volcanoes and earthquakes are occurring at more frequent intervals than just 50 years ago.
Some planets are closer in proximity to Earth now than they have been for millennia and their gravitational pull along with the gravitational pull of the moon are having a devastating effect on our planet. It has happened before. Even the ancients knew and wrote about it.
"Man made" climate change is a myth. One volcano can throw up more pollution than man has ever done since the industrial revolution. This is not to say that man is not contributing to the state of our atmosphere.
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@Goldtop
Do you mean from one zodiacal house to another?The official beginning of the Aquarius age was 11/11/11. Apparently, the transition alone takes 50 years.
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@Tradesecret
It seems to me that rather than suddenly having wisdom, every thing they did after they ate the fruit got dumber and dumber.
Then you are completely denying what the gods (plural)themselves have said aren't you.
Do you agree God issued a command or not? At least answer that one.
That is what the text suggests. Yes
As for the man being driven out of the garden, would you care to at least address why you think it is important because it remains a mystery to me
You are attempting to answer a question with a question ...AGAIN. It is in the bible, it has to mean something. It is also clear the woman wasn’t driven out. There is absolutely nothing that indicates a reason why the woman was not expelled; the bible is totally silent on the matter. You can make all the surmises and speculations you like, but you simply cannot make up a story of your own to explain away this very bias act of this so called ‘loving’ god.
AND you are ignoring the fact that this dictate was to the woman only and not the man.
This couple didn’t even understand the meaning of “ nakedness” this we know by the fact this Lord had to asked them “ who told you were naked”.
10 He answered, “I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid.”11 And he said, “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?”Strange that this all seeing all hearing lord had to call to Adam asking where he was.9 But the Lord God called to the man, “Where are you?”The tree of life gives eternal life, not life per se.Opinion and or guesswork. But you are forgetting this little problem aren’t you?24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.
“Guarding the way to the tree of Life”.<<<<<< It is noticed this loving Lord didn’t put a flaming guard around the problematic tree of knowledge and save himself a big problem.
The tree of the knowledge of good and evil brought death because it is a tree which opened their eyes to deciding for themselves what good and evil was.
Yes, and this Lord didn’t want our “eyes to be opened did he” I keep telling you, this lord wanted us to remain in a state of servitude and ignorance. Like I have pointed out, they even (according to this Lord) had to be told they were naked. he calls all people his "SERVANTS"
11 And he said, “Who told you that you were naked?
You have not explained how this "opening of their eyes" actually gave them knowledge.
And neither does the bible, so that is for you to explain away sunshine. But let me remind you of something: the “gods” plural had this to say just after the act of defiance:
Gen 3:22 Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil.”So there it is, we suddenly became wise like them.
This^^^^^^ is the most interesting part of the whole saga as far as I am concerned.
So, it is there plain as day that WE ARE “LIKE THE GODS”. I.e we are as good or as bad as the gods themselves.
I find your answers presently weak and pathetic and inconsistent.
Yes I know you do. But what else can you possibly say? I hardly expected you to agree with anything I say. You simply do not like me highlighting parts of these scriptures that simply do not ring true.
You are struggling to explain away any part of this nonsense. It is nonsense simply because it has come down to us after thousands of years and many translations and misunderstanding and rewriting. And you are left holding the baby.
My answer to your question is yes, qualified by deleting your adjective "ignorant".
Even if we take this story literally the had to be told that they were naked?
But nice diversion away from my question to you.
Nope I have a reason for asking you my question at that particular juncture, I addressed your question. see above 4th line down.
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@eash
Moses did not write these words in hebrew, because he didn't now how to speak hebrew.
I agree. As per usual there is another story here that devout Christians simply will refuse to hear.
This is the verse that proves you correct in my opinion:
And Moses said unto the LORD, O my Lord, I am not eloquent,neither heretofore, nor since thou hast spoken unto thy servant: but I am slow of speech, and of a slow tongue.
Now this either means Moses had a speech impediment or it is as you say, he didn’t even speak Hebrew. Remember this Moses was a general in the Egyptian army and was confident enough to talk to his troops and bark out orders, and was made “like a god”.
It also appears that although Moses couldn’t speak Hebrew his newly found brother could speak Egyptian as it was Aaron who did all the talking to the king/Pharaoh. Sothis story as it stands is very mixed up and muddled. Again, I believe the author/s of the first 5 books is hiding some very pertinent facts.
7 Then The Lord said to Moses, “See, I have made you like God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron will be your prophet. 2 You are to say everything I command you, and your brother Aaron is to tell Pharaoh to let the Israelites go out of his country. 3 But I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and though I Multiply my signs and wonders in Egypt, 4 he will not listen to you. Then I will lay my hand on Egypt and with mighty acts of judgment I will bring out mydivisions, my people the Israelites. 5 And the Egyptians will know that I am the Lord when I stretch out my hand against Egypt and bring the Israelites out of it
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@Mopac
Paradise is Godliness with contentment. That is my answer. Perhaps you are thinking something different.
I get the impression that many Christians believe that Paradise is some kind of (up there) heavenly abode, but you are saying it is simple contentment a state of being/ecstasy even?, Strange though how some bible references to Paradise suggests that it is a place.
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@Mopac
Why do you crusade against the faith?
Is that what you think I am doing? My you flatter yourself. I am not stupid enough to believe I could rock anyone's faith. And it isn't my intention at all. I notice that you haven't even tried to explain why a so called god inspired work would be riddled with nearly 200 contradictions.
The two Marys went to the tomb. Matthew.28:1.
The two Marys and Salome went to the tomb. Mark.16:1.
Several women went to the tomb. Luke.24:10.
I would call paradise "Godliness with contentment".
Yes that is what you would call it . I want to know what the bible means by "Paradise"?
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And all lifted from The Egyptian Prayer of Ani.
The Egyptian Book of the Dead. (The papyrus of Ani). The difference though is that Moses had turned this Prayer into dictates.
E.A. Wallis Budge in his transliteration of the Book of the Dead he has texts called The Negative Confessions of Ani amongst which one will find lines such as;
Ani saith:
“I have not done iniquity”.
“I have not robbed with Violence”.
“I have not stolen”.
“I have not done murder”.
“I have not done harm”.
“I have not plundered God”.
"I have not defrauded offerings”.
“I have not committed fornication”.
“I have not set my lips against any man”
“I have not defiled the wife of any man”
I have not caused pain”.(The papyrus of Ani).
And Moses has similar written by the finger of God amongst His commandments;
13 “You shall not murder.
14 “You shall not commit adultery.
15 “You shall not steal.
16 “You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.
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@Mopac
So you are mistaken in believing that undermining scripture undermines true religion.
I think you'll find that the scriptures "undermine" themselves. Thus proving, the scriptures as and of themselves, are unreliable.
In as few words as possible could you tell me, what is "Paradise" Mopac?
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@eash
example. the manuscripts have the hebrew letters for our LORD and CREATOR is YHVH. yet the 1611 translators removed HIS NAME and added two titles.yet their kind did except their editing.thus they took away words from the bible and those still editing the bible are allowed to continue doing so because they are excepted in their 'holy city'.
Extremely interesting eash.
Tell me, what else did they take away and add?
And what were the titles added?
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Here these two gospellers cannot even agree of who was Joseph's father. And Luke seems unsure about Jesus' paternal parenthood
Matthew 1:16 King James Version (KJV)
16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.Luke 3:23 King James Version (KJV)
23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli
23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli
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Paul founded no church
Paul is generally considered one of the most important figures of the Apostolic Age[10][11] and in the mid-30s to the mid-50s AD he founded several churches in Asia Minor and Europe. He took advantage of his status as both a Jew and a Roman citizen to minister to both Jewish and Roman audiences.
Nowhere in scripture does it say Paul heard the voice of a dead man risen
Read what I wrote and not what you believe I wrote. What was jesus if he wasn't a deadman risen? Are you now denying the resurrection.
Nowhere in this passage does it say it is a “ god inspired” gospel truth.
And I didn’t say that it says that in bible.
You can't find contradiction, so you manufacture one, and then pretend its in the script.
Are you suggesting that those verses I have produced as examples of contradictions are not from the Book of Acts? The anomalies are there to see.
Acts 9:4 King James Version (KJV) contradicts Acts 26:14 which contradicts Acts 22:9 which then contradicts Acts 9:7.
One says Paul feel down and then another says they all fell down, One says they "heard not the voice" another says "I heard a voice speaking unto me" then another verse tells us they all heard a voice
And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.
Get over it. The blinding muddled mind of these gospellers or Paul himself just cannot get their stories straight, and it gets worse.
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I do at times feel genuinely sorry for Christians. Many feel committed by faith to the belief that the bible has all the answers that matter, but pick and choose among those answers and ignoring whatever makes them feel uncomfortable.
Most Christians have, and do profess to want a church that operates ‘by the book’ soto speak yet they dispute endlessly over what their book actually means and disregard the very clear implications of its texts whenever it suits them.
What I have come to realise about Christians is that many are simply unable to discern the difference between explaining and explaining away, or between ideas and ideologies.
To bring up any inconsistency, contradiction or an anomalous verses is completely anathema to Christians.
Saul of the New Testament who became Paul, for instance, can never seem get his story straight concerning his Road to Damascus moment, if we are to take the scripture seriously.
Acts 9:4 King James Version (KJV)And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
Acts 9:7And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.
Acts 22:9And they that were with me saw indeedthe light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake tome.
Acts 26:14And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
Yes, this, ^^^^^^^^^ from one of the founders of the early Christian Church
Christians will usually put these many inconsistencies down to irrelevant minutia while totally ignoring the fact this apostle supposed to hearing the voice of a dead man “risen”and all is supposed be a “ god inspired” gospel truth.
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@Tradesecret
Are you saying that this ignorant couple knew right from wrong before the act of defiance? Yes or No?
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God commanded Adam and Eve not to eat the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. He made this as a command to moral beings. You have not engaged with this point at all. It seems to me that non-engagement concedes it validity.
I have addressed it and have said three or four times now, this scripture clearly states their eyes were opened after the fact and not before.
As for the point about the man only being driven out of the garden, I did not know it was an important point - and still don't.
That is a response not an answer.
I don't have an answer.
I agree, but what is it you say in these cases of none answers? Lets see:
You have not engaged with this point at all. It seems to me that non-engagement concedes it validity.
This god wanted us to live in servitude and ignorance these are facts. This god was totally opposed to man having his "eyes opened". To not have one's eyes open is to to be in darkness not the light. These are cold facts you just do not want to face.
"the Lady Of All Life" is not identical to "mother of all living". Is there a possible connection? Perhaps.
It is, and there are many more where that came from.
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@eash
The Serpent is a meaning of satans deceiving. for a snake has eyes like man yet isit tongue has 2 meanings which means by not telling the whole truth that being is deceiving Eve.
Nope. A satanis simply one who accuses or opposes in the original Hebrew literature.
If we look at two different bibles using the exact verses and their translations they actually reveal what “a” Satan really is and its role. .
Psalm 109:6
King James Version (KJV)
“Set thou a wicked man over him: and let Satan stand at his right hand”.
Psalm 109:6
New International Version (NIV)
“Appoint someone evil to oppose my enemy;
let accuser stand at his right hand”.
Satan as an imperialist leader of demon hordes and challenging the authority of god for rulership over the Earth is purely a Christian Invention.
The Old Testament Refers rarely to these so called “satans” they are simply portrayed as obedient servants or sons of gods (plural) ( the bene- ha-eloheim) who perform specific instruction of obstruction. Nowhere in the Genesis Story is there even mention, direct or indirect of Satan’s involvement in the Tree of Knowledge story.
When “A” Satan does appear in the OT,it is usually as a member of the heavenly court and one who carries out God's dictates.
God sent one as a bet to torment Job TWICE! This particular satan by all account had said to god, I have been walking around the earth. God asks “did you see my servant Job? He’s A good man and fears his god”. Satan replies “do you think he fears you for no reason? Or is it because you have threatened to take everything away from him if he doesn’t do your bidding” etc etc . God then sends this Satan to destroy everything that the sinless God fearing Job had ever owned and worked hard for, including his CHILDREN! But with strict instructions not to harm Job himself.
Job 1:12-20. And the Lord said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the Lord.
13 And there was a day when his son and his daughters were eating and drinking wine in their eldest brother's house:
14 And there came a messenger unto Job, and said, The oxen were plowing, and the asses feeding beside them:
15 And the Sabeans fell upon them, and took them away; yea, they have slain the servants with the edge of the sword;and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.
16 While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The fire of God is fallen from heaven, and hath burned up the sheep, and the servants, and consumed them; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.
17 While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The Chaldeans made out three bands, and fell upon the camels, and have carried them away, yea, and slain the servants with the edge of the sword; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.
18 While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, Thy sons and thy daughters were eating and drinking wine in their eldest brother's house:
19 And, behold, there came a great wind from the wilderness, and smote the four corners of the house, and it fell upon the young men, and they are dead; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.
20 Then Job arose, and rent his mantle, and shaved his head, and fell down upon the ground, and worshipped....
If that wasn’t enough, god again sent satan on yet another betting mission , this time to give Job scabs and boils. Job 2:1-7.
13 And there was a day when his son and his daughters were eating and drinking wine in their eldest brother's house:
14 And there came a messenger unto Job, and said, The oxen were plowing, and the asses feeding beside them:
15 And the Sabeans fell upon them, and took them away; yea, they have slain the servants with the edge of the sword;and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.
16 While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The fire of God is fallen from heaven, and hath burned up the sheep, and the servants, and consumed them; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.
17 While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The Chaldeans made out three bands, and fell upon the camels, and have carried them away, yea, and slain the servants with the edge of the sword; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.
18 While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, Thy sons and thy daughters were eating and drinking wine in their eldest brother's house:
19 And, behold, there came a great wind from the wilderness, and smote the four corners of the house, and it fell upon the young men, and they are dead; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.
20 Then Job arose, and rent his mantle, and shaved his head, and fell down upon the ground, and worshipped....
If that wasn’t enough, god again sent satan on yet another betting mission , this time to give Job scabs and boils. Job 2:1-7.
So it seems that god uses these opposers/accusers as adversaries to do his dirty work.Murdering children for a bet to prove a point. Deary me how low can one get?
Indeed King David himself is referred to as a satan (adversary) in the book of 1 Samuel 29:4.
Numbers tells of an adversary (satan) sent by god to stand in the way against Ballaam. 22:22
You really need to study more.
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@Tradesecret
Most of your post at 42 above is nothing short of a rambling rant full of nothing but opinion, YOUR opinion, of why you think god did one thing or another. So, from here :
I won't because it is irrelevant to me. As for facts,I think you are over-reaching again.
Indeed Stone cold fact are also irrelevant to you. The evidence for these two creation accounts being the same story is overwhelming.
One Example is, the spouse of the creator couple was given the title, the Lady Of All Life by her husband the Serpent Lord Enki. AND BEHOLD! just look at what the bible says some 20,000 years after :
“And Adam Called his wife’s name Eve, because she was the mother of all living”. Genesis 3:20.
You've Obviously read absolutely nothing outside of the bible. There is beyond doubt a much better and a more informative and more accurate and clearer explanation to this Tree of Knowledge story than the half flawed story the bible tells.
What is plain as day is that God commanded Adam and Eve not to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. You simply ignore this or suggest that this command somehow is a suggestion because Adam and Eve could not possibly know it was right to obey God and wrong to disobey God.
I am suggesting exactly what the scripture says, that is , once this brand newLY created couple had eaten from the tree of knowledge, “their eyes were opened” to what was good and what was bad. I am simply asking why it was that this god didn’t want us to be knowledgeable and would rather that we remain in ignorance?You seem to believe this is not the case. I don’t agree. Get over it.
It is not me misreading the passage.
Yes, that old' chestnut, I don't know how to interpret the bible SB!
It's Always the one questioning that is “misunderstanding” and or “misreading”,isn’t it? Have you ever once considered it just may be your indoctrinated self that might be the one that is “misreading” these thousands of years old ancient texts? You remind me of the hapless individual who just cannot seem to get anything right yet will not look at himself as to where the fault may lay,he simply has to blame everyone else for his own mistakes.
Your Interpretationyou are re-interpretingYour Interpretation
Yes of course, it is - mine mine mine - and never once -yours yours yours- that just may happen to be at fault. Heard it all before. I am telling you that you are wrong. You adding to the story with your own interpretation of what you think god means and what you think gods reasons were for doing such a cruel thing and by ignoring the glaring facts of the story, is toyour own detriment my son.
the thing is at that time there were no thorns
Leaving aside "crown of thorns" then. and some seeds didn’t falling on "thorny ground"
There are over 50 verses in the bible that speak specifically of thorns. BUT YOU ARE INSISTING THERE WERE NO THORNS IN THOSE DAYS, SO YOU ARE RIGHT AND THE BIBLE IS WRONG THEN.
Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field. GENESIS 3:18
'But if you do not drive out the inhabitants of the land from before you, then it shall come about that those whom you let remain of them will become as pricks in your eyes and as thorns in your sides, and they will trouble you in the land in which you live. NUMBERS 33:55
"For if you ever go back and cling to the rest of these nations, these which remain among you, and intermarry with them, so that you associate with them and they with you, know with certainty that the LORD your God will not continue to drive these nationsout from before you; but they will be a snare and a trap to you, and a whip on your sides and thorns in your eyes, until you perish from off this good land which the LORD your God has given you. JOSHUA 23;12 - 13
I am beginning to think that you haven’t even read the bible never mind any extra-biblical literary material.
Genesis 3: 23 So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the eastside of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.
You Haven’t even attempted to explain why only the man was expelled from the paradisiacal garden?
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It really gets up your goat doesn't?
You cannot even get a simple English Idiom correct. But want us to accept YOUR interpretation of these ancient scriptures that are absolutely THOUSANDS of years old and gone through many interpretations and translations.
Learn English: the phrase is Get my goat Or Get up my nose.
That there are people who disagree with you and have good reasons and explanations for what they think.
That is just it. None are "good reasons and explanations", they are your interpretations of ancient scriptures. You say simply words mean something else entirely. because you cannot explain these things away without doing to. It is alway those who question who are the ones to have "misunderstood" as far as you are concerned. You could and never would, admit that you just may have the whole thing wrong.
It is sad that your eyes really are closed to the truth.
Your truth is not necessarily my truth.
Still, I will pray for you.
Kind of you. thank you. Why didn't anyone pray for Judas or Satan?
God may have mercy on you.
He won't and neither will he on you.
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@Tradesecret
I'm discussing the story as related in Genesis.I don't really have anything to say about any other story. If you want to go toEnail et al., then start a new topic discussing that story.
This is my thread and I will take it where I like. Besides, they are the same story only one is more clear and detailed than the half story we get from the bible. Which is a point that you have ignored entirely. It is a fact that both these creation stories are speaking of the same lords.
At this point in time, you have not established that Adam and Eve did not know right from wrong. Your premise is not only weak, it is non existent.
You Really are ignorant at times.(or pretend to be) It is there PLAIN AS DAY to read.
You’retrying to deny what is actually written AGAIN!. It is only after they eat from forbidden tree of knowledge that their eyes are open to good and evil i.e.right and wrong.
You need to get those five years olds that you are so proud of to explain this to you.
Evil =wrong.
Good =right.
Gen3:5 "For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God,knowing good and evil."^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^6^^ AND NOTBEFORE!!!!
One of these gods simply wanted us to remain in a state of ignorance. Whereas the benevolent and WISE Serpent god wanted our eyes to be open. The Serpent Lord does get a lot of praise in the bible. Jesus himself though highly of them didn't he. Eve did not die and neither did Adam.
Matthew 10:16 King James Version (KJV) be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.
Genesis 3: 23 So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the eastside of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.
Why did this lord only expel the man from "paradise"?
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If Lazarus was a believer, and the indication is that he very well could have been, then Jesus would have raised him from the dead to everlasting life after.
It had nothing to do with Lazarus' faith in his god.
What he lost faith in was the movement, he seen it as dangerous and not going anywhere as did Judas and Simon Peter.
He Appears to have been very close to Jesus and very high ranking and Jesus Couldn't afford to lose someone so high up the ranks because he feared others may follow Lazarus and he was right because that verse clearly states “Come,let us go that we may die with him" in other words they were going to follow Lazarus.
So to put this in context Lazarus first was talking of leaving and abandoning Jesus and the movement "sick".
Jesus Didn't believe that the "disciple he loved" would abandon him and return to the land of the "dead".
But he did "die"
When Those other disciples heard this , they also decided to abandon Jesus and the movement saying,
Let us also go, that we may die with him.
So what changed Lazarus' mind? What had Jesus done to convince "the one he loved" to stay?
Because:
JESUS RAISED HIM TO HIGH PRIEST, PERFORMING THE THIRD INITIATION OF THIRD DEGREE. AND THIS NOW EXPLAINS WHY IT WAS THEY ALSO WANTED TO KILL LAZARUS ALSO.
"John 12:9-11 King James Version (KJV)9 Much people of the Jews therefore knew that he was there: and they came not for Jesus' sake only, but that they might see Lazarus also, whom he had raised from the dead.
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@disgusted
you don't get to change what is written to pacify your concerns for it's implausibility.
They do, and so do others here. They will ask a question such as " do you think that god is so stupid to not notice the contradiction in his own words"?
Then they will, in the very next breath, insist that what is actually written means something else entirely.
Tradesecret for instance, will have it that when god wrote the word "touch" , what he actually meant was any number of things including "light". he then point blank tried to change the verse completely, here:
Tradesecret "note however, Jesus never said to Mary don't touch - he says don't hold onto me".the word in the greek is the word hapto. It actually has the meaning to anoint. At times it is also translated cling, grasp, touch, or light..
This is what the verse actually says:>
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: John 20:17 KJV
This BLATANT! misleading and purposeful mistranslation of the GOSPEL text is something devout Christians do when they have painted themselves tightly into a corner and challenged.
And this is what any serious studier of these scriptures will find themselves up against. Liars and backsliders.
But then what is one to expect when their own leader instructs them to be two faced:>
Matthew 10:16 King James Version (KJV) be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.
Notice this man god actually instructs them to be WISE like the Serpent. This would be the same serpent that is said to have "deceived" brainless eve", I take it.
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@Goldtop
Forum posts: #28Although it is true that God does get jealous - it is never over knowledge or wisdom, but rather faithfulness
Goldtop Ah, so God is happiest when we don't use our brains, Gotcha. That would stand to reason if God was an imbecile who hated smarter people.
Or when the human created prefers one god over another. Which is exactly what is at the core of this creation epic. The Serpent Lord was Enki AKA Ea. He and his spouse, both doctors of medicine and other skills are said to be the creators of the "Adama". Look at the side of any western ambulance and you will see the Emblem / Symbol of this creator Serpent god the snake wrapped around a tree or pole representing the tree of life.
The original Creation epic makes it quite clear what is at the bottom of this story - (half) brotherly rivalry. And this rivalry is a continued theme throughout the whole bible: (half) brotherly rivalry between Cain and his half brother Able. It is a theme that is continued - in my opinion - right up to our modern era. Which I hope to prove in another thread on this very subject.
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@disgusted
Quite correct. It was the taking and eating of this said forbidden fruit that made them know the difference, Just as the verse states.Eating the fruit is what made them aware of right and wrong,
"For their eyes were opened."
Gen 3:5 "For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."
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@Tradesecret
the serpent, satan,whatever - he is the accuser and you follow after him. you are his disciple.From my point of view - he is slime. You know like the stuff we find after a snail has passed by. creepy. disgusting. ugly.
My wife and children and grand children and my many friends will argue different.
can you produce a verse where God said don't touch?
Hahahhahahha you really scrape the barrel to come up with ridiculous excuses. So here we are again discussing the semantics of the word “touch”.
To eat from the forbidden tree one would have to reach out remove the fruit, bring it to one's mouth and then bite.
Of course it wasn’t a tree at all was it? It was the half brother of this lord that was a problem, he wanted humans to be knowledgeable where as this “god gods” did not. You need to go back to where this story actually originated, Mesopotamia,and you will read this creation epic in its original form. The two brothers involved are named Enlil and his half brother Enki the serpent lord<<<< see that serpent Lord.
The struggle was between two FLESH AND BLOOD lords , half brothers to be precise.It is a much detailed than the half story given in the bible that was written thousands of years after the alleged event , and incidentally this half brother story is a continuous theme throughout the whole of the bible Old and New Testaments.- -I am going to do a thread on it.
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@Tradesecret
God did not want us to be ignorant.
Opinion. God makes it quite clear that mankind was not to touch the tree of KNOWLEDGE!
He wanted us to be truly wise.
NO he didn’t! and stop telling lies. He made it clear to stay away from all kinds of knowledge , be it good or bad. You Need to learn to read your bible
He wanted us to listen to him and to obey him so that we could experience real life and in his presence.
Exactly. He wanted us to know things on a need to know basis. i.e. ONLY what he wanted us to know.
Humanity however chose to listen to Satan,
I have covered this myth of “satan" already. Is all it means is accuser/opposer. There is nothing sinister about this character created purely by the early Roman church
God had to kill a beast to cover him because his fig trees really did not do the job.
Indeed they were hardly WISE enough to make some cloth, fashion it into a garment and sew it all together, were they? They didn’t become wise although this is what the gods did the fear. These gods plural didn’t want us to know anything other than ploughing and sowing. i.e. just as today,they wanted us to keep our noses to the grindstone and kept ignorant to what is really happening around them
A delightful paradise full of murderers, and perverts, and rejecters of the light. Oh yes, and we still think nakedness is bad.
The first murder known to mankind was the murder of a son of the “lord” and on his watch. It appears that although the sons of lords were forbidden to lay with earthly woman it appears it was ok for the Lord's themselves. As Eve makes it quite plain and clear who the father was of each of her children.
“And Adam knew [had sexual intercourse with] Eve his wife; and she conceived, and Cain”,Genesis 4:1 KJV.
“And [then Eve] said, I have gotten a man from the Lord. And sheagain bare his brother Abel
It is noticed that the Lord favoured his own sons gift over that of Adams son.
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@PGA2.0
I believe in freedom of speech. I'm just pointing out a bias of yours. Attacking the man is a way of diverting the argument. It is a way of ridiculing a belief rather than addressing the points of contention. You gave me a number of verses that I addressed. When I counted with other verses that presented my case you sometimes ignored them or my argument as being silly or suggested Christians were.
You know I was going to adress this point by point. But I would only be repeating myself AGAIN.
REPORTED
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@Mopac
My mission here is pretty simple. Inform people that The Truth is God.
All well and good. I encourage you to do that -- in your own thread -- and not try to convert or inform members on others members threads that are asking specific biblical questions and wanting them addressed WITHOUT being preached to or at!
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@Mopac
The fall of man occured when man, puffed up by his own knowledge, took himself to being the rightful judge of good and evil.
No. I think you’ll find that the actual “fall” as you put it , came about because the sons of these lords/gods couldn’t keep their hands off human women, and had broken a strict heavenly taboo.
That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; [GAME]and they took them wives of all which they chose. Genesis 6 King James Version (KJV).
Indeed it mentions nothing of the earthly man being “taken” by the daughters of these gods , does it? But look who gets the blame for the rape of these innocent unknowledgeable earthly daughters of men:
3 And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
Yes your loving god seems to have punished the whole mankind for the sins of his own sons. Yes it was the earthly woman that to blame according to your god and she was at fault. And the punishment was to have our life span shortened.
Is it any wonder that the Christian church followed suite and dammed the Magdalene and marked her has a scarlet woman i.e. a prostitute? And St Peter saying
"Mary should leave us, for females are not worthy of life."
When In reality Mary was one of Jesus' high ranking disciples and his wife?
So we have another son of a god taking an earthly woman of his choosing.
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@Goldtop
"Is Preaching Allowed?
Just curious, one ofthe members here has stated his only mission here is to preach the gospel".
I cannot see the problem with anyone giving/preaching there opinion about the bible on their own thread.
What I do find offensive is some members believe it perfectly ok to derail and inject their religious beliefs into a thread without any intention of addressing the issue of the op.
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@PGA2.0
I'm Pointing out your personal ad hom attacks against me.
So report me if they upset you so, so much. But telling someone they are being“hysterical” and “silly” and saying the scriptures come across at times as “silly” are not personal attacks. Grow up is what you need to do.
You are not addressing the content, Your more focused on what I have to say and the effects that YOU believe that what I say may have on others. I Can’t help you there , sorry. This thread is not about soothing your concerns or anyone else’s. So for the last time: ADDRESS THE CONTENT OR STAYOFF THE THREAD OR I WILL REPORT YOU
What is vague about it? These two sold a piece of property, pretending to bring the whole price of sale to Peter for God's glory when in effect they kept partback. Then they lied about the price received that was to used for God's glory.God judged the motive of their heart in lying to Him for the money was to His Purpose. What does this have to do with Lazarus other than they all died a physical death?
It Does not address how this couple ended up just falling down dead and being buried. On gods whim. There must have been thousands of cheaters and swindlers walking about at the time, why didn’t god take a few of those at the same time?
I will tell you why, BECAUSE THEY WERE NOT MEMBERS OF THE JESUS CLUB WERE THEY?
And It Has everything to do with Lazarus by the fact that he was raised not from the literal “dead” but from among the “spiritually dead” as you put it. Which According to this MOVEMENT, the Jesus party, anyone outside the circle of was considered “DEAD”.
SO IN OTHER WORDS ANANIAS AND HIS WIFE WERE EXPELLED FROM INNER CIRCLE OF THE“LIVING” TO BE AMONG THOSE THE INNER CIRCLE CONSIDERED TO BE "DEAD".
It's That simple. This is nothing miraculous about the so called “MIRACLE” of“raising the "DEAD". As I have proved.
It so obvious that you are going by faith alone and have never ACTUALLY studied these scripture or anything extra biblical. The community of the Essenes or the community of Qumran? Jesus it is believed belonged to both these groups. Both These groups used SIMULATED resurrection as admittance to the third degree of initiation of the sect. This FACT is undisputed by the Dead Sea scrolls which you also haven’t read have you?
People Reading the bible without understanding the terminology of the time cannot accept that this god of theirs would be so vindictive as to murder two people for holding back a bit of "THEIR OWN MONEY".
If you insist that these “deaths” , those of Lazarus and of Ananias and Sapphira and of daughter of Jarius are literal deaths, then you do a great disservice to your " loving " god and to Jesus his son.
The idea of rotting corpse being brought back to life would have been totally abhorrent and disgusting to all Jews of the age.
And to have these so called “deaths" conveyed in such a matter of fact fashion tells me very clear that these “DEATHS” are SYMBOLIC” in nature.
St Paul doesn’t mention the miraculous ascending into heaven event either, no empty tombs, no disappearance from the grave of the physical body, no physical resurrection, no physical appearances of a Christ who would eat, or that the Jesus was elevated physically into heaven after a given time. To Paul the body of Jesus who died was degradable, weak, and physical.
Get over it, your god is not a god of love but a god of "jealousy" and of "war". And Jesus was no fluffy kissy bunny or teddy bear either under the surface.
Learn to read these scriptures constructively and not like some fawning schoolgirls who has just acquired a poster and magazine containing pictures of her bestest favourite pop star.
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@Mopac
The fall of man occured when man, puffed up by his own knowledge, took himself to being the rightfull judge of good and evil.Sounds like your problem.
Reported.
You have simply refuse to address the issues raised by my thread after requests to do so or to stay off it. You continued to use my thread to continually bombard it with your your preaching instead of addressing the the topic.
This is why I have now reported you.https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/433?page=1&post_number=10
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No they are not answered by your jealous and warmongering god and neither are they by you. Stop derailing my threads with your filibustering nonsensical babblings. Do it again and I will report you.All your questions are answered by accepting God as what God is.
Stay on topic or don't bother at all.
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@Mopac
The moral of the garden is that we were given the knowledge of good and evil.
No there is no moralistic story here at all. So you have started on the wrong foot with your first sentence.
These brand new humans new knew nothing at all, they were naked and not clothed, they didn’t have any understanding about simple modesty or dress codes OR that the point of the exercise was a test in their state of morals.
God did it, and we are saved by and through The Word.... And if you believe this, you will love God as God loved you,..... As a good father to a son, so has God loved you.... The Love of Christ moves mountains.....
Putting everything down to god’s love etc etc isn’t quite answering anything is it? And it isn’t true either is it?
For, didn’t this same god tell us he is "a jealous god", which would be jealous of other gods we can only assume? And Who threatened to punish for generations to come, the children of those who worship other gods?
Lets see:,
Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;Exodus 20:5
And didn’t this so called loving god mention he was a god of war? There are variations of this of course that mention this particular Hebrew/Israelite lord by name, so there is no mistaking whom it is they are talking about. Lets see:,
The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name.
Jehovah is a man of war; Jehovah, his name.
Yahweh is a man of war. Yahweh is his name.
Jehovah is a man of battle; Jehovah is His name.
I would suggest this instead, you let go of any assumptions concerning what you think you know about the faith, and learn anew.
It is not necessarily the “faith” it is the scriptures themselves.
And if you started addressing some of my “hang-ups”about certain parts of these biblical scriptures, that would be a start, don’t you think?
So, why didn't this particular Lord want us not to know anything apart servitude to him, if the tree of knowledge was not to be touched at all by these brand new humans?
And how was we expected to learn anything. I think it is I suspect. he wanted mankind to be in the dark , to be led like sheep, by his word only and by his own shepherds.
In actual fact, this is exactly what we are told to repeat over and over at school mantra like, aren't we?: "the lord is my shepherd"
I think you need to have another read of this enigmatic and ambiguous creation story, before I go any further with you.
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How is this Genesis serpent equated with a satan or a devil or a demon ?
It seems that, for us to explain away these glaring and obvious question at post (1) we have to learn about a mythical character that was solely created by Christians And the Christian Church, or mores the case the Roman Church itself.
In the Hebrew Bible and mainstream Judaism to this day, “Satan” doesn’t even appear as Western Christianity has portrayed him. Satan as Christians refer to him is a character that only appears in the post Jesus era.
In the Old Testament, ‘satans’ are rarely mentioned and are simply portrayed as obedient servants or sons of gods (plural) ( the bene- ha- eloheim) who perform specific instruction of obstruction. A root definition comes from the vowel-less Hebrew STN and is simply means oppose, adversary or accuser,the Greek equivalent was - diabolos –and relates to obstructer or slanderer.
If we look at two bibles and their translations we will have an idea what “a” Satan is .
Psalm109:6KingJames Version (KJV)“Set thou a wicked man over him: and let Satan stand at his right hand”.
Psalm109:6New International Version (NIV)“Appoint someone evil to oppose my enemy;let an accuser stand at his right hand”.
And who did Jesus himself call a Satan?
“But he turned, and said unto [Simon] Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men”. Mathew 16:23. KJV
It is a strange thing to call Simon Peter (his “rock”) seeing that only four verses earlier in the same chapter Jesus had just offered Simon Peter the keys to the Kingdom of heaven;
“And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven”. Mathew 16:19.KJV
This then we can see, simply means an “accuser” or adversary. Simon Peter and Judas referred to as Satan not just by the gospel writers, but in the case of Peter (his rock) directly by Jesus himself!
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