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@Amber
Alright, I’m done with you.
I would love to talk about this, but you continue to make this impossible. I don’t like doing this, but I’m just going to block you.
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@ILikePie5
Hey, I won't be able to be active from now until about noon on sunday, so if you must, you can start without me, but that's why I won't be saying anything. Sorry.
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@Amber
Once again, I start a nice civil (the pun was I used the word civil in a conversation about the civil war) debate, and you come along and start trash talking me trying to get a response out of me. Hey, guess what that is, trolling!
Can we please keep this at least a little professional? Because if you can’t I’m just done with you.
Genetic fallacy. Lack of reading comprehension skills. Yet again waiving the hand of ignorance without even making a single tangible argument in rebuttal to any of the numerous historical facts referenced therein.
So about that, no. If you would like to use the information in that source to back up a claim of yours, that would be nice, but you used that source as your claim, when it wasn’t even an argumentative piece, it was just informative. Also, genetic fallacy? Really dude? Please can we just have a professional talk for once?
The last one was States rights, which you could make a claim that it is different, but the specific states rights in question in the lead up to the civil war were slavery, slavery, and slavery, so as I've already mentioned, I would say that point comes out to just slavery also.Wrong, wrong, wrong, and wrong.
Care to elaborate?
Wrong. You clearly do not comprehend let alone appreciate the nuances of the complexities of the political sciences intertwining the core elements resulting in the shift from an agricultural based economy (which was a drain on the US overall) to an industrial based economy and the related innovations therein between the North and the South. The North was ready to move forward while the South wanted to remain decadent in the old (religious) ways.
Your point makes sense if your just talking about that sentence I said, but I go on to elaborate, so let’s see what you have to say about that.
Lincoln really didn't want to take anything away from the South, but eventually saw the political necessity of it.
You’re actually right here. I phrased my sentence very poorly. What I should have said, was the the south detested the election of Lincoln because they believed he would take their slaves. Fun Fact: Lincoln actually favored a gradual phasing out of slavery, but the south took that to mean that the slaves were going away immediately, so with these added corrections, my point still stands.
Wrong again. You do not need to pay to read it. Bottom left gives you the option to register for FREE and read it.
Yeah, this one is my bad. I saw that you needed a subscription to read it, and (I think justifiably) assumed that meant I needed to pay. Sorry.
Delusions of grandeur. You contradicted yourself with a circular fallacy.
How?
You haven't proven any of the cited sources are irrelevant to my opinion (an opinion not even given), and you have no basis in fact that I cite sources with the hopes you won't read them. What fucking sort of buffoonery is this nonsense!If you cannot even formulate a cogent foundation to argue your position off of, and you certainly never address any points within a given cited sources to argue against, just waiving the hand of ignorance at it claiming without proving they're "irrelevant" sources, why are you even here? Seriously!
So I am really sorry for implying you cited sources without reading them. I got a little mad, and said some things I shouldn’t have. I do still believe that your sources don’t adequately represent your argument. You said that you hadn’t even said you point of view yet, but you basically did with the websites you linked.
I still believe that I do have a decent point by saying your sources are irrelevant, but whatever. It is important to consider the other factors that lead to secession, but the biggest one was without a doubt, slavery. I look forward to talking about this with another history buff, if we can keep it professional
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@zedvictor4
no actually, but it sounds interesting, so can you elaborate?
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@Amber
You are an absolute troll, you know that right?
Anyways, I'll try and keep it civil this time around. (pun intended)
You're first source didn't even say anything about how States rights was the biggest cause of the civil war, it just listed some facts about that issue, so that one is moot.
You're Second source was really a better one for my side of the argument, seeing as most of what it talked about was issues related to slavery. It didn't come out and say that slavery was the biggest cause, but that was basically all it talked about. It listed 4 major causes, which all are just slavery at their core. Slavery was one of them, (no explanation needed there), but the other two that supported my claim were economy, and the election of Abraham Lincoln. Part of the reason the south wanted to keep slavery, was for their economy, and they detested Lincoln because he wanted to take their slaves. You can't really argue with that. The last one was States rights, which you could make a claim that it is different, but the specific states rights in question in the lead up to the civil war were slavery, slavery, and slavery, so as I've already mentioned, I would say that point comes out to just slavery also. I'm not going to repeat myself here, so look at the conversation I had with 3RU7AL back at the top of the page.
You're Third source was basically the same as the first one, because it's purpose was just educating the public about the history of states rights in America. BTW, nice job citing, American battlefield trust, that is a very nice website that I too use a lot. However, the writing on the page doesn't even really support your claim, and was more informational, so on to the next one.
Finally, You're Fourth Source, (wait are you kidding me here?). It's under a pay wall, so it's my opinion that you didn't even read these websites, because they don't support your claim at all, and one of them is behind a paywall, so what do you want me to do here?
Anyways, you can't go around citing things that are irrelevant to your opinion, and hoping I won't read them. Sorry, if I got a little pointed there, but it is all true. I hope we can keep this a bit more socratic and friendly than our other conversations.
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@Amber
The problem here is you’re chalking the n-word up to just a swear word, but it can be used in a bigger context than just that.
I know this sounds all sparkles and rainbows, but words do have power over people, and specifically the n-word can be used to put people down.
I find you and your ideals disgusting, bigoted, and horrible, so I’m basically just done with you.
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@TheUnderdog
I’d rather that no one say it, but that’s not going to happen, so as long as it isn’t used to harm anyone, or used at anyone in a denominational way, yeah, I guess it’s okay.
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@3RU7AL
I suppose a better title would have been, slavery was the biggest cause of the civil war, because I’m now just realizing that “main” is a bit ambiguous.
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@TheUnderdog
You makes some really good points here. I think you are maintaining that the holocaust needs to be taught, so that’s nice, but yeah, I agree with you that maybe it gets a little too much spotlight, aside from some other things that need to be taught too.
You had me worried with this title, but I actually more or less agree with you here. Often times people can hide behind anti-semitism to excuse horrible actions, like what is happening now in Gaza.
The real problem is that there just isn’t enough time in school curriculums to teach everything necessary. For the record, I was taught about the other killed in the holocaust along with the Jews, but that was it.
It’s a really sad truth that history is treated just like any other subject, because it is important to learn about our past mistakes, so we don’t make them again.
This is a major problem with our American educational system, and there is really no apparent solution, at least to me.
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@3RU7AL
That is a good point. I kinda forgot about the nullification crisis for a second there.
However, this was long before the civil war, and I would argue, had nothing to do with it. I may have made a bad point about union threatening issues being few and far between, but we've gone a little off track here.
Yes, tensiones had been simmering for a while, but I still maintain that slavery was more than just the catalyst, and the main issue in that particular instance of national disunity.
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@ILikePie5
Does it matter that I don't know anything about the theme?
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@ILikePie5
Well, sorry if anything I did contributed to this outcome. Kinda sucks that we came this far just to lose. Oh well.
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@ILikePie5
Sorry, I just thought of one more thing
Point #3
You said it yourself, lynching you would be the best move for me if I was scum, but Earth got lynched. For more details, refer back to my earlier statement, but in summary, Earth dying last night makes much more sense if Luna was scum, not me. And you can't really argue the reverse phycology side, because we're too late in the game to play that.
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@ILikePie5
Well we've both said all we can, I'll just lay it all out here, and hope you make the right decision.
Point #1
Back in DP3, Vader made a big point about Luna being safe because he was with you. This does make some sense, but then Vader turns out to be scum, so why would they try to protect someone if they weren't on a team with him? Wouldn't you want the keep the options as open as possible if you were scum? But no, Vader specifically went to say that Luna was safe.
Point #2
This one is pretty simple, so I'll keep it short. I was the first so claim. You could argue that it was because I was new, but my scum partner definitely wouldn't have let me do that, and I would have listened to them, because I'm new. Also, My claim fits in really well with some of the other flipped claims. I claimed first, without knowing what the other roles would be. If I was scum, I would have said something along the lines of Bishop, because it's chess Mafia, and I bet you would have too. Instead, I claimed a more abstract concept, and lo and behold, it turns out that what most of the claims were.
Previous Arguments
I said some stuff back in DP3 that I think I phrased pretty well, so instead of repeating it, I'll just stick it here.
My main point here is that I was the first to claim. At face value, that isn’t a great argument, but I like to look at things with hypothetical POVs, so let’s do that. Let’s say that I am scum. It’s generally not a great idea anyways, but you could argue that I was new, and didn’t know the strats, but you have to remember that I would have had a partner, who definitely would have disused me from that.Also, if I faked my claim, I came up with it very fast, and it fits perfectly with the other ones.If I were to fake a claim, I would have chosen a chess piece, and I think most of you would have too. I was very surprised, when most of the claims were lots of chess tactics and mechanics, like the pin. My claim was made before I had any way of telling what the roles would be called, I claimed one that matches up exactly with the others.My final point for now, is if I was mafia, who is my partner? You can say that the plan was to keep me distanced from my partner, but that doesn’t hold a lot of water when you check it out. You would Ideally like my relationship to my fellow mafia man to be either neutral or against, but I have been very polarizing in my alliances, and everyone I stood by is dead.
From my POV, It could be Vader, Earth, and Luna. Earth doesn't get a complete pass, but he did get roleblocked last night, so that helps his case some. I also think he has a good role claim, but most of my argument as to why it isn't him revolves around how Luna and Vader have interacted together.Vader has been trying to cover for Luna, saying that they get a pass because they allied with you. This makes some sense, but it's the only argument I've heard so far, and it doesn't work that well. If Luna was scum, then they would know that Pie was town, and thus wasn't lying about being confirmable, because he had no reason too. So Luna latched on to Pie in order to try and get a pass, while Vader backed it up.Luna made an argument as to why I'm scum, so I'll finish by rebutting that.My role makes sense with a lot of flipped roles.Yeah, but you waited forever to claim, and I was right out the door with it. It makes sense that you’re claim fits, because you saw the other ones first.I wouldn't have killed Savant dp1. That kill makes no sense to me.I would argue that it makes sense, only because it doesn’t make sense. You used you’re kill to draw the attention away from you and bolster you’re argument with a somewhat unrelated kill.Nobody really makes sense here as my scum partner.I would argue that Vader makes total sense because they were saying you were fine, just because you allied with pie. Besides, this same argument could be used for me. How am I a better Match to Vader than you?I conclusion, I can see where everyone is coming from when they accuse me, and I understand, but Vader is at least more of a suspect than me. I maintain a Luna/Vader team, but if you still think Vader/Me, at least vote for Vader, unless they can come up with a good defense. That’s my two cents.
Conclusion
It all boils down to really a choice between the first to claim, and someone who was vouched for by the other scum. Hope you make the right decision Pie, and either way, it's been real fun playing with ya'll. Hope we can do it again sometime.
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@Lunatic
Your whole argument yesterday was buttering pie up
My whole argument yesterday was why everyone Pie should lynch Vader first. The only reason I directed most of my arguments at him was because his vote was basically the only one that mattered.
If there is only one person who can make a decision, it's not sucking up to them, it's doing what you have to do if you want anything done your way.
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@Lunatic
@ILikePie5
If I was scum, why would I purposely put myself in this situation? I had every reason to kill Pie, but he's still here.
Think about it, if you we're me, would you rather be with someone who will vote for me doubtless and a confirmed town, or with someone who will vote for me doubtless, and someone who could go either way?
Luna's argument makes no sense!
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@ILikePie5
Because Luna is scum. Like I said, it makes no sense to play reverse psychology here. If I was scum, all I had to do was kill you, and me and Earth get Luna. But if Luna is scum, killing Earth does the same thing. And if he tried to play reverse phycology and get you instead, I don't think Earth would have bought it, so it's safer to just go and kill who is more convenient to be dead.
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@ILikePie5
Sorry pie, got one more point for my innocence.
I thought for sure pie would be the night kill tonight
yesterday, Earth was all for a Luna/Vader team, so If I was mafia, killing you makes much more sense, because then me and Earth would vote out Luna. There's really no point in playing the reverse phycology game here because it's at the end of the game.
Luna killed Earth because you were more likely to vote for me instead of him. This might be my first game, but even I would have made the calculation to kill you instead of Earth.
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@ILikePie5
Been nice playing with ya'll. If I might ask one more favor, it would be that you maybe reread what I said last round?
VTL Lunatic
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@3RU7AL
I would argue that while states right did affect the decision to secede, that can be chalked up to slavery too.
Here's how I see it.
You mentioned the sedition act to use as an example of states defying the federal government, and while you are correct about some states disagreeing with the government on issues other than slavery, these instances are few, and when they did come up, it was never anything even near the political division during the years leading up to the civil war.
A part of secession was just states rights, but seeing as all of the states that seceded practiced slavery, the individual states right in question, was just slavery.
Yes, some states had problems with the federal government before, but nothing that even came close to a civil war.
The states rights argument for the secession was about the right of states to practice slavery in particular, and any other concerns in the past about who got to make the laws, were not involved in the American civil war, and if they were, they did not have as big an impact as the slavery debate.
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@ADreamOfLiberty
Yeah, I'm normally pretty bad at writing stuff like this to represent what I mean. That's why I specified the MAIN cause. You definitely made some good points there, but I would argue that my title is sufficient. Yes many things were involved in the American Civil War, but I believe it can be argued that one of those issues (slavery) was the most important. I think that works, right?
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I Quote from Article 4 section 3 of the confederate constitution,
"No slave or other person held to service or labor in any State or Territory of the Confederate States, under the laws thereof, escaping or lawfully carried into another, shall, in consequence of any law or regulation therein, be discharged from such service or labor; but shall be delivered up on claim of the party to whom such slave belongs,. or to whom such service or labor may be due"
I Quote from Confederate Vice President Alexander Stevens,
"Our new Government is founded upon exactly the opposite ideas; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and moral condition."
Hit me with your best shot people.
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@Greyparrot
Sorry about that, it was actually something someone else said and I meant to put it in quotations. I am so stupid. 🤦♂️
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@Amber
I do apologize for some things I said. I generally like to keep my debates on here civil, but if your going to come out and attack my character, we’ll then I’m going to stand up for myself. You’re getting mad at me for personal attacks, when you dictated the term here by coming out guns blazing, when I was trying to be civil.
This argument is pointless anyways, because you still aren’t citing any sources and I don’t think you ever will. You linked a few studies about the definition of tribalism, but that doesn’t even really matter if I used tribalism in the wrong way, because you still are dodging around the things I’m saying.
You explained away all the statistics you mentioned by calling them “common knowledge”, or using ad hominem fallacies to try and attack my personal character, which has nothing to do with the argument at hand.
I haven’t needed to cite any sources, because I haven’t made any unsupported claims, so don’t go talking about that.
I leave you with these words. You are a horrible person. I doubt you will ever realize it for yourself, but I can’t leave without saying it.
This argument is pointless anyways, because you still aren’t citing any sources and I don’t think you ever will. You linked a few studies about the definition of tribalism, but that doesn’t even really matter if I used tribalism in the wrong way, because you still are dodging around the things I’m saying.
You explained away all the statistics you mentioned by calling them “common knowledge”, or using ad hominem fallacies to try and attack my personal character, which has nothing to do with the argument at hand.
I haven’t needed to cite any sources, because I haven’t made any unsupported claims, so don’t go talking about that.
I leave you with these words. You are a horrible person. I doubt you will ever realize it for yourself, but I can’t leave without saying it.
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@zedvictor4
I think you're totally right.
You're pointing out the stupid generalizations we make about groups of people.
This is a bit of topic, but at the end, you mentioned the AI revolution.
Gonna have to disagree with you here. AI is here to stay, and is very powerful, but the so called "AI revolution", is just the tech hype cycle.
This has happened before with other things. The .com bubble, and a while back, dolly the sheep.
People get so worried over something that's worth is very over inflated. Not to say AI isn't powerful, but it's not going to take all our jobs, just a few unnecessary ones.
Sorry for the tangent BTW.
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@TheUnderdog
What do they want? To end police brutality? Then call yourselves, "End Police Brutality".
This is ridiculous. You're getting upset that the name of an organization doesn't match perfectly with what they believe in. They do want to end police brutality, but they named their movement BLM, not because Black lives are the only ones that matter, but because some people act like they dont matter at all. If you want to take issue with the organization, then look at what they actually do, and don't get hung up on stupid petty things like the name.
Fun fact: YMCA stands for Young Men's Christian Association, even though they accept all religions and genders to become members. Point being, Sometimes things are named accordingly with what they are! Get over it.
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@Amber
I am of the mind that you do not even know/understand the meaning of the term, 'tribalism.'
How? You’re just saying random bs here. Human tribalism is when you immediately assume people outside you’re group are worse, WHICH IS WHAT UNDERDOG WAS DOING
BLM does mean only Black Lives Matter, and the behavior, actions and results of BLM have firmly established that glaring salient FACT!
This is the problem with you people. You all refuse to cite a dammed source! This is just an untrue claim that is unsupported.
BLM does mean only Black Lives Matter, and the behavior, actions and results of BLM have firmly established that glaring salient FACT!
This is the problem with you people. You all refuse to cite a dammed source! This is just an untrue claim that is unsupported.
And where did you matriculate to earning your degree in criminology or statistics?
I don’t need one to know common sense. It’s true that this data is not reflective of your argument, despite my education. Besides, I could ask the same question to you. Where’s your degree in statistics?
Anyways, we can start talking when you show me some hard, relevant data here, but I don’t expect you to.
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@Greyparrot
First of all, that statistic doesn't directly support your claim, because that data is influenced by the fact that many black people live in the same neighborhoods, and have more relationships with other black people, as is the same with any other group. Birds of a feather, flock together.
Second of all, this still doesn't even help your argument because even if many black people are violent, (which isn't true) some black people are not, and are very nice people, and thus your generalization is still unrepresentative.
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@Greyparrot
That’s just stereotyping.
Besides, you could say that some people deserve to die because they committed horrible crimes, but there is a reason for that.
What you’re doing with black people is making an untrue generalization, that is based one a few unrepresentative examples, which in turn, ends up misrepresents an entire group of people.
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@TheUnderdog
Not to be mean or anything, but this is human tribalism at its worst. BLM doesn’t mean ONLY Black Lives Matter, it means Black Lives Matter TOO!
Just because you aren’t part of a group doesn’t mean that you should care about the well being, or their lives even of the people in that group. We are all human, and all deserve to be treated as such.
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@ILikePie5
VTL Vader
Don’t think there’s much point in prolonging this. I’ve said my piece, and I’m still screwed. It been fun playing with you guys, sorry that we had to lose.
Whoever is coaching you is doing a great job
I guess I’ll take this as a compliment?
Anyways, I figure, if I’m going out I might as well go out with dignity, unlike Barney, so I wish ya’ll the best luck. I hope to play again with all of you, maybe as the actual mafia next time, but who knows.
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@ILikePie5
I’m not getting anywhere convincing you that I’m town, so I might as well try and get you to lynch me next round.
You said it was probably Vader and me, and if that’s true (it’s not), wouldn’t you want to go after the more experienced player first?
I’m still talking in hypotheticals, but without my partner, I would be totally lost, and would do horrible.
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@ILikePie5
I've provided arguments as to why I am innocent, so I think I'll move on to why I think it's Vader/Luna.
From my POV, It could be Vader, Earth, and Luna. Earth doesn't get a complete pass, but he did get roleblocked last night, so that helps his case some. I also think he has a good role claim, but most of my argument as to why it isn't him revolves around how Luna and Vader have interacted together.
Vader has been trying to cover for Luna, saying that they get a pass because they allied with you. This makes some sense, but it's the only argument I've heard so far, and it doesn't work that well. If Luna was scum, then they would know that Pie was town, and thus wasn't lying about being confirmable, because he had no reason too. So Luna latched on to Pie in order to try and get a pass, while Vader backed it up.
Luna made an argument as to why I'm scum, so I'll finish by rebutting that.
My role makes sense with a lot of flipped roles.
Yeah, but you waited forever to claim, and I was right out the door with it. It makes sense that you’re claim fits, because you saw the other ones first.
I wouldn't have killed Savant dp1. That kill makes no sense to me.
I would argue that it makes sense, only because it doesn’t make sense. You used you’re kill to draw the attention away from you and bolster you’re argument with a somewhat unrelated kill.
Nobody really makes sense here as my scum partner.
I would argue that Vader makes total sense because they were saying you were fine, just because you allied with pie. Besides, this same argument could be used for me. How am I a better Match to Vader than you?
I conclusion, I can see where everyone is coming from when they accuse me, and I understand, but Vader is at least more of a suspect than me. I maintain a Luna/Vader team, but if you still think Vader/Me, at least vote for Vader, unless they can come up with a good defense. That’s my two cents.
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@ILikePie5
I asked if I could use one of the aspects on myself (I could), and I asked if I could use both effects of the same person (I could not).
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@ILikePie5
You made some good points about earth, so that has me leaning towards a Vader/Luna team, but honestly, I’m not really in a position to accuse here.
My main point here is that I was the first to claim. At face value, that isn’t a great argument, but I like to look at things with hypothetical POVs, so let’s do that. Let’s say that I am scum. It’s generally not a great idea anyways, but you could argue that I was new, and didn’t know the strats, but you have to remember that I would have had a partner, who definitely would have disused me from that.
Also, if I faked my claim, I came up with it very fast, and it fits perfectly with the other ones.
If I were to fake a claim, I would have chosen a chess piece, and I think most of you would have too. I was very surprised, when most of the claims were lots of chess tactics and mechanics, like the pin. My claim was made before I had any way of telling what the roles would be called, I claimed one that matches up exactly with the others.
My final point for now, is if I was mafia, who is my partner? You can say that the plan was to keep me distanced from my partner, but that doesn’t hold a lot of water when you check it out. You would Ideally like my relationship to my fellow mafia man to be either neutral or against, but I have been very polarizing in my alliances, and everyone I stood by is dead.
Anyways, I hope that helps with your decision. I’ll vote for whoever Pie does, seeing as he has the most power, and lots of experience here.
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@Lunatic
Mostly because I wasn’t well versed in the “lingo”, but I think what I said has remained constant the whole time. How was what I said different from a one-shot doctor/strengthener?
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@ILikePie5
Character: Castling
Role: 1-shot Doctor-Strengthener (used)
Explanation: I choose one player as the king, and they get protected, and one player as the rook, and they get buffed. This makes sense because when you castle in chess, you protect the king, and develops the rook. I can only use it once, because you can only castle once per game.
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@Vader
@ILikePie5
Moozer was one of the last ones to make a claim
IDK if you mean role claim, or claim what happened last night, because I was the first to role claim, and I didn't claim what happened last night at first because I didn't see it!
I'm basically screwed here, but I'll make one last plea to Pie, who essentially holds the fate of the game in his hands (I don't like it, but it's true). I was the first to claim, and because of that, you would think I would claim to be a piece, right? It's chess Mafia, and we were all surprised at how little pieces there are, and how many game mechanics and things like that are roles, so If I was making a fake claim, I totally would have said bishop or something, especially because I hadn't seen what other people had said yet! My role (if you forgot, I'm a castling BTW) fits perfectly with the theme of the other ones that were claimed much after I made mine. You could say that the Mafia made their claims fit with mine, but only two of the claims are fake, and from the other ones we got, there is still a lack of pieces.
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@Lunatic
Figured if he was telling the truth, it was the least I could do If the Mafia decided to tamper with his action. Besides, didn't really have anyone else better to use it one, I think?
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@Earth
@ILikePie5
I see where you're coming from. By now, It's basically down to me, Vader, and Earth, so were just going to go around accusing the other two. I don't like this, but it's basically up to Pie and Luna who to lynch now.
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@Vader
Yeah, that is fair. I wouldn't put him completely of the lynch list, but he's lower than some others.
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@Vader
@ILikePie5
Yeah, I'm sorry, but I though Pie or Luna were scum, (still sorry about that), and if that were true, I would be #1 on their kill list because I was their main opponent. Also, I wasn't entirely sure that Vader was town, so I decided to go a bit softer and give them the "action untamperable" buff.
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@Vader
Pie is innocent child, this is good. This means that Luna is likely town
I know I'm still a bit new to this, and you do make a good point, but If I were mafia, a good strategy might be to really lock on to someone who is confirmable, so that way I get a pass too. Convince me otherwise though.
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@Lunatic
@ILikePie5
I did use my action. I protected myself, and made vader's action untamperable.
I now admit that I was wrong here, and Pie, I apologize you were correct.
Going forward, I can see how I might be a good choice for scum, but I am not, and here is my reasoning.
Pie: Obviously ruled out
Earth: If Vader is telling the truth about earth getting roleblocked, I think it's the pretty safe the say that they are town, but I could be wrong.
Luna: Probably fine because they are mostly going with you Pie, but I could see that as a strategy maybe?
Vader: Same thing as Luna I think, I'm fine lynching either one of them.
Still need a bit more info here, but this is where I stand for now.
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@IlDiavolo
That's an interesting question, and one that I have been pondering a lot myself. Obviously no country is perfect and the U.S. is far from it, so maybe not proud. That kind of blind loyalty to a country is honestly kind of a weird concept to me. If you asked if I am proud that my country is a (more or less) democracy, I would say yes, but if you asked me am I proud that my country practiced slavery, or has an unfair system for electing government, I would say no. However, I am grateful to have rights like free speech. They say that if you really love something, you'll try to make it better, so that's the way I like to look at it. America is by no means perfect, but at least there is a system in place so that "we the people" can make it better, and have been, ever since its creation.
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