GnosticChristianBishop

I kind of agree on the word or label of atheist church, although I recognize why atheists are using the term.

I prefer the older " Mystery Schools."

It was an important distinction in the past showing where not to go for charity. That is not what the Mystery Schools were. 

They were more for the intelligentsia than the common illiterate.

They were guild driven schools for all of the arts and skills.

"Gnostics focus on eradication of ignorance."

Indeed, and without atheist churches, the old Mystery Schools of the past, we could not educate the ignorant back then or here and now.

We have a duty to the goal you recognize, but you would pull the rug out from under us by not having a soapbox to teach the ignorant from.

Rethink good buddy.

Regards

DL

"You have given no justification for your assertion that sinlessness will make humans go extinct."

I have but you did not get it.

It is obvious, but let me ----- give something to the debate/discussion.

Evolutionary theology posits that all we ever do as we evolve is cooperate or compete. 

Cooperation is seen as good because no loser is created.

Competition is seen as evil because it creates a loser to the competition.

All human to human conflict stems from us competing.

Take that necessary evil, sin to religion, and we go extinct.

That is why stupid Christians sing that Adam's sin was a happy fault and necessary to god's plan.

Do you see how it has to also be a part of natures plan?

Regards

DL

It is a shame you do not really want to consider both the Christian Original Sin concept and Jewish view or Original Virtue on this.

Bottom line.

You do not sin, you go extinct.

Sin is necessary to our evolution.

Regards

DL

I agree and think Jesus would disown the garbage Christianity we have today.

Homophobes and misogynous a hole, religions produce by the score.

 

Regards

DL

I agree but think religions to be synonymous with tribe.

Do you recognize your tribal nature?

Do you recognize, that as a social animal, you are likely in some kind of tribe or religion?

Do you recognize that we seek fellowship?

Even if you are a statist, that is still your tribe. 

What are your thoughts on atheist churches?

Regards

DL

Are you saying that God would logically want his great plan derailed?

As to the text, I am reporting what I read.

We are talking interpretation that are in conflict between Christian and Jewish interpretation of a Jewish myth.

Not wise to ignore them. Original Virtue and our passing the tests in Eden with out happy fault of sinning.

As I stated, without it we would go extinct.

Regards

DL

Worm Man?

Regards

DL

I have to laugh at the soft and pampered of today, who cannot dither out that tough times mean tough laws.

If we continue to destroy our environment, the old and harsh times will return.

Regards

DL

Do you have a material dualist view of life?

Do you think of you as a body and spirit/soul?

If you do, you would know that just as you were born thinking of yourself as the fittest human, your instincts are telling you that your spirit/soul part was also born thinking it was the fittest spirit and that to all should be,   --- God.

Nature implies that there is a God for you, and it is you.

 Modern Gnostic Christians name our god "I am", and yes, we do mean ourselves.

You are your controller. I am mine. You represent and present whatever mind picture you have of your God or ideal human, and so do I.

The name "I Am" you might see as meaning something like, --- I think I have grown up thanks to having forced my apotheosis through Gnosis and meditation and “I am”, represents the best rules and laws that we have found to live by.

In Gnostic Christianity, we follow the Christian tradition that Christians have forgotten that they are to do. That is, become brethren to Jesus.

That is why some say that the only good Christian is a Gnostic Christian.

Here is the real way to salvation that Jesus taught.

Matthew 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.
   
John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Allan Watts explain those quotes in detail. 
Alan Watts - On The Book of Eli - YouTube
 
Joseph Campbell shows the same esoteric ecumenist idea in this link.
 
On Becoming an Adult - YouTube

The bible just plainly says to put away the things of children. The supernatural and literal reading of myths.

Regards
DL 

Heaven and hell are states or perception and mind.

There is no supernatural in Gnostic Christianity and that is why we have decent theories.

The Gnostic Christian reality.

Gnostic Christian Jesus said,  "Those who seek should not stop seeking until they find. When they find, they will be disturbed. When they are disturbed, they will marvel, and will reign over all.
[And after they have reigned they will rest.]"
 
"If those who attract you say, 'See, the Kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you.
 
If they say to you, 'It is under the earth,' then the fish of the sea will precede you.
 
Rather, the Kingdom of God is inside of you, and it is outside of you.
 
[Those who] become acquainted with [themselves] will find it; [and when you] become acquainted with yourselves, [you will understand that] it is you who are the sons of the living Father.
 
But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty."
 
As you can see from that quote, if we see God's kingdom all around us and inside of us, we cannot think that the world is anything but evolving perfection. Most just don't see it and live in poverty. Let me try to make you see the world the way I do.
 
Here is a mind exercise. Tell me what you see when you look around. The best that can possibly be, given our past history, or an ugly and imperfect world?
 
Candide.
"It is demonstrable that things cannot be otherwise than as they are; for as all things have been created for some end, they must necessarily be created for the best end.”
 
That means that we live in the best of all possible worlds, because it is the only possible world, given all the conditions at hand and the history that got us here. That is an irrefutable statement given entropy and the anthropic principle.
 
Regards
DL

It is a coming of age yarn that is praised, along with sin, by all intelligent people.

Without sin and evil, we go extinct.

Christianity is just reporting what we have learned from nature.

If not for supernatural beliefs, all would know and recognize that fact.

Mind you, the Christian apologists don't even know what Christianity is.

Regards

DL

Was punishing Eve for what Adam did not an act of punishing kin?

Was Eve not kin to Adam, as well as all other women, that had to bear the same penalty?

Regards

DL

 

What do you see as the doctrine of Original Sin?

Have you compared it to the Jewish Original Virtue?

Please read my post above and indicate if Adam did the right thing in keeping God's plan on track.

Regards

DL

A difficult question.

In a sense, as Eve was punished for what the bible says is Adam's sin.

Eve was exonerated by scriptures that recognized that Eve was deceived and had no evil intent. 

Regardless, Christians sing of Adam's sin as being a happy fault and necessary to God's plan.

God planned sin, yet strangely punished us for keeping his plan on the rails.

Crazy that, but it matches natures master plan for us.

Without sin or evil, humanity would go extinct. No guff.

Regards

DL

 

I have an extensive library, but experience tells me that you are better off getting the latest.

Mine is at least 4 years old now and some have rejected my sources, without cause, in the past.

Laïcité or female imam in France, ask search words, are all you likely need.

If you somehow cannot find it, then I am here if you will accept my sources.  --- Warning. I am slow.

Regards

DL

If you define better by moral sense, I can easily wipe the floor with Christianity.

This is apparent in the fact that when challenged on moral issues, --- they all run away, --- or hide honest debate behind their supernatural mental shield/safe space. Where all the really evil Moral Cowards hide.

I am sure you have seen it many times.

As to morals, statistics show atheist as above the mainstream religious, as are secularists.

At one time I had put Gnostic Christianity above atheism due to the fact that they had yet to open atheist churches.

This Gnostic Christian cannot speak for all free thinkers and esoteric ecumenists, but that change made atheism as better and equaled it to Gnostic Christianity.

I do not know your definition of better, but the left is a lot more better in moral terms than the right.

The right had more value at one time and has helped religion, but it has now been made un-required and harmful with it's homophobia and misogyny.

The better people, morally speaking, will agree.  

Regards

DL

Yes, including the gays that they are not throwing off of buildings.

We collectively brought Christianity to heel.

Islam will either heel to secular ways and become civilized, or die.

Regards

DL

Is it appropriate for me to offer my sympathies?

Regards

DL

On Jesus.

We have a moral Jesus who wants to free us from religions and outward gods.

The Christian Jesus, like his Roman creator, just wanted to slave us to it.

Regards

DL 

Modernization kills all religions, and Laïcité will kill Islam.

There is now a female Imam run Mosque in France and Laïcité in some form will be the future.

Tipping points are long past and their decline is accelerating as people get smarter and more moral.

Genocidal Gods, homophobic and misogynous gods,  --- Yuk.

Regards

DL

Religion as I described it, correct.

You did not argue against any point.

It is not just opinion. It has facts and stats.

Again, you reject what is given without an argument against to indicate why you reject.

Go away till you learn how to debate.

Regards

DL

Some day the sheeple will know how to move a Jesus mind to a Christ mind like Gnostic Christians can.

There are no more inquisitors to silence us.

Regards

DL

What it is, is why it is important.

Duality.

Most of us have a sense of us being body and soul.

Just as our material side wishes to emulate the fittest human, our spiritual side seeks a higher power, to confirm that what we do physically is correct.

The religious aspect is not as important as the social need it caters to.

This is evidenced and proven by atheist churches.

Regards

DL 

"if they have churches then they are no longer atheists , "

Show where they have agreed to this, regardless of atheist churches calling themselves atheist churches.

Regards

DL

No money in that my friend.

Regards

DL

I know your position and dislike slavery just as much.

I just could not answer my own question and thought that you, likely  better thinker than I, might help me out.

We will chat again when mutual confusion due to quotes are not around.

I have yet to debate and am formal debate stupid.

We will have to find something to disagree on and have some fun.

Regards

DL

  

You talked of all organized religions.

Were you including affiliated atheist churches?

I am all in for those Mystery Schools.

Beats loosing our kids to the right wing supernatural thinking syndrome.

Regards

DL

"Jesus, the Messiah can. "

Liar.

Only if Jesus ignores his own teachings, which I quoted.

I do not have to twist. You do.

Stop doing so or take your filthy self serving lies and shove off.

Regards

DL

I think your post applies more to lying preachers.

Think indulgences and how St. Peters was build on the backs of Temple Prostitutes.

Regards

DL

" Gnostic Christians aren't all atheists either"

No Gnostic Christian is an atheist. 

If one is, he will not call himself a Gnostic Christian.

BTW, stupid, Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people.

Stop being small minded.

Regards

DL

You agree you should take responsibility, then put it on Jesus.

Who is to die for your sins?

If the price of sin is death, then Yahweh died in Job 2;3 Where Yahweh admits to being moved by Satan to sin.

As to Jesus, where is it written that an immortal Jesus/god can die?

Get the quote.

As to your "We don't use Jesus.  God sent the Messiah. This was not only moral justified it was necessary. "

God sent the messiah for you to use, and you say you refuse to do so.

Rather ungrateful that.

Regards

DL

No physicist worth his label will say that the Big Bang came from nothing.

There is always a small but really compact mass to explode.

Est. are from a sugar cube size to a basket ball.

Show any bonified physicist who says there was nothing before the Big Bang.

Regards

DL

Most Christians have to accept and swear the apostles creed, and that basically forces them to accept Jesus, immorally, as scapegoat/messiah.

Given the what, 3,000 sects, I am sure that there are exceptions, Gnostic Christianity being one of those.

Regards

DL

 

Don't hold your breath. Most Christians cannot do apologetics for this issue, as well as most of their immoral moral tenets.

There is no biblical justification for us abdicating our responsibilities and immorally using as scapegoat.

All that Jesus said shows this and thus he would see it as a sin.

Jesus said pick up your cross and follow me. He did not say ride me as your scapegoat.

The moment morals are at issue, Christians vanish.

Regards

DL

You seem to think that using Jesus as a messiah or scapegoat is a moral thing to do.

Care to argue for us sinning by abdicating our own responsibility for our sins, the way Jesus taught?

He taught top be responsible and here you are sinning by trying to abdicate you responsibility.

You would not teach your children to do what you are doing. 

Explain your poor morals, as compared to what Jesus taught, which follows.

Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) "Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.

I think it strange that is we are to love good matter, that you would not see us hating the cursed matter that Christians have to see.

Regards

DL

I hate stupid ass holes.

Regards

DL

Selfless?

Not to the merchants he chased away from the temple.

Not if it is the Jesus who is said to have died for us.

Scapegoating is immoral, and for Jesus to ask us to sin by abdicating our responsibilities for our sins is another sin.

Regards

DL

That is not the Rome created Jesus.

That Jesus/Yahweh  has poor moral policies.

Just look at his no divorce for women and substitutional punishment policies.

Those are quite immoral and the tip of the iceberg.

Roll in Armageddon, and he becomes as big of a prick as Yahweh.

Regards

DL

 

Great way to communicate, stupid.

Nice if I knew what you were laughing at, but 9if that is your best -----.

Regards

DL

I have had my apotheosis or theosis already.

Most do not think those term to be speaking of anything real, but I would disagree with that.

Regards

DL

The Humans that are like Gods are those that are like Jesus.

Holy fuck, I hope you are wrong.

Yahweh had his Noah genocide and Jesus will have his Armageddon.

We like the Gnostic Jesus. He is a good person who wants to free us from religions, not slave us to one. 

We have to dislike the Jesus Constantine chose. Belief in him created the inquisitions. 

Armageddon would be proof that Jesus is evil. Right?

Regards

DL

Here is the Gnostic Christian view.

Let me speak to the lie of Gnostic Christians hating matter.
 
I wrote this to refute the false notion that Gnostic Christians do not like matter and reality that the inquisitors propagated to justify their many murders of my religion’s originators. It shows that Christians should actually hate matter and not Gnostic Christians.
 
The Christian reality.
1 John 2:15Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.  16For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
 
Gen 3; 17 Thou shalt not eat of it;  cursed is the ground for thy sake; in toil shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life.
-----------
 
The Gnostic Christian reality.
Gnostic Christian Jesus said,  "Those who seek should not stop seeking until they find. When they find, they will be disturbed. When they are disturbed, they will marvel, and will reign over all.
[And after they have reigned they will rest.]"
 
"If those who attract you say, 'See, the Kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you.
 
If they say to you, 'It is under the earth,' then the fish of the sea will precede you.
 
Rather, the Kingdom of God is inside of you, and it is outside of you.
 
[Those who] become acquainted with [themselves] will find it; [and when you] become acquainted with yourselves, [you will understand that] it is you who are the sons of the living Father.
 
But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty."
 
As you can see from that quote, if we see God's kingdom all around us and inside of us, we cannot think that the world is anything but evolving perfection. Most just don't see it and live in poverty. Let me try to make you see the world the way I do.
 
Here is a mind exercise. Tell me what you see when you look around. The best that can possibly be, given our past history, or an ugly and imperfect world?
 
Candide.
"It is demonstrable that things cannot be otherwise than as they are; for as all things have been created for some end, they must necessarily be created for the best end.”
 
That means that we live in the best of all possible worlds, because it is the only possible world, given all the conditions at hand and the history that got us here. That is an irrefutable statement given entropy and the anthropic principle.
 
Regards
DL

"What are theist's honest opinion on atheists, vice versa?"

The right wings of politics and religions will not think highly of atheists, who are generally more left wing.

I have a hard time seeing theists ands honest opinion as a true statement.

How honest is a person who believes in the supernatural and cannot bad mouth his god?

Note that Job 2;3 has Yahweh admitting to Satan moving him to do evil.

Christians, even with that, will not attribute any sin to Yahweh.

Christians are moral cowards and have an immoral double moral standard where they forgive god for things that they would condemn a person for.

A double moral standard, or hypocrisy. Your judgement.

Regards

DL

"What does being in the image and likeness of God mean to you and how much should we consider ourselves to still be in his image?"

Here is what a Gnostic Christian  names his god.

Modern Gnostic Christians name our god "I am", and yes, we do mean ourselves.

You are your controller. I am mine. You represent and present whatever mind picture you have of your God or ideal human, and so do I.

The name "I Am" you might see as meaning something like, --- I think I have grown up thanks to having forced my apotheosis through Gnosis and meditation and “I am”, represents the best rules and laws that we have found to live by.

In Gnostic Christianity, we follow the Christian tradition that Christians have forgotten that they are to do. That is, become brethren to Jesus.

That is why some say that the only good Christian is a Gnostic Christian.

Here is the real way to salvation that Jesus taught.

Matthew 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.
   
John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Allan Watts explain those quotes in detail. 
Alan Watts - On The Book of Eli - YouTube

Joseph Campbell shows the same esoteric ecumenist idea in this link. 
On Becoming an Adult - YouTube

The bible just plainly says to put away the things of children. The supernatural and literal reading of myths.

Regards
DL

Our views are indeed different.

We chose not to adore a genocidal garbage god, and call evil, evil, --- while Christians call that evil entity good.

We, demonstrably, have a free will, that is only limited by nature and physics.

 

Regards

DL

We are indeed like Gods.

In terms of creating the best rules and laws for us, and seeking the ideal set, we cannot help being what we invent.

Gods were not always supernatural.

Ancient emperors declared themselves to be Gods, and their sons, sons of god.

IMO, supernatural thinking is synonymous with stupid thinking.

Regards

DL 

"You're sort of a theistic atheist.....If that weren't contradictory enough."

An atheist will likely say that there is likely no supernatural god.

He would be correct IMO.

Knowing that most of us think in materialistic duality, body/soul way, ---- perhaps natural in our dualistic world, ---- and are born thinking ourselves the fittest in our lines, ---- a reality, ---- we would also think we were the fittest immaterial soul around.

The only reason I put Gnostic Christians above atheists, is that we led the way in showing atheists that the fellowship we all crave, will be given to their children by the stupid supernatural believing churches, and we knew enough to give our children,  a place to get fellowship without the brain dulling supernatural.

 

Tribalism/religionism are our human default positions, and atheists will cater to their children to save their mentality and morality.

Regards

DL