Barney's avatar

Barney

*Moderator*

A member since

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Total comments: 2,702

Cool setup!

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@beninaden

https://info.debateart.com/style-guide#writing-a-strong-resolution

If in doubt you can always use the forum to get feedback on potential resolutions.

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@prefix

No one is expected to vote perfectly from the start. There’s a learning curve to be sure.

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@prefix

-> “ Con did a better job on two points which Pro did not counter ( Child marriage traumatizes children. and
Aisha was enslaved)”

Again this vote falls short on analysis. Basically it would not be fair to the effort pro put in to treat this debate as a foregone conclusion.
While referencing one side of the debate, and suggesting there were no replies to the two contentions named, at least one contention put forward by the other side should be named. The “precious puberty” line of reasoning for example, and how con overcame it.

In order for a vote to stand, moderation should be under the impression you have some understanding of both sides (it need not be complete understanding, but some).

A decent layout for a vote would be a quick gist of how each side tried to argue, followed by why you believe one came ahead.

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@prefix

https://info.debateart.com/terms-of-service/voting-policy#arguments

Arguments
Goes to the side that, within the context of the debate rounds, successfully affirms (vote pro) or negates (vote con) the resolution. Ties are possible, particularly with pre-agreed competing claims, but in most cases failing to affirm the resolution means pro loses by default.

Weighing entails analyzing the relative strength of one argument or set of arguments and their impacts against another argument or set of arguments. Weighing requires analyzing and situating arguments and counterarguments within the context of the debate as a whole.

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@the_quiet_poet9

Nice vote.

My own arguments touch on the immorality of abortion bans; yet such does not make abortion moral, even if the morality of forbidding it is worse.

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@Yesterdaystomorrow

Yeah. Some people even have several iterations of the same topic active simultaneously.

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@prefix

While I wholly agree with you, your vote needs to be expanded with positive answers to two simple questions:
1. Did con make said argument about the UN?
2. What was pro’s attempted defense?

Additionally, your vote should contain a minimum of one contention from pro and how con countered it.

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prefix
08.20.2023 10:20AM

#7
Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Winner

1 point(s)
Reason:
If one is to avoid the argument of whose moral judgement is superior, and look instead to making a judgement based on a universal morality, one may turn to the United Nations.
The UN describes it thus "Child and forced marriage:[ is ] a violation of human rights"...https://www.ohchr.org/en/stories/2016/11/child-and-forced-marriage-violation-human-rights
[
The point goes to Con.

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@ihadsexok

-> “ i agree with con therefore i vote con”

That is never proper justification for a debate vote.

Your voting privileges are revoked until such time as you show an interest in following the voting guidelines.

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@ihadsexok

-> “ society is dysfunctional because gay people feel the right to now wave their dick in your face and mold your children into monsters therefore pro wins”

Without even verifying if pro indeed made said argument, both sides need to be analyzed.
Vote deleted.

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-> “Spoken like a true white supremacist cuck.”

You’re crossing way over the line. Compounded with other recent offenses, were your account active there would almost certainly be the need for a short term ban.

Regarding the post in question…

First, there is no reason to bring assumed sexual preferences into the discussion. When harassment turns sexual, there’s no denying that harassment is occurring.

Second, as much as the topic of discussion may serve as an indicator of leanings; as a one off it shows no obsession with race to justify the leap of faith to white supremacy. The topic is not even saying best, just complex by some yet to be determined measure.

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@Average_Person

“ eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee”

even without assigning points, this vote fails to imply any knowledge of the debate, and could indeed be said of every debate. As such. It’s deleted.

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Depends if you identify as male or female.

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@RationalMadman
@Sir.Lancelot

Regarding voting on each others debates:
That I believe you should not, is not some dogmatic commandment from above.

Any vote against each other is likely to reignite drama, so voting on each others debates is needlessly walking on thin ice.

From a moderation perspective, a known grudge makes any reported votes fall under greater scrutiny.

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@FishChaser

Your insults were even more lazy than the act of not showing up.

Your first round was great, but then you degraded yourself in a way that if it continues will result in you being banned. Please either stop insulting your opponents, or at least make it not so low brow (e.g., “Jesus raps with the power to smite, so he may have done something to make my opponent absent…”). One extends arguments and is entertaining, the other is garbage.

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@Boba_Tea

Lancealot got himself banned. Hopefully he did not intend for it to turn out like that but that’s the way it played out, which was a risk he knew or should have known.

RM is not whispering in the ear of the mods for us to do his secret bidding. Of all the people who have trolled RM, I am the most guilty; so please dismiss the notion of him controlling us.

As for the accusation of RM casting a votebomb… A vote you disagree with is not automatically a vote bomb. Vote bombs are classically 7-point BS void of analysis of the debate (e.g., your vote here). Further, even the Old Testament would not condone this behavior even if you were right; one eye for one eye, not two or three (or whatever this campaign against him is up to) for one.

I have seen the vote from RM which /might/ have been retaliatory (still not a votebomb). Had these problems not massively overshadowed it, we in the mod team would have reviewed it in detail. As is, now it just goes without saying that RM and Lancealot should not vote on each others debates for the foreseeable future.
And however bad it may have been, the place to have issues with it would be the comment section of the debate in question… Much like what I’m doing here, I’m keeping it /here/ where you cast a bad vote; instead of following you to some future debate to talk smack about your voting habits on this one (not that you’ll be able to vote again any time soon).

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@RationalMadman

I agree the situation is severe. However, Whiteflame is already already treating it as such.

In mod chat when he mentioned banning someone for a minimum of two weeks for a shitty vote, I wondered how shitty it would have to be… I just read said vote, and OMG that is weekly stupid level shitty, like hall of shame worthy, the type of case that causes special explanations in the rules for what not to do.

When Lancealot had accounts acting in a manner to imply they were possibly colluding, they were quickly ordered not to vote on his debates; when they acted as slave accounts to votebomb in spite of that they and he were banned.

Lancealot is punished for things he seemed to have willfully committed. A rogue agent connected to him is suspect but we aim to give people the benefit of the doubt; plus he’ll already be punished via embarrassment of his friends behavior.

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@MonkeyBara

RM has his faults but he is not wrong about how shitty last minute multi-account votebombs are.

He’s also usually quite chill about losing debates. It’s infrequent for him to report votes made against him.

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So easy to kritik…

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@Americandebater24
@WillyB

My understanding of the Geneva Convention rules, is that they only apply when both nations in a conflict signed it.

As an example, medics are supposed to be clearly marked so that snipers /do not/ shoot such a high value target…

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@Greyparrot
@Nickjken
@Savant
@Akrasia

I skim debates when reviewing votes, and thought “so what” was a paraphrasing.

Appeals can of course be made to whiteflame.

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Read the first couple rounds, but I have important goals to get to. Here are my initial thoughts...

My interpretation of the resolution is that America is more so a symbol of democracy and freedom than not.

"The evidence put forward by the pro is based on statistical data. Not factual evidence for that matter."
I'm a data scientist, a statement like this is quite funny to me. With 14 countries ranked higher, arguing they don't have the exact same laws as us so they're less free ignores so very much which is easily summarized on the data charts.
A better tactic here would have been pointing out that the USA is ranked 15, less than 0.9 of a point below the very top (all the top slots at fractions apart), and more than twice as free as the bottom.

Other countries:
Both had good examples of the USA supporting or opposing democracies around the world.
Things like Nato, and supporting Ukraine, seem like present day examples of the USA shining brightly. Also as a veteran of the Iraq war, I am curious how we interfered with freedom of religion? The death toll was however a good point, as it's a recent ugly mark on our record for which we accomplished nothing.
Pretty sure this will swing back and forth through the debate.

Supreme court:
Pro argues it is undemocratic since they are appointed without elections.
Con defends that free people follow it, and it only institutes laws proposed by freely elected people.
This area feels like a wash to me, with it just part of the representative democracy.

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@Average_Person
@Americandebater24
@MonkeyBara

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>Reported Vote: Americandebater24 // Mod action: Removed
>Voting Policy: info.debateart.com/terms-of-service/voting-policy
>Points Awarded: 5 to pro
>Reason for Decision: See Comments Tab.
>Reason for Mod Action:

It's almost a good vote.
A touch more detail on the con side should be given, even as much as you obviously disagree with offering anything other than the scientific definition.
Sources was also problematic, since the award seemed to basically be a repeat of the argument allotment, rather than either side offering excellence.

...

Sources are optional and if awarded require a strong quality lead. Sources go to the side that better supported their case with relevant outside evidence and/or analysis thereof. If both sides have done their research due diligence, these points are usually tied.
A side with unreliable sources may be penalized, but the voter must specify why the sources were unreliable enough to diminish their own case (such as if the other side called attention to the flaws, thereby engaging with sources in a more effective manner with impacts to arguments; thereby flipping the source and harming the opposing argument).

The voter acted in such a way to suggest they did not give fair weighting to the debate content.
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Americandebater24
08.02.2023 03:45PM

#2
Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Better arguments
3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:
Pro points out that Humans fit under the scientific definition of animals. Con never addresses this point from a scientific aspect. In contrast, Con did use more sources than Pro. But those sources only provided word definitions that, while numerous, did not establish a scientific definition that excluded or had a separation from the definition of animals. Con should have tried to use scientific definitions to refute Pro, not merely use word arguments that are primarily not relevant. Great debate, Pro and Con.

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@RationalMadman

Your 5th trait was toxicity. While you played up the comedy with just focusing on why we should not be cannibals, I presume other types of animals are meat based. ;)

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@Greyparrot
@Nickjken
@Akrasia

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>Reported Vote: Greyparrot // Mod action: Not Removed
>Voting Policy: info.debateart.com/terms-of-service/voting-policy
>Points Awarded:
>Reason for Decision: See Votes Tab.
>Reason for Mod Action:

The vote was found to be sufficient per the site voting policy standards.
...
I'll add that the vote is very useful in giving feedback on one possible argument path they would have found compelling.

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@Average_Person
@Best.Korea
@Pevensie

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>Reported Vote: Average_Person // Mod action: Not Removed
>Voting Policy: info.debateart.com/terms-of-service/voting-policy
>Points Awarded: 3 to con
>Reason for Decision: See Votes Tab.
>Reason for Mod Action:
The vote gives plenty of detail, and doesn't imply any bias.

The vote was found to be sufficient per the site voting policy standards.
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@Lemming
@Bella3sp
@the_quiet_poet9

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>Reported Vote: the_quiet_poet9 // Mod action: Removed
>Voting Policy: info.debateart.com/terms-of-service/voting-policy
>Points Awarded: 3 to con
>Reason for Decision: Both addressed all of the arguments given by each other pretty well, but pro kind of blew over how dueling would effect society as a whole. I liked the quotes given by con.

>Reason for Mod Action:

In essence, this vote was just too vague... This can be avoided in future by just commenting on the core contention (and the main counterpoint or the lack thereof), listing a single source you found important (if voting sources), saying what conduct violation distracted you (if voting conduct)... You need not write a thesis, but some minimal level of detail is required to verify knowledge of what you're grading.
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My tactic would be showing overwhelming proof of Christianity existing, and contracting it with fictional religions.

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@FishChaser

Get control of yourself or take a forced break from this site.

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Must is a really hard qualifier to support.

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I advise including bullet point summaries of key takeaways in the final round.

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@Best.Korea

You’re good.

More debates (even repetitive ones) are almost always a good thing.

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@Average_Person

The comments are not considered part of the debate, even while they are hopefully topical to it.

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@DebateArt.com

While instances like this are thankfully rare, this does exemplify why it would be useful for moderators to be able to remove votes even after the voting period has closed.

Even without correcting ELO, this would still mitigate the impacts of such poor faith voters.

While the exact ELO shifts are lost to the system; treating a changed outcome as two wins for a fresh ELO shift would be a decent approximation.

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@logicalman2023

Genders should be filter options on more dating sites. I (and presumably many like me), only wish to pursue cis-gendered members of the opposite sex, and it's annoying to see trans people listed as if they are exactly the same, when they obviously do not appeal to certain desires.

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Con for his part outlined five traits, some of which were more effective than others; most of them used implicit moralities such as self interest to not eat high levels of mercury (or other toxins). When I first read this I did not get where con was going with the value of work trait, yet I’m going over this again it makes perfect sense that if any were to become food it ought to be the less productive.

The big thing is degrees of intelligence/sentience. While con did not explicitly prove that killing and eating is a-okay, pro was arguing against the status quo, meaning it was pro’s job to first show it as clearly unethical within the frameworks under discussion (which was a place of high ambiguity).

I think the real place con won this was simply not siding with the meat industry. Pro has built in pathos and ethos appeals if discussing the horrible conditions in pig farms. He lacks that as a generalization about the act of consuming meat itself (be it from a humane farm, or hunting).

Were this debate on how we’re hypocritical in our treatment of animals, pro would take it. Us being hypocrites, closely resembles an institutional kritik but fails to dismiss that humans are far far worse to kill.

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Guilty on all counts, or just some subset?

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I personally find the humor offered by con to be superior. Not that either actually made me laugh; but it’s at least amusing to see the entire (weak) basis for a case flipped to favor the opposite side.

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I’ll be back later to finish…

Fun read.

Pro, I’ll actually suggest tossing some emojis in to compliment your argumentation style. While I’m imagining you calling con a rapist and such in John Cleese’s voice, without clarity that you’re committing to hyperbolic humor it’s a noteworthy conduct violation.

I’d also suggest starting a topic like this aimed at just one specific species. Pigs for example. The link for animals showing empathy included too many animals which are not farmed, while leaving out cows.

What is meant by sentient should be included in the description; as was, con was swiftly able to show insurmountable difference in degrees of sentience via humans moral reasoning. Why comparing to mentally disabled humans failed, is due to the averages con pointed out; exceptions are poor for setting rules. That super intelligent dog ought to not be farmed for being as smart as Forest Gump, says little about the rest of them.

Oh and never end a debate with a statement like: “ We wouldn't even be having this conversation if humans weren't sentient and that is the true basis of human value.”

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@tigerlord

Sadly the content of debate rounds can not be edited.

You can ask your opponent to share your link in their argument, and/or provide it at the start of your next round. Most judges don’t have a problem with this type of typo correction.

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Whiteflame could rule differently if any get reported. But that’s unlikely. The debaters are both fine with it; and there is no evidence of duress.

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@RationalMadman

Technically those votes are based on outside content. If reported, they won’t pass muster.

We’ve had people try to win in the comment section and forums (with the voting on some debates clearly reflective of this instead of debate content). So the rule is votes must be based on the debate rounds

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My reading on these terms disagrees with all of them.

Black pill = suicide because you weren’t born perfect enough to get what you want from life.
Red pill = genetics determine everything, and women are not human but rather a type of animal with no control over what they like and no ability to appreciate effort.
Blue pill = disagreeing with Incels and/or not hating women.

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@Sir.Lancelot

It was reported awhile ago, so not part of any current heat.

If memory serves, it was reported by some rando I offended elsewhere. Neither a Korean, nor a madman.

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@RationalMadman
@Sting

> "I am done reacting. You poked the bear. Enjoy your time here."

No threat detected. Certainly a statement which implies dislike, but nothing which implies any intent to inflict harm.

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>Reported Vote: Intelligence_06 // Mod action: Not Removed
>Voting Policy: info.debateart.com/terms-of-service/voting-policy
>Points Awarded: 0
>Reason for Decision: See Votes Tab.
>Reason for Mod Action:

Null vote.
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@Sting

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>Reported Vote: Sting // Mod action: Not Removed
>Voting Policy: info.debateart.com/terms-of-service/voting-policy
>Points Awarded: 0
>Reason for Decision: See Votes Tab.
>Reason for Mod Action:

Null vote, so meaningless to remove. It would otherwise be problematic had it assigned any points.
If in any strong doubt as you begin voting again, assigning no points and asking for reviews on the RFD is a good way to go.
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Removed for ineligibility (additionally, some small amount of feedback to the debaters would be nice).
Sting
07.16.2023 01:04PM
Reason:
macman rapped better here

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