The liberal need to "do something"

Author: thett3

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@thett3
INTP versus ESFJ

intp can be found in both "left" and "right" circles

esfj can be found in both "left" and "right" circles
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@Lemming
old ronnie thinks there's a difference (between) corporations being controlled by government (and) government being controlled by corporations

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@3RU7AL
I don't like Rap,
But it's interesting for music to take an interest in politics,
Eh, Reagan had faults, but he's a nice speaker, I like some of his thoughts and what he's done, been part of.
Was more Bipartisanship back then, I 'think.
I'm not fond if Big Government.
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@3RU7AL
Could you give me some examples of right-wing INTPs?
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@bmdrocks21
Don't care, didn't ask.
Actually you participated in the thread and attacked left-wing people. Therefore, you opened yourself up to be replied to by anyone who identifies as that.

You are speechless because you have zero worthwhile rebuttal to what I said.
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@bmdrocks21
Just to expand on this, I think another issue with the right-wing in this country as opposed to the left-wing is that we often don't seem to have something that we aspire to. If you ask a liberal what they want, they will often have a pretty specific answer for you. It will often be some egalitarian utopia that won't be ever possible to achieve. So, they will forever have this end goal to aspire to, not unlike religion.
Yes, I have noticed that myself. I don’t have a perfect answer myself for what I would like society to be like, but in a country where at least 50% of people disagree with the liberal project I shouldn’t have to come up with it all by myself. But here we are. I think part of the problem is that the conservative generally understands that utopia is impossible and therefore has no grand vision because you’ll never get to a perfect society. So he fights a tactical battle. Meanwhile the liberal, especially with religiosity waning and politics acting as a substitute, does believe in Utopianism. Or at least acts as if they do, which is what matters. So they fight strategically, pushing incremental change towards and ideal. 

This has been going on for an extremely long time. While Harvard professors or NYT columnists 80 years ago couldn’t have foreseen (and wouldn’t have supported) things like CRT or transgender children the basic structure of the world—a globalized, liberal economic order backed up by a hegemonic United States is absolutely something they would’ve supported. You can see the seeds for this planted long long ago if you read old stuff. 

However, if you ask most conservatives what they want, you'll not get some great vision. You'll generally get a response like wanting the 1950s back or back in the prime of [insert name of some world empire]- something that has come and gone. We are willing to settle for a civilization too easily. The most prevalent statement for what conservatives want is related to be against something rather than for something. For example, we don't like CRT, we don't want sex changes for mentally ill children, we don't like how the welfare state is currently set up- we just look at things and want them to be different than they are. We are only really united by the feeling that things aren't as they should be.
Part of the “problem” with this is that things are just so incredibly comfortable. Americans don’t realize how good they have it, even most of Western Europe is quite poor compared to American living standards. So the impetus for radical change isn’t really there. Liberals really are playing with fire by pushing the envelope on erasing all identity and the defenestration of white people. If they had left well enough alone holding onto the Obama coalition which included massive numbers of working class whites would have put republicans in the political wilderness for decades. 

I do have some hope because the leftist ideas I’m most opposed to are just incredibly contrary to reality. Giving mentally ill children life altering hormones for example isn’t something that rational minds can debate, it’s just fucking monstrous and insane and the consequences cannot be covered up. The cracks are already beginning to show: https://old.reddit.com/r/detrans/
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If they had left well enough alone holding onto the Obama coalition which included massive numbers of working class whites would have put republicans in the political wilderness for decades.
Probably the best pre-2016 piece written on American elections: 

“The larger number of white working-class voters implies that Democrats are far more dependent on winning white working-class voters, and therefore more vulnerable to a populist candidate like Mr. Trump.

Over all, 34 percent of Mr. Obama’s supporters were white voters without a college degree, compared with 25 percent in the exit polls, according to an Upshot statistical model that integrated census data, actual results and 15,000 interviews from various pre-election surveys…The data implies that demographic shifts played a somewhat smaller role in Mr. Obama’s re-election than the postelection narrative suggested. Even if the electorate were as old and as white as it was in 2004, Mr. Obama would have won, because of the gains he made among white voters in states like New Mexico, Colorado and Iowa.

Hispanic voters played only a modest role in Mr. Romney’s defeat. They cost him Florida — a must-win state for Republicans, but also the closest contest. Elsewhere, Mr. Obama would have easily survived even if Mr. Romney had equaled George W. Bush’s 2004 share of Hispanic voters.” 

Working class whites shifted Republican by double digits in 2016 and working class Hispanics did the same in 2020. Biden won because he managed to win back a lot of whites who were tired of Trump and were duped into believing he was a moderate and would govern like Obama did. If Hillary Clinton had the politics of her husband when he was President she would’ve won easily and it would’ve been a knock out blow for republicans for a long time. 


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@thett3
 even most of Western Europe is quite poor compared to American living standards. 
you ever interacted with or live in western europe to say that?
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@RationalMadman
Could you give me some examples of right-wing INTPs?

INTP is the most likely to identify as "independent" (49%)
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@3RU7AL
So, could you give me an example of INTPs that identify as right-wing?
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@RationalMadman
you ever interacted with or live in western europe to say that?
No, it doesn’t come from experience so if I was proven wrong I would be willing to admit that. But just in terms of the numbers they speak for themselves: https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/us-gdp-per-capita-by-state-vs-european-countries-and-japan-korea-mexico-and-china-and-some-lessons-for-the-donald/

I don’t speak another language so I dont know what it’s like in other countries but when I’ve looked into what housing prices are like in the UK and what people get for the amount they pay,  what you get in the US is heads and shoulders better. 

I think a lot of the stuff about the US being a hellscape for the common man is just ignorance, with the exception of the US healthcare system which really is a complete disaster and about as bad as they say. It’s worse to be poor in the US but every other economic class probably has it better 
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@RationalMadman
So, could you give me an example of INTPs that identify as right-wing?
I always got INTP or INTJ on those things but I haven’t taken on in a very long time. And I would consistently get INTP or INTJ but every letter was marginal. I’ll see if I can take one again later 
bmdrocks21
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@RM


You are speechless because you have zero worthwhile rebuttal to what I said.
No, I don’t waste my time trying to change the minds of people that block me. Blocking just shows me upfront that you won’t meaningfully engage with and consider anything that I say


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@bmdrocks21
No, I don’t waste my time trying to change the minds of people that block me. Blocking just shows me upfront that you won’t meaningfully engage with and consider anything that I say
but apparently you are moved to action when taunted
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@3RU7AL
but apparently you are moved to action when taunted
It takes me minimal effort to respond sarcastically. I just relayed that not only did I not care, I also didn’t ask
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@thett3
Probably the best pre-2016 piece written on American elections:
While the number is shrinking, the White electorate is 69% of registered voters as of 2019.

That means that Republicans could hypothetically (ignoring electoral votes for simplicity) win 73% of the White vote and 0% of other races and win the presidency. Really proves how crucial it is to not demonize this demographic- trying to go full South Africa decades too early….
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@thett3
Yes, I have noticed that myself. I don’t have a perfect answer myself for what I would like society to be like, but in a country where at least 50% of people disagree with the liberal project I shouldn’t have to come up with it all by myself. But here we are. I think part of the problem is that the conservative generally understands that utopia is impossible and therefore has no grand vision because you’ll never get to a perfect society. So he fights a tactical battle. Meanwhile the liberal, especially with religiosity waning and politics acting as a substitute, does believe in Utopianism. Or at least acts as if they do, which is what matters. So they fight strategically, pushing incremental change towards and ideal. 

I'm a little confused. Could you expand a little more on what you mean with conservatives being tactical and why you think that doesn't incrementally change things the way that a 'strategic' style does?

This has been going on for an extremely long time. While Harvard professors or NYT columnists 80 years ago couldn’t have foreseen (and wouldn’t have supported) things like CRT or transgender children the basic structure of the world—a globalized, liberal economic order backed up by a hegemonic United States is absolutely something they would’ve supported. You can see the seeds for this planted long long ago if you read old stuff. 

Liberals really are playing with fire by pushing the envelope on erasing all identity and the defenestration of white people. If they had left well enough alone holding onto the Obama coalition which included massive numbers of working class whites would have put republicans in the political wilderness for decades. 
I think that these insane things we are seeing, while they likely wouldn't be supported by many of the earlier scholars, are inevitable when you take the ideas to their logical conclusion. If you try to tear down all traditional forms of identity like the three Rs (race, religion, and region) you are going to have people coming up with increasingly weirder forms of identity like these wacky 100s of sexualities they have now. When you try to minimize the inherent qualities of gender and that your identity is what you choose, you will have people denying biological realities and thinking they can be whatever gender they want- including those more than just the mentally ill. Even supporting a structure of glorifying victims/pushing affirmative action (benefits for supposedly oppressed) you create a system where there are going to be more made up identities to get the favor of this system.

Part of the “problem” with this is that things are just so incredibly comfortable. 
I believe there has been some writing on this.... Relating back to the original post, when things are just so comfortable, you'll have people manufacturing crises to have some sort of goal. Things like "bird watching and hiking are racist".
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@thett3
Because ultimately this kind of behavior comes from an ever present feeling among many liberals that they must DO SOMETHING!
I don’t think the difference is that liberals feel the need to do something where conservatives do not. The difference I see is how the two sides focus their energy. Liberals tend to focus their activism on platforms and through spaces like the Oscar’s or through sports. Conservatives focus their energy at the voting booth and also things like school board meetings. It’s why despite the fact that most liberal policies enjoy overwhelming support nationally, national elections are still so close.

If liberals treated politics the way conservatives do, either the parties would shift dramatically left or the republicans would be an insignificant minority.
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@thett3
I always got INTP or INTJ on those things but I haven’t taken on in a very long time. And I would consistently get INTP or INTJ but every letter was marginal. I’ll see if I can take one again later 
INTJs can definitely be right-wing but I doubt even one single left-winger identifies as right-wing because traditionalism and many 'values' of the Right Wing directly violate the ethos and mindset of INTPs.

I also think that ESTJs are absent of left-wingers among them.
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@bmdrocks21
No, I don’t waste my time trying to change the minds of people that block me. Blocking just shows me upfront that you won’t meaningfully engage with and consider anything that I say
I could 'name and shame' people who you'd never find meaningful engagement with on here but since at least one of them is on 'your side' and I want to avoid drama, I will leave it at that.

Blocking you and meaningfully engaging with you are independent of each other.

I considered what you wrote at the end of the page before and I assure you, you're strawmanning brutally and perhaps don't realise it.
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@thett3
INxP

is the fundamental opposite to 

ESxJ

when it comes to politics and approach to life.

T vs F is actually the least important Myers-Briggs factor in political alignment despite what either side may go around telling you.
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@thett3
INTJs can definitely be right-wing but I doubt even one single left-winger identifies as right-wing because traditionalism and many 'values' of the Right Wing directly violate the ethos and mindset of INTPs.
Oh god, I meant INTP... brainfart or something lol

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@Double_R
 Liberals tend to focus their activism on platforms and through spaces like the Oscar’s or through sports. Conservatives focus their energy at the voting booth and also things like school board meetings.
I think there's some recency bias in the highlighted bit here. Conservatives spent DECADES ignoring school issues, thinking that meeting the person who will be spending 8 hours a day with your child all year one time at parent-teacher night is good enough--which sounds kinda insane in hindsight even disregarding the politics aspect. Something happened, either covid making parents see what the kids are actually being taught in schools or the insanity of 2020 caused teachers to overplay their hand and start teaching some truly crazy stuff, but something shook them out of their malaise. 

I do agree that conservatives tend to vote more, mostly because old people vote more



It’s why despite the fact that most liberal policies enjoy overwhelming support nationally, national elections are still so close.

If liberals treated politics the way conservatives do, either the parties would shift dramatically left or the republicans would be an insignificant minority.
Well sort of. I agree that liberal economic policies are generally popular. But in states that have referendums there's always this weird thing where something that polls really well (like enhanced background checks for guns, or gay marriage throughout the 2010s) underperforms its polling performance by quite a bit. I think theres a polling phenomenon going on of, basically: 

"Do you support X?" 65% yes, 30% no 

"Do you support doing the things required to get to X?" 52% no, 41% yes etc etc 
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@bmdrocks21
I'm a little confused. Could you expand a little more on what you mean with conservatives being tactical and why you think that doesn't incrementally change things the way that a 'strategic' style does?
Libs always fight for incremental change, and have a vague understanding of how to get there. And will take temporary concessions to help get there. For a very basic example think about how many political careers got ruined in order to pass Obamacare. For something more serious, think about how illegal immigration deeply harms Democrats whenever they are in power but they are nonetheless lenient about it every time. Why? Because they seem to correctly realize that the demographic change is more important for them in the long run than the few marginal seat that will be lost in the next election. I just don't see that from the other side. They had seven years of prep time and didn't have a plan ready to repeal Obamacare. Again Obamacare is a really banal example but I think it demonstrates how hapless the GOP is. The only issue from my lifetime I can think of off the top of my head where it seems that the right wing has essentially won is guns, and in that case there was a powerful interest group that took the lead in that fight, not the party. The NRA fought like the left, and they won

 If you try to tear down all traditional forms of identity like the three Rs (race, religion, and region) you are going to have people coming up with increasingly weirder forms of identity like these wacky 100s of sexualities they have now. When you try to minimize the inherent qualities of gender and that your identity is what you choose, you will have people denying biological realities and thinking they can be whatever gender they want- including those more than just the mentally ill. Even supporting a structure of glorifying victims/pushing affirmative action (benefits for supposedly oppressed) you create a system where there are going to be more made up identities to get the favor of this system.
Yea I still don't think liberalism as a whole as really grappled with the reality that much of your identity is just chosen for you, and that it's actually healthy for that to happen. Teenagers have always tried to identify themselves in some way as they grapple with their identities as they come into man/womanhood but man do I miss the classic teenage rebellion instead of thinking too much about gender. I wonder if some of what these kids are saying comes from something real, though. I have a theory that processed foods and endocrine disrupters have basically poisoned American kids. IDK how anyone can see pictures or videos of high school students from the 80s or before and not think they look unbelievably stronger and healthier, more present. Maybe a lot of these kids don't feel like men or women, feel so far off of the paragons of man and womanhood that they don't even wanna try. The smartphone didn't help either imo.

The highlighted bit is particularly dangerous imo. I think convincing people that they are victims or oppressed pretty much just makes them assholes. I know I have dabbled in the white victimhood thing a bit (look at these mean things people I dont know are saying online :(((((((( ) and it's just not good. So immature and bad for you, can't imagine focusing my entire identity around that sort of thing.

That was super rambly, sorry
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@thett3
That was super rambly, sorry
Thats ok thett, the liberals are taking action while you ramble on.

Biden has been taking action. Ex to counter war in Ukraine Biden has taken action to impose consequences on Putin via Russaia in general.

Florida's governor may take action to stop children and adults from using word ' gay ' on school property.

A woman ---liberal?-- on a Russian news program took action to protest Putin  --she risked life and 15 years in prison--  and his aggression in Ukraine while you were rambling on.

Ukrainian liberals took actions a few years back to kick out Russia's pawns, and instead, elect a comedian as president. Putin didn't find this funny but Orange Trumpet and his Trumpanzee's were happy to attack our USA employess taking action to expose the truth in Ukraine.  There was an investigation to see if crimes were committed by Trumpet or those around  him.

That report did not rule out that crimes or bad behavior did not occur with them.





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@RM

Your comment was essentially just a partisan attack saying “conservatives strawman a lot”, which didn’t appear to be engaging with anything I said.

But if you feel that I’ve straw manned lefties, feel free to let me know
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@bmdrocks21
But if you feel that I’ve straw manned lefties, feel free to let me know
I think you strong-man them too much TBH. 
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@thett3
I think there's some recency bias in the highlighted bit here. Conservatives spent DECADES ignoring school issues
The school board thing is new, I was really just using that as an example. The point here is really a difference in culture. Conservatives tend to be more rural and more white, and I think in both of those groups politics is looked at differently. In conservatives circles you’re more likely to get into a discussion about politics at the dinner table or on thanksgiving. Here it seems more personal, leading to a greater sense of ownership. It’s why low turnout elections always favor republicans, because these groups are going to come out no matter what.

That sense of ownership comes from a place of trust in the system itself, or at least the idea that you’re supposed to be able to trust it. It’s why the stolen election narrative is such a big thing on the right. To them the system is supposed to work, so invoking a sense of threat is very effective. On the left the notion tends to be that the system never worked, so claiming the election was stolen really wouldn’t have an impact. Liberals instead tend to focus on the people, which is why cancel culture is more prevalent there.

I think theres a polling phenomenon going on of, basically:

"Do you support X?" 65% yes, 30% no

"Do you support doing the things required to get to X?" 52% no, 41% yes etc etc
I just don’t think that’s it. The simple fact is that it’s always easier to give something than to take it away. Conservatism is about conservation, so it will always be the position on the losing end of change. In part because of that, and in part because of everything I just said above, these folks end up with a disproportionate say in how our government works because these are always going to be the people who show up to vote.

Take background checks for instance; it has something like 93% support. But if democrats put a bill on the floor what happens? Here come the conspiracy theories about democrats trying to take everyone’s guns. By the time the fear mongers are done every conservative in America is standing by with an ak47 in their hand declaring war on the imaginary gun snatchers. Ok I’m exaggerating, but not really. It’s just easier to rile people up than to inspire them, so change is difficult to say the least.
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@Double_R
That sense of ownership comes from a place of trust in the system itself, or at least the idea that you’re supposed to be able to trust it. It’s why the stolen election narrative is such a big thing on the right. To them the system is supposed to work, so invoking a sense of threat is very effective. On the left the notion tends to be that the system never worked, so claiming the election was stolen really wouldn’t have an impact. Liberals instead tend to focus on the people, which is why cancel culture is more prevalent there.

Republicans certainly are more likely to have a naive belief about what society is really like, or was in like in the past, although thats clearly fading. I wouldn't be shocked if Republicans have lower social trust/faith in the institutions than Dems do now. Trump lost a lot of upper middle class suburbanites, who the system is working quite well for, in exchange for a lot more lower socioeconomic status voters who tend to be more cynical. Like I wrote earlier in the thread the coalitions in the Obama/Romney election are actually quite different than what we have now. But yeah I agree with what you're saying broadly


Take background checks for instance; it has something like 93% support. But if democrats put a bill on the floor what happens? Here come the conspiracy theories about democrats trying to take everyone’s guns. By the time the fear mongers are done every conservative in America is standing by with an ak47 in their hand declaring war on the imaginary gun snatchers. Ok I’m exaggerating, but not really. It’s just easier to rile people up than to inspire them, so change is difficult to say the least.
This is exactly what I meant though, about polling vs. actual results. In 2016, a referendum regarding universal background checks for all firearms purchases failed in Maine (https://ballotpedia.org/Maine_Background_Checks_for_Gun_Sales,_Question_3_(2016) ) and one in Nevada passed by less than 1 point (https://ballotpedia.org/Nevada_Background_Checks_for_Gun_Purchases,_Question_1_(2016) ) These are both light blue states...it's very easy to get Americans (probably people in general? But IDK enough about other countries to say) to say they support something but once its explained to them in practice sometimes they go the other way. A great example is how a solid majority support "No fly zones" in Ukraine, as if we have some magic switch to flip. Once it's explained that this means directly engaging the Russian Air Force in combat a solid majority says no. So while it might seem like Dems in congress are super cautious about pushing progressive policies when you look at polling data, they are a lot more intimately familiar with elections than either of us are. The situation is more complicated than it appears
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@ebuc
Florida's governor may take action to stop children and adults from using word ' gay ' on school property.
I'm not a Florida lawmaker so my opinion on the bill doesn't matter, so I haven't looked into it much. Maybe there are some poison pills in there that I don't know about. But the general idea, that Kindergarteners through third graders shouldn't be taught about sex, gay sex or transgenderism is something I support. Do you want sex education to start that young?