there are no good reasons to not get the shot for most who are unvaccinated

Author: n8nrgmi

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#31
Double_R
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@thett3
I’m still so flabbergasted at the idea of the President ordering private citizens to get a vaccine or lose their jobs. I could not have even imagine that occurring two years ago. The Overton window has shifted to authoritarianism incredibly quickly
You think the emergence of a pandemic that has killed 700k Americans in just over a year might have had something to do with that?
#32
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@Double_R
You misspelled obese Americans.

America, the only place where a virus can discriminate but a Democrat can't.
#33
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@Double_R
You think the emergence of a pandemic that has killed 700k Americans in just over a year might have had something to do with that?
That has nothing to do with what the president has the power to do, no
#34
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@thett3
I really wonder how Democrats would feel about a mandatory Vax for the obese and elderly only.
#35
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@Double_R
Also, those 700k fat and elderly Americans were replaced by double by unvaxxed skinny and young invaders through the open borders in the era of Biden.
The virus is just part of the great replacement Democrat scheme.

#36
949havoc
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The left organizes itself on the basis of exceptions, and not a common sense equitable standard. They mandate, but then create exceptions, and expect this is how rights need to be administrated, when rights need no administration whatever. There are three factors that a vaccine mandate ignores, even by exception:

1. No vaccine is 100% effective, but is effective in a majority of cases.
2. There is proven natural immunity. No, this is not 100% effective, either, but effective in a majority of cases.
3. There are other therapies developed that are effective. They are not 100% effective, either, but are in a majority of cases.

People die of Covid. It is not the primary cause of death in the U.S. That distinction belongs to heart disease, a malady that happens to have a naturral remedy in 70% of cases, according to the CDC: a proper diet that lacks a constant intake of fast/junk food, but, that remedy is not a mandate, is it? Cancer cases wold be eliminated by 60% by the same choice to clean up our diet. But that's not a mandate, either. So, does government really want to ameliorate your heathcare, or does it just want to control your lives?

We already have standing statutes that help control our public interaction that, most of the time, protect the fulfillment of our rights as citizens. No, they are not a guarantee that no one will contract Covid, but the vaccines we have in play now for other diseases are not 100% effective, either, yet we use them, and allow people who do not want to take advantage of them to avoid them. Why not Covid?

Because the left has an agenda of mandated control of society that has enabled economic, religious, and educational shutdowns, demonstrated to be ineffective in preventing contraction of Covid. Yet they insist. 

Can someone give me a rational explanation why y'all still insist? No, I don't think you can, primarily because of the three factors above.
#37
RationalMadman
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@949havoc
A lot of people against vaccination on Covid think it's only about stopping deaths. The actual suffering and time needed to rest off work is severe even for the healthy, it's a complete roulette gamble how severe one's particular set of genes and health will be vs Covid virus, the difference between the very symptomatic with long-standing fatigue (months beyond having the onset of Covid) and the type who are asymptomatic is not really about age, there's healthy 23 year-olds suffering severely from Covid unable to take a long walk without severe cramps and rapid breathing occurring, months after having the onset of it because it has some kind of permanent deterioation effect to certain people and it isn't clear how or why that's decided.

The vaccine secures you as having shallow symptoms vs what you'd otherwise have if you get infected.
#38
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@RationalMadman
The vaccine secures you as having shallow symptoms vs what you'd otherwise have if you get infected.
I have had the Covid vaccine, and my doctor recommends having the booster, which I will take, as well. I believe in vaccines. But, your statement of security is not an absolute. Virtually any vaccine is a crap shoot with appreciated advantages, but not absolute security.
#39
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@949havoc
Exactly.
#40
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@zedvictor4
If he believed what he wrote in the 'crap shoot' section, he wouldn't be doing what he admits in the first sentence. Very simple to understand.

If he is taking it, why is he being so pedantic about supporting it?

I don't even side with making it mandatory, I just don't like the arguments 'it has no guaranteed benefit' which he quickly backpeddled on. I tis guaranteed to benefit, sometimes the severe side effects get in the way, extremely rarely. It's a crap shoot to try and get the side effects.

What is true is we don't know if there's lingering side effects further down the line.
#41
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@RationalMadman
The way I look at it is:

1. Most people  are vaccinated from birth against potentially debilitating or fatal infections. Covid undoubtedly falls into the category of potentially debilitating or fatal.

2. Over the past 200 years life expectancy has increased significantly, and vaccination plays a significant role in this increased expectancy.

3. All medical interventions come with a risk of side effects. 

4. We do not know the lingering side effects of many things.

5. Yet we do know the potential side effects of certain things, and we carry on regardless. Smoking, over consumption of alcohol, over consumption of processed food, poor diet generally, lack of exercise etc etc.

6. Age is not a guarantee, of risk from the debilitating and fatal effects of covid infection.

7. Life is a crapshoot anyway.


All things considered, I conclude that for me at 61 years of age, a healthy lifestyle and vaccination is a no brainer.

And I might be knocked of my bicycle tomorrow.


#42
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Like Russell Brand, I don't trust big Pharma.

#43
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Here is another video from Russell Brand exposing the intolerance of the radical authoritative left.

#44
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@thett3
You think the emergence of a pandemic that has killed 700k Americans in just over a year might have had something to do with that?
That has nothing to do with what the president has the power to do, no
Ok, let me rephrase… imagine we find ourselves in the middle of a serious and deadly pandemic, what actions should the federal government take to ensure the safety of its citizens?
#45
Double_R
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@949havoc
Can someone give me a rational explanation why y'all still insist? No, I don't think you can, primarily because of the three factors above.
Because unlike every other ailment you mentioned, Covid is contagious. And because it is contagious, and because every single case as well as every single death was a direct result of catching the virus from someone else… that necessarily means that this is a virus that cannot be fought at the individual level. It can only be fought against by society at large.

Vaccines are the only action any one of us can take to do our part in fighting the virus. After the fact therapeutics do nothing for society. Catching Covid to gain antibodies endangers society further, and even if you already have those antibodies, vaccines will still increase your antibodies thereby further protecting you and those around you.

So at the end of the day this entire discussion comes down to one very simple question… do you believe you have any obligation to the society you are a part of? The consensus I gather from those who oppose these mandates is a clear “No”.

And if that’s the case then the resolution here is simple - if you don’t care about the rest of us then we don’t care about you. I’m not putting my health in any unnecessary danger because you care more about your freedom to do whatever you want than you do about doing your part to protect me and my family. It’s that simple.
#46
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@Double_R
Catching Covid to gain antibodies endangers society further

Exactly what process endangers the vaccinated population? What exactly are the limits of the vaccine to keep the population safe?
#47
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@RationalMadman
If he is taking it, why is he being so pedantic about supporting it?
Because I believe it is a matter of free choice, not by mandate. Is that so hard to understand?

As a matter of fact, I also believe with paid healthcare by individuals by private health insurance, if necessary - what we used to do, healthcare is also by free choice, by the way. I am not compelled to have healthcare if I don'n need it. I'm not certain anyone will have choice in having healthcare under a completely mandated healthcare for all. How, where, and by whom your healthcare is managed under medicare for all will become a crap shoot, I guarantee it, but you will be mandated to take it.
#48
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@Double_R
Vaccines are the only action any one of us can take to do our part in fighting the virus.
Nice try, but that statement ignores that:

Individuals that have already had the virus, and survived, may also have natural immunity.

Individuals who contract the virus have seen marked improvement and cure by therapeutics. Vax is not the only game in town.
#49
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@Greyparrot
Exactly what process endangers the vaccinated population? What exactly are the limits of the vaccine to keep the population safe?
No vaccine is 100%, so within the vaccinated population where will be infections, hospitalizations and deaths. That’s just math.

I don’t know if that addresses your question so if not please be a little more specific.
#50
Double_R
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@949havoc
Nice try, but that statement ignores that:

Individuals that have already had the virus, and survived, may also have natural immunity.

Individuals who contract the virus have seen marked improvement and cure by therapeutics. Vax is not the only game in town.
I already addressed all of that in the second paragraph of my post:

Vaccines are the only action any one of us can take to do our part in fighting the virus. After the fact therapeutics do nothing for society. Catching Covid to gain antibodies endangers society further, and even if you already have those antibodies, vaccines will still increase your antibodies thereby further protecting you and those around you.


#51
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@Double_R
I don’t know if that addresses your question so if not please be a little more specific.

I'm asking you to be more specific as to how the unvaccinated or naturally vaccinated are putting the pharmaceutically vaccinated at dire risk.

What are the dangers of the pharmaceutical vaccine that can put you at risk from those people?
#52
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@Greyparrot
Big Pharma.

They're the companies that make the life sustaining drugs that billions of people crave and demand.

If you don't trust them, you can always knock up your own medicines in your basement lab.
#53
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@Double_R
When there’s a vaccine available I don’t think they need to do anything. Let people choose. Being made unemployed and unemployable for not wanting a vaccine for which there is no long term data, and for which if you’re in certain classes (natural immunity or young and healthy) is a net negative to your health is a grotesquely disproportionate punishment.

I don’t think the President should be able to implement this punishment (and that’s exactly what it is, no matter what euphemisms people choose to use) with no due process and no legislative input
#54
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@zedvictor4
They're the companies that make the life sustaining drugs that billions of people crave and demand.

If you don't trust them, you can always knock up your own medicines in your basement lab.

Oh you mean the Drugs like Oxy which are set to outright kill and permanently disable with addiction over 10 times the amount of people Covid affected this year alone?

No thanks sir. You can trust something else.

Not to mention Big Pharma created Covid in the 1st place.
#55
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@Greyparrot
It was just a general observation.

I work in the pharmacy industry and people demand and crave drugs, quite often when they don't actually need them and Doctors seem to quite happily prescribe them....And of course "Big Pharma" will sell them.

Such is humanities insecurity.

But as I always point out, life expectancy is twice what it once was, thanks to pharmaceutical and medical advances.

As for Covid...... There's a strong possibility that it was Lab produced, though whether it was intentionally leaked to create the ongoing vaccine situation is one for the conspiracy theorists.

Nonetheless, Covid is out there and shouldn't be taken lightly.
#56
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Monopolies and oligarchs in DC should never be taken lightly.
#57
Double_R
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@Greyparrot
I'm asking you to be more specific as to how the unvaccinated or naturally vaccinated are putting the pharmaceutically vaccinated at dire risk.
It’s not about individual risk, at least not directly. This is about keeping the virus from widely circulating, which is what the unvaccinated are aiding. That’s what causes risk to us individually as well as the economic consequences. As much as the anti vax anti mask anti anything-to-fight-Covid crowd thinks, when Hospital ICU’s are completely full and refrigerator trucks are being called in to store dead bodies, locals stay home and travelers stay away.
#58
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@thett3
Let people choose. Being made unemployed and unemployable for not wanting a vaccine for which there is no long term data, and for which if you’re in certain classes (natural immunity or young and healthy) is a net negative to your health
1. Please provide one example of an approved vaccine that was known to have long term side effects. Anywhere. Ever.

2. Please explain how getting vaccinated is a net negative to the health of any one group.

I don’t think the President should be able to implement this punishment (and that’s exactly what it is, no matter what euphemisms people choose to use)
It’s not. Punishment, by definition, is carried out for the purpose of being punitive. Mandates are for the purpose of improving public safety. Besides, Biden isn’t even mandating the vaccine, if you don’t want to take it you can get tested weekly, so this argument fails in more ways than one.
#59
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@Double_R
1. Please provide one example of an approved vaccine that was known to have long term side effects. Anywhere. Ever.
I don't believe that there is a long term side effect. I'm 99% sure that there won't be one. However, to me, that isn't nearly sure enough that I'm willing to force people to take it. The fact is that there IS no long term data 

2. Please explain how getting vaccinated is a net negative to the health of any one group.
I already did, if you have natural immunity than you don't need the vaccine. Therefore any risk, no matter how small, results in a negative cost-benefit analysis. There's also at least some evidence that for people at almost no risk from Covid (specifically, healthy young men under the age of 40) the known vaccine side effects may be more risky than the virus itself: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFph7-6t34M&t=23293s

"When you look at the balance of risks vs. benefits [of the vaccine] we really start to see the risk of myocarditis being higher in males under the age of 40.”

It’s not. Punishment, by definition, is carried out for the purpose of being punitive. Mandates are for the purpose of improving public safety. Besides, Biden isn’t even mandating the vaccine, if you don’t want to take it you can get tested weekly, so this argument fails in more ways than one.
The mandate for federal contractors, federal workers, or active duty military, which encompass millions and millions of people, does not have a testing provision. It remains to be seen if the testing provision will actually be allowed by companies as it will no doubt be expensive. I seriously doubt that if Biden had ordered a mandate without a testing provision any of you would be against it because of that.

Arguing that it isn't a punishment to lose your job for not wanting to take the vaccine is pure sophistry. The mandate is a stick, not a carrot. 

Here is why I believe the vaccine mandate is unjust. Essentially, I think the policy needs to cross three thresholds in order to be proven just and I believe that it fails on all three:

1) Is not taking the vaccine an act society ought to punish? 

Because I believe in the efficacy of the vaccines, and because Covid is quite clearly going to be endemic at this point, I don't see why people should be forced to take it. In England, which has better data than the US due to the NHS, only 0.8% of deaths of fully vaccinated people "involved" COVID: https://www.businessinsider.com/covid-vaccine-fully-vaccinated-death-breakthrough-cases-ons-2021-9 

And keep in mind that "involving" covid does not mean "died of Covid" as opposed to "died with covid" so the actual number is likely even smaller. The vaccines provide amazing protection to the vulnerable, therefore not taking it does not aggress on another persons rights. Moreover, there are no doubt people, no matter how small of a percentage they may be, where the risks of the vaccine do outweigh the rewards and forcing them to take it would be unjust, but that is exactly what the mandate does. 

2) Is the penalty just? The penalty for not wanting the vaccine is being fired from your job, and potentially being made all but unemployable depending on how rigorously enforced the vaccine mandates are and what career a person is in. For many, this amounts to being thrust into poverty, or at the very least experiencing some severe financial straits. A fine is an infinitely more just penalty for such a minor infraction. The risk an unvaccinated person poses to a vaccinated person is probably equivalent to or less than the risk a speeder or red light runner poses to a safe driver, crimes that carry significantly lower penalties than losing your job and being barred from employment in all major companies. 

3) If it's an act that ought to be punished, and the penalty is just and proportionate, is a Presidential mandate the appropriate mechanism to implement the punishment? I say the answer is CLEARLY no. We have democratic and judicial oversight for a reason, and although the mandate is likely legal that's only because of the complete abrogation by congress of its powers. This mandate is something that would be extremely unlikely to be passed by congress, and if it was the penalty would be subject to the 8th amendment provisions against cruel and unusual punishment and would likely be struck down on that basis. That the mandate is NOT subject to this oversight in my mind speaks for itself. 

Indeed this type of mandate is another worrying step in the direction of a merger of state and corporate authority (quite literally the definition of fascism) that neatly circumvents the older checks that were placed on power. No, it's not a *punishment*, it's for "public safety" and not related to the law at all! No, you aren't being censored, these are just private companies removing posts as is their right. Why yes, they do take their guidance on which types of speech represents a "domestic terrorism threat" from the federal government, why do you ask?
#60
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@Double_R
Vaccinated people are spreading the virus though. There's a whole lot of misinformation about that which leads vaccinated people to congregate around and spread every known virus, not just covid.

at least not directly.

What's the  indirect risk of taking a pharmaceutical vaccine and spreading every known virus?

 That’s what causes risk to us individually as well as the economic consequences. 

Politicians do that, not the virus.

when Hospital ICU’s are completely full and refrigerator trucks are being called in to store dead bodies, 
Then We obviously need more hospitals and morgues to handle a virus that killed a fraction of the population instead of hiding our collective heads in the sand arbitrarily thinking we could realistically maintain forever this outrageous disproportionate birth to death ratio because some blonde on TV or pasty faced  grey haired politician in DC said we could. A ratio I think which is around 4 million births to 3 million deaths at the moment annually in America.