Is anything perfect.

Author: zedvictor4

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#31
3RU7AL
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@fauxlaw
This ignores the fact that God created all things with imperfection in order for those things to learn to be perfect by free will. Yours is the fallacy that an omnipotent God can only act by extreme omnipotence. Nope. He has free will, too.
PERFECT GOD = PERFECT WORLD

A PERFECT OMNISCIENT GOD CANNOT LEARN ANYTHING

A PERFECT OMNIPOTENT GOD CANNOT BLAME OTHERS
#32
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@Lemming
Mathematics?

Yes, Meta-Space { Metaphysical-1 } mind/intellect/concepts are the closet humans can come to knowing perfection i.e. there is not perfect circles or spheres of Universe, only higher and higher frequencies of shorter, curved trajectories, that, define a sphere-spherical.  Geodesic domes are the perfect{?} example of that concept.

The  Epicot center at Disenyland FL is a 16 fequency geodesic and at first glance appears to be a sphere, when in actuality, it is only spherical and not a true sphere aka perfect sphere.








#33
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@3RU7AL
HUMAN INSTINCT IS THE "CAUSE" OF "SIN"
Human action is the cause of "sin."

Let's define "sin."

an immoral act considered to be a transgression against divine law.
Sin is not an instinct. We can debate which instincts influences which actions, but we can't necessarily quantify how those tendencies influence a "bad" action anymore than a "good" action.

This changes the syllogism.

THE PERFECT GOD CREATED HUMAN INSTINCT
While this is true, we cannot argue that a Perfect God created the "act."

THE PERFECT GOD KNEW THE CONSEQUENCES OF HUMAN INSTINCT
Omniscience would indeed dictate that.

THE PERFECT GOD FOLLOWED A PERFECT PLAN
I suppose.

AND EVERYTHING IS GOING ACCORDING TO PERFECT GOD'S PERFECTLY PERFECT PLAN
I would suppose that as well.

THEREFORE, WE LIVE IN A PERFECT WORLD
This needs a bit more elaboration, particularly the establishment of the connection between "perfect plan" and "perfect world." Furthermore, I would add that "perfect" isn't necessarily indicative of "good" or "evil" depending on how its defined. It suffices to say that our world "fits perfectly" into God's plan if that's the argument being made. Does this mean that mean that the world itself is "perfect"? We'd have to know that perfect God's perfect definition.


#34
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@3RU7AL
well your wrong
#35
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@zedvictor4
Perfection is a human construct born out of nothing but our own desires
#36
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@Dr.Franklin
well your wrong
Can you be slightly more specific?
#37
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@Athias
THEREFORE, WE LIVE IN A PERFECT WORLD
This needs a bit more elaboration, particularly the establishment of the connection between "perfect plan" and "perfect world." Furthermore, I would add that "perfect" isn't necessarily indicative of "good" or "evil" depending on how its defined. It suffices to say that our world "fits perfectly" into God's plan if that's the argument being made. Does this mean that mean that the world itself is "perfect"? We'd have to know that perfect God's perfect definition.
the connection between "perfect plan" and "perfect world":

PERFECT GOD = PERFECT PLAN = PERFECT-EXECUTION-OF-THE-PERFECTLY-PERFECT-PLAN = PERFECT WORLD
#38
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@Athias
HUMAN INSTINCT IS THE "CAUSE" OF "SIN"
Human action is the cause of "sin."
DO YOU BELIEVE THAT HUMAN ACTION IS CAUSED OR UNCAUSED ?
#39
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@3RU7AL
PERFECT GOD = PERFECT PLAN = PERFECT-EXECUTION-OF-THE-PERFECTLY-PERFECT-PLAN
I agree up until this point.

= PERFECT WORLD
perfect in what context? Do you see a distinction between a "perfect world" and a world "perfect for God's plan"?
#40
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@3RU7AL
DO YOU BELIEVE THAT HUMAN ACTION IS CAUSED OR UNCAUSED ?
Caused.

#41
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@Athias
perfect in what context? Do you see a distinction between a "perfect world" and a world "perfect for God's plan"?
EVERYTHING IS EXACTLY AS THE PERFECT GOD PERFECTLY INTENDED IT TO BE.

THERE IS NO VARIATION.

THERE IS NO DEVIATION.

THE WORLD AS WE KNOW IT IS EXACTLY WHAT PERFECT GOD WANTS IT TO BE.
#42
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@Athias
DO YOU BELIEVE THAT HUMAN ACTION IS CAUSED OR UNCAUSED ?
Caused.
DO YOU BELIEVE THAT DESIRE CAUSES (INTENTIONAL) ACTION ?
#43
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@3RU7AL
EVERYTHING IS EXACTLY AS THE PERFECT GOD PERFECTLY INTENDED IT TO BE.

THERE IS NO VARIATION.

THERE IS NO DEVIATION.

THE WORLD AS WE KNOW IT IS EXACTLY WHAT PERFECT GOD WANTS IT TO BE.
Fair enough.

DO YOU BELIEVE THAT DESIRE CAUSES (INTENTIONAL) ACTION ?
No. Desire results neither in necessary action nor necessary inaction.



#44
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@Athias
DO YOU BELIEVE THAT DESIRE CAUSES (INTENTIONAL) ACTION ?
No. Desire results neither in necessary action nor necessary inaction.
(IFF) HUMAN ACTION IS CAUSED (THEN) WHAT CAUSES HUMAN ACTION ??
#45
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@3RU7AL
(IFF) HUMAN ACTION IS CAUSED (THEN) WHAT CAUSES HUMAN ACTION ??
Admittedly this is a particularly difficult question to answer. I won't be able to provide anything empirically satisfactory. It could be a whole host of things which aren't necessarily reproducible--e.g. "desire" to kill doesn't necessarily result in killing or the attempt to kill; on the same token, "desire" to kill doesn't NOT result in killing or the attempt to kill. At my capacity, I could only say that reason is the cause of action; I suppose you could argue that we are a sum of our instincts, experiences, gnosis--both private and shared, etc. which informs said reason but even then it's difficult to establish a direct link between any one of those components and action, since in spite of those components, inaction can result as well.

#46
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@Athias
(IFF) HUMAN ACTION IS CAUSED (THEN) WHAT CAUSES HUMAN ACTION ??
Admittedly this is a particularly difficult question to answer. I won't be able to provide anything empirically satisfactory. It could be a whole host of things which aren't necessarily reproducible--e.g. "desire" to kill doesn't necessarily result in killing or the attempt to kill; on the same token, "desire" to kill doesn't NOT result in killing or the attempt to kill. At my capacity, I could only say that reason is the cause of action; I suppose you could argue that we are a sum of our instincts, experiences, gnosis--both private and shared, etc. which informs said reason but even then it's difficult to establish a direct link between any one of those components and action, since in spite of those components, inaction can result as well.
Eloquently stated.

However, perhaps you might consider the following example.

You eat a lot of delicious food (because you desire delicious food because you've developed a habit of eating things in order to live and they might as well be delicious things) and some time after you've eaten your delicious food, you feel an almost irresistible impulse to rush to the bathroom.

What is the CAUSE of your impulse in this case?
#47
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@3RU7AL
perfect is subjective, gods perfect intent was to create a world that isnt perfect
#48
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@Dr.Franklin
perfect is subjective, gods perfect intent was to create a world that isnt perfect
PERFECT GOD'S DEFINITION OF PERFECT IS PERFECTLY OBJECTIVE (AND PERFECT)

PERFECT GOD'S PERFECT INTENT WAS TO CREATE A WORLD THAT IS PERFECT ACCORDING TO THE PERFECTLY OBJECTIVE DEFINITION

(if you don't think the world is perfect (from your SUBJECTIVE human perspective), then you're obviously mistaken)
#49
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@3RU7AL
PERFECT GOD'S PERFECT INTENT WAS TO CREATE A WORLD THAT IS PERFECT ACCORDING TO THE PERFECTLY OBJECTIVE DEFINITION
where do you get that logic
#50
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@Dr.Franklin
PERFECT GOD'S PERFECT INTENT WAS TO CREATE A WORLD THAT IS PERFECT ACCORDING TO THE PERFECTLY OBJECTIVE DEFINITION
where do you get that logic
IF THE WORLD EXISTS AS PERFECT GOD CREATED IT, THEN THERE IS ZERO CHANCE THAT PERFECT GOD "MADE A MISTAKE"

IT IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR AN OMNISCIENT OMNIPOTENT PERFECT GOD TO PRODUCE "UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCES"

THEREFORE, EVERY SINGLE DETAIL OF THE WORLD AS WE KNOW IT MUST BE EXACTLY AS PERFECT GOD INTENDED
#51
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@3RU7AL
IT IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR AN OMNISCIENT OMNIPOTENT PERFECT GOD TO PRODUCE "UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCES"
he didnt do that
#52
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@Dr.Franklin
IT IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR AN OMNISCIENT OMNIPOTENT PERFECT GOD TO PRODUCE "UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCES"
he didnt do that
DOES THAT MEAN WE AGREE THAT PERFECT GOD = PERFECT WORLD ?
#53
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@3RU7AL
no, intent matters
#54
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@Dr.Franklin
no, intent matters
IT IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR PERFECT GOD'S INTENT TO BE INCONGRUENT WITH PERFECT GOD'S PERFECT EXECUTION OF PERFECT GOD'S INTENT
#55
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@3RU7AL
again perfect is subjective to you pal, god fusing heaven and earth together is the perfect thing for God
#56
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@Dr.Franklin
again perfect is subjective to you pal, god fusing heaven and earth together is the perfect thing for God
THE WORLD IS EXACTLY AS PERFECT GOD INTENDED IT
#57
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@3RU7AL
PERFECT GOD = PERFECT WORLD
Why?  Nice equation, but, clearly, the world is not perfect, and that says nothing for the condition of God.  This is not his home. It's ours.

A PERFECT OMNISCIENT GOD CANNOT LEARN ANYTHING
Learning amounts to more than just learning facts, i.e., knowledge of stuff. Once we have knowledge, we learn the wisdom of using that knowledge to best benefit. Omniscience does not necessarily include that second step.

A PERFECT OMNIPOTENT GOD CANNOT BLAME OTHERS
More to the point, God, being perfect, need not blame anyone for anything. Laying blame is not the end and means of justice; that's just the beginning, and it is not necessary for God to do that. We handle that, ourselves, who are not perfect, yet. Consequences are God's to manage.
#58
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@Dr.Franklin
Omnipotence is impossible.

How would God logically do, for example the two things simultaneously:

  • Killing everyone in the world at 12:01:59 PM(+8) 07/18/2021(as how we interpret it)
  • Not doing anything at 12:01:59(+8) 07/18/2021

If you say "god can do it, you just can't understand", this just means god cannot make the person known as Intelligence_06 on DebateArt.com comprehend the idea of a perfect god in 7/19/2021 12:03:01 PM(+8).
#59
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This is on top of that morality cannot be objective as the concept of morality changes within society. If morality is objective according to the Bible or something, it would mean that an ideal society probably has girls being slaves, first-born children being killed, women being lashed, thinking being ultimately limited, free thinkers persecuted, etc.

No? Our morals change over time. Even if Jesus and his disciples thought homosexuality was weird in 1st century AD, it isn't now, and maybe you shouldn't use the eyes of the past to judge the present, otherwise we would be confiscated our computers and mobile phones and live in a place where sedatives don't exist and the common cold is deadly.
#60
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@Intelligence_06
omnipotence isnt doing something that is logically incoherent. it simply means all-powerful. the maximum powerful being

omnipotence isnt defined by "the ability to do anything you want"