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@Stephen
You didn't read the post, did you?
Paul's Message is Irrefutable
Posts
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@Fruit_Inspector
You didn't read the post, did you?
YEP! And I don't care for your opinion. To me the video hits the nail on the head. It suites the likes you to scream "CONTEX" & CHERRY PICKING" when it fkn suites you to do so. Your an armature, not to mention a dulcet dunce when it comes to these scripture. I have shown you to be wrong and you haven't even bothered to answer my question have you, you little wannabe academic.
Try these questions on the you have convenient skipped;
Does Paul make a distinction between a physical and a spiritual resurrection?
Did Jesus walk in to a closed room? If your answer is yes then simply tell us how did he did it?
Meantime, here another thing you didn't know while simply quoting one verse without "CONTEXT!!!"
as it is written: “There is no righteous person, not even one;..."
CONTEXT!!!
This is the account of Noah and his family. Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked faithfully with God.Genesis 6:9
[Zechariah and Elizabeth] And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.Luke 1:6
And if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the depraved conduct of the lawless. 2 Peter 2:7
By faith Abel brought God a better offering than Cain did. By faith he was commended as righteous, when God spoke well of his offerings. And by faith Abel still speaks, even though he is dead. Hebrews 11:4
Let me know if you need any more lessons.
CONTEXT!!!!
Like I said, Paul was a liar and had doctored OT verses to suit and further his own agenda.
CONTEXT!!!!🤣
LEARN YOUR BIBLE BEFORE CLAIMING ANYTHING ABOUT SCRIPTURE YOU CLOWN!!
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@Stephen
The video is ridiculous because no one who takes the Bible seriously argues like that. I am actually more concerned with people who take a statement like "God is love" out of context than I am with angry and bitter individuals like you who take other verses out of context.
The fact is that context always matters. That's true whether we're talking about the Bible, or a ridiculous conversation on the DebateArt forums.
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@PGA2.0
There is no historical account of it being disputed, and it was not just one man that witnessed His resurrection. Peter, John, James, and other NT writers speak of witnessing the resurrected Christ.
Actually, (not that it is needed) there is historical dispute of the resurrection of Jesus - Plutarch.
Besides the legendary accretion, which seems to be present in the Gospels (which challenges the accuracy), there is also the fact that these anecdotal accounts were written by anonymous persons removed by decades from the purported events.
On top of that, you can use the Bible for claim or evidence, but not both. Pick one or the other. I'm not impressed by Biblical 'clevidence'...and I don't know why you are.
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@Fruit_Inspector
I am actually more concerned with people who take a statement like "God is love" out of context than I am with angry and bitter individuals like you who take other verses out of context.
"CONTEXT"!!!!!!!! AGAIN. Change the fkn record, ffs!
I am actually more concerned with people who take a statement like....
I am concerned with those that believe that dead rotting and stinking corpses come back to life, those that believe a flesh, blood and bone man can walk on water and cure blind people by spitting on them. By those that believe in a god that wasted perfectly good "miracle" on making sure his wedding guests had plenty of wine to drink.
The fact is that context always matters. That's true whether we're talking about the Bible, or a ridiculous conversation on the DebateArt forums.
You do not have to take part and no one is forcing you. Are you so fkn lonely that you have to take part in "ridiculous conversations" about things you do not know? Simply leave if it is all so ridiculous. You are too thick to argue your own corner anyway.
Now about those questions that you keep avoiding;
Does Paul make a distinction between a physical and a spiritual resurrection?
Did Jesus walk in to a closed room? If your answer is yes then simply tell us how did he did it?
If you don't want to answer simply stop bothering me , you idiot.
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@Stephen
If you don't want to answer simply stop bothering me , you idiot.
No one is forcing you to take part in this forum. I started this thread, so it makes sense that I'm involved in it. Do you believe that context matters when one is trying to read text?
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@Fruit_Inspector
No one is forcing you to take part in this forum. I started this thread,
Very true. But you posted THIS TO ME>>>>
No response?
#209
And I responded. You then completely ignored my questions AGAIN and still are ignoring my questions AGAIN..
Now for the fifth time; about those questions that you keep avoiding;
Does Paul make a distinction between a physical and a spiritual resurrection?
Did Jesus walk in to a closed room? If your answer is yes then simply tell us how did he did it?
If you don't want to answer simply stop bothering me , you idiot. Oh, and don't for get to make sure you answers are biblically verifiable and in "context".
Now, off you go.
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@Stephen
Oh, and don't for get to make sure you answers are biblically verifiable and in "context".
So context does matter. Got my answer, thanks!
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@Fruit_Inspector
Oh, and don't for get to make sure you answers are biblically verifiable and in "context".So context does matter.
Of course it those you clown.. And you are welcome to put into "CONTEXT" any verse that you believe that I have taken out of context. But you NEVER , ever can.
Now for the SIXTH time; about those questions that you keep avoiding;
Does Paul make a distinction between a physical and a spiritual resurrection?
Did Jesus walk in to a closed room? If your answer is yes then simply tell us how did he did it?
If you don't want to answer simply stop bothering me , you idiot. Oh, and don't for get to make sure you answers are biblically verifiable and in "context".
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@Stephen
I never said I was going to answer. I just wanted to thank you for answering my question about context, and thus making the criticism in your video meaningless. So thanks again!
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@Fruit_Inspector
I never said I was going to answer.
You just don't know the answer if the truth is known. You are just another bible ignorant cretin in the line of the other bible ignorant cretins here who simply want to use this platform as your own pulpit but buckle at the first challenge. But let me tell ya, this is a RELIGION forum , it is not a RELIGIOUS forum. So if you are not prepared to be criticised and challenge on that which you believe, you are on and in the wrong forum.
Now go back to bed, teddy is waiting.
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@Stephen
You just don't know the answer if the truth is known. You are just another bible ignorant cretin in the line of the other bible ignorant cretins here who simply want to use this platform as your own pulpit but buckle at the first challenge. But let me tell ya, this is a RELIGION forum , it is not a RELIGIOUS forum. So if you are not prepared to be criticised and challenge on that which you believe, you are on and in the wrong forum.Now go back to bed, teddy is waiting.
I'll just take that as a long-winded "you're welcome"
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@SkepticalOne
There is no historical account of it being disputed, and it was not just one man that witnessed His resurrection. Peter, John, James, and other NT writers speak of witnessing the resurrected Christ.Actually, (not that it is needed) there is historical dispute of the resurrection of Jesus - Plutarch.
If you reread, I'm speaking of during the time of the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus, less than two months at most of the resurrection. We only have the gospel accounts and epistles until later times except for what is recorded in the gospels about disputes of the resurrection. Here is what we know from the biblical accounts, not extrabiblical accounts of that time because there are none that you could produce:
Matthew 27:62-66
62 Now on the next day, that is, the day which is after the preparation, the chief priests and the Pharisees gathered together with Pilate, 63 and they said, “Sir, we remember that when that deceiver was still alive, He said, ‘After three days I am rising.’ 64 Therefore, give orders for the tomb to be made secure until the third day; otherwise, His disciples may come and steal Him, and say to the people, ‘He has risen from the dead,’ and the last deception will be worse than the first.” 65 Pilate said to them, “You have a guard; go, make it as secure as you know how.” 66 And they went and made the tomb secure with the guard, sealing the stone.
What we learn here, in verse 65, is that the tomb was secured by the Romans who were responsible by their lives for guarding the body.
11 Now while they were on their way, some of the men from the guard came into the city and reported to the chief priests all that had happened. 12 And when they had assembled with the elders and consulted together, they gave a large sum of money to the soldiers, 13 and said, “You are to say, ‘His disciples came at night and stole Him while we were asleep.’ 14 And if this comes to the governor’s ears, we will appease him and [e]keep you out of trouble.” 15 And they took the money and did as they had been instructed; and this story was widely spread among the Jews and is to this day.
"To this day" would have logically been before the fall of Jerusalem because there is no mention of such a significant event having yet taken place in any gospel or epistle. The Jews are still visiting the temple and practicing sacrifices and cleansing rites, as mentioned in many of the texts, such as Acts, 2 Thessalonians, and Revelation.
So, to quell any "deception" of Jesus as rising, the Roman's could have produced the body yet they did not. That is significant.
Just days after Pentecost when 3000 were saved and came to faith Peter preaches a second sermon in which he is arrested and brought before the High Priest. After some deliberating here is what they decided:
14 And seeing the man who had been healed standing with them, they had nothing to say in reply. 15 But when they had ordered them to leave the [l]Council, they began to confer with one another, 16 saying, “What are we to do with these men? For the fact that a noteworthy [m]miracle has taken place through them is apparent to all who live in Jerusalem, and we cannot deny it. 17 But so that it will not spread any further among the people, let’s warn them not to speak any longer to any person in this name.” 18 And when they had summoned them, they commanded them not to speak or teach at all [n]in the name of Jesus.
So, here are the Apostles and many others who came to believe speaking boldly about the resurrection and the High Priest could have asked the Romans to go to the tomb and produce the body and the spread would have ceased, yet we know that Christianity continued to spread to the entire world of that time because there was no body produced. They could not deny what the Apostles were preaching.
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Concerning your point, according to Mike Licona,
1) fifty of the approximate hundred surviving biographies written within 200 years of Jesus were written by Plutarch. Forty-two biographies of his have reoccurring stories have conflicting details.
2) Plutarch was not born until 26 years after the resurrection. He is not an eyewitness to the events of AD 30 or thereabouts.
Besides the legendary accretion, which seems to be present in the Gospels (which challenges the accuracy), there is also the fact that these anecdotal accounts were written by anonymous persons removed by decades from the purported events.
Nope, the Gospels contain accounts that some authors expand on and others contract, their different styles telling different aspects of the same event, and these "purported events" are logically reconcilable. Second, while we don't have autographs from the writers of the Gospels, it is logical to surmise that the tradition of who wrote what would have been known to the early churches since many of these autographs were copied and sent to other churches. Thus, they would have known the writer and transmitted such information, so, many of the early church fathers would know who the writer was.
On top of that, you can use the Bible for claim or evidence, but not both. Pick one or the other. I'm not impressed by Biblical 'clevidence'...and I don't know why you are.
And you can use many historical writing written way after the fact to make claims also, which is what you are doing. I'm not impressed by these accounts, and I don't know why you should be other than you suffer from 21st-century bias and the prevailing secular thought on the subject. So why should I trust your opinion, over 2,000 years removed from the accounts of the Bible?
As Mike Licona, quoting Gary Habermas, said, "If Jesus actually rose from the dead, then Christianity is true." (4:00 -4:05) According to Mike Licona (9:00-9:48 minutes),
1) fifty of the approximate hundred surviving biographies written within 200 years of Jesus were written by Plutarch. Forty-two of these 100 biographies of his have reoccurring stories also have conflicting details.
2) So, while there are such historical accounts doubting the resurrection or historicity, they did not appear until later, not during the earliest days of Christianity. In the mean time, there was also persecutions of Christians and their writings that diminished the number of preserved writings from that time period. Persecution took place under Nero and Domitian and many others according to some, but also all along by the Jews of the 1st part of the rise of Christianity because the internal evidence of the resurrection, the NT records, express some of these persecutions going on under Nero and especially by the Jews.
Here is a short list compiled in Wikipedia of early Christian persecution, but you can find more information from some of the early church fathers (such as Eusebius and Tertullian) on the subject, as well as by other extrabiblical historians of the period.
"The first, localized Neronian persecution occurred under the emperor Nero (r. 54–68) in Rome. A more general persecution occurred during the reign of Marcus Aurelius (r. 161–180).[1] After a lull, persecution resumed under the emperors Decius (r. 249–251) and Trebonianus Gallus (r. 251–253). The Decian persecution was particularly extensive. The persecution of Emperor Valerian (r. 253–260) ceased with his notable capture by the Sasanian Empire's Shapur I (r. 240–270) at the Battle of Edessa during the Roman–Persian Wars. His successor Gallienus (r. 253–260) halted the persecutions.
The Augustus Diocletian (r. 283–305) began the Diocletianic persecution, the final general persecution of Christians, which continued to be enforced in parts of the empire until the Augustus Galerius (r. 310–313) issued the Edict of Serdica and the Augustus Maximinus Daia (r. 310–313) died. After Constantine the Great (r. 306–337) defeated his rival Maxentius (r. 306–312) at the Battle of the Milvian Bridge in October 312, Licinius and his co-emperor Constantine issued the Edict of Milan (313), which allowed tolerance of all religions including Christianity. The Edict of Thessalonica (380) made Christianity the state church of the Roman Empire.
The Augustus Diocletian (r. 283–305) began the Diocletianic persecution, the final general persecution of Christians, which continued to be enforced in parts of the empire until the Augustus Galerius (r. 310–313) issued the Edict of Serdica and the Augustus Maximinus Daia (r. 310–313) died. After Constantine the Great (r. 306–337) defeated his rival Maxentius (r. 306–312) at the Battle of the Milvian Bridge in October 312, Licinius and his co-emperor Constantine issued the Edict of Milan (313), which allowed tolerance of all religions including Christianity. The Edict of Thessalonica (380) made Christianity the state church of the Roman Empire.
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@PGA2.0
There is no historical account of it being disputed, and it was not just one man that witnessed His resurrection. Peter, John, James, and other NT writers speak of witnessing the resurrected Christ.Actually, (not that it is needed) there is historical dispute of the resurrection of Jesus - Plutarch.If you reread, I'm speaking of during the time of the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus,
I understand what you mean, but you're attempting to sidestep the criticism by massively begging the question. The Gospels weren't written at the time of Jesus (or within decades of his death) and they are not eyewitness accounts.
Plutarch was not born until 26 years after the resurrection. He is not an eyewitness to the events of AD 30 or thereabouts.
If we are discounting non eyewitness views, then we are likely discounting most, if not all, of the NT. Also, Plutarch was born in 46 AD, not 56 AD.
Nope, the Gospels contain accounts that some authors expand on and others contract, their different styles telling different aspects of the same event, and these "purported events" are logically reconcilable.
This does not address legendary accretion. The Christology in the earliest gospel is low but by the time we get to the last gospel Jesus is not just given authority by Yahweh - he is God (since the beginning of time). This is what legendary accretion looks like, my friend.
On top of that, you can use the Bible for claim or evidence, but not both. Pick one or the other. I'm not impressed by Biblical 'clevidence'...and I don't know why you are.And you can use many historical writing written way after the fact to make claims also, which is what you are doing. I'm not impressed by these accounts, and I don't know why you should be other than you suffer from 21st-century bias and the prevailing secular thought on the subject. So why should I trust your opinion, over 2,000 years removed from the accounts of the Bible?
I'm pointing out using a source X to support the claim of source X is logically invalid. Your response does not address this.
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@Fruit_Inspector
I agree.
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@Stephen
Your claim of cherry picking on my part is BS. It is you who do the cherry picking, time and time again.
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@PGA2.0
Your claim of cherry picking on my part is BS. It is you who do the cherry picking, time and time again.
CHERRY PICKING . CONTEXT TIME AND TIME AGAIN!!>>>>>>
John -John 20 records the resurrected Jesus appearing to the disciples and later to Thomas.19 Now when it was evening on that day, the first day of the week, and when the doors were [b]shut where the disciples were together due to fear of the [c]Jews, Jesus came and stood in their midst, and *said to them, “Peace be to you.” 20 And when He had said this, He showed them both His hands and His side. The disciples then rejoiced when they saw the Lord...26 [f]Eight days later His disciples were again inside, and Thomas was with them. Jesus *came, the doors having been [g]shut, and stood in their midst and said, “Peace be to you.” 27 Then He *said to Thomas, “Place your finger here, and see My hands; and take your hand and put it into My side; and do not continue in disbelief, but be a believer.” 28 Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!” 29 Jesus *said to him, “Because you have seen Me, have you now believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed.”Acts -Acts 1:2 until the day when He was taken up to heaven, after He had given orders [b]by the Holy Spirit to the apostles whom He had chosen. 3 To [c]these He also presented Himself alive after His suffering, by many convincing proofs, appearing to them over a period of forty days and speaking of things regarding the kingdom of God. 4 [d]Gathering them together, He commanded them not to leave Jerusalem, but to wait for [e]what the Father had promised, “Which,” He said, “you heard of from Me; 5 for John baptized [f]with water, but you will be baptized [g]with the Holy Spirit [h]not many days from now.”...Peter -EyewitnessesFor we did not follow cleverly devised tales when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of His majesty.Then you have Paul's Damascus experience and I could probably cite many more recorded Scriptural instances, so you point does not meet the evidence of Scripture presented by many authors.Matthew -and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection, they entered the holy city and appeared to many.Mark -Mark 16 records Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of [a]James, and Salome witnessing the empty tomb and are told,"7 But go, tell His disciples and Peter, ‘He is going ahead of you to Galilee; there you will see Him, just as He told you.’”Luke -just as they were handed down to us by those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and servants of the word,
You are of the stupid belief that taking a mishmash of verses from the New & Old Testaments in the hope that they appear to dove-tail nicely for the reader and that they will take this as one complete and coherent story is nothing less than slight of hand, by YOU!
We are not all as stupid as you believe we are.
Stephen wrote: Paul was a self confessed liar that admitted to lying to further his cause , his own belief and his own agenda.PGA2.0 wrote: "Romans 3:10as it is written: “There is no righteous person, not even one;..."
CONTEXT!!!
This is the account of Noah and his family. Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked faithfully with God.Genesis 6:9
[Zechariah and Elizabeth] And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.Luke 1:6
And if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the depraved conduct of the lawless. 2 Peter 2:7
By faith Abel brought God a better offering than Cain did. By faith he was commended as righteous, when God spoke well of his offerings. And by faith Abel still speaks, even though he is dead. Hebrews 11:4
Let me know if you need any more lessons.
CONTEXT!!!!
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@Stephen
You:
You are of the stupid belief that taking a mishmash of verses from the New & Old Testaments in the hope that they appear to dove-tail nicely for the reader and that they will take this as one complete and coherent story is nothing less than slight of hand, by YOU!We are not all as stupid as you believe we are.
Also you:
CONTEXT!!!This is the account of Noah and his family. Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked faithfully with God.Genesis 6:9[Zechariah and Elizabeth] And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.Luke 1:6And if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the depraved conduct of the lawless. 2 Peter 2:7By faith Abel brought God a better offering than Cain did. By faith he was commended as righteous, when God spoke well of his offerings. And by faith Abel still speaks, even though he is dead. Hebrews 11:4Let me know if you need any more lessons.CONTEXT!!!!
Irony.
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@Fruit_Inspector
Irony
Nope. Those verses contradict what Paul has to say in Romans 3:10 you absolute dunce. PGA2.0 was trying to excuse Pauls lies with his verse from Romans. Learn to fkn read.
The verse that PGA2.0 was stupid enough to choose to excuse Pauls lies is CLEARLY contradicted by other verse as I have clearly shown.
Now go back to bed or school you little armature. And read your bible when you want to take on those that have read the damn thing for themselves.
And as always, you can always put them into CONTEXT if you feel that I have taken them out of CONTEXT, but you never can. Can you.
😂😂🤣
Off you trot now.
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@Stephen
That was a nice attempt to pivot from a quite humorous blunder.
humorous blunder
You really are as thick as you come across aren't you. Go back and look at what PGA posted in defence of Pauls lies.
Here you are , I will save you the trouble you lazy fkn trollop;
Stephen wrote: Paul was a self confessed liar that admitted to lying to further his cause , his own belief and his own agenda.
I then posted BIBLICAL verses that contradict the idiot. SEE HERE>>>
This is the account of Noah and his family. Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked faithfully with God.Genesis 6:9
[Zechariah and Elizabeth] And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.Luke 1:6
And if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the depraved conduct of the lawless. 2 Peter 2:7
By faith Abel brought God a better offering than Cain did. By faith he was commended as righteous, when God spoke well of his offerings. And by faith Abel still speaks, even though he is dead. Hebrews 11:4
So you see, clown, PGA has been contradicted by the very same bible that he used to excuse Pauls lies🤣.
So unless you want to dispute that those verses do NOT contradict PGS failed attempt at excusing Paul and his fkn lies, you may as well just simply fk off to bed and read teddy some scriptures🤣
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@Stephen
You did it again! 🤣🤣🤣
I then posted BIBLICAL verses that contradict the idiot. SEE HERE>>>This is the account of Noah and his family. Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked faithfully with God.Genesis 6:9[Zechariah and Elizabeth] And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.Luke 1:6And if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the depraved conduct of the lawless. 2 Peter 2:7By faith Abel brought God a better offering than Cain did. By faith he was commended as righteous, when God spoke well of his offerings. And by faith Abel still speaks, even though he is dead. Hebrews 11:4
You are of the stupid belief that taking a mishmash of verses from the New & Old Testaments in the hope that they appear to dove-tail nicely for the reader and that they will take this as one complete and coherent story is nothing less than slight of hand, by YOU!We are not all as stupid as you believe we are.
Stephen wrote: Paul was a self confessed liar that admitted to lying to further his cause , his own belief and his own agenda.
Above PGA is saying "no one is righteous, NOT EVEN ONE". The verses below contradict this.
Ok clown.
(1) Tell me how those biblical verses below do not contradict PGS excuse for Paul's lies.
(2) Put these biblical verses below into context to show PGA post is not contradicted by the bible.
This is the account of Noah and his family. Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked faithfully with God.Genesis 6:9
[Zechariah and Elizabeth] And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.Luke 1:6
And if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the depraved conduct of the lawless. 2 Peter 2:7
By faith Abel brought God a better offering than Cain did. By faith he was commended as righteous, when God spoke well of his offerings. And by faith Abel still speaks, even though he is dead. Hebrews 11:4
Off you go stupid.
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@Stephen
Your claim of cherry picking on my part is BS. It is you who do the cherry picking, time and time again.CHERRY PICKING . CONTEXT TIME AND TIME AGAIN!!>>>>>>
You are completely ignorant to the biblical teaching and can't address documented evidence with anything more than assertions. And when you pick verses you do the very thing you charge me of - cherry pick, which the Bible would say you qualify as a hypocrite.
John -John 20 records the resurrected Jesus appearing to the disciples and later to Thomas.19 Now when it was evening on that day, the first day of the week, and when the doors were [b]shut where the disciples were together due to fear of the [c]Jews, Jesus came and stood in their midst, and *said to them, “Peace be to you.” 20 And when He had said this, He showed them both His hands and His side. The disciples then rejoiced when they saw the Lord...26 [f]Eight days later His disciples were again inside, and Thomas was with them. Jesus *came, the doors having been [g]shut, and stood in their midst and said, “Peace be to you.” 27 Then He *said to Thomas, “Place your finger here, and see My hands; and take your hand and put it into My side; and do not continue in disbelief, but be a believer.” 28 Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!” 29 Jesus *said to him, “Because you have seen Me, have you now believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed.”Acts -Acts 1:2 until the day when He was taken up to heaven, after He had given orders [b]by the Holy Spirit to the apostles whom He had chosen. 3 To [c]these He also presented Himself alive after His suffering, by many convincing proofs, appearing to them over a period of forty days and speaking of things regarding the kingdom of God. 4 [d]Gathering them together, He commanded them not to leave Jerusalem, but to wait for [e]what the Father had promised, “Which,” He said, “you heard of from Me; 5 for John baptized [f]with water, but you will be baptized [g]with the Holy Spirit [h]not many days from now.”...Peter -EyewitnessesFor we did not follow cleverly devised tales when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of His majesty.Then you have Paul's Damascus experience and I could probably cite many more recorded Scriptural instances, so you point does not meet the evidence of Scripture presented by many authors.Matthew -and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection, they entered the holy city and appeared to many.Mark -Mark 16 records Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of [a]James, and Salome witnessing the empty tomb and are told,"7 But go, tell His disciples and Peter, ‘He is going ahead of you to Galilee; there you will see Him, just as He told you.’”Luke -just as they were handed down to us by those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and servants of the word,You are of the stupid belief that taking a mishmash of verses from the New & Old Testaments in the hope that they appear to dove-tail nicely for the reader and that they will take this as one complete and coherent story is nothing less than slight of hand, by YOU!We are not all as stupid as you believe we are.
Again, each verse from different NT authors speak of themselves as eyewitness to His ministry and resurrection, the very thing you say did not happen, you, two thousand years removed who works on talking points of liberal minded scholars with a particular agenda.
I came to realize what many other people know early on in our correspondence, you cannot conduct a reasonable discussion.
Stephen wrote: Paul was a self confessed liar that admitted to lying to further his cause , his own belief and his own agenda.PGA2.0 wrote: "Romans 3:10as it is written: “There is no righteous person, not even one;..."CONTEXT!!!
Context, there is none righteous not one, and those OT people who were called righteous acted on faith in God, NOT their own righteousness.
Each one of them sinned before God but trusted Him in His grace, thus, as described of Abraham, his faith was CREDITED to him as RIGHTEOUSNESS.
What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”
So also Abraham “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”
And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend.
Why was it credited to Abraham? It was credited to him because he was placing his trust in what God would do.
and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith,
People like Noah, Moses, Abraham, and many others, understood they did not have a righteousness before God of their own merit. They did not understand like the NT people, but were looking for what was to come, as evidenced by Hebrews 11, when they would be justified. Anyone who has the courage to read these links will see just that.
7 By faith Noah, being warned by God about things not yet seen, [g]in reverence prepared an ark for the salvation of his household, by which he condemned the world, and became an heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.
8 By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed [h]by going out to a place which he was to receive for an inheritance; and he left, not knowing where he was going. 9 By faith he lived as a stranger in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, living in tents with Isaac and Jacob, fellow heirs of the same promise; 10 for he was looking for the city which has foundations, whose architect and builder is God.
8 By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed [h]by going out to a place which he was to receive for an inheritance; and he left, not knowing where he was going. 9 By faith he lived as a stranger in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, living in tents with Isaac and Jacob, fellow heirs of the same promise; 10 for he was looking for the city which has foundations, whose architect and builder is God.
13 All these died in faith, without receiving the promises, but having seen and welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. 14 For those who say such things make it clear that they are seeking a country of their own. 15 And indeed if they had been [k]thinking of that country which they left, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not [l]ashamed to be called their God; for He has prepared a city for them.
19 [o]He considered that God is able to raise people even from the dead, from which he also received him back [p]as a [q]type.
39 And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive [aa]what was promised, 40 because God had [ab]provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect.
God's righteousness is a perfect righteousness, not like that of those who do some good things and were considered righteous in what they did, but missed the mark in other areas, so that Romans 3:10, as it is written: “There is no righteous person, not even one;..." is made sense of in the greater context, something people like you miss because of your IGNORANCE of biblical teaching.
That is why they (those OT people who had faith in God were looking for the time they would be made perfect, and Christ died for these people as well, to make them holy and righteous before God. So, your verses below have a rational explanation in lieu of Romans 3:10. Just like most of the Jesus during Jesus time on earth you too stumble over the stumbling stone because there is no light in you.
Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though they could by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone,
But if anyone walks during the night, he stumbles, because the light is not in him.”
Speaking of stumbling, let me remind you of something:
For whoever keeps the whole Law, yet stumbles in one point, has become guilty of all.
We know Abraham, Moses and others stumbled, yet because of who their faith was in, it was credited to them as righteousness.
Thus, their need for Jesus Christ is as great as ours, even though they are described as righteous, righteous in that their faith was place IN ANOTHER, thus God credited righteousness to them. That is why God could call them righteous. They were covered by the blood of Jesus Christ and His righteousness.
This is the account of Noah and his family. Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked faithfully with God.Genesis 6:9[Zechariah and Elizabeth] And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.Luke 1:6And if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the depraved conduct of the lawless. 2 Peter 2:7By faith Abel brought God a better offering than Cain did. By faith he was commended as righteous, when God spoke well of his offerings. And by faith Abel still speaks, even though he is dead. Hebrews 11:4Let me know if you need any more lessons.CONTEXT!!!!
Yes, the greater context that you paid little attention to.
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@Stephen
Continuing to post the same verses is not helping your case.
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@Stephen
Ok clown.(1) Tell me how those biblical verses below do not contradict PGS excuse for Paul's lies.(2) Put these biblical verses below into context to show PGA post is not contradicted by the bible.This is the account of Noah and his family. Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked faithfully with God.Genesis 6:9[Zechariah and Elizabeth] And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.Luke 1:6And if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the depraved conduct of the lawless. 2 Peter 2:7By faith Abel brought God a better offering than Cain did. By faith he was commended as righteous, when God spoke well of his offerings. And by faith Abel still speaks, even though he is dead. Hebrews 11:4Off you go stupid.
My last post explained it all without al the ad homs,, although I showed how you were biblically ignorant in your understanding.
Here it is summed up,
But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be provided to you.
whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in God’s merciful restraint He let the sins previously committed go unpunished;
for the demonstration, that is, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,
For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith.
By faith, God CREDITS righteousness to us, the righteousness of Jesus Christ. Just like in the OT, a sacrifice without spot or blemish was offered before God for the sins of the people. The sacrifice had to be pure, and as I have mentioned previously, that sacrifice is Jesus Christ.
Faith has to have an object it places that faith upon, and the NT continually points out that there is forgiveness for sins, of which ALL have fallen short of God's glory because of, is in Jesus Christ. Again, that is because HE, not Moses, not Abraham, not Noah, meets that standard of righteousness, and by His sacrifice the offering of Himself is acceptable to God on OUR behalf, just like the OT sacrifices, provided a COVERING until the acceptable time when God would take away the sins completely of those who believe in Him.
For I handed down to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
who gave Himself for our sins so that He might rescue us from this present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father,
and He Himself brought our sins in His body up on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live for righteousness; by His wounds you were healed.
and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood—
Please note, the OT sacrificial system could never take away sin, only cover it until the time of Christ:
11 Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; 12 but He, having offered one sacrifice for [a]sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 waiting from that time onward until His enemies are made a footstool for His feet. 14 For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are [b]sanctified. 15 And the Holy Spirit also testifies to us; for after saying,
Hebrews 10:15- 18
15 And the Holy Spirit also testifies to us; for after saying,
16 “This is the covenant which I will make with them
After those days, declares the Lord:
I will put My laws upon their hearts,
And write them on their mind,”
He then says,
17 “And their sins and their lawless deeds
I will no longer remember.”
18 Now where there is forgiveness of these things, an offering for sin is no longer required.
I could point out that Abraham, Moses, and Noah did not meet the righteousness of God on their own account, for they sinned, only because of their faith in God and His means of righteousness - faith in His Son!
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@SkepticalOne
There is no historical account of it being disputed, and it was not just one man that witnessed His resurrection. Peter, John, James, and other NT writers speak of witnessing the resurrected Christ.Actually, (not that it is needed) there is historical dispute of the resurrection of Jesus - Plutarch.If you reread, I'm speaking of during the time of the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus,I understand what you mean, but you're attempting to sidestep the criticism by massively begging the question. The Gospels weren't written at the time of Jesus (or within decades of his death) and they are not eyewitness accounts.
No, you are side-stepping now while claiming the opposite. When the NT was written has a massive impact on the resurrection. It is the difference between an after the fact or a before the fact prophecy. Paul based the hope of Christianity on the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Although you have rejected the message and evidence millions throughout history have lovingly received it and believed it and placed faith in Jesus Christ.
I am not begging the question. I have had this discussion many times before in different threads and have supplied reasonable EVIDENCE that the Gospel's and each of the epistles, as well as Revelation was written before the fall of Jerusalem in AD 70. For instance,
1) There is not one instance of the mention of an already destroyed city or temple in any NT writing. This is significant, as John A.T. Robertson has pointed out in his masterful book, Redating the NT.
"ONE of the oddest facts about the New Testament is that what on any showing would appear to be
the single most datable and climactic event of the period - the fall of Jerusalem in AD 70, and with it
the collapse of institutional Judaism based on the temple - is never once mentioned as a past
fact. It is, of course, predicted; and these predictions are, in some cases at least, assumed to be
written (or written up) after the event. But the silence is nevertheless as significant as the silence for
Sherlock Holmes of the dog that did not bark.
For the most part, these are Jews writing about the coming of their Messiah and each writing contains warnings of impending judgment, yet none, not one of an already fulfilled prophecies about the most significant event in their Jewish history with God, the destruction of the temple and city as warned by the OT prophets and teachers, as well as all of them." p. 13
The book is chocked full of evidence for an early writing of the entire NT. Other writers, that I have pointed out to you and others have also built upon that point of the evidence for the early writings of the NT, like Kenneth Gentry, FF Bruce, James Stuart Russell. They documented it. Have you read any other them or are you looking at the information only from liberal 19th century German higher criticism?
2) Throughout the NT there is a constant note of an already standing temple and city, not one that is destroyed. The Apostles visit an existing temple and Jerusalem and make note of the rituals of the OT system of worship that could not be said after AD 70.
3) These NT writers speak of noble things, of the worth of honesty and truth all the time while...what... lying? It does not make sense. They also go to their deaths, for the most part, preaching the resurrection of their Messiah and the resurrection of the dead while suffering horrible deaths.
4) The whole of the NT is said to be a revelation from God, something that you take lightly and brush off. The uniqueness of Scripture (OT and NT) is how unified it is in all its messaging and themes. Jesus made note that all of Scripture speaks of Him, and the NT authors go into the typology and shadows that make this point most convincing, for those who have studied the issue. Not only this, what is applied to God in the OT is applied to Jesus in the NT, as can be noted time and again. To Him every knee will bow, yet that is applied exclusively to God in the OT.
So, my view is far more reasonable and logical that yours. I invite you to compare the evidences for both sides on this issue. Will you even address my four points?
Plutarch was not born until 26 years after the resurrection. He is not an eyewitness to the events of AD 30 or thereabouts.If we are discounting non eyewitness views, then we are likely discounting most, if not all, of the NT. Also, Plutarch was born in 46 AD, not 56 AD.
Sorry, 16 years later - correct, but when did he start researching and writing?
Nope. Most of the NT is written by eyewitnesses of Jesus and His resurrection. They include Matthew, John, Peter, Paul, and James. The other writers, from early church father accounts were disciples and companions of Peter and Paul. You make the point that the writings did not come with the names of the Apostles on them and I countered that when these writers wrote to the churches the churches that received the writings would know who they came from and would pass that significant information on to others when they copied the manuscripts and sent them on to other churches. This would be true of the Gospels also.
Nope, the Gospels contain accounts that some authors expand on and others contract, their different styles telling different aspects of the same event, and these "purported events" are logically reconcilable.This does not address legendary accretion. The Christology in the earliest gospel is low but by the time we get to the last gospel Jesus is not just given authority by Yahweh - he is God (since the beginning of time). This is what legendary accretion looks like, my friend.
The gospels and epistles were written within a short period of time after the resurrection of Jesus, under the GUIDANCE of the Holy Spirit. Jesus promised that He would help them the Helper to recall as well as guide them into the truth. The legendary status is a useful fiction by those who oppose the Bible as the Word of God. It takes faith to believe, either way, yet the evidence supports the biblical accounts as from God. I make a big deal of prophecy for this reason. You say "this generation" does not mean this generation and "this age" does not mean this age. You ignore the audience of address and make it seem like the secondary audience is the main audience concerning prophecy. You do an injustice to the text and to history, sadly, to make your points.
On top of that, you can use the Bible for claim or evidence, but not both. Pick one or the other. I'm not impressed by Biblical 'clevidence'...and I don't know why you are.And you can use many historical writing written way after the fact to make claims also, which is what you are doing. I'm not impressed by these accounts, and I don't know why you should be other than you suffer from 21st-century bias and the prevailing secular thought on the subject. So why should I trust your opinion, over 2,000 years removed from the accounts of the Bible?I'm pointing out using a source X to support the claim of source X is logically invalid. Your response does not address this.
Source X (say the Gospel of Matthew) is backed by Source Y and Z (the other Synoptic gospels), as well as other sources too. The whole of the NT builds upon the themes of Jesus' Olivet Discourse, as well as Paul's writings. That last statement can be well documented. The NT is further built upon the OT Scripture and its fulfillment (the time is near).
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@PGA2.0
I understand what you mean, but you're attempting to sidestep the criticism by massively begging the question. The Gospels weren't written at the time of Jesus (or within decades of his death) and they are not eyewitness accounts.No, you are side-stepping now while claiming the opposite.
Just to recap, you claimed there was no historical dispute of the resurrection. I showed this was mistaken. You then said there was no historical dispute *at the time of the resurrection except for what was recorded in the in the Gospels*. I pointed out the Gospels were not written until decades after the life of Jesus. Now...you are arguing against Biblical scholarship in an attempt to justify your original mistake.
If you want to argue against Biblical scholars, be my guest, but that is a different argument altogether, my friend.
Keeping in mind this was your attempt to establish the existence of an afterlife, I think its safe to say no demonstration has occurred.
Source X (say the Gospel of Matthew) is backed by Source Y and Z (the other Synoptic gospels), as well as other sources too.
FyI, the synoptic Gospels are either copied from each other or utilize a separate unknown single source. Either way, they are functionally one source...my point stands.
365 days later
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@PGA2.0
1) There is not one instance of the mention of an already destroyed city or temple in any NT writing. This is significant, as John A.T. Robertson has pointed out in his masterful book, Redating the NT."ONE of the oddest facts about the New Testament is that what on any showing would appear to be the single most datable and climactic event of the period - the fall of Jerusalem in AD 70, and with it the collapse of institutional Judaism based on the temple - is never once mentioned as a past fact. It is, of course, predicted; and these predictions are, in some cases at least, assumed to be written (or written up) after the event. But the silence is nevertheless as significant as the silence for Sherlock Holmes of the dog that did not bark.For the most part, these are Jews writing about the coming of their Messiah and each writing contains warnings of impending judgment, yet none, not one of an already fulfilled prophecies about the most significant event in their Jewish history with God, the destruction of the temple and city as warned by the OT prophets and teachers, as well as all of them." p. 13
There is a good reason why none of the Gospels mention the destruction of the Holy Temple in 70AD, they were all written after 70AD.
Here is the biblical evidence.
Jesus spoke about the destruction of the temple. 30AD just before his death.
The Destruction of the Temple and Signs of the End Times
Matthew 24:1 Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2 “Do you see all these things?” he asked. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”
But when asked when that was going to happen, he did not know.
Matthew 24:3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”
The disciples of Jesus were waiting for Jesus’s prophecy about the destruction of the temple to happen. But it did not happen during their time and therefore they never spoke about it.
It was decades after the death of Jesus that people put the Gospels together. The Gospels were written in Greek for a Roman audience. It had to skip the nasty things the Romans did to the Jews. After all the new converts to the Roman Catholic Church were Greek citizens. Christianity had displaced Judaism the religion that Jesus and his disciples followed. Finally, the Romans brought salvation to the Gentiles.
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@Shila
For the most part, these are Jews writing about the coming of their Messiah and each writing contains warnings of impending judgment, yet none, not one of an already fulfilled prophecies about the most significant event in their Jewish history with God, the destruction of the temple and city as warned by the OT prophets and teachers, as well as all of them." p. 13There is a good reason why none of the Gospels mention the destruction of the Holy Temple in 70AD, they were all written after 70AD.Here is the biblical evidence.Jesus spoke about the destruction of the temple. 30AD just before his death.The Destruction of the Temple and Signs of the End TimesMatthew 24:1 Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2 “Do you see all these things?” he asked. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”
Who is the "you" Jesus is addressing, the relevant audience?
Hint: It is His disciples. They are the ones who come up to Him and ask Him when these things will be. And who is the "you" in verse 4 and the rest of Matthew 24?
But when asked when that was going to happen, he did not know.Matthew 24:3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”
When will this happen? Jesus tells THEM.
Jesus answered and said to them, “See to it that no one [c]misleads you. 5 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the [d]Christ,’ and they will [e]mislead many people. 6 And you will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not alarmed, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end. 7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pains.
9 “Then they will hand you over to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name. 10 And at that time many will [f]fall away, and they will [g]betray one another and hate one another. 11 And many false prophets will rise up and [h]mislead many people. 12 And because lawlessness is increased, [i]most people’s love will become cold. 13 But the one who endures to the end is the one who will be saved. 14 This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole [j]world as a testimony to all the nations,
9 “Then they will hand you over to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name. 10 And at that time many will [f]fall away, and they will [g]betray one another and hate one another. 11 And many false prophets will rise up and [h]mislead many people. 12 And because lawlessness is increased, [i]most people’s love will become cold. 13 But the one who endures to the end is the one who will be saved. 14 This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole [j]world as a testimony to all the nations,
What will be the sign of Jesus' coming? Jesus tells THEM.
13 But the one who endures to the end is the one who will be saved. 14 This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole [j]world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.
The Gospel was preached to all nations, the NT tells us that multiple times.
First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, because your faith is being proclaimed throughout the world.
But I say, surely they have never heard, have they? On the contrary: “Their voice has gone out into all the earth, And their words to the ends of the world.”
which has come to you, just as in all the world also it is bearing fruit and increasing, even as it has been doing in you also since the day you heard it and understood the grace of God in truth;
in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom He also made the world.
Which last days? Last days of what?
For so the Lord has commanded us, ‘I have appointed You as a light to the Gentiles, That You may bring salvation to the end of the earth.’”
When will the age end? What age is Jesus referring to?
16 But the eleven disciples proceeded to Galilee, to the mountain which Jesus had designated to them. 17 And when they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some [f]were doubtful. 18 And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me. 19 [g]Go, therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to [h]follow all that I commanded you; and behold, I am with you [i]always, to the end of the age.”
Whatever age Jesus was speaking of (Hint: the OT age) He included the eleven disciples in that age. You can't get around that fact without mutilating the NT teaching. Go ahead and try if you want. I suggest you look up "this age" and "this generation" and see what generation it refers to. What makes you thing the time frame can be ignored and placed in another era and with another people that were not the primary audience of address? We are the secondary audience of address, not the relevant audience that Jesus was referring to when He said "you."
The disciples of Jesus were waiting for Jesus’s prophecy about the destruction of the temple to happen. But it did not happen during their time and therefore they never spoke about it.
Yes, it did. There is a vast amount of evidence that confirms it did, both biblical and external.
It was decades after the death of Jesus that people put the Gospels together. The Gospels were written in Greek for a Roman audience. It had to skip the nasty things the Romans did to the Jews. After all the new converts to the Roman Catholic Church were Greek citizens. Christianity had displaced Judaism the religion that Jesus and his disciples followed. Finally, the Romans brought salvation to the Gentiles.
Hebrews, speaking to Jewish Christians about the superiority of Jesus Christ over the Old Covenant worship and sacrifice places the end of that covenant shortly after the time of writing, when an OT temple and ritual system of worship, with its priesthood and animal sacrifice where STILL in existence.
Hebrews 8:13
New American Standard Bible
The Old Covenant was about to disappear. The two covenants existed side-by-side up until AD 70 (40 years, one generation) until everything was accomplished and fulfilled.
Matthew 5:17-18
New American Standard Bible
17 “Do not presume that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill. 18 For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not [a]the smallest letter or stroke of a letter shall pass from the Law, until all is accomplished!
The heaven and earth spoken of was the OT system of worship, the heavens and earth the Jews lived under, the OT economy as the only heavens and earth they knew. The law was completely fulfilled in AD 70. After that there is no more OT temple, priesthood or animal sacrifices and feast days since it is all fulfilled in Jesus Christ, the Lord of all.
Thanks for the reply. Have not been on the forum much lately but hope to have some time Sunday to reply to your post.