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Author: Yassine

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#241
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@Mopac
Filling all things, but outside of it as well. God is certainly not bound by time. Or as we say, God is pre-eternal. That is, eternal in a timeless sense.
- This is a self-contradictory statement. 


- So Jesus is just like everyone else, resurrected & risen to heaven for eternal life...

Jesus Christ IS the resurrection, as it is written by The Apostle Peter who also quotes The Prophet Isaiah...

"Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:
But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you."

And in the words of Jesus Christ...

"Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die."

- Why are all these exalted statements which fit the Church's narrative always appear in John, the last of the 4 Gospels, & in no other of the great number of gospels...


Without recognizing who Jesus Christ really is, it would be impossible to prove this. You say Jesus Christ was simply a man, a prophet. Well, He was not simply a man, He is The Word of God made flesh,
- Yes, just like the Quran says. Jesus (pbuh) designated as 'the soul from God & His word', given his miraculous birth. We don't go around claiming Jesus IS God because of it... The Bible also refers to other characters as 'Son of God', why aren't you calling them gods too?


and as is written by The Apostle John...
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
The same was in the beginning with God.
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not."
- Again, this -THE most foundational doctrine of Christians- is only found in John, & in none of the previous gospels. Why? Because he made it up, or took it from someone who made it up.
#242
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- This is a self-contradictory statement.


And so you deny your own scriptures which testify, that God is nearer than your jugular vein.

We have a similar expression from our scriptures, thst God is nearer than our breath.


- Why are all these exalted statements which fit the Church's narrative always appear in John, the last of the 4 Gospels, & in no other of the great number of gospels

Because The Gospel of John is a Mystagogic gospel, and the other 3 are for catechesis. This is also reflected in our liturgical year. Yet even at the beginning of The Gospel according to the Apostle Matthew..

"Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us."


- Yes, just like the Quran says. Jesus (pbuh) designated as 'the soul from God & His word', given his miraculous birth. We don't go around claiming Jesus IS God because of it... The Bible also refers to other characters as 'Son of God', why aren't you calling them gods too?

Ceartainly, it is even written, "I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High. But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes. Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations."

Jesus Christ is unique in that we are talking about "The Word of God" by whom "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.", that "Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth"

When we speak of Jesus Christ, we speak of The Truth, and how it's incarnation is necessary for all things to exist. When you speak of Jesus, you speak only of a man.

- Again, this -THE most foundational doctrine of Christians- is only found in John, & in none of the previous gospels. Why? Because he made it up, or took it from someone who made it up.

Yet it was you who said that you respect the Apostles as saints. Surely, the Apostles believed as John, but in denying John, you are contradicting yourself and sccusing John of idolatry.
#243
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WARNING  WARNING. WARNING

 WE GOT US A GOD OFF HAPPENING RIGHT HERE.


Ever wondered what happens When one ultimate reality comes within striking distance of another ?
Well let us watch

Taking note. 
Every one quite.

Andddd continue.




 

#244
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There is only One Ultimate Reality, One God. We agree on this.

And you know, there are probably a lot of things we do agree on. 


But Muslims do not understand Orthodox Christianity because their prophet said things about what we believe that aren't true. That being the case, one can not expect superstitions to be expelled over night.

They in effect accuse us of being idolaters for worshipping a man as God, but that isn't actually what we do. We acknowledge The Ultimate Reality as God, just as they do.

However, we Christians do not accept their Mohammed as a prophet. 




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#245
Yassine
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@Mopac
And so you deny your own scriptures which testify, that God is nearer than your jugular vein.
We have a similar expression from our scriptures, thst God is nearer than our breath.
- Yes, that's of course allegorical, it's an expression. God is obviously *not* -literally- nearer than your jugular vein. There are plenty such verses in the Quran, such as "the Hand of God is extended", it doesn't actually mean that the -literal- hand of God is extended. It's just a metaphor for bounty & generosity as the Arabs say, meaning: 'God is Bountiful'. It means God's Mercy is everywhere.


Because The Gospel of John is a Mystagogic gospel, and the other 3 are for catechesis. This is also reflected in our liturgical year. Yet even at the beginning of The Gospel according to the Apostle Matthew..
"Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us."
- Do you how many Bible characters have the root 'el' in them? 'Abiel' = God is my father , Azarel = God helps, Eliakim = God rises... are these names referring to divine beings? No. All these explicit verses which portray the beliefs of the Church are only found in John. In fact, a *lot* of verses in John were found out to be added later on & did not figure in the earlier sources.


Ceartainly, it is even written, "I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High. But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes. Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations."
Jesus Christ is unique in that we are talking about "The Word of God" by whom "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.", that "Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth"

When we speak of Jesus Christ, we speak of The Trut, and how it's incarnation is necessary for all things to exist. When you speak of Jesus, you speak only of a man.
- Again with John quotes. Of course you'll find such quotes in John. We too call Jesus (pbuh) the word of God, as in the creation of God ('He said, or it is'). That doesn't make him God! You have yet to address all the other things I said.


Yet it was you who said that you respect the Apostles as saints. Surely, the Apostles believed as John, but in denying John, you are contradicting yourself and sccusing John of idolatry.
- John is not an apostle, but you call him one. He has never even met Jesus (pbuh). They existed in far removed times & places. The apostles are the 12 Apostles -the disciples of Jesus (pbuh), one of whom is indeed named John -a different one of course. If Jesus (pbuh) is the one you believe, then before you put your trust in someone telling you what Jesus taught, you should check his reliability first. Most who believe in Jesus, believe in their own version of him. Mark, Luke, Mathew & John are no different. Your faith should be in Jesus, not in John (or the others). The question is, can we check wether these authors are reliable? Can we check the veracity of their texts regardless of their reliability?

#246
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- Yes, that's of course allegorical, it's an expression. God is obviously *not* -literally- nearer than your jugular vein. There are plenty such verses in the Quran, such as "the Hand of God is extended", it doesn't actually mean that the -literal- hand of God is extended. It's just a metaphor for bounty & generosity as the Arabs say, meaning: 'God is Bountiful'. It means God's Mercy is everywhere.



We certainly believe that God is omnipresent. You don't because you don't believe in the incarnation. But I tell you no lie when I say that if The Ultimate Reality did not encompass even the reality of creation, God would not be what God is. For you to say that God is not omnipresent is to say that there is reality outside God.


So yes, we believe that God is literally omnipresent.


John is not an apostle


He most certainly was, and he was the only Apostle who was not gruesomely martyred. They tried to boil him alive, but he survived. He lived in Ephesis, which came to be called "The city of the theologian" of whom Saint Timothy was a bishop. John had the distinct honor of taking care of the ever virgin Mary after Jesus' crucifixion. Both John and Paul were pious Orthodox Christians. The writer of the Gospel of Mark was one of the 70 sent out by Christ, and the first Christian church was in his house. He helped spread Christianity to Egypt, and he was Appointed by Peter as bishop. Matthew was made one of the 12 by Jesus Christ himself, having formally been a tax collector. He was burned to death for preaching the gospel. Luke knew Jesus Christ in his life, and was appointed among the 70 that were sent out. Luke was tortured and hanged to death by pagans for preaching the gospel.



- Again with John quotes. Of course you'll find such quotes in John. We too call Jesus (pbuh) the word of God, as in the creation of God ('He said, or it is'). That doesn't make him God! You have yet to address all the other things I said.


One of those quotes was John, and I used it to tie in to a quote from James The Just, who was thrown off the temple and beaten to death for confessing Christ. The other quote was a psalm of Asaph.



The question is, can we check wether these authors are reliable? Can we check the veracity of their texts regardless of their reliability?
The Church has recognized these books as reliable since the beginning, and that made finalizing the canon of The New Testament a great deal easier, because these books had universal acceptance in the church. These books are fit for liturgical use.

If you don't believe that Christ sealed the church with The Holy Spirit, I don't know what to tell you.

#247
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Mop  V  Yass

One of you guys are definitely wrong and i don't think the other one is not correct. 
#248
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@Yassine
it seems to me that i see miracle happening to christians, but not much to muslims. i see near death experiences with christian content, but none with islamic content. this sort of stuff should bother you. 
#249
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@Deb-8-a-bull
If there was a god, one could suspect he deliberately sows the seeds of discord!   He replaced the old covenant with the new that Jews do not accept, and then revealed a 'newer covenant' to Mohammed that Christians do not accept.

If one believed in God, one could believe he wants people to quarrel and fight.   But there is no God and people quarrel over the meaning of stories made up by men long ago and written to further their own selfish interests.



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@keithprosser
I believe this shows us Keith that we can all agree on something. 
And that is,  Everone here in any group and religion is FULLY AWARE  of the fact that there is a group of around 2 billion people that have been mislead  for over a thousand years. 
Weather they got it wrong or are simply being lied to. The fact of the matter is they are doin all this silly nonsense that isn't necessary.
And it totally ruins any chance of ever knowing God.
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@keithprosser
Work this fact keith into a , WHAT SHOULD WE DO.?
Do we try and help them ?

And aShould the godists in the correct group lay down there religion so to speak , in some kind of attempt to end this heaps of group thinhs we have.

And soooooooo many more questions 

The people in the correct group belive the people in the incorrect group should burn in hell for eternity. 

And a eternity keith in religious text is , well we cant be sure because you no how them lot are with exact time and dates . But But, I'm sure a eternity is like a long long time.




.


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@keithprosser
people quarrel over the meaning of stories made up by men long ago and written to further their own selfish interests.

Given what Christianity is, this claim does not make sense. 
#253
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@Deb-8-a-bull
The gospel is very simple.


The Truth sets you free. Love The Truth over all things. Abide in The Truth.

It's very simple. 


But even when it is spoken plainly, none of you believe. Instead you blaspheme and being deceived, you deceive others. The unfortunate side effect is that people die over these things.



#254
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@Mopac
The gospel is very simple.


The Truth sets you free. Love The Truth over all things. Abide in The Truth.
The gospels, like the rest of the book, are full of lies and fiction. Like the temptation in the desert, nobody was there to record that crap, it's a fictional story from start to finish.
That's truth and you are morbidly afraid of it.


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#255
Yassine
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@Mopac

We certainly believe that God is omnipresent. You don't because you don't believe in the incarnation. But I tell you no lie when I say that if The Ultimate Reality did not encompass even the reality of creation, God would not be what God is. For you to say that God is not omnipresent is to say that there is reality outside God.So yes, we believe that God is literally omnipresent.
- So, the creation is part of the Creator?! There is a self-contradiction somewhere in there...


He most certainly was, and he was the only Apostle who was not gruesomely martyred. They tried to boil him alive, but he survived. He lived in Ephesis, which came to be called "The city of the theologian" of whom Saint Timothy was a bishop. John had the distinct honor of taking care of the ever virgin Mary after Jesus' crucifixion. Both John and Paul were pious Orthodox Christians. The writer of the Gospel of Mark was one of the 70 sent out by Christ, and the first Christian church was in his house. He helped spread Christianity to Egypt, and he was Appointed by Peter as bishop. Matthew was made one of the 12 by Jesus Christ himself, having formally been a tax collector. He was burned to death for preaching the gospel. Luke knew Jesus Christ in his life, and was appointed among the 70 that were sent out. Luke was tortured and hanged to death by pagans for preaching the gospel.
- Great men in history generally tend to suffer accordingly. But I was, of course, referring to the author of the latter gospel, which was much later (+100 years later) falsely attributed to the Apostle John (this is true for the other gospels as well). The author -be it anonymous or a different John- portrays beliefs & events not reconcilable with the previous gospels, which were written in Greek for a Greek following by very Greek-fluent & highly educated individuals -not Aramaic natives. Now, if Jesus claimed to be divine, how can such a significant news -the most significant there could possibly be- not be known by the previous authors of the gospels or even mentioned? Image if you found out that later accounts about the Prophet Muhammed make him to be a prophet, yet earlier accounts fail to mention that, what would be your conclusion?


One of those quotes was John, and I used it to tie in to a quote from James The Just, who was thrown off the temple and beaten to death for confessing Christ. The other quote was a psalm of Asaph.
- There seems to be a miscommunication between us here. You are speaking from the assumption of your revelation, I am not. You assume that what these gospels say happened to Jesus (pbuh) & his apostles is what actually happened to them, I don't necessarily believe that -as Biblical scholarship has extensively shown.


The Church has recognized these books as reliable since the beginning, and that made finalizing the canon of The New Testament a great deal easier, because these books had universal acceptance in the church. These books are fit for liturgical use.
- You know there are over 40 gospels written about Jesus (pbuh), each supporting some particular views over others. Agreement among your Church seems to have settled on just 4 of these by the 5th century. Other churches or sects may've had slightly or completely different picks. It just so happens that your side eventually won the following over the others -after all you had the support of the Roman empire after the conversion of Constantinople. Today Iran is a majority Shia country, but that wasn't the case for most of its history. It all begun when a mongol Ilkhanat ruler (of Persia) converted to Shia Islam, which set the way for the Turko-mongol Safavid dynasty to take over. On their turn, early 16th century, they literally forced the Persian people to either adopt Shia or leave or die. From then onward, Iran became a majority Shia country. The Roman empire, which extended from Spain to the Levent, became a majority 'orthodox' country. 


If you don't believe that Christ sealed the church with The Holy Spirit, I don't know what to tell you.
- Why should I believe that? Do you have any proof? Other churches make the same claim too. 

#256
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Islam is not a religion of peace
#257
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@Yassine
Yassine, if your argument is to simply poo poo away the church as if Satan conquered it, and then disregard the scriptures of the church as being uninspired, I will say that you are not going to prop the Koran or your prophet up above the rubble.

You have a very superficial understanding of church history. Studying church history is the reason I became an Orthodox Christian. There was a time I believed as you do, because protestantism needs to believe in the anarchy of the early church to justify its deviation from it. However, it is a false narrative. Holy orders have existed in the church since the beginning,  and those holy orders remain intact and valid only in The Orthodox Catholic Church. Textual criticism of the bible is a very controversial subject, even amongst protestants, and it is a protestant phenomena for sure.

I would also like to point out that modern atheistic secularism is largely the result of the protestants inheriting scholasticism from the Roman Catholics. Protestant churches struggle to resist the pressures of prevailing culture. You have churches with sermons filled with pop culture references, get rich theology, and even openly homosexual clergy. These people certainly aren't the guardians of the faith. They seem to believe that saying you believe in Jesus is a get out of hell free card, and that maybe they should be nice to people as long as it is easy and convenient. But good luck pinning anything down with protestants, because there are thousands and thousands of variations! They are united in their rejection of The True Church.


So, the creation is part of the Creator?! There is a self-contradiction somewhere in there...



God is not divided in parts. God is not made up of cells. Creation is of a distinct physis or nature than The Uncreated or divinity. 

It is a mystery, one that is in a way expressed in our Eucharist. 

How distant what you call God must be if don't truly see God as being everywhere present. How can anything truly be reality without the presence of Ultimate Reality? 



Why should I believe that? (Christ sealed the church with The Holy Spirit)Do you have any proof? Other churches make the same claim too.

As long as you believe the false prophet who makes Christ and His Church into a lie, you have no reason to believe a thing.
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#258
Yassine
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@Mopac
Yassine, if your argument is to simply poo poo away the church as if Satan conquered it, and then disregard the scriptures of the church as being uninspired, I will say that you are not going to prop the Koran or your prophet up above the rubble.
- I feel like you haven't actually been reading anything I said, nor have you responded to the issues I raised. If you wish to debate or discuss the authenticity of the Quran or its content, by all means.


You have a very superficial understanding of church history. Studying church history is the reason I became an Orthodox Christian. There was a time I believed as you do, because protestantism needs to believe in the anarchy of the early church to justify its deviation from it. However, it is a false narrative. Holy orders have existed in the church since the beginning,  and those holy orders remain intact and valid only in The Orthodox Catholic Church. Textual criticism of the bible is a very controversial subject, even amongst protestants, and it is a protestant phenomena for sure.

I would also like to point out that modern atheistic secularism is largely the result of the protestants inheriting scholasticism from the Roman Catholics. Protestant churches struggle to resist the pressures of prevailing culture. You have churches with sermons filled with pop culture references, get rich theology, and even openly homosexual clergy. These people certainly aren't the guardians of the faith. They seem to believe that saying you believe in Jesus is a get out of hell free card, and that maybe they should be nice to people as long as it is easy and convenient. But good luck pinning anything down with protestants, because there are thousands and thousands of variations! They are united in their rejection of The True Church.
- I agree with almost everything you said here. Protestantism is one of least favorite things about Christianity, for the 'whimsical' nature of their beliefs. But, your claim of original authority is still unsupported. Instead of insisting that it is the case, you should start by providing proof of why it is the case. I brought many objections to your claim, which have yet to be answered. I have asked many questions, why can't you answer them?


God is not divided in parts. God is not made up of cells. Creation is of a distinct physis or nature than The Uncreated or divinity. 

It is a mystery, one that is in a way expressed in our Eucharist. 

How distant what you call God must be if don't truly see God as being everywhere present. How can anything truly be reality without the presence of Ultimate Reality? 
- You keep contradicting yourself. You say the creation is distinct from divinity, & then you say reality is the presence of the divine. Why does a contradiction have to be a mystery?! To answer your question, the entire creation itself is a manifestation of divine Attributes, it's a manifestation of divine Power, Design, Mercy, Bounty, Beauty... You yourself is a manifestation of God's Will & Bounty. You don't need a human -or otherwise- intermediary between you & the divine. 


As long as you believe the false prophet who makes Christ and His Church into a lie, you have no reason to believe a thing.
- Are you asking me to close my eyes & just believe with no proof? If have any doubts as to the prophethood of Muhammed (pbuh), we could remedy that as well. 
#259
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@Yassine
But, your claim of original authority is still unsupported. Instead of insisting that it is the case, you should start by providing proof of why it is the case. I brought many objections to your claim, which have yet to be answered. I have asked many questions, why can't you answer them?



- You keep contradicting yourself. You say the creation is distinct from divinity, & then you say reality is the presence of the divine. Why does a contradiction have to be a mystery?! To answer your question, the entire creation itself is a manifestation of divine Attributes, it's a manifestation of divine Power, Design, Mercy, Bounty, Beauty... You yourself is a manifestation of God's Will & Bounty. You don't need a human -or otherwise- intermediary between you & the divine
There is no contradiction. But your answer to my rhetorical question is not too far from what I am telling you. Being a manifestation of God's will, creation is united to God by this divine energy. We see this divine energy as being uncreated and one with God. 

But you are naive if you think there is no intermediary between yourself and the divine. Are you not a creature? All your observations, are they not creation? Your purest thoughts, are they still not creation? When it comes to the divine, at best, all you have is an image. That perfect image of God is The Jesus Christ who came down, The Christ you nor the one you call prophet knew, The Christ that it is written of..

"Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven."

#260
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@Yassine
Are you asking me to close my eyes & just believe with no proof?
That is what every religion demands. What proof do you have that your god exists or that gibreel exists? NONE. You are commanded by men to believe without proof.


#261
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@disgusted
The evidence is everywhere, open your eyes
#262
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@Dr.Franklin
You really need to stop posting these pathetic posts. OK bsh1. bwuhahahahahaha
#263
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@disgusted
The evidence is here
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@Dr.Franklin
Yassies god exist and gibreel exists according to everything you see around you. Unreal
#265
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@disgusted
God is real and loves you
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@Dr.Franklin
Mother Goose is real and loves me more.
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@disgusted
Mrs.CLaus likes me
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#268
Yassine
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@Mopac
- Yes, so you keep mentioning. Where is this unbroken chain? The Catholic Church had to change its narrative when it was found out that their claimed chain is fictitious, same for all the other claims. Please show me a verifiable unbroken chain from Jesus (pbuh) of your church.


There is no contradiction.
- There strictly is. Creator being distinct from creation means there is no part of creator in creation.


But your answer to my rhetorical question is not too far from what I am telling you. Being a manifestation of God's will, creation is united to God by this divine energy. We see this divine energy as being uncreated and one with God. 
- What is divine energy? Does this notion even exist in your Bible? 


But you are naive if you think there is no intermediary between yourself and the divine. Are you not a creature? All your observations, are they not creation? Your purest thoughts, are they still not creation? When it comes to the divine, at best, all you have is an image. That perfect image of God is The Jesus Christ who came down, The Christ you nor the one you call prophet knew, The Christ that it is written of..
- Jesus (pbuh) is a body, a body is a contingent being, it can not possibly be divine. That's like saying God is not-God. & yes, they are all creation of the Creator, He is inconceivable, "whatever image comes to your mind, God is not it". If you can perceive God, then he is not God anymore, for perception implies contingency & limitation. God can not be contingent or limited, for he is a necessary uncaused being.


"Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven."
- What are you quoting? This sounds a lot like what some Shia believe about their imam....

Topic's author
#269
Yassine
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@Dr.Franklin
Islam is not a religion of peace
- Why do you think so? Want to debate that?

#270
Dr.Franklin
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@Yassine
I am about to go on a full week vacation, I would rather not debate that now, but the majority of Muslims are mostly radical, 

Unlike nearly all of the Old Testament verses of violence, most verses of violence in the Quran are open-ended, meaning that they are not necessarily restrained by historical context contained in the surrounding text (although many Muslims choose to think of them that way). They are part of the eternal, unchanging word of Allah, and just as relevant or subject to interpretation as anything else in the Quran.

Quran (2:244) - "Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things."

Quran (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not." Not only does this verse establish that violence can be virtuous, but it also contradicts the myth that fighting is intended only in self-defense, since the audience was obviously not under attack at the time. From the Hadith, we know that this verse was narrated at a time that Muhammad was actually trying to motivate his people into raiding merchant caravans for loot.

Quran (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority". This speaks directly of polytheists, yet it also includes Christians, since they believe in the Trinity (ie. what Muhammad incorrectly believed to be 'joining companions to Allah').