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Author: Yassine

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@Dr.Franklin

Citation needed


Are you joking-
- No:
"the Crusaders systematically violated the city's holy sanctuaries, destroying or stealing all they could lay hands on; nothing was spared, not even the tombs of the emperors inside the St Apostles church. The civilian population of Constantinople were subject to the Crusaders' ruthless lust for spoils and glory; thousands of them were killed in cold blood. Women, including nuns, were raped by the Crusader army, which also sacked churches, monasteries and convents. The very altars of these churches were smashed and torn to pieces for their gold and marble by the warriors."


"Nothing will ever equal the horror of this harrowing and terrible spectacle."
An observer describes the scene:
"Nothing will ever equal the horror of this harrowing and terrible spectacle. People frightened by the shouting ran out of their houses and were cut down by the sword before they knew what was happening. And some were massacred in their houses where they tried to hide, and some in churches where they sought refuge.
- That's terrible, though much of it is ahistorical & also un-Islamic. Battle =/= massacre. The Turks & Romans were fighting for two months. The casualties among the Romans numbered 4,000 in total, including those who fell during the siege & the following executions, plus 30,000 POW. The casualties among the Turks were much much higher -among which 260 captured Turks during siege were executed by the Romans. The pillaging took place in the morning when the city fell in the midst of battle. It was not a systematic event. Once Mehmet II entered the city gates the afternoon, he was saddened by the sight he saw & put an end to it giving amnesty & safety to its people. He then reinstated the Eastern Church & gave Christians free reign, & appointed their leaders in his court. He also made the heirs of the deceased Roman Emperor state secretaries & generals.


I like to, but I have noting to defend
- The atrocities it purports? 
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@Yassine
Ok?

- No:
"the Crusaders systematically violated the city's holy sanctuaries, destroying or stealing all they could lay hands on; nothing was spared, not even the tombs of the emperors inside the St Apostles church. The civilian population of Constantinople were subject to the Crusaders' ruthless lust for spoils and glory; thousands of them were killed in cold blood. Women, including nuns, were raped by the Crusader army, which also sacked churches, monasteries and convents. The very altars of these churches were smashed and torn to pieces for their gold and marble by the warriors."


AHH, the peoples crusade, not the actual crusade

That's terrible, though much of it is ahistorical & also un-Islamic. Battle =/= massacre. The Turks & Romans were fighting for two months. The casualties among the Romans numbered 4,000 in total, including those who fell during the siege & the following executions, plus 30,000 POW. The casualties among the Turks were much much higher -among which 260 captured Turks during siege were executed by the Romans. The pillaging took place in the morning when the city fell in the midst of battle. It was not a systematic event. Once Mehmet II entered the city gates the afternoon, he was saddened by the sight he saw & put an end to it giving amnesty & safety to its people. He then reinstated the Eastern Church & gave Christians free reign, & appointed their leaders in his court. He also made the heirs of the deceased Roman Emperor state secretaries & generals.
It is terrible, your religion is terrible

The atrocities it purports? 
Would you like to name some
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@Yassine
Supply evidence that some "angel" lol ever spoke to Muhammad and why didn't gibreel know that muhammad was illiterate.
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@Dr.Franklin
The Crusaders did attack Orthodox Christians and sacked Constantinople(which likely even weakened the city to the Turks in the future), and though many words were spoken to disavow these action, it didn't stop them from stealing our relics and appointing Latin bishops as if they were Orthodox patriarchs.

The crusaders even in the Holy Land killed Christians, because hey, they all have beards, right?


The idea that the crusades were done with the intention of freeing Christians in the East from Muslim dominion was probably just an excuse to go to war.

Really, the ones who were getting ping ponged through all of this were Orthodox Christians. Despite what Yassine says, the church has never had fond memories of being under Muslim dominion. The church was actively supressed and meddlled with, and Christians felt as if they were treated as second class citizens.

I have heard opinions that many in the church were grateful that being under Muslim rule did in some way protect them from the Latin Church and western Europe. Taxes were also lower than they were under the Roman Empire. But proselytizing is a part of our faith, and not only were Christians forbidden from proselytizing and often times even repairing their churches, but a Muslim who converted to Christianity was seen as an apostate and they would be killed. This is not unlike how The Roman Empire treated the Jews around the time of Jesus. 

The Turks in particular meddlled alot with the church when they forced it into a judicial role. They spin it as giving more authority to the church, but it is  ontrary to how the chur h operates. They would often times meddle in the elections of Patriarchs, and they always had to approve them. They did not leave the church alone at all. In fact, they used to kidnap children of Christian families, castrate them, make them convert to Islam and fight in their armies. They like to spin this by saying that they held positions of honor, so they had it nice. 


But no amount of telling us that we really had it good is going to convince us, because this is our history, and it is still going on. It is not always safe to be a Christian in the Muslim world. 

But for the most part, we live side by side in peace. One of the main reasons is that we Orthodox take our faith very seriously, and Muslims tend to respect our piety. They don't really see this in protestants who seem to teach that Jesus is a get out of hell free card, do whatever you want , or Roman Catholics whose priests are suspiciously without beards.




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@Mopac
What crusade?
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@Dr.Franklin
4th crusade is when they sacked Constantinople.

The loot they brought back west helped spark the enlightenment. The Eastern Roman Empire didn't really go through a dark ages, it was a sophisticated society.
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@Mopac
Ok?, what's your point


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@Dr.Franklin
The Orthodox Church does not call crusades or Holy Wars. We do not believe in Holy wars. 

That said, there are many soldier saints, because war is a reality of life. Secular authorities do wage war, and Christians are still subject to secular authorities.




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@Mopac
No Christians do, it was 1200 get over it
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@Dr.Franklin
Heterodox Christians certainly do have "holy" wars as the history of western Europe shows.

It isn't really a matter of getting over it. The Roman Catholic Church hadn't been Orthodox for 200 years at that point. All of western Christendom descends from a heterodox church.

I don't hold any of this stuff against anybody. I still believe The Orthodox Cstholic Church is the Christian Church, and as such, everyone who calls themselves a Christian should get on board. Doesn't mean I hate or even dislike heterodox Christians. I have a lot of friends who are heterodox Christians.




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@Mopac
I can agree with that
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@Dr.Franklin

Ok?
- You asked...


AHH, the peoples crusade, not the actual crusade
- It's the Fourth Crusade. Unsurprisingly you are utterly clueless...


It is terrible, your religion is terrible
- Yet all 'evidence' you bring proves the opposite. Why don't we debate this?


Would you like to name some
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You asked...
?

It's the Fourth Crusade. Unsurprisingly you are utterly clueless...
Citation needed
Yet all 'evidence' you bring proves the opposite. Why don't we debate this?
No

Im not looking through those

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@Dr.Franklin

Citation needed
- Check previous posts...


No
- You are scared of debating?

- Concession then.

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@Yassine
This is going nowhere, agree to disagree
Yassine
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@Dr.Franklin
This is going nowhere, agree to disagree
- But it is, & it ended with your concession. Now, how about that debate though? You seem to have a lot of things to say about Islam & the Quran.

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@Yassine
Nah, I don't want to debate, I prefer forum talk, anyway it also ended with you giving no evidence
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@Dr.Franklin
Nah, I don't want to debate, I prefer forum talk, anyway it also ended with you giving no evidence
- Dude, burying your head in the sand pretending all the evidence I provided doesn't exist does not actually make it so...

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@Yassine
Citation needed
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@Dr.Franklin
Citation needed
- Exactly! Mr. Ostrich burying his head in the sand.

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@Yassine
Very rude :(
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@Dr.Franklin
Very rude :(
- It's an expression... You make a lot of claims & deny proofs when presented to you, so where your evidence though?

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@Yassine
Evidence of what?
Yassine
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@Dr.Franklin
Evidence of what?
- All the claims & denials you keep making.

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@Yassine
All the claims & denials you keep making.


Give me one claim that I denied something,please
Yassine
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@Dr.Franklin
Give me one claim that I denied something,please
- Everything I mentioned & refuted you deny without evidence.

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@Yassine
Give me one