A classic: From creator god ==> Specific God

Author: ludofl3x

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Harikrish
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First, do you believe it reasonable to believe Jesus wrote about in the NT was a historical person?


Christianity has reduced its core beliefs to worshipping a dead Jewish corpse named Jesus who died for their sins 2000 years ago. The creation and evolution theories are immaterial to Christians because the path to salvation is not how we got here but who can get us out of the mess we are in. So while scientists argue, the dead Jewish corpse remains the only viable solution.

Harikrish biblical scholar and spiritual leader.


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@Harikrish
Christianity has reduced its core beliefs to worshipping a dead Jewish corpse named Jesus who died for their sins 2000 years ago. The creation and evolution theories are immaterial to Christians because the path to salvation is not how we got here but who can get us out of the mess we are in. So while scientists argue, the dead Jewish corpse remains the only viable solution.
Well stated.
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@ludofl3x
This is not any attempt to demonstrate intent. Saying a rock lacks intention is something I agree with you on, then describing your take on evolution and the big bang is just dodging the question. Can you or can you not DEMONSTRATE INTENT in the universe as it is? If the answer is no, just say no.
Well stated.
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Precisely my point. You don't know but you exclude the biblical God as making sense of it. How do you know?
The "YHWH" doesn't explain anything.  You're a meaningless worm doomed to eternal hell-fire UNLESS you follow Levitical law.

I'm not sure how you imagine that particular belief makes your life any more "meaningful".
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I'm just pointing out that every worldview tries to make sense of existence but only one can
99.99% of worldviews don't give a fat rats arse about existence.

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No, I ask how you derive existence from an unintentional and purposeless happenstance and how you make sense of it.
You're asking how does the hole fit the puddle so perfectly and you answer "by magic".

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Your god's morality is dependent on the time and culture in which it is practiced. Certainly not the never changing basis that you claim.

12 days later

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@ludofl3x
.......New WORLD News.........every since the elimination of the Abrahamic GODS to Comic Book Mythology in 2022 the Middle East has had 
an unprecedented surge in new infrastructure and cooperation among the up and coming generations....never before has there been such
unity and harmony among the people of this region where some of earliest and advanced cultures flourished 6 - 8 thousand years ago...

More excitement is building as researchers are discovering more and more amazing artifacts and information on these amazing ancient 
civilizations...

As the older generations DIE off and take their horrifically OBSOLETE and OPPRESSIVE Comic Book GODS and DOGMA
to the grave with them... a revitalization of the region has occurred in place of the CONFLICT - FEAR - VIOLENCE....which
dominated the region for 5000 years...

These are truly EPIC TIMES as all of HUMANITY has trashed the Abrahamic GOD construct for POWER and CONTROL of the MINDS 
and LIVES of BILLIONS....now that humanity is FREE from the parasite VAMPIRE bondage founded by the defunct Roman Catholic Church
and the MUSLIM Allah God garbage....it's like a perpetual spring time all over the planet...

Live WELL - LONG and PROSPER is the new MANTRA of humanity....a true breath of fresh air now that the HELL on EARTH Abrahamic
JEW - JESUS - ALLAH GOD are meaningless Mythology and Comic Books for entertainment only...

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I'm not sure why this is @ me. PLEASE keep your trademarked UNHINGED and almost always IRRELEVANT AND SENSELESS screeds about GODS and COMIC BOOKS off my topics. OTHERWISE you run the risk of DERAILING what has POTENTIAL to be good CONVERSATION, and you will NEVER be taken SERIOUSLY BY ANYONE. 
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@Harikrish
We certainly do not worship a dead Jewish corpse. That would be silly. 

We worship God, the Ultimate Reality, who through the incarnation filled all things, deifying the universe, becoming death in order that death be conquered and life eternal be realized unto all who abide in His Word.

To the glory of The Father, Son, Holy Spirit who is blessed forever and unto ages of ages amen.



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@ludofl3x
Intentionality is only possible with conscious being. The biblical God is revealed as such a Being. A rock lacks intention. It can't plan or purpose anything. It has no agency to do so. With evolution, there is no intent for anything to survive. It just happens. We deem those who do survive and pass on their genes the strong and fit yet it is not the purpose of evolution for this to happen. The Big Bang did not have the intent to bring the universe into existence. With a materialistic worldview, the universe just happened. There is no intent to sustain itself. It just happens. Go figure?


This is not any attempt to demonstrate intent.
What is "intent"? 


Definition of intent

 (Entry 1 of 2)

1a: the act or fact of intending : PURPOSE especially : the design or purpose to commit a wrongful or criminal act admitted wounding him with intent
b: the state of mind with which an act is done : VOLITION
2: a usually clearly formulated or planned intention : AIMthe director's intent
3a: MEANING, SIGNIFICANCE
b: CONNOTATION sense 3

intent

 adjective

Definition of intent (Entry 2 of 2)

1: directed with strained or eager attention : CONCENTRATED
2: having the mind, attention, or will concentrated on something or some end or purpose


So, to demonstrate intent you would have to demonstrate conscious intelligent being. That is what a personal Creator demonstrates. Blind indifferent unintelligent chance processes do not. You could also demonstrate the likelihood of purpose as opposed to chance is showing what appears to be purposeful. 


Saying a rock lacks intention is something I agree with you on, then describing your take on evolution and the big bang is just dodging the question.

No, it is not. 


The question for both origins and evolution is how (there is no "why" to it in a universe devoid of an intentional being creating it) a random chance, a blind process without intent can cause sustainability and uniformity? Since evolution and a chance universe (a materialistic or humanistic worldview that does not look to God/gods) is not my worldview I will expect you to answer this how question. I believe your answer will plead ignorance.   


Can you or can you not DEMONSTRATE INTENT in the universe as it is? You can identify it in humanity but where and how did it come to be? It involves the arrival of consciousness. How does the conscious come from that devoid of it?

Again, what is necessary for intent - a necessary intelligent Being. I point to God creating the universe to be inhabited by humans, who are made in His image and likeness (thus intentional and an explanation of intent). His intent or purpose is that we have volition and that we may know Him and have a loving relationship with Him. So, His intent and purpose are that we also are intentional and purposeful.


Psalm 19:1
[ The Works and the Word of God. ] [ For the choir director. A Psalm of David. ] The heavens are telling of the glory of God; And their expanse is declaring the work of His hands.

The universe declares knowledge, information, intent, purpose. 


Psalm 8:4
What is man that You take thought of him, And the son of man that You care for him?


From a Christian perspective, the universe does show design and this world does show that it was made for us, thus God was mindful of us (intent). 


If the answer is no, just say no. Demonstrating intent would look like "I know the universe is built specifically to accomplish [THIS PURPOSE], because [EVIDENCE]." If the answer is you don't know what it's built to accomplish, then I have to wonder how you come by INTENT honestly.
See above. 
I have given you the answer. An intelligent Being (Creator) would demonstrate intent and purpose and we continue to see these signs in our universe. 

I've asked this of you before and you never answered: what is the INTENT of crashing the Andromeda Galaxy in the Milky Way in hundreds of millions of years?

Again, from what we as humans know it seems to be the case so I can say that I don't know other than to display the glory and majesty of God by what He has made, thus we are in awe of the universe and are aware of this possible crash. 


It's going to happen, mathematically. We won't be here to see it happen (I mean humans).

Again, your presupposition, not mine, based on the information currently available by the human finite mind.

What's the intent of the design then?

The design was marred by sin which brought the judgment and the flaw. God put decay, death and destruction into the big picture and separated humanity from Himself so that they would not physically live forever. He barred them from the tree of life as a consequence of sin and set about the world of relativism when humanity became the authority instead of God. 

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@ludofl3x

What makes more sense: that it was designed to happen, to rip two galaxies consisting of hundreds of billions of stars and planets to shreds by smashing them together, when no human will ever be around to see it...or that it's just going to happen regardless because that's how gravity, momentum and a bunch of other invisible equations work?

It makes sense that if it was designed to happen for some reason the Designer knows the reason and has provided for this in His purpose.

What makes more sense, that mindless, chance happenstance caused laws and principles we discover, (such as the LAW of gravity that you mentioned), to explains this randomness or that there is a mind behind it?

The answer: A mind behind it, of course. There is no sense without a Mind behind it. S _ _ t happens for no reason if there is no intent or purpose. But that is not what you see. You derive and witness purpose in everything or else you would not be able to describe the hows and whys, it would be random and science would not be possible. 



"Laws" generally speaking, have a lawgiver yet it is assumed (and presupposed) by most materialists and naturalists that there is no lawgiver behind these natural laws.

What does it actually demonstrate regarding how these laws came to be? It is presupposed then the naturalistic worldview builds its premises to fit. The abnomities as pushed aside.

It demonstrates to us that a Mind is more reasonable to believe in the formation of laws than blind chance happenstance since there is no reason behind an unintentional process (just fluke) and no reason that anything would be sustained since there is no purpose for its being sustained.

Why would a mindless process be sustainable and why do we have this uniformity in nature? Make sense of why mindless processes sustain anything. Again, you assume they can. 
I'm not going to explain what presupposition is, again.
Again, every worldview presupposes its core beliefs and builds from those beliefs. 

Again, your worldview does not have an answer to make sense so it excuses the question.

Your ridiculous 'et tu quoque" aside, starting at a neutral position is NOT the same as presupposing a magic being.

You ASSUME any position is neutral. It is not. Your position or a naturalistic one is magical in itself. Nothing created something and sustains something for no reason. 

My argument makes every attempt to deal with the issues of origins, existence, and morality by comparing and contrasting what one finds with both Creator versus chance.  


There is no neutral position. Either the universe is here by materialistic, natural causes or it has a supernatural Creator. 


Magic being? I do not see God in this manner and the Bible does not reveal Him in this manner. 


I don't know why the universe's laws sustain as they do. I just know they do, otherwise we woudln't be here.


Precisely my point - you don't know yet you reject God as a reasonable explanation and you reject any reasonable explanation because blind indifferent chance processes (fluke random chance happenings) lacks reason. 


You have not 'made sense' of their sustaining, either. I still don't know what "make sense of" means, and I think you don't either. You're not making sense of it. You're assigning an unseen, undemonstrable cause. I've even asked you to demonstrate what you think 'making sense' of it means. You don't.

I can make sense of it - an intentional Being sustains it by His will.


Colossians 1:17 
He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. 


I look at the unlikelihood of the contrary (many would say the impossibility of the contrary, but I'm watering it down so you don't flip out). My worldview is a reasonable deduction. You would have to start with the same presupposition of what is the most reasonable, and there is no reasonableness there with your worldview foundations.

Ladies and gentlemen, I present the classic argument from personal incredulity. 

Which applies to your argument just as easily. You don't know nor can you offer a logical defence of your worldview yet you pontificate how things must have been via a process devoid of intelligence, being solely random chance happenstance  (i.e., "I don't know why the universe's laws sustain as they do. I just know they do, otherwise we wouldn't be here."). Your view of things cannot make sense of itself. This has been my claim all along, yet you cling to this irrationality with incredulity.






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@ludofl3x
Again, it was a teaching of the Mosaic Covenant and it was used by God to teach ancient Israel (who lived in a different culture and times) some important truths that God is holy and they should be true in their relationship to Him. He demonstrates sin has consequences.

So then the moral code prescribed in the bible is NOT unchanging. It applies differently across time. TOday, for example, it's not okay to stone someone. Back then, you think it was okay. Or at least you'd have said it was moral.

Basic principles of it are, such as are found in the Ten Commandments like do not kill, steal, lie, commit adultery, covet, dishonour mother and father, and commands such as Love God and put Him first, love your neighbour. These principles are found in both testaments. Jesus summed up the law of God in two commands - love God as the first and most excellent command and the second, love your neighbour. The Old Covenant (the 613 Mosaic Commands) was a covenant made with Israel as it related to ANE culture. Jesus came to fulfill the Law of Moses, in fact, the whole law and commands of God.

Why was a woman stoned to death? It was for unfaithfulness and sexual promiscuity.
But the penalty WAS okay then. Not okay now. Right?

Different times and different cultures but the question is why were they stoning the woman to death? It was for sexual immorality. That principle has not changed. God still tells us it is a sin. The method of dealing with adultery changed.

Again, this is a change in the moral code: we see it as immoral today to stone a woman who sleeps with someone out of wedlock to death today. Are you saying WE'RE IN THE WRONG NOW and these women should be stoned?

The moral code never changed in that sexual immorality and adultery was never right, either in the OT or NT. The difference is how God dealt with the sin. The punishment changed with the change in covenants. Jesus said,

Matthew 5:17-18 (NASB)
17 “Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18 For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

Where do you see the requirements of the Law of Moses/Mosaic Law in effect after AD 70??? You don't. The Mosaic Covenant was abolished.

The Book of Hebrews, evidently written before AD 70 had this to say:

Hebrews 8:13 (NASB)
13 When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.

The covenant that was ready to disappear when the author of Hebrews wrote (many believe the author was Paul based on similarities of writing style, although knowing who the author is was not deemed essential) was the Old Covenant/Mosaic Covenant. The author continual compares what is, the Mosaic Covenant or the OT covenant system and economy with Christ and with what was shortly to come.  There was a transition in covenants taking place between AD 30 and AD 70. God gave that generation 40 years to repent before He abolished that OT covenant Hebrews 3-4).



The penalty of sin is death by whatever means decreed. We all die physically. Israel was a theocracy. They lived under God's rules that He purposed for the culture they lived in. They are also an example and instruction to us regarding His holiness and presence.

Yes or no: is it ever okay to kill another person according to the ten commandments. "For the culture they lived in" once AGAIN undermines your contention that the biblical moral code is good for all time, all people, all culture.

Killing an innocent person (i.e., murder) - no, never okay. Thus, the biblical command or mandate states it is never okay to kill (murder, or intentionally and maliciously kill) an innocent person. That law has never changed for humanity.

They are both sinful but taking God's name in vain, IMO, is showing much more disrespect for your Maker since the first command is to worship God and serve only Him. Loving God and following His commands (in a perfect world) would not result in rape or any other sin. 

You really think raping someone is a morally superior act to saying "god damn you" to the person who raped you?? Raping an ACTUAL PERSON? I want to give you a chance to retract this inanity. PLEASE rethink your stance here. It's ludicrous.

Raping someone is never condoned by God but condemned by Him. Where do you keep getting the idea that it is okay or morally superior to cursing God's name? They are both wrong but the one stems from the other. Once you lessen the value of God you lessen the value of others for every human being is created in the image and likeness of God. That is why Jesus said that loving God is the first and most important commandment and all others flow from it. If you love God how could you rape someone created in the image and likeness of God since God forbids it for moral and righteous reasons?

Not in God's sight. Again, you misunderstand ANE culture and the biblical standard. What Israel did and what God commanded are not always the same.

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@ludofl3x

Have you read the book of NUmbers? 31:18: "Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves."

Do you understand ANE cultures in reference to Numbers 31:18? No, you don't. You assume they were used for sexually immoral purposes. Glenn Miller, among others, has written extensively on this subject as per his website:

"Secondly, the accusation that these girls were for “sex slave” purposes contradicts what we know about the culture and about the event. [But at least one of the writers above--to their credit--added the word ‘presumably’, realizing that the text doesn’t actually say anything about it…]



1. Most girls were married soon/immediately after they began menstruating in the ANE (circa 12 years of age), and since infant and child mortality was so high, the average age of the girls spared would have been around 5 years of age or slightly lower (life expectancy wasn’t a straight line, with childhood risks so high). Of all the horrible things ascribed to Israel in the OT, pedophilia is the one conspicuous omission. That these little kids would have been even considered as ‘sex slaves’ seems quite incongruent with their ages.



And, at this tender age, they would not have been very useful as ‘slaves’ at all! Children raised in Israelite households were ‘put to work’ around this age, sometimes doing light chores to help the mother for up to four hours per day by the age of 7 or 8 [OT:FAI:27], but 5 is still a bit young. Instead, the Israelite families would have had to feed, clothe, train, care, protect, and shelter them for several years before they could make much contribution to the family’s existence and survival. [Also note that ‘slavery’ in the ANE/OT generally means something quite different from “New World” slavery, which we normally associate with the world ‘slavery’, and most of what is called that in popular literature should not be so termed. See qnoslave.html for the discussion and documentation.]





2. Unlike the Greeks and Romans, the ANE was not very ‘into’ using slaves/captives for sexual purposes, even though scholars earlier taught this:



“During the pinnacle of Sumerian culture, female slaves outnumbered male. Their owners used them primarily for spinning and weaving. Saggs maintains that their owners also used them for sex, but there is little actual evidence to support such a claim” [OT:EML:69]



3. And the Hebrews were different in this regard ANYWAY:



“This fidelity and exclusivity [demands on the wife] did not apply to the husband. Except among the Hebrews, where a husband’s infidelity was disparaged in the centuries after 800 BC, a double standard prevailed, and husbands were routinely expected to have sex not only with their wives, but with slavewomen and prostitutes.” [WS:AHTO:39; note: I would disagree with the remark about ‘after 800 bc’ because that dating presupposes a very late date for the composition of the narratives under discussion…If the narrative events occurred closer to the purposed times, then this ‘disparagement’ applied earlier in Israel as well as later.]



4. Even if we allow the age range to be older, to include girls capable of bearing children, the probability is that it was not sex-motivated, but population/economics-motivated, as Carol Meyers points out [“The Roots of Restriction: Women in Early Israel”, Biblical Archaeologist, vol 41):



“Beyond this, however, the intensified need for female participation in working out the Mosaic revolution in the early Israelite period can be seen in the Bible. Looking again at Numbers 31, an exception to the total purge of the Midianite population is to be noted. In addition to the metal objects which were exempt from utter destruction, so too were the “young girls who have not known man by lying with him” (Num 31:18). These captives, however, were not immediately brought into the Israelite camp. Instead, they and their captors were kept outside the camp for seven days in a kind of quarantine period. (Note that the usual incubation period for the kinds of infectious diseases which could conceivably have existed in this situation is two or three to six days [Eickhoff 1977].) Afterward, they thoroughly washed themselves and all their clothing before they entered the camp. This incident is hardly an expression of lascivious male behavior; rather, it reflects the desperate need for women of childbearing age, a need so extreme that the utter destruction of the Midianite foes—and the prevention of death by plague—as required by the law of the herem could be waived in the interest of sparing the young women. The Israelites weighed the life-death balance, and the need for females of childbearing age took precedence.”



[But note that the traditional rabbinic interpretation of the passage is that all females which were capable of bearing children were killed—not just those who actually were non-virginal. This would drive the average age quite low, although the Hebrew text offers only limited support at best for their interpretation.]



[I should also point out that the “for yourselves” phrase (31.18) is NOT actually referring to “for your pleasure”, but is a reference to the opposite condition of  “for YHWH” which applied to all people or property which was theoretically supposed to be destroyed in such combat situations. The herem (or ‘ban’) specifically indicated that all enemy people or property which was ‘delivered over to YHWH’ was to be killed/destroyed. By referring to ‘for yourselves’, then, in this passage, means simply ‘do not kill them’. This can also be seen in that this ‘booty’ was not ‘for themselves’ actually, but was distributed to others within the community.]"




***


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@ludofl3x
How about Exodus 21:17? "And if a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as the menservants do."

I think you need to educate yourself in the differences between biblical slavery or servanthood and what we witness in Rome, Egypt, or Greece or in the South in our era. You and others on this site continue to show an ignorance of the times and what they term slavery as opposed to what we term slavery. The kind of slavery or servitude God condomes Israel practice is different from the slavery practiced by Egypt or Rome or the Southern US in our day. Please understand the difference as I ask you to understand the difference between the meaning of Numbers 31:15 and what you are insinuating it to be.

Again, Glenn Miller on ANE slavery as opposed to what we associate with it today:

"Scholars in the ANE have often abandoned the use of the general term 'slavery' in descriptions of the many diverse forms of master-servant that are manifest in the ancient world. There are very few 'true' slave societies in the world (with Rome and Greek being two of the major ones!), and ancient Israel will be seen to be outside this classification as well (in legislation, not practice)...

Scholars in Cultural Anthropology are sensitive to this as well, and point out that New World slavery was quite unique, historically:

"Scholars do not agree on a definition of "slavery." The term has been used at various times for a wide range of institutions, including plantation slavery, forced labor, the drudgery of factories and sweatshops, child labor, semivoluntary prostitution, bride-price marriage, child adoption for payment, and paid-for surrogate motherhood. Somewhere within this range, the literal meaning of "slavery" shifts into metaphorical meaning, but it is not entirely clear at what point. A similar problem arises when we look at other cultures. The reason is that the term "Slavery" is evocative rather than analytical, calling to mind a loose bundle of diagnostic features. These features are mainly derived from the most recent direct Western experience with slavery, that of the southern United States, the Caribbean, and Latin America. The present Western image of slavery has been haphazardly constructed out of the representations of that experience in nineteenth-century abolitionist literature, and later novels, textbooks, and films...From a global cross-cultural and historical perspective, however, New World slavery was a unique conjunction of features...In brief, most varieties of slavery did not exhibit the three elements that were dominant in the New World: slaves as property and commodities; their use exclusively as labor; and their lack of freedom..." [NS:ECA:4:1190f]

Generally, in the ANE, these 'fuzzy' boundaries obtain as well. "Slavery" is a very relative word in our time period, and we have to be very carefully in no auto-associating it with more 'vivid' New World examples. For example, in the West we would never say that the American President's Cabinet members were his 'slaves', but this term would have been applied to them in the ANE kingdoms. And, in the ANE, even though children/family could be bought and sold, they were never actually referred to as 'slaves'--the property aspect (for such transactions) did NOT define explicitly the notion of 'slavery':

"Freedom in the ancient Near East was a relative, not an absolute state, as the ambiguity of the term for "slave" in all the region's languages illustrates. "Slave" could be used to refer to a subordinate in the social ladder. Thus the subjects of a king were called his "slaves," even though they were free citizens. The king himself, if a vassal, was the "slave" of his emperor; kings, emperors, and commoners alike were "slaves" of the gods. Even a social inferior, when addressing a social superior, referred to himself out of politeness as "your slave." There were, moreover, a plethora of servile conditions that were not regarded as slavery, such as son, daughter, wife, serf, or human pledge."

Miller goes on to list a number of contrasts with what we call slavery and what the ANE use of the term means. You confuse today's standards as practiced in the US south or slave trade today with ANE standards for the most part.

As an employee, you are a servant or slave to your employer in that you have sold yourself to an owner or employer to do specific work for a period of time every day. Thus, you are obligated to perform what the owner or employer requires of you. It was similar to the father selling of the daughter to meet the debt load in the ANE...

Miller:

I want to set out the basic elements associated with historical slavery, as practiced in America before the American Civil War, and to offer some general contrasts with ANE slavery (I will look at OT slavery later in the article). (This is not meant to be exhaustive, but simply to highlight the aspects of the institution that strike our sensibilities today.)


        Motive: Slavery was motivated by the economic advantage of the elite.

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@ludofl3x

So, [NS:ECA:4:1190] point this out: "New World slavery was a unique conjuntion of features. Its use of slaves was strikingly specialized as unfree labor-producing commodities, such as cotton and sugar, for a world market." and Britannica: "By 1850 nearly two-thirds of the plantation slaves were engaged in the production of cotton...the South was totally transformed by the presences of slavery. Slavery generated profits comparable to those from other investments and was only ended as a consequence of the War Between the States." (s.v. "Slavery")

In the ANE (and OT), this was NOT the case. The dominant (statistically) motivation was economic relief of poverty (i.e., 'slavery' was initiated by the slave--NOT by the owner--and the primary uses were purely domestic (except in cases of State slavery, where individuals were used for building projects).

The definitive work on ANE law today is the 2 volume work [HI:HANEL] (History of Ancient Near Eastern Law). This work (by 22 scholars) surveys every legal document from the ANE (by period) and includes sections on slavery. A smattering of quotes will indicate this for-the-poor instead of for-the-rich purpose for most of ANE slavery:


§         "Most slaves owned by Assyrians in Assur and in Anatolia seem to have been (originally) debt slaves--free persons sold into slavery by a parent, a husband, an elder sister, or by themselves." (1.449)

§         "Sales of wives, children, relatives, or oneself, due to financial duress, are a recurrent feature of the Nuzi socio-economic scene…A somewhat different case is that of male and female foreigners, called hapiru (immigrants) who gave themselves in slavery to private individuals or the palace administration. Poverty was the cause of these agreements…" (1.585)

§         "Most of the recorded cases of entry of free persons into slavery [in Emar] are by reason of debt or famine or both…A common practice was for a financier to pay off the various creditors in return for the debtor becoming his slave." (1.664f)

§         "On the other hand, mention is made of free people who are sold into slavery as a result of the famine conditions and the critical economic situation of the populations [Canaan]. Sons and daughters are sold for provisions…" (1.741)

§         "The most frequently mentioned method of enslavement [Neo-Sumerian, UR III] was sale of children by their parents. Most are women, evidently widows, selling a daughter; in one instance a mother and grandmother sell a boy…There are also examples of self sale. All these case clearly arose from poverty; it is not stated, however, whether debt was specifically at issue." (1.199)

·        Entry: Slavery was overwhelmingly involuntary. Humans were captured by force and sold via slave-traders.

This was true both for the Islamic slave trade and the European trade. So, Britannica:

"Slaves have been owned in black Africa throughout recorded history. In many areas there were large-scale slave societies, while in others there were slave-owning societies. Slavery was practiced everywhere even before the rise of Islam, and black slaves exported from Africa were widely traded throughout the Islamic world. Approximately 18,000,000 Africans were delivered into the Islamic trans-Saharan and Indian Ocean slave trades between 650 and 1905. In the second half of the 15th century Europeans began to trade along the west coast of Africa, and by 1867 between 7,000,000 and 10,000,000 Africans had been shipped as slaves to the New World.... The relationship between African and New World slavery was highly complementary. African slave owners demanded primarily women and children for labour and lineage incorporation and tended to kill males because they were troublesome and likely to flee. The transatlantic trade, on the other hand, demanded primarily adult males for labour and thus saved from certain death many adult males who otherwise would have been slaughtered outright by their African captors."


In the ANE (and especially the OT), the opposite was the case. This should be obvious from the MOTIVE aspect--these were choices by the impoverished to enter this dependency state, in return for economic security and protection. Some slavery contracts actually emphasized this voluntary aspect!:

"A person would either enter into slavery or be sold by a parent or relative. Persons sold their wives, grandchildren, brother (with his wife and child), sister, sister-in-law, daughter-in-law, nephews and niece…Many of the documents emphasize that the transaction is voluntary. This applies not only to self-sale but also to those who are the object of sale, although their consent must sometimes have been fictional, as in the case of a nursing infant." [HI:HANEL:1.665]


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@ludofl3x
This might also be seen from the fact that war/violence was NOT a major source of 'real' slaves in the ANE (nor OT). For example, even though there were large numbers of war-captives in the ANE, they were generally NOT turned into slaves, but rather into tenant-farming, serfs:

"Within all the periods of antiquity, Egyptian, Mesopotamian, Hittite, Persian, and other Oriental rulers carried away great masses of captives from their victorious battles. But only an insignificant part of them was turned into slaves; all the others were settled on the land as palace and temple serfs….The question arises, why the masses of war prisoners were not enslaved. Slavery was the optimal form of dependence, and very often there was no shortage of prisoners captured in war. Besides, there were no legal or ethical norms preventing these prisoners from being turned into slaves. But this happened in a negligible percentage of cases, while the overwhelming majority were settled in places specially set aside for them, paid royal taxes, and carried out obligations, including military service." [ABD: s.v. "Slavery, ANE"]

"War is only mentioned as a source of slavery for public institutions. The most frequently mentioned method of enslavement was sale of children by their parents. Most are women, evidently widows, selling a daughter; in one instance a mother and  grandmother sell a boy…There are also examples of self sale." [HI:HANEL:1.199]

The same, of course, can be said of Israel. For example, even in wars on foreign soil (e.g., Deut 20.10,10), if a city surrendered, it became a vassal state to Israel, with the population becoming serfs (mas), not slaves (ebed, amah). They would have performed what is called 'corvee' (draft-type, special labor projects, and often on a rotation basis--as Israelites later did as masim under Solomon, 1 Kings 5.27). This was analogous to ANE praxis, in which war captives were not enslaved, but converted into vassal groups:

"The nations subjected by the Israelites were considered slaves. They were, however, not slaves in the proper meaning of the term, although they were obliged to pay royal taxes and perform public works." [ABD, s.v. "Slavery, Old Testament"]

And since most slavery was done through self-sale or family-sale, it was likewise voluntary (at least as voluntary as poverty allows), cf. Lev 25.44 in which the verbs are of 'acquisition' and not 'take' or 'conquer' etc.


·        Treatment : Slaves were frequently mistreated by modern standards, and punishments were extreme.

The images we have of the Old American South are filled with mistreatments, and we need no documentation of that here. The ANE, on the other hand, was much less severe, due largely to the differences in the attitudes of the 'master' to the 'slave'. Slavery in the ANE was much more an 'in-house' and 'in-family' thing, with closer emotional attachment. However, there were still some extreme punishments in the ANE, but the biblical witness is of a decidedly better environment for slaves than even the ANE. Exodus 21, for example, is considered by many to be unparalleled in respect to humanitarianism toward slaves, and we shall return to this in detail below. [Suffice it to mention here that Ex 21.21 restricts the treatment of the slave to be no more severe than what the community/elders could do with a regular, free citizen. This restriction on an owner should make one ponder what in the world the word 'property' might mean in such a context! But more on this in a minute…]

But in the ANE slaves were generally protected from over-abuse (under normal conditions, runaways were a problem, as we shall see):

"[Slaves were generally afforded protection from] Excessive Physical punishment. Even chattel slaves appear to have benefited to some extent from this protection" [HI:HANEL:1:43]

And all the records of the period seem to indicate humane treatment:

"First, let us set apart the slaves--the booty of war or in servitude for various reasons--who by definition were totally dependent on their masters, although the latter appear to have treated them fairly humanely, and more like domestic servants." [HI:ELAM, 114]


·        Treatment : As a matter of course, slaves lived in radical separation from their owners and did not participate in many of the 'benefits' of the owners' fortunes.

We have already noted that in New World slavery at least two-thirds of plantation slaves would have lived in barracks (field-slaves), and not in intimacy with owners (domestics), whereas in the ANE/OT, the vast majority of the slaves were domestics under the same roof. In the ANE/OT, we don’t have the 'gangs' of agricultural workers we will see later in Republican Rome and in the New World:

"Moreover, in general there were probably only a few in each household [in Israel]--there is no indication, for example, that large gangs of them were toiling in deplorable conditions to cultivate big estates, as in the later Roman world" [OT:I:101]

"Both types (Hebrew, foreign slaves) were domestic slaves living in their owners' homes, not members of slave gangs working on plantations." [Notes, Jewish Study Bible, Ex 21]






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Your god's morality is dependent on the time and culture in which it is practiced. Certainly not the never changing basis that you claim.

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@disgusted
Your god's morality is dependent on the time and culture in which it is practiced. Certainly not the never changing basis that you claim.
You're wrong. The principles behind the Mosaic Laws are the same that apply to Christian teachings, and as I pointed out in one of my last three posts,  they revolve around the love of God and the love of humans which is a summary of The Ten Commandments (Exodus. Love does not kill (i.e., murder), it does not slander, lie, steal, covet things that belong to others, disrespect, etc. These same principles are taught in both testaments and can be demonstrated to those who do not see this (which would be you). 

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@3RU7AL
Precisely my point. You don't know but you exclude the biblical God as making sense of it. How do you know?
The "YHWH" doesn't explain anything. 
Sure He does. Whether you like it or not the biblical reason is logical. Life comes from the eternal LIVING God, mind and conscious comes from such a necessary Mind and consciousness. Islam has a lot of the teachings about God in its teachings too, but we as Christians believe it does not worship God as He truly is. They claim the same about our beliefs, but our belief predates Islam.

You're a meaningless worm doomed to eternal hell-fire UNLESS you follow Levitical law.
The Mosaic law was just a shadow of what was coming. It pointed to something (or to be more precise Someone) far greater, thus it was just temporary and designed to teach and lead us to the greater reality, which is Jesus Christ. He is revealed on every page of the OT for those who are discerning and can see the teaching. I have laid out the spiritual truths in as much as I understand them on many occasions. These shadows and types of Jesus Christ are laid out time and time again in the NT (Matthew 4:16, Luke 24:26-27; 44-45Colossians 2:17Hebrews 8:5Hebrews 10:1, 1 Corinthians 2:10-162 Corinthians 3, especially verses 15-18, Hebrews 3-4, and on and on it goes and can be demonstrated. 




I'm not sure how you imagine that particular belief makes your life any more "meaningful".


How? You are not a biological bag of atoms and chemical reactions, a freak of hopelessness in a meaningless universe making up all kinds of morals and values that in the long run mean nothing. There is a purpose there for those who find it by the grace of God. There is a love awaiting those that surpass our finite understanding of this mortal and physical life.

A life apart from God lacks this meaning and purpose and derives its own short-lived purpose.
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@Harikrish
First, do you believe it reasonable to believe Jesus wrote about in the NT was a historical person?


Christianity has reduced its core beliefs to worshipping a dead Jewish corpse named Jesus who died for their sins 2000 years ago. The creation and evolution theories are immaterial to Christians because the path to salvation is not how we got here but who can get us out of the mess we are in. So while scientists argue, the dead Jewish corpse remains the only viable solution.

Harikrish biblical scholar and spiritual leader.
Harikrish, you are clueless because to date you have rejected the Chief Corner-stone while building an elaborate house of cards. 
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Have you read the book of NUmbers? 31:18: "Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves."
It doesn't matter what they were "used for" or even how they were treated.

If any modern day military killed every man, woman, child, and baby of a nation, but only spared the young girls, they would be considered monsters.
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Have you read the book of NUmbers? 31:18: "Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves."
There are no comments in this post from me, including the underlined. 

It doesn't matter what they were "used for" or even how they were treated.
Do you think these virgins would survive harsh treatment from other cultures in the ANE unless Israel protected them?

The men, on the other hand, were a threat to the survival of Israel. 

I think the women were a threat in influencing the nation by seduction and because of their bitterness and sorrow for the death of their husbands and sons. 


If any modern day military killed every man, woman, child, and baby of a nation, but only spared the young girls, they would be considered monsters.

You are applying modern situations to an ancient culture. We don't live in similar times. 

These young girls would eventually be absorbed into the culture of Israel and increase the population of Israel, but they would not be forced into a marriage they were against or raped. That was not the intent of the decree even if some strayed by their practice.

Do you think these young girls would present the same threat that a woman or man or a young boy who grows up that opposed Israel would?

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I'm just pointing out that every worldview tries to make sense of existence but only one can
99.99% of worldviews don't give a fat rats arse about existence.
Do you not care about whether you live or die?
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I haven't seen this one here, and this place could use a couple of new topics. Unfortunately it seems like there are less theists here than atheists, so I'm not sure about the traffic this place will get. Here we go:

Let's say we take for granted that the universe is here as it is not because of any natural reaction or coincidence, but instead that it was created by a thinking agent. There is no real rational reason for granting this, at least none I've ever seen argued convincingly here or elsewhere, but let's skip that part, I'm saying, as an olive branch to the believer. It doesn't matter, then, if you subscribe to a big bang cosmology BUT it was started by a thinking agent, or if you think the world was created 10000 years ago. What I'm curious about is how does one justify going from "creator" to any god with a capital G. How, essentially, can you convince someone else that your version of the creator is correct, and by extension your religion is the right one, and theirs is INcorrect, and therefore the wrong one?


A simple test is to see how long these scientific theories last. Most of the scientists and speculators are dead,  whereas God appears very much alive to the 2 billion Christians. If you cannot kill God with facts, nothing will.
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For the one I am and for the other I will, what could I possibly care about that?
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@disgusted
I'm just pointing out that every worldview tries to make sense of existence but only one can
99.99% of worldviews don't give a fat rats arse about existence.
Do you not care about whether you live or die?
For the one I am and for the other I will, what could I possibly care about that?
You sidestep the question as usual to misdirect.

What you have said is that you are alive and that you will die and you accept that but if someone threatened your existence right now with death would you care? But as I said, this misdirects what I was getting at. 

In your everyday life do you try to make sense of existence by adopting particular positions? Sure you do. Those positions, your worldview, shape how you look at your existence. Obviously, that is true. Your worldview, as does every worldview, attempts to understand why you are here and supply the meaning. For an atheist, your existence is explained in a limited way by natural unintelligent random processes. There is no ultimate meaning in such a process, yet you are constantly on about meaning and values. You raise a big stink about the biblical God who you hate. Thus, you do not remain consistent with what your worldview is governed towards, no ultimate meaning. You keep borrowing from the Christian system of thought that understands meaning comes from a necessary meaningful Being and our thought process is consistent with its core beliefs. Yours are not. Thus, it is undermined whenever you speak. You betray what you cling to by your inconsistency. 

You make meaning for the protection of your existence and hope others buy into that meaning because it means you live longer, so existence is important. But without an absolute, unchanging best, a fixed and ultimate standard, all you can do is try to outdo some other relative standard that competes with yours. Your system does this with an emotional appeal or by force (if it has the means). But when you come down to the nitty-gritty, your system is no better than any other because you can never point to a best, just something that is evolving and morphing into something else. Thus, what was once proclaimed as "good" and "right" is now seen as "bad" and "wrong." So Hitler's killing of six million becomes no better than any other social convention. It is just whether those in power can get away with it. 

So, if you want to live with what I consider such a stupid system of thought, that is your option.
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You sidestep the question as usual to misdirect.

What you have said is that you are alive and that you will die and you accept that but if someone threatened your existence right now with death would you care? But as I said, this misdirects what I was getting at. 
I answered you very specifically which makes you, as always, a liar.
Would I care if someone threatened my life right now?
I dunno I'd need to be in that situation, but I doubt I would care very much.
Death comes to us all and we won't even know it.

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In your everyday life do you try to make sense of existence by adopting particular positions? Sure you do. Those positions, your worldview, shape how you look at your existence. Obviously, that is true.
Don't ask me questions and then answer erroneously on my behalf. Your definition of true is what bounces around in your bonce and that is a piss poor definition indeed, it only works in your world of delusion.
Your worldview, as does every worldview, attempts to understand why you are here and supply the meaning.
Wrong again.
For an atheist, your existence is explained in a limited way by natural unintelligent random processes.
For an atheist, as for everyone, my existence is explained by my existence. That existence is limited in a cosmic sense but I'll enjoy it for time I have it.
There is no ultimate meaning
Finally you've told the truth. We are born we live and we die, just like every other animal that has ever and will ever exist on this planet.
You make meaning for the protection of your existence and hope others buy into that meaning because it means you live longer, so existence is important.
You prove with every word you write that you live in delusion and know ABSOLUTELY nothing about me. Why would I want to live longer, dead sounds alright.
But without an absolute, unchanging best, a fixed and ultimate standard
Your fixed and ultimate standard partakes in infanticide, genocide, childrape, human sacrifice and slavery, my self appointed standards are parsecs better than that so I don't know why you keep claiming superiority. An argument could be made that Hitler had a higher moral standard than yours.
Gods are the creation of human imagination, don't be scared you won't even know you are dead.
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@disgusted


You sidestep the question as usual to misdirect. 

What you have said is that you are alive and that you will die and you accept that but if someone threatened your existence right now with death would you care? But as I said, this misdirects what I was getting at. 

I answered you very specifically which makes you, as always, a liar.
I made a general statement about worldviews and then I got specific about yours. I say generally because it is irrelevant to someone who has not thought about their existence or does not care. You seem to be in the camp that says they don't care, yet even your words betray that sentiment as I will point out below. 

Here is the original context:

I'm just pointing out that every worldview tries to make sense of existence but only one can
99.99% of worldviews don't give a fat rats arse about existence.
Do you not care about whether you live or die?
For the one I am and for the other I will, what could I possibly care about that?
Your worldview is not the majority one but I would argue an exception if you truly feel the way you do.

What could you possibly care about? Being wrong and being externally separated from God.
What could you possibly care about? Spending eternity in a wicked place separated from God's love and mercy.  

Generally speaking, every worldview (i.e, Christianity, atheism, paganism, materialism, naturalism, Isalm, Hinduism, etc) has a view of existence. The worldview answers at least four basic questions such as who we are, why we are here, what difference does it make, what happens to us when we die. Whether you personally care does not change that, so your statement that 99.99% do not care about existence is misleading. They care enough about it to believe particular things about existence. They care enough to hold particular beliefs about those four categories. 


Would I care if someone threatened my life right now?
I dunno I'd need to be in that situation, but I doubt I would care very much.
Death comes to us all and we won't even know it.
Here again, your words betray what you state previously and even those words are loaded with meaning ("what could I possibly care about that"). There is a difference between what you could and what you do believe about existence.

I dunno I'd need to be in that situation, but I doubt I would care very much.

The fact is you have stated you don't know, you doubt you would care, and then you appear to care since you add the words "very much." So, your whole sentence is pregnant with doubt and inconsistency. On the one hand, you imply and deny that you care and then on the other you add the caveat emptor "care very much."