A classic: From creator god ==> Specific God

Author: ludofl3x

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#871
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@PGA2.0
Just to be clear it DOES NOT MATTER if I have an alternative explanation or not. Even if I provide NO ALTERNATIVE EXPLANATION you must still prove your position and before you can use any prophecy as evidence of some god(s) you MUST SHOW that said prophecy was from the god(s) in question. Indeed before you can use ANY PART OF THE BIBLE as evidence you must prove that the SPECIFIC PASSAGE being used is not simply a man made claim. The bible is USELESS AS EVIDENCE unless you can demonstrate that it is more than a claim. If you have no evidence to present that both extrabiblical and non-testimonial in nature (PHYSICAL EVIDENCE) then there is no reason to continue this disussion.

On a separate note I apologize for my poor grammar and spelling. I am dyslexic and my disability is far more apparent in this medium than if we were simply conversing.

As always thank you for the conversation.
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@keithprosser
Realization of what - the universe is here via random chance happenstance? How does that make sense of origin?
It doesn't have to make sense.

But so much of it does. In a random chance chaotic mindless universe, why do you suppose why we can make sense of so much?

If there is no intent behind the universe why do you suppose we find conformity and uniformity of nature - laws, principles that are discovered rather than invented. These laws and principles exist whether you or I do or not. 
#873
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@secularmerlin
Just to be clear it DOES NOT MATTER if I have an alternative explanation or not.
If you don't have such an explanation then how do you argue that the Christian God is not the most reasonable explanation?

Even if I provide NO ALTERNATIVE EXPLANATION you must still prove your position and before you can use any prophecy as evidence of some god(s) you MUST SHOW that said prophecy was from the god(s) in question.
All the proof in the world is not enough for some people. They would refuse to believe because they want autonomy. If there is a God then we are responsible and obligated to Him. This is not a pleasant thought for most people because of sin. 

I can provide a reasonable and logical defense of my faith. I claim that other faiths cannot. I claim that the Christian faith can make sense of things. I claim other faiths run into logical inconsistencies in both how they live within the boundaries of that particular faith (i.e., practically/application) and in theory (how they explain that faith). 

Indeed before you can use ANY PART OF THE BIBLE as evidence you must prove that the SPECIFIC PASSAGE being used is not simply a man made claim. The bible is USELESS AS EVIDENCE unless you can demonstrate that it is more than a claim. If you have no evidence to present that both extrabiblical and non-testimonial in nature (PHYSICAL EVIDENCE) then there is no reason to continue this disussion.
And how would you do that (underlined)?

You and others don't seem to understand that what the Bible says is verified by other means in many instances. And where it is not the question of whose authority is correct in its assessment is another matter. You tend to believe your highest authority. Let me put it this way for you, if God exists then there is no higher authority I can appeal to. So the question becomes what kind of evidence does the "claims" in the Bible present to the reader? History is one such evidence. Another is making sense of a worldview. How logically consistent is it. You may have noticed (or not) but I have challenged yours and other worldviews to make sense of the universe, life, morality, and a whole host of other issues from within the framework of your/their particular worldview and still be consistent with that worldview. I don't think it can be done. I keep seeing people saying they can't be sure. Well, what is necessary for surety? Is it your subjective mind operating within the confines of your subjective experience? I know it is not mine that determines surety in and of itself. 


On a separate note I apologize for my poor grammar and spelling. I am dyslexic and my disability is far more apparent in this medium than if we were simply conversing.
No problem. We all make mistakes! I just wanted to make sure I got your meaning. I think I may be a little dyslexic too. Either that or careless. I use Grammarly to correct my mistakes.



As always thank you for the conversation.
And I thank you for engaging!

#874
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If you don't have such an explanation then how do you argue that the Christian God is not the most reasonable explanation?
I do not claim that ANY explanation is more reasonable than any other. You have claimed that one explanation is more reasonable but you have not provided any SUFFICIENT evidence that this is the case.
I claim 
I do not care what you claim. Only what you can prove.
Indeed before you can use ANY PART OF THE BIBLE as evidence you must prove that the SPECIFIC PASSAGE being used is not simply a man made claim. The bible is USELESS AS EVIDENCE unless you can demonstrate that it is more than a claim. If you have no evidence to present that both extrabiblical and non-testimonial in nature (PHYSICAL EVIDENCE) then there is no reason to continue this disussion.
And how would you do that (underlined)?
I honestly don't think that you can. You've been trying for awhile now and you don't even seem to understand why you need evidence for your claim.
You may have noticed (or not) but I have challenged yours and other worldviews to make sense of the universe
I have noticed. The simple truth however is that even if EVERY OTHER WORLD VIEW PROPOSED BY HUMANS IS WRONG that does not make yours right.
No problem. We all make mistakes! I just wanted to make sure I got your meaning. I think I may be a little dyslexic too. Either that or careless. I use Grammarly to correct my mistakes.
I appreciate your patience in this matter
And I thank you for engaging!
You are welcome.
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@secularmerlin
If you don't have such an explanation then how do you argue that the Christian God is not the most reasonable explanation?
I do not claim that ANY explanation is more reasonable than any other. You have claimed that one explanation is more reasonable but you have not provided any SUFFICIENT evidence that this is the case.

Was Jerusalem and the temple prophesied to be destroyed before it happened? 
Were they destroyed in AD 70?

Does not the OT provide a constant warning to these people that if they did not turn from idols to God He would judge them?
Were the curses of Deuteronomy 28 experienced by these people in AD 70? Josephus, among others, describes them taking place in AD 70. 

Was the OT taken out of the way with a new covenant as per Jeremiah 31:27-40?
Can Jews still follow the letter of the Mosaic Law as stipulated in the Torah?

Was the promised Messiah prophesied to come to a people in Mosaic covenant relationship with God?
Were these people looking for the promised Messiah? 
Did Jesus meet the prophetic message of the OT? 

I could go on and on but is there historical EVIDENCE that these things happened, as prophesied?

Is it reasonable to believe any of these prophecies? Yes, or no, and explain why. Let us see if your answer reflects the history that we know and that is reasonable to believe. Go ahead!

I claim 
I do not care what you claim.
That is obvious. You can't explain something to someone who does not want to listen to the explanation. 



Only what you can prove.
Again, what kind of proof would you accept? This is the problem we get into when two worldviews conflict and that is why Jesus said, 

He who has ears to hear, let him hear.

He who has ears, let him hear.”

For the heart of this people has become dull, With their ears they scarcely hear, And they have closed their eyes, Otherwise they would see with their eyes, Hear with their ears, And understand with their heart and return, And I would heal them.’

But blessed are your eyes, because they see; and your ears, because they hear.

Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

So, what I am saying is that any evidence I present you will reject because you have explained above (see your underlined first statement) that you do not wish to understand it and weigh its logic and reasoning. I have been shut down from presenting the evidence and its reasonableness. 
 
Indeed before you can use ANY PART OF THE BIBLE as evidence you must prove that the SPECIFIC PASSAGE being used is not simply a man made claim. The bible is USELESS AS EVIDENCE unless you can demonstrate that it is more than a claim. If you have no evidence to present that both extrabiblical and non-testimonial in nature (PHYSICAL EVIDENCE) then there is no reason to continue this disussion.
And how would you do that (underlined)?
I honestly don't think that you can.
Therefore, with anything I present (whether logical and reasonable or not) you will find fault. 


You've been trying for awhile now and you don't even seem to understand why you need evidence for your claim.
You deny the evidence and shut it down. Again, was Jerusalem and the temple destroyed in AD 70? Was this predicted in detail in the OT and written down hundreds of years before it happened (is that reasonable to believe based on the evidence available?)?  

You may have noticed (or not) but I have challenged yours and other worldviews to make sense of the universe
I have noticed. The simple truth however is that even if EVERY OTHER WORLD VIEW PROPOSED BY HUMANS IS WRONG that does not make yours right.
Does it give a reasonable and logical explanation for our existence and the origin of the universe as opposed to blind, indifferent, mindless, chance happenstance that a worldview devoid of God would have to believe? Can your worldview make sense of existence and origins? I claim it can't. So, you are welcome to believe nonsense if you like but don't categorize my worldview is with yours. 

No problem. We all make mistakes! I just wanted to make sure I got your meaning. I think I may be a little dyslexic too. Either that or careless. I use Grammarly to correct my mistakes.
I appreciate your patience in this matter
It is no problem. I just wanted to make sure I was understanding you correctly. If you have questions with my statements please do not hesitate to find clarity by questioning them. 

And I thank you for engaging!
You are welcome.


#876
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@secularmerlin
PS, I did not realize you had responded because you did not direct the post at me. I was just scrolling down to see what was new and came across your post. 
#877
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ABRAHAMIC... ????...........A Comic Book Series.... featuring the JEW GOD of MOSES.....invented 1400 years before the JESUS HOAX...then 600                                                   years after the JESUS boy GOD hoax was murdered by ROME per the JEWS demands...some illiterate MUHAMMAD                                                   ARAB guy has his version of the "(Moses meets GOD moment")  and VOILA !   ALLAH is the GOD of GODS !   

THE TRUTH of Abrahamic RELIGIONS =  All 3.....JEW - JESUS -  ALLAH... are human invented fabricated Comic Book HOAXES...all 3 are STOLEN
                                                                    and TWISTED versions of other GOD stories and Religions of the Middle East region going back 3000 
                                                                    years BEFORE the JEW God shows up !  let alone the JESUS and ALLAH GOD invented GARBAGE...


The TIMELINE of history over the last 10,000 years proves beyond any doubt how the JEW - JESUS - ALLAH GOD hoaxes ARE nothing more than 
twisted versions of other GODS in human history...GODS ?  thousands of them have come and gone just like COMIC BOOK CHARACTERS...the
difference with the ABRAHAMIC GOD GARBAGE is how world class PSYCHOPATH MIND and LIFE MOLESTERS use them as SCAPEGOATS
to enslave the masses of deliberately DUMBED DOWN human ASSES....

THE RESULT....= Unprecedented DEATH and DESTRUCTION using the JEW - JESUS - ALLAH GOD invented HOAXES to THIS DAY !

None of the CON ARTIST VAMPIRE SCUM  Religious Circus Clowns in Halloween Glory Gowns is concerned with HUMAN and EARTH
WELL BEING..these are OLD MEN acting like a GOD...playing games with the minds and lives of others for POWER and CONTROL

these HUMAN Bible/Torah/Koran spewing PARASITE VAMPIRES are the greatest THREAT to HUMAN - ANIMAL - EARTH....they despise the
OPEN MINDED curious HUMAN and demand total OBEDIENCE to horrifically OBSOLETE and OPPRESSIVE DOGMA they invent and attach 
to their FAKE GOD HOAXES....

Sadly due to the HYPNOSIS PSYCHOSIS these Parasite GOD preaching VAMPIRES induce using FEAR - INTIMIDATION - VIOLENCE as TOOLS
in the name of their totally ASININE God invented HOAXES...the weak and feeble minded humans fall for the ILLUSION that they will SUFFER for
all eternity when they DROP DEAD..unless the SERVE the PARASITES without question..including the MURDER and TORTURE of all who do not
accept and OBEY them.....

So...where the FCK IS THEIR GOD ?  to save these pathetic creatures under the spell of the Parasite VAMPIRES they serve first ?   NOWHERE

All 3 Abrahamic GOD HOAXES remain INVISIBLE and OUT OF TOUCH....what a SCAM....

SOLUTION ?   YES....relegate these 3 STOOGE GOD hoaxes to MYTHOLOGY like they have done to all the other GODS humans invented...
...like ZEUS...ODIN....APOLLO...and thousands more who are no longer USED as GODS by the Parasite VAMPIRES for power and control

.......NO HUMAN EVER needs to be validated and approved to EXIST and DIE by some Parasite VAMPIRE preacher in a Halloween Glory Gown
who plays GOD but ...eats...sleeps...sits on a toilet...and DIES like all other humans...WHAT a DISGUSTING JOKE on HUMANITY these Clowns
of the Abrahamic GOD HOAXES truly are....

Save HUMANITY and EARTH by ridding the planet of these 3 Abrahamic DISEASE...GOD inventions...reduce them to the Comic Book GARBAGE
they truly are and FORGET....going forward....as humanity has done with all the other GODS and RELIGIONS before them.....

#878
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@PGA2.0
Oddly no matter how many times I point out that prophe y is insufficient to prove your claim you double down and just keep saying the same thing. I've even explained why it is irrelevant (there is no way to establish it's source beyond a reasonable doubt to say nothing of being able to test for said source scientifically) now please let's move on from your irrelevant red herring. Please. No really, please.
#879
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@secularmerlin
The ABRAHAMIC GODS are a JOKE...used to incite FEAR - INTIMIDATION - VIOLENCE all 3 are human INVENTIONS and WORTHLESS...

When these absurd Comic Book Characters actually REVEAL THEMSELVES to humanity...then MAYBE there will be UNITY....the TRUTH 
however is all 3 Abrahamic GODS are human FABRICATIONS...twisted and spun into new versions of older no longer relevant GODS ?

How is it that all the other GODS humans invented are NO LONGER VIABLE ?   oh right....just accept some new comic book version of a GOD
as FACT and OBEY...this is the STUFF of TRULY PSYCHOTIC RETARDS....even the POPES are trashed..come and go like the GODS they 
serve !   what a JOKE....

Time for HUMANITY to rid EARTH of these 3 stooge Abrahamic GOD hoaxes.....

What of the Billion CHINESE who spit on these 3 GOD FOOLS ?  and the Billion INDIANS also...and a BILLION other HUMANS who understand
that these 3 GOD hoaxes are used for WAR...DEATH...DESTRUCTION ....not enlightenment and wellness....oh right they are ALL GOING TO HELL

No the JEW - JESUS - ALLAH GOD sheeple drone slaves are the HELL on this EARTH...hypnotized to murder all who do not accept and OBEY
their idiotic GOD spin....everyone LOSES...

Choose the JEW GOD...and the CHRISTIAN and MUSLIM both CONDEMN YOU
Choose the JESUS .......and the JEW and MUSLIM CONDEMN YOU
Choose the ALLAH........and the CHRISTIAN and JEW CONDEMN YOU

What a CROCK OF SHT all 3 of these GOD hoaxes are....look at the Middle East RESULT......thousands of years and Billions MURDERED...

They are TRULY HELL on this EARTH and must be reduced to MYTHOLOGY for mindless people....who can pray and drown in the DOGMA 
attached to these idiot GODS...but NEVER TO CAUSE HARM in their names EVER AGAIN...off to the Comic book shelf...JEW - JESUS - ALLAH
GOD garbage HOAXES....
#880
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@secularmerlin
Oddly no matter how many times I point out that prophe y is insufficient to prove your claim you double down and just keep saying the same thing. I've even explained why it is irrelevant (there is no way to establish it's source beyond a reasonable doubt to say nothing of being able to test for said source scientifically) now please let's move on from your irrelevant red herring. Please. No really, please.
I see you as the one who is not being reasonable in seeing history is evidence that verifies prophetic claims.
I see you as unreasonable in accounting for existence without God.

I suggest you try explaining existence without God and see where you get in making sense of anything.

I invite you to examine the possibilities of existence, morality, and origins. Make sense of them with an atheistic worldview or a worldview that denies the biblical God and see how you do. 

#881
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@WisdomofAges
The ABRAHAMIC GODS are a JOKE...used to incite FEAR - INTIMIDATION - VIOLENCE all 3 are human INVENTIONS and WORTHLESS...

When these absurd Comic Book Characters actually REVEAL THEMSELVES to humanity...then MAYBE there will be UNITY....the TRUTH 
however is all 3 Abrahamic GODS are human FABRICATIONS...twisted and spun into new versions of older no longer relevant GODS ?

How is it that all the other GODS humans invented are NO LONGER VIABLE ?   oh right....just accept some new comic book version of a GOD
as FACT and OBEY...this is the STUFF of TRULY PSYCHOTIC RETARDS....even the POPES are trashed..come and go like the GODS they 
serve !   what a JOKE....

Time for HUMANITY to rid EARTH of these 3 stooge Abrahamic GOD hoaxes.....

What of the Billion CHINESE who spit on these 3 GOD FOOLS ?  and the Billion INDIANS also...and a BILLION other HUMANS who understand
that these 3 GOD hoaxes are used for WAR...DEATH...DESTRUCTION ....not enlightenment and wellness....oh right they are ALL GOING TO HELL

No the JEW - JESUS - ALLAH GOD sheeple drone slaves are the HELL on this EARTH...hypnotized to murder all who do not accept and OBEY
their idiotic GOD spin....everyone LOSES...

Choose the JEW GOD...and the CHRISTIAN and MUSLIM both CONDEMN YOU
Choose the JESUS .......and the JEW and MUSLIM CONDEMN YOU
Choose the ALLAH........and the CHRISTIAN and JEW CONDEMN YOU

What a CROCK OF SHT all 3 of these GOD hoaxes are....look at the Middle East RESULT......thousands of years and Billions MURDERED...

They are TRULY HELL on this EARTH and must be reduced to MYTHOLOGY for mindless people....who can pray and drown in the DOGMA 
attached to these idiot GODS...but NEVER TO CAUSE HARM in their names EVER AGAIN...off to the Comic book shelf...JEW - JESUS - ALLAH
GOD garbage HOAXES....

Says who, you? Big bloody deal! Who are you to pontificate what is and is not? Why would I believe what you have to say as you mascarade as the "Wisdom of Ages?"
#882
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How does the hole fit the puddle so perfectly?
#883
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@PGA2.0
I suggest you try explaining existence without God and see where you get in making sense of anything.
Shifting the burden of proof. I never claimed to have such an explanation I simply do not accept yours.

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#884
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@PGA2.0
I suggest you try explaining existence without God and see where you get in making sense of anything.

Can you please explain existence making sense only if your version of God is in it? I think you just say "because God's there" in essence, which literally explains nothing. I think you're confusing purpose (which I'd say is 'making sense' in this case) with cause (god's magic). And you've said the prophecy makes no difference to your belief in god, so why bother using that as a reason to convince anyone else? If it makes no difference to you and you believe, how on earth could it sway anyone who DOESN'T already believe? 
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@secularmerlin
I suggest you try explaining existence without God and see where you get in making sense of anything.
Shifting the burden of proof.
I'm just pointing out that every worldview tries to make sense of existence but only one can. Prophecy is a vehicle that gives reason to believe the Bible because prophecy is supported by history that is reasonable and logical to believe. But you and others will not engage in this discussion. You keep falsely stating that there is no evidence for the biblical God and that is why I keep inviting you guys to engage yet you keep squirming out of the discussion. 


I never claimed to have such an explanation I simply do not accept yours.


Exactly, you can't make sense of it within your worldview.
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@ludofl3x
Can you please explain existence making sense only if your version of God is in it?
My version? I point to the biblical revelation. If you can prove I misrepresent that text then you win your case. 

I think you just say "because God's there" in essence, which literally explains nothing.
No, I ask how you derive existence from an unintentional and purposeless happenstance and how you make sense of it. If you choose a god of some kind I ask you to explain that god and if it makes sense.

I think you're confusing purpose (which I'd say is 'making sense' in this case) with cause (god's magic).
How do you make sense of the universe if there is no purpose to it?

Is there a cause to the universe? If so, what is that cause? (Please answer these three questions before we continue)

From the biblical God, we find what is logical and reasonable to believe.

We find life coming from a living and necessary personal Being. 
We have a source to base morality on that is not changing and relative, based on shifting human standards. 
We have intentionality that is necessary for sustaining life and the universe. With blind indifferent chance happenstance, why do we see consistency and uniformity in nature (i.e., unchanging universal laws that govern the universe)?

So, with God, we find what is necessary to make sense of existence, morality, origins. 


And you've said the prophecy makes no difference to your belief in god, so why bother using that as a reason to convince anyone else? If it makes no difference to you and you believe, how on earth could it sway anyone who DOESN'T already believe? 
I use it because it is an evidence God has given and I see it as evidence that is hard to refute with logic and reason because prophecy is based in history (His-Story). 



#887
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@PGA2.0
Prophecy is a vehicle that gives reason to believe the Bible because prophecy is supported by history 
I have already explained why I remain dubious about prophecy after the fact, prophetic interpretations and also why even a bona fied prophecy is not evidence of your proposition. Do you have a secind best argument?
I never claimed to have such an explanation I simply do not accept yours.


Exactly, you can't make sense of it within your worldview.
Which whether true or false does not obligate me to accept your claims without any sufficient demonstration and I'm not sure how you would go about demonstrating any being that exists outside our local space-time universe
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#888
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My version? I point to the biblical revelation. If you can prove I misrepresent that text then you win your case. 

So you're saying that in order to DISbelieve in something, it's incumbent upon the person to DISprove whatever that something is? If so, how did you disprove any single other god besides the one in the bible in order to choose to believe in him? Do you really not understand why this is not how truth works? If you are making a claim ("THIS ONE GOD EXISTS" in this case), it's incumbent on you to provide the evidence supporting it. You've never done so. Maybe this time you will?
No, I ask how you derive existence from an unintentional and purposeless happenstance and how you make sense of it. If you choose a god of some kind I ask you to explain that god and if it makes sense.
I gave you the example of the classical pantheon. Your response was basically "But they're not real like my god is, so it's not real."  I've explained why it makes more sense than your god, too. You also said "Yeah but Jesus isn't in your story, so that's a problem." I await your detailed and evidence based refutation. Let me guess, the bible says the bible's true. In this case, I say the pantheon is real, therefore it's on you to prove it isn't, and my saying it's real is evidence that it's real.

How do you make sense of the universe if there is no purpose to it?
This question makes no sense to me. I don't understand what "make sense of the universe" means. I look forward to you explaining how you "make sense of" it, in some future post I'm sure, so I can compare what you're saying with this question and then try to answer to it. I also do not understand "purpose" in this context. Please clarify.

Is there a cause to the universe? If so, what is that cause? (Please answer these three questions before we continue)
I've answered these multiple times now. Don't know, don't know. So in order, don't understand your question, don't know, don't know. 

We find life coming from a living and necessary personal Being. 

Defining something as necessary is not demonstrating it as such. You've also said life can only come from life, so I'm curious where the life in this being would have come from (I'll save you the time: it came from the font of Special Pleading). Oddly though, 900 responses later, you are STILL MISSING THE POINT OF THIS THREAD. The thread grants the above condition. The challenge is to get from here, which is deism, to your Jesus. Your lack of attempt here is telling. 

We have a source to base morality on that is not changing and relative, based on shifting human standards. 
So is it okay to stone someone for wearing clothes of mixed fabric? Was it ever? Should a woman who turns out not to be a virgin be stoned in front of her dad's house? It was clearly okay in the bible, is it okay now? Was it ever? Is it ever okay to kill another person according to the ten commandments? What's more important: not taking the lord's name in vain, or not raping someone? Is it ever okay to rape the women of a conquered army? Is it ever okay to sell a daughter into sex slavery? Was it ever okay?

We have intentionality that is necessary for sustaining life and the universe. With blind indifferent chance happenstance, why do we see consistency and uniformity in nature (i.e., unchanging universal laws that govern the universe)?
Please demonstrate the intentionality and give your best guess as to the AIM of this intention. My answer to your question is "that's how the laws of physics work." THis is demonstrable. Please demonstrate how you came up with intent. 

THEN DEMONSTRATE IT WAS JESUS. Good grief man. 
#889
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@secularmerlin
Prophecy is a vehicle that gives reason to believe the Bible because prophecy is supported by history 
I have already explained why I remain dubious about prophecy after the fact, prophetic interpretations and also why even a bona fied prophecy is not evidence of your proposition. Do you have a secind best argument?
Well, there are so many, but I always come back to three basic arguments - 1) prophecy, 2) morality, 3) existence/origins (and making sense of them). 

I never claimed to have such an explanation I simply do not accept yours.


Exactly, you can't make sense of it within your worldview.
Which whether true or false does not obligate me to accept your claims without any sufficient demonstration and I'm not sure how you would go about demonstrating any being that exists outside our local space-time universe

No, you don't have to accept them and how could I ever convince someone who does not want to be convinced? That is the question and I will not delude myself that I can do that (only God can). What I can do, however, is challenge your worldview and understanding as to how what you believe is possible when you get to the nuts and bolts of your belief system. 


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@secularmerlin
Van Til expressed it this way:

"Whose perspective is intellectually justified, the Christian's or the non-Christian's? Many budding Christian apologists approach the answer to this question in a very simplistic and naive fashion, thinking that all we have to do is go look at the observable evidence and see whose hypothesis is verified. "After all," it is thought, "this is how we resolve disagreements in our ordinary affairs, as well as in science."[2] If a dispute arises over the price of eggs at the store, we can jump in the car, drive down to the market, and go look for ourselves at the price listed on the eggs. If scientists disagree over the claim that smoking causes cancer, they can run tests, do statistical comparisons, etc. In such cases, it seems that what we do, at base, is "look and see" if one hypothesis or its opposite is true. Of course, disagreements such as these can be readily resolved in this fashion only because the two people who disagree nevertheless agree with each other regarding more basic assumptions - such as the reliability of their senses, the uniformity of natural events, the accuracy of data reporting, the honesty of researchers, etc.

However, when the dispute is over more fundamental issues, as it is between believers and unbelievers, simple appeals to observational evidence need not be decisive at all. The reason is that a person's most fundamental beliefs (or presuppositions) determine what he or she will accept as evidence and determine how that evidence will be interpreted. Let me illustrate. Naturalism and supernaturalism are conflicting outlooks regarding the world in which we live and man's knowledge of it. The naturalist claims that what is studied by empirical science[3] is all that there is to reality, and that every event can (in principle) be explained without resorting to forces outside the scope of man's experience or outside the universe. Christian supernaturalism, on the other hand, believes that there is a transcendent and all-powerful God who can intervene in the universe and perform miracles which cannot be explained by the ordinary principles of man's natural experience. Now then, having well-accredited reports of a "miraculous" event is not in itself sufficient to change the mind of the naturalist - and for good reason. The naturalist's presuppositions will require him to dispute the claim that such an event really occurred, or alternatively, will lead him to say that the event is subject to a natural explanation once we learn more about it. Simple evidence need not dislodge his naturalistic approach to all things - any more than simple eye-ball evidence could ever in itself refute the Hindu conviction that everything about man's temporal experience is Maya (illusion). Our presuppositions about the nature of reality and knowledge will control what we accept as evidence and how we view it.[4]

Everybody has what can be called a "worldview," a perspective in terms of which they see everything and understand their perceptions and feelings. A worldview is a network of related presuppositions in terms of which every aspect of man's knowledge and awareness is interpreted. This worldview, as explained above, is not completely derived from human experience, nor can it be verified or refuted by the procedures of natural science. Not everybody reflects explicitly upon the content of his worldview or is consistent in maintaining it, but everybody has one nonetheless. A person's worldview clues him as to the nature, structure and origin of reality. It tells him what are the limits of possibility. It involves a view of the nature, sources and limits of human knowledge. It includes fundamental convictions about right and wrong. One's worldview says something about who man is, his place in the universe, and the meaning of life, etc. Worldviews determine our acceptance and understanding of events in human experience, and thus they play the crucial role in our interpreting of evidence or in disputes over conflicting fundamental beliefs.[5]

We saw above that apologetics, in the nature of the case, involves argumentation over the justification of belief or rejection of belief. And what we have just observed is that one's treatment of the issue of justification of belief will be governed by his underlying worldview or presuppositions. Effective apologetics necessarily leads us to challenge and debate the unbeliever at the level his most basic commitments or assumptions about reality, knowledge and ethics. Our approach to defending the faith is shallow and ineffective if we think that the unbeliever simply lacks information or needs to be given observational evidence.[6]
The Bible teaches us that the mental and spiritual perspectives of believers and unbelievers differ radically from each other. In principle, and according to what they profess, the basic worldviews - the fundamental presuppositions - of the Christian and non-Christian conflict with each other at every point."


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Well, there are so many, but I always come back to three basic arguments - 1) prophecy, 2) morality, 3) existence/origins (and making sense of them). 
Prophecy is irrelevant to the question mirals are subjective and also irrelevant since you having a good moral framework is no demonstration that the source of your morals is more than fables and so far as I know it is completely beyond human epistemology at this time to say what if anything existed or happened before the planc time (if gappened or before are even applicable terms. Do you have a fourth best argument?

As to the illustrious van til it is not my claim that the supernatural cannot exist my entire argument front to back is that it has NOT BEEN DEMONSTRATED  and that I cannot maintain a belief in an undeminstrated claim of this nature.

Before we can go any further I feel it is important that you understand the difference between rejecting a claim and claiming the opposite. I do not claim to know that no god(s) exist I am observing that no god claim I have to date encountered has met with its burden of proof.

This concept is vital so if you are having difficulty with it please let me know.
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My version? I point to the biblical revelation. If you can prove I misrepresent that text then you win your case. 

So you're saying that in order to DISbelieve in something, it's incumbent upon the person to DISprove whatever that something is?
My answer was in reference to your statement, "Can you please explain existence making sense only if your version of God is in it?"

What is knowledge? Van Til (as quoted in my last reply to Secularmerlin) explains knowledge as justified true belief. You questioned my view of God, or as you expressed it, "your version." So my answer is in context to "your version."


If so, how did you disprove any single other god besides the one in the bible in order to choose to believe in him?
I would do so by showing the logical inconsistency of such belief, the very thing I do with atheism. I get them to trip over their own belief system in showing its inconsistencies and on how they borrow from my Christian belief system in making sense of reality. 

Thus, every belief system has points of contention that I use to undermine it. I do not believe that Christianity does when rightly discerned since I believe the revelation is from an omniscient, objective, wise Being, not a subjective, relative position that is always shifting. 

Do you really not understand why this is not how truth works? If you are making a claim ("THIS ONE GOD EXISTS" in this case), it's incumbent on you to provide the evidence supporting it. You've never done so. Maybe this time you will?
I have tried to open the discussion to such reasoning. You are not willing. Thus, there is no point in further discussion until it becomes a two-way discussion, a give and take.

Were Jerusalem and the temple destroyed in AD 70? Is this reasonable to believe?  
Is it reasonable to believe from the evidence available that the OT was written before the fall? 
Is it reasonable to believe that the curses of Deuteronomy 28 were applied to the Jews in AD 70?
Is it reasonable to believe that the Messiah was prophesied to come to a people in Mosaic Covenant relationship to God?
Is it reasonable to believe that the prophets give Israel warning of coming judgment by God? 
Is it reasonable to believe that the Old Mosaic Covenant can no longer be lived as agreed to in Exodus 24:3,7 by Israel and commanded by God?

No, I ask how you derive existence from an unintentional and purposeless happenstance and how you make sense of it. If you choose a god of some kind I ask you to explain that god and if it makes sense.
I gave you the example of the classical pantheon. Your response was basically "But they're not real like my god is, so it's not real."  I've explained why it makes more sense than your god, too. You also said "Yeah but Jesus isn't in your story, so that's a problem." I await your detailed and evidence based refutation. Let me guess, the bible says the bible's true. In this case, I say the pantheon is real, therefore it's on you to prove it isn't, and my saying it's real is evidence that it's real.
My defence is the Christian faith, not some other religious belief. Give me specifics if you want to discuss another "god." Show me how they compare to the biblical God. 


How do you make sense of the universe if there is no purpose to it?
This question makes no sense to me. I don't understand what "make sense of the universe" means. I look forward to you explaining how you "make sense of" it, in some future post I'm sure, so I can compare what you're saying with this question and then try to answer to it. I also do not understand "purpose" in this context. Please clarify.
It means how do you make sense of why we are here from your worldview perspective? You build a whole philosophy of life excluding God so how does your belief system account for the universe? 


Is there a cause to the universe? If so, what is that cause? (Please answer these three questions before we continue)
I've answered these multiple times now. Don't know, don't know. So in order, don't understand your question, don't know, don't know.\
Precisely my point. You don't know but you exclude the biblical God as making sense of it. How do you know?  

 

We find life coming from a living and necessary personal Being. 

Defining something as necessary is not demonstrating it as such.
It makes more sense than something not coming from being. Demonstrate "something" coming from non-being (and included in the something is living beings).

Next, show me where you EVER witness something living coming from something that is not living. 


You've also said life can only come from life, so I'm curious where the life in this being would have come from (I'll save you the time: it came from the font of Special Pleading).
Again, it is a logical and reasonable inference. Do you understand that?

I've said that life coming from the living is something I can understand for it is something I witness and understand. It is not inconsistent with observance. I have also said that NECESSARY Being, transcendent Being of which neither you nor I am. 


Oddly though, 900 responses later, you are STILL MISSING THE POINT OF THIS THREAD. The thread grants the above condition. The challenge is to get from here, which is deism, to your Jesus. Your lack of attempt here is telling.
And I have said that prophecy is evidence for it is based in history. I have also asked you to explain it by other means other than God and you keep saying you don't know, you have no idea. I have challenged you to make sense of it without this necessary Being. You keep telling me you can't. So, you are welcome to your belief system. It sucks but to each his own. Some people will always come up with another "what if" for the very reason that they don't want to believe, as the Bible points out. That is between you and God. 

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@ludofl3x
I haven't seen this one here, and this place could use a couple of new topics. Unfortunately it seems like there are less theists here than atheists, so I'm not sure about the traffic this place will get. Here we go:

Let's say we take for granted that the universe is here as it is not because of any natural reaction or coincidence, but instead that it was created by a thinking agent. There is no real rational reason for granting this, at least none I've ever seen argued convincingly here or elsewhere, but let's skip that part, I'm saying, as an olive branch to the believer. It doesn't matter, then, if you subscribe to a big bang cosmology BUT it was started by a thinking agent, or if you think the world was created 10000 years ago. What I'm curious about is how does one justify going from "creator" to any god with a capital G. How, essentially, can you convince someone else that your version of the creator is correct, and by extension your religion is the right one, and theirs is INcorrect, and therefore the wrong one?



Christianity has reduced its core beliefs to worshipping a dead Jewish corpse named Jesus who died for their sins 2000 years ago. The creation and evolution theories are immaterial to Christians because the path to salvation is not how we got here but who can get us out of the mess we are in. So while scientists argue, the dead Jewish corpse remains the only viable solution.

Harikrish biblical scholar and spiritual leader.
#894
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@PGA2.0
The ABRAHAMIC GODS are a JOKE...used to incite FEAR - INTIMIDATION - VIOLENCE all 3 are human INVENTIONS and are WORTHLESS..


..........The TRUTH revealed.....but YOU ......PGA2.0................can't handle the TRUTH..........your BRAIN is saturated with BIBLE VERSE VOMIT
and Church brainwashing DOGMA....YOU are a slave to a Comic Book Story HOAX....as children are when they are exposed to Santa Claus...
and become convinced they must OBEY the RULES in order to receive the GIFTS they DESIRE...this FORMULA for HYPNOSIS PSYCHOSIS
to accept what is told to them as FACT...is eventually understood by the child as a CLEVER HOAX....to teach them how to OBEY and be rewarded
for doing so....it's a simple technique = OBEY or be PUNISHED and SUFFER....this is the foundation of the JEW - JESUS - ALLAH GOD garbage

This FORMULA of OBEY or be PUNISHED is used by the Middle East JEW - JESUS - ALLAH Parasite VAMPIRE preachers who act like a GOD and through clever MIND CONTROL STRATEGIES dumb down the children and adults to accept their asinine GOD - Bible / Koran / Torah Comic Book VOMIT as an absolute TRUTH....

Why then are 3 GODS needed ?  3 GODS remain from the thousands before them invented and worshipped in the middle East ? 

and what of all the other GODS humans invented and worship around the world in the PAST and PRESENT TIMES ?   

Oh RIGHT, according to the pathetic BRAINWASHED and DUMBED DOWN ......PGA2.0.......who is incapable of independent thought and reasoning
all must accept his / her ? idiotic version of some comic Book Bible VOMIT and the GOD attached to it or forever be WRONG and CONDEMNED to
HELL !   what a FOOL.....to believe this horrifically childish and OBSOLETE Cartoon GOD character = JEW - JESUS - ALLAH invented by old men
in a long gone and absurdly IGNORANT era of humanity...whose only purpose was to assimilate and enslave weak minded humans int some idiotic CULT
so the old men could play GOD with them !   what a JOKE....

the ABRAHAMIC Jew - Jesus - Allah GOD hoaxes PROVE beyond any doubt how TRULY STUPID the masses of humanity are...so easily manipulated into slavery and servitude of an invisible SUPER BEING who itself is to FCKG LAZY to actually show up and guide its own idiotic
human creation from exterminating itself !   because his own creation does not believe he exist so they create other GODS ....!

Like,       HEY Joe...YOUR GOD SUCKS...let's create a new GOD and call it  BETTY .....OK Joe said....and then we can go back to KINDERGARTEN
class and make all the other kids OBEY our NEW GOD...BETTY !   or else we will tell them they will be expelled from school if they don't accept....
...COOL !  Joe said.....now I to can PLAY GOD and make the other kids OBEY ME...because I am BETTY's Prophet...!   Prophet Joe in the name
of "GOD BETTY" all must OBEY....Kneel for BETTY...beg for forgiveness...for YOU have SINNED and "BETTY" is angry with YOU....repent...
CONFESS your CRIME of even existing as a SINNER...now fall on the floor and shake for "GOD BETTY"  to prove your loyalty....then OBEY me
PROPHET JOE....for only I am the speaker of GOD BETTY....all rise...and bow to me Prophet JOE....your guide and MASTER to all things "BETTY"

OBEY....or be PUNISHED and SUFFER....so says "GOD BETTY" and I Prophet Jow will carry out all punishment...as it is written in the NEWER
TESTAMENT.....the word of "GOD BETTY"  the BETTY BIBLE....all kneel and thank Lord "BETTY" for this gift...the BETTY BIBLE" of verse VOMIT
for all to LIVE and DIE by.....

..........The Abrahamic GOD garbage is nothing more than a TROJAN HORSE PLOY used to assimilate truly STUPID humans into slavery of some 
idiotic JEW - JESUS - ALLAH GOD invented CULT .....truly the HELL on this EARTH these Parasite VAMPIRES are who fabricated this 3 GOD 
garbage hoax and the idiots that are HYPNOTIZED and FOLLOW this crap to their GRAVES...
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@ludofl3x
 

We have a source to base morality on that is not changing and relative, based on shifting human standards. 
So is it okay to stone someone for wearing clothes of mixed fabric? Was it ever?
Stoning was the consequences of sin. 

Again, it was a teaching of the Mosaic Covenant and it was used by God to teach ancient Israel (who lived in a different culture and times) some important truths that God is holy and they should be true in their relationship to Him. He demonstrates sin has consequences. 

Should a woman who turns out not to be a virgin be stoned in front of her dad's house? It was clearly okay in the bible, is it okay now?
Why was a woman stoned to death? It was for unfaithfulness and sexual promiscuity. 

Again, we do not live in a Mosaic Covenant era. We, as Christians, live by the grace and mercy of God in Christ Jesus!

There were reasons for these commands related to the culture of the times (see ANE cultures and laws). These people were to understand the holiness of God and what it means to live in a covenant relationship (symbolic of marriage). It signifies to Christians a greater truth, our relationship to Jesus Christ, as does all of Scripture. God does not want us to compromise that relationship. Thus, the penalty for adultery or sexual immorality was death. There are various warnings of adultery in the NT. 

Glenn Miller of the Christian Think Tank has written extensively on the subject of ANE cultures in relation to the Bible. You can find some of his articles on slavery, rape, and other issues that include stoning on the website that explains it far better for anyone interested. Not only is the biblical standard explained but so are other ANE cultures examined. 








Was it ever? Is it ever okay to kill another person according to the ten commandments?
The penalty of sin is death by whatever means decreed. We all die physically. Israel was a theocracy. They lived under God's rules that He purposed for the culture they lived in. They are also an example and instruction to us regarding His holiness and presence.  



What's more important: not taking the lord's name in vain, or not raping someone?
They are both sinful but taking God's name in vain, IMO, is showing much more disrespect for your Maker since the first command is to worship God and serve only Him. Loving God and following His commands (in a perfect world) would not result in rape or any other sin.  

Is it ever okay to rape the women of a conquered army? Is it ever okay to sell a daughter into sex slavery? Was it ever okay?
Not in God's sight. Again, you misunderstand ANE culture and the biblical standard. What Israel did and what God commanded are not always the same. 




#896
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@ludofl3x


We have intentionality that is necessary for sustaining life and the universe. With blind indifferent chance happenstance, why do we see consistency and uniformity in nature (i.e., unchanging universal laws that govern the universe)?
Please demonstrate the intentionality and give your best guess as to the AIM of this intention.
Intentionality is only possible with conscious being. The biblical God is revealed as such a Being. A rock lacks intention. It can't plan or purpose anything. It has no agency to do so. With evolution, there is no intent for anything to survive. It just happens. We deem those who do survive and pass on their genes the strong and fit yet it is not the purpose of evolution for this to happen. The Big Bang did not have the intent to bring the universe into existence. With a materialistic worldview, the universe just happened. There is no intent to sustain itself. It just happens. Go figure?


My answer to your question is "that's how the laws of physics work." THis is demonstrable.
"Laws" generally speaking, have a lawgiver yet it is assumed (and presupposed) by most materialists and naturalists that there is no lawgiver behind these natural laws.

What does it actually demonstrate regarding how these laws came to be? It is presupposed then the naturalistic worldview builds its premises to fit. The abnomities as pushed aside.

Why would a mindless process be sustainable and why do we have this uniformity in nature? Make sense of why mindless processes sustain anything. Again, you assume they can. 


Please demonstrate how you came up with intent.
I look at the unlikelihood of the contrary (many would say the impossibility of the contrary, but I'm watering it down so you don't flip out). Try on a practical level rolling the same number repeatedly on a dice a million or a billion times. Now try fixing the dice so that the numerical results (intentional). Which is more likely in sustaining the same number - you intentionally fixing the dice or by them spontaneously turning us that number. Van Til put it this way:

"If the way in which people reason and interpret evidence is determined by their presupposed worldviews, and if the worldviews of the believer and unbeliever are in principle completely at odds with each other, how can the disagreement between them over the justification of Biblical claims be resolved? It might seem that all rational argumentation is precluded since appeals to evidence and logic will be controlled by the respective, conflicting worldviews of the believer and unbeliever. However this is not the case.

Differing worldviews can be compared to each other in terms of the important philosophical question about the "preconditions of intelligibility" for such important assumptions as the universality of logical laws, the uniformity of nature, and the reality of moral absolutes. We can examine a worldview and ask whether its portrayal of nature, man, knowledge, etc. provide an outlook in terms of which logic, science and ethics can make sense. It does not comport with the practices of natural science to believe that all events are random and unpredictable, for instance. It does not comport with the demand for honesty in scientific research, if no moral principle expresses anything but a personal preference or feeling. Moreover, if there are internal contradictions in a person's worldview, it does not provide the preconditions for making sense out of man's experience. For instance, if one's political dogmas respect the dignity of men to make their own choices, while one's psychological theories reject the free will of men, then there is an internal defect in that person's worldview.
It is the Christian's contention that all non-Christian worldviews are beset with internal contradictions, as well as with beliefs which do not render logic, science or ethics intelligible. On the other hand, the Christian worldview (taken from God's self-revelation in Scripture) demands our intellectual commitment because it does provide the preconditions of intelligibility for man's reasoning, experience, and dignity."

THEN DEMONSTRATE IT WAS JESUS. Good grief man. 


I can give you good reasons but you are not open. What you do with the reasons it is another matter. Right now I am banging my head against a wall in dialogue with you because your worldview opposes Christianity and you are not willing to listen. 

First, do you believe it reasonable to believe Jesus wrote about in the NT was a historical person?    


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@WisdomofAges
The ABRAHAMIC GODS are a JOKE...used to incite FEAR - INTIMIDATION - VIOLENCE all 3 are human INVENTIONS and are WORTHLESS..


..........The TRUTH revealed.....but YOU ......PGA2.0................can't handle the TRUTH..........your BRAIN is saturated with BIBLE VERSE VOMIT
and Church brainwashing DOGMA....YOU are a slave to a Comic Book Story HOAX....as children are when they are exposed to Santa Claus...
and become convinced they must OBEY the RULES in order to receive the GIFTS they DESIRE...this FORMULA for HYPNOSIS PSYCHOSIS
to accept what is told to them as FACT...is eventually understood by the child as a CLEVER HOAX....to teach them how to OBEY and be rewarded
for doing so....it's a simple technique = OBEY or be PUNISHED and SUFFER....this is the foundation of the JEW - JESUS - ALLAH GOD garbage

This FORMULA of OBEY or be PUNISHED is used by the Middle East JEW - JESUS - ALLAH Parasite VAMPIRE preachers who act like a GOD and through clever MIND CONTROL STRATEGIES dumb down the children and adults to accept their asinine GOD - Bible / Koran / Torah Comic Book VOMIT as an absolute TRUTH....

Why then are 3 GODS needed ?  3 GODS remain from the thousands before them invented and worshipped in the middle East ?  

and what of all the other GODS humans invented and worship around the world in the PAST and PRESENT TIMES ?   

Oh RIGHT, according to the pathetic BRAINWASHED and DUMBED DOWN ......PGA2.0.......who is incapable of independent thought and reasoning
all must accept his / her ? idiotic version of some comic Book Bible VOMIT and the GOD attached to it or forever be WRONG and CONDEMNED to
HELL !   what a FOOL.....to believe this horrifically childish and OBSOLETE Cartoon GOD character = JEW - JESUS - ALLAH invented by old men
in a long gone and absurdly IGNORANT era of humanity...whose only purpose was to assimilate and enslave weak minded humans int some idiotic CULT
so the old men could play GOD with them !   what a JOKE....

the ABRAHAMIC Jew - Jesus - Allah GOD hoaxes PROVE beyond any doubt how TRULY STUPID the masses of humanity are...so easily manipulated into slavery and servitude of an invisible SUPER BEING who itself is to FCKG LAZY to actually show up and guide its own idiotic
human creation from exterminating itself !   because his own creation does not believe he exist so they create other GODS ....!

Like,       HEY Joe...YOUR GOD SUCKS...let's create a new GOD and call it  BETTY .....OK Joe said....and then we can go back to KINDERGARTEN
class and make all the other kids OBEY our NEW GOD...BETTY !   or else we will tell them they will be expelled from school if they don't accept....
...COOL !  Joe said.....now I to can PLAY GOD and make the other kids OBEY ME...because I am BETTY's Prophet...!   Prophet Joe in the name
of "GOD BETTY" all must OBEY....Kneel for BETTY...beg for forgiveness...for YOU have SINNED and "BETTY" is angry with YOU....repent...
CONFESS your CRIME of even existing as a SINNER...now fall on the floor and shake for "GOD BETTY"  to prove your loyalty....then OBEY me
PROPHET JOE....for only I am the speaker of GOD BETTY....all rise...and bow to me Prophet JOE....your guide and MASTER to all things "BETTY"

OBEY....or be PUNISHED and SUFFER....so says "GOD BETTY" and I Prophet Jow will carry out all punishment...as it is written in the NEWER
TESTAMENT.....the word of "GOD BETTY"  the BETTY BIBLE....all kneel and thank Lord "BETTY" for this gift...the BETTY BIBLE" of verse VOMIT
for all to LIVE and DIE by.....

..........The Abrahamic GOD garbage is nothing more than a TROJAN HORSE PLOY used to assimilate truly STUPID humans into slavery of some 
idiotic JEW - JESUS - ALLAH GOD invented CULT .....truly the HELL on this EARTH these Parasite VAMPIRES are who fabricated this 3 GOD 
garbage hoax and the idiots that are HYPNOTIZED and FOLLOW this crap to their GRAVES...

A mad rave that makes me wonder how you could be taken as credible. 
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#898
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@PGA2.0
Intentionality is only possible with conscious being. The biblical God is revealed as such a Being. A rock lacks intention. It can't plan or purpose anything. It has no agency to do so. With evolution, there is no intent for anything to survive. It just happens. We deem those who do survive and pass on their genes the strong and fit yet it is not the purpose of evolution for this to happen. The Big Bang did not have the intent to bring the universe into existence. With a materialistic worldview, the universe just happened. There is no intent to sustain itself. It just happens. Go figure?
This is not any attempt to demonstrate intent. Saying a rock lacks intention is something I agree with you on, then describing your take on evolution and the big bang is just dodging the question. Can you or can you not DEMONSTRATE INTENT in the universe as it is? If the answer is no, just say no. Demonstrating intent would look like "I know the universe is built specifically to accomplish [THIS PURPOSE], because [EVIDENCE]." If the answer is you don't know what it's built to accomplish, then I have to wonder how you come by INTENT honestly. I've asked this of you before and you never answered: what is the INTENT of crashing the Andromeda Galaxy in the Milky Way in hundreds of millions of years? It's going to happen, mathematically. We won't be here to see it happen (I mean humans). What's the intent of the design then? What makes more sense: that it was designed to happen, to rip two galaxies consisting of hundreds of billions of stars and planets to shreds by smashing them together, when no human will ever be around to see it...or that it's just going to happen regardless because that's how gravity, momentum and a bunch of other invisible equations work?

"Laws" generally speaking, have a lawgiver yet it is assumed (and presupposed) by most materialists and naturalists that there is no lawgiver behind these natural laws.

What does it actually demonstrate regarding how these laws came to be? It is presupposed then the naturalistic worldview builds its premises to fit. The abnomities as pushed aside.

Why would a mindless process be sustainable and why do we have this uniformity in nature? Make sense of why mindless processes sustain anything. Again, you assume they can. 

I'm not going to explain what presupposition is, again. Your ridiculous 'et tu quoque" aside, starting at a neutral position is NOT the same as presupposing a magic being. I don't know why the universe's laws sustain as they do. I just know they do, otherwise we woudln't be here. You have not 'made sense' of their sustaining, either. I still don't know what "make sense of" means, and I think you don't either. You're not making sense of it. You're assigning an unseen, undemonstrable cause. I've even asked you to demonstrate what you think 'making sense' of it means. You don't. 

I look at the unlikelihood of the contrary (many would say the impossibility of the contrary, but I'm watering it down so you don't flip out).
Ladies and gentlemen, I present the classic argument from personal incredulity. 
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@PGA2.0
Again, it was a teaching of the Mosaic Covenant and it was used by God to teach ancient Israel (who lived in a different culture and times) some important truths that God is holy and they should be true in their relationship to Him. He demonstrates sin has consequences. 

So then the moral code prescribed in the bible is NOT unchanging. It applies differently across time. TOday, for example, it's not okay to stone someone. Back then, you think it was okay. Or at least you'd have said it was moral. 

Why was a woman stoned to death? It was for unfaithfulness and sexual promiscuity. 
But the penalty WAS okay then. Not okay now. Right? Again, this is a change in the moral code: we see it as immoral today to stone a woman who sleeps with someone out of wedlock to death today. Are you saying WE'RE IN THE WRONG NOW and these women should be stoned?

The penalty of sin is death by whatever means decreed. We all die physically. Israel was a theocracy. They lived under God's rules that He purposed for the culture they lived in. They are also an example and instruction to us regarding His holiness and presence.  
Yes or no: is it ever okay to kill another person according to the ten commandments. "For the culture they lived in" once AGAIN undermines your contention that the biblical moral code is good for all time, all people, all culture. 

They are both sinful but taking God's name in vain, IMO, is showing much more disrespect for your Maker since the first command is to worship God and serve only Him. Loving God and following His commands (in a perfect world) would not result in rape or any other sin.  
You really think raping someone is a morally superior act to saying "god damn you" to the person who raped you?? Raping an ACTUAL PERSON? I want to give you a chance to retract this inanity. PLEASE rethink your stance here. It's ludicrous. 

Not in God's sight. Again, you misunderstand ANE culture and the biblical standard. What Israel did and what God commanded are not always the same. 
Have you read the book of NUmbers? 31:18: "Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves." How about Exodus 21:17? "And if a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as the menservants do." 
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First, do you believe it reasonable to believe Jesus wrote about in the NT was a historical person? 

If you're talking about someone named Jesus who was a rabbi around the time of Roman occupation, it's reasonable. If you're talking about miracle working Jesus as described in the bible, unreasonable. There is no evidence for miracle working Jesus. I only answer this so you can't say I don't answer your questions.