A classic: From creator god ==> Specific God

Author: ludofl3x

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#1
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I haven't seen this one here, and this place could use a couple of new topics. Unfortunately it seems like there are less theists here than atheists, so I'm not sure about the traffic this place will get. Here we go:

Let's say we take for granted that the universe is here as it is not because of any natural reaction or coincidence, but instead that it was created by a thinking agent. There is no real rational reason for granting this, at least none I've ever seen argued convincingly here or elsewhere, but let's skip that part, I'm saying, as an olive branch to the believer. It doesn't matter, then, if you subscribe to a big bang cosmology BUT it was started by a thinking agent, or if you think the world was created 10000 years ago. What I'm curious about is how does one justify going from "creator" to any god with a capital G. How, essentially, can you convince someone else that your version of the creator is correct, and by extension your religion is the right one, and theirs is INcorrect, and therefore the wrong one? 



#2
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@ludofl3x
Unfortunately it seems like there are less theists here than atheists, so I'm not sure about the traffic this place will get. Here we go:
Fewer theists.

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Thanks Stannis.
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@ludofl3x
Not all theists believe a "God" created the universe. Some myths give a creation gods name so that would be where, this "God" created the universe came from. I personally don't care if you agree with me or not. As long as I am not teaching my belief as science people can fuck off. 
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Yeah, I guess this doesn't apply to people who believe in all gods. 
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@ludofl3x
If you were to walk into an Orthodox Church and express your desire to become Orthodox, they would make you a catechuman. You would be educated about the faith during this period. They wouldn't just baptize you on the spot. It is important. that you have understanding.

I know someone who has been a catechuman for 3 years.

So what is my point? 


I can not exhaustively educate you about my faith. If you really wanted to learn, it would take an active effort on your part, a real desire to understand. If you don't understand something or you are struggling with something, that is one thing.. but adopting an attitude of skepticism is like trying to swim upstream. It is actually counterproductive towards understanding. 

Really, and for the whole thing to click, you have to accept several things that are related to the revealing. It is really easy to get hung up on one thing that would be clarified in understanding other things.


I am an Orthodox Christian. Because I cannot exhaustively explain my faith, I break it down to the very simplest fundamentals. I can demystify things to an extent. To another extent, I can't, because mysteries are to be experienced, not solved.


The Ultimate Reality is God.

We worship God in Spirit and in Truth.

The Trinity is something to be lived and experienced, not something to be intellectualized. To simply grasp these things on a mental level is like looking at a shadow of the real thing.

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#7
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@Mopac
SO, all that is to say you do not have any path from creator to your version of god, right? You are just taking what one set of rules says is true as true, by your a=own admission eschewing intellectualizing about it in any way. Adopting an attitude of skepticism is how we've made every advance in science there ever was. If we weren't skeptics, then we'd still believe the earth was flat, the sun revolved around it, and there were three planets. There's no reason to explore if you believe you know what's there already. I didn't ask you for an exhaustive profession of faith. I asked you how you got from creator of the universe to your specific version of whatever god you believe in. 

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@Mopac
Ludo is not talking about your religion specifically.

The question he raises is that if it could be proven that a god created the universe, how could we determine if that god was YHWH, Brahma or Thor? 
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Let me help you narrow it down some. No Norse god claims to have created the universe. So Thor is right out. Actually the Roman/ Greek gods don't claim to have a creator of the universe but the Egyptians do. Most creation myth are centered on a planet or two. 
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@ludofl3x
That isn't what I am saying at all.

The Ultimate Reality is not creation. It is God no matter what anybody says. No one can undermine that.

I challenge you to find any god greater, because you won't.  There is none. 



Now if you wanted to understand my religion it would take a great deal more time and cooperation. Since you will not afford me this, I can sum it up as sincerity of faith and charity.


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#11
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@Mopac
That isn't what I am saying at all.

Cool. Then show us the decision tree that leads you from 'amorphous consciousness that designed and created all there is' to 'character from the bible.' That's what I'm asking. I'm starting to think maybe you can't do it. 

The Ultimate Reality is not creation. It is God no matter what anybody says. No one can undermine that.
Sounds like we're really in for a great discussion: I will believe this no matter what anyone says!!! Come on, if you're not going to participate, then just don't post. 
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@keithprosser
The Ultimate Reality is God, and there is no other.

That is the God we acknowledge.

The name that can be named is not the eternal name. The Holiest Name is not one pronounced with words. Getting confused by names is easy. The godless always want to make God a construct. That is easier to deny than The Truth.


You want to know the name of God? The Ultimate Reality. What that truly is, that is God. 





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@Polytheist-Witch
Agreed - it wasn't Thor!   The Edda relates:

Who is foremost, or oldest, of all the gods?" Hárr answered: "He is called in our speech Allfather, but in the Elder Ásgard he had twelve names: one is Allfather; the second is Lord, or Lord of Hosts; the third is Nikarr, or Spear-Lord; the fourth is Nikudr, or Striker; the fifth is Knower of Many Things; the sixth, Fulfiller of Wishes; the seventh, Far-Speaking One; the eighth, The Shaker, or He that Putteth the Armies to Flight; the ninth, The Burner; the tenth, The Destroyer; the eleventh, The Protector; the twelfth, Gelding."

Then asked Gangleri: "Where is this god, or what power hath he, or what hath he wrought that is a glorious deed?" Hárr made answer: "He lives throughout all ages and governs all his realm, and directs all things, great and small." Then said Jafnhárr: "He fashioned heaven and earth and air, and all things which are in them."

That leaves several hundred other candidates from Aten to Zeus!

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#14
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@keithprosser
Wow, that list of twelve names ended with a bit of a twist if you ask me. 
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@keithprosser
Nothing about the universe being created by Wodan in the Eddas. The clouds in the sky yes. Fucking idiot. And the Greek/ Roman gods do not have a creator of the universe. Fucking idiot. 

Edda: Voluspo

3. Of old was the age | when Ymir lived;
Sea nor cool waves | nor sand there were;
Earth had not been, | nor heaven above,
But a yawning gap, | and grass nowhere.4. Then Bur's sons lifted | the level land,
Mithgarth the mighty | there they made;
The sun from the south | warmed the stones of earth,
And green was the ground | with growing leeks.5. The sun, the sister | of the moon, from the south
Her right hand cast | over heaven's rim;
No knowledge she had | where her home should be,
The moon knew not | what might was his,
The stars knew not | where their stations were.

Oh look the yawning gap where the sun and moon were. Note the universe already exists. Fucking idiot. Wodan wasn't even the first being. Bestla and Borr were his parents. Not to mention Ymir and all the races who sprang from him before Borr emerged from the salt

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Odin lived as a female to learn seidr. It's female based magic. Homophobe. 
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@Polytheist-Witch
Never change, PW. I'm not sure how you got homophobia out of that, but as you were. I like how keith is a fucking idiot, but you apparently find a way to believe in all gods at all times, and magic. At least you and Christians share the same self awareness!
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@Polytheist-Witch
Nothing about the universe being created by Wodan in the Eddas.
You may have missed this line in what I quoted from the Prose Eddas in my post:

Then said Jafnhárr: "He [Allfather] fashioned heaven and earth and air, and all things which are in them."

(to non-norsemen: Allfather is traditionally identified with Odin/Wodan)

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@ludofl3x
I'm not sure how you got homophobia out of that, but as you were.
It's because you were disrespectful to Odin.

Odin 'lived as a woman' to learn norse magic (seidr), which was associated with women.  Hence Odin was sometimes taunted for being 'girly'.  But don't worry, I don't think Odin will strike you with a thunderbolt for impugning his manhood - he'll just hit you with his handbag.
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Cool. Then show us the decision tree that leads you from 'amorphous consciousness that designed and created all there is' to 'character from the bible.' That's what I'm asking. I'm starting to think maybe you can't do it.


You never thought I could do it to begin with. And you aren't really going to either. You hear "Ultimate Reality" and you think "amorphous consciousness that designed and created all there is"

Good sense and reason tells us that there can be no existence without Ultimate Reality. That is where everything comes from.




Sounds like we're really in for a great discussion: I will believe this no matter what anyone says!!! Come on, if you're not going to participate, then just don't post.

The Ultimate Reality is God, and I challenge you to find anything else worthier of being callled God. You can't, there is nothing greater. No amount of sophistry or mental gymnastics is going to override what is truly reality.

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Good sense and reason
Tells us that all Gods are the creation of ignorant, primitive, superstitious savages. Carry on.

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@Polytheist-Witch
How is observing that the last title was the same thing they call a castrated horse in any way homophobic? All I said was it ended with a twist. I guess the total lack of a sense of humor or irony multiplies correlative to however many gods you believe in. 
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#23
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@Mopac
Cool. Then show us the decision tree that leads you from 'amorphous consciousness that designed and created all there is' to 'character from the bible.' That's what I'm asking. I'm starting to think maybe you can't do it.


You never thought I could do it to begin with. And you aren't really going to either. You hear "Ultimate Reality" and you think "amorphous consciousness that designed and created all there is"

Good sense and reason tells us that there can be no existence without Ultimate Reality. That is where everything comes from.
No, I hear "Ultimate REality" and think that's a pointless term until you can demonstrate the functional difference between reality as it is and the Ultimate Reality. Watch:

Good sense and reason tells us that there can be no existence without reality. That is where everything exists from start to finish.

See? I say the exact same thing, and it make more sense without the modifier.

But let's not get sidetracked: can you get from "This universe was created by a thinking agent" to "and that agent is the god my religion believes in, to the exclusion of all others" (consideration added for poly's benefit). 

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@ludofl3x
Whatever makes you feel superior, bigot. 
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@keithprosser
I posted my response be stupid if you want to. 
#26
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@keithprosser
No it's because he is a fucking homophobe who thinks calling a guy gelling is "interesting" Fucking pigs. Odin doesn't use thunderbolt you stupid fucking tard. Stick to Christianity you moron. You at least butcher it on purpose. 
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@Polytheist-Witch
gelling
Not gelling, Gelding.  

It is mildly interesting that a god called 'Allfather' is also named 'Gelding' because geldings are noted for their lack of fathering potential!


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#28
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@Polytheist-Witch
@keithprosser
Is basically any disagreement or pushback on anything you post or think somehow associated with bigotry against that entire thing? There is zero sensible reason to accuse me of bigotry because I literally said it was interesting that the "allfather" of Norse mythology had a title that described a horse that's been castrated. I know you're a really angry and hateful person, which makes me wonder why you torture yourself with places like this. You seem to hate everyone here uniformly, believer or non believer. Maybe there's another hobby you might find more fulfilling. Also, wouldn't TRANSphobe be a more appropriate epithet to hurl? I don't see anything in that list of titles about Odin being gay. 

It is mildly interesting that a god called 'Allfather' is also named 'Gelding' because geldings are noted for their lack of fathering potential!

Keith, you are going to be joining me as history's greatest monster! HOW DARE YOU ILLUMINATE WHAT I FOUND INTERESTING SPECIFICALLY!!! How DARE you say anything about thunderbolts! WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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@ludofl3x

Odin doesn't use thunderbolt you stupid fucking tard.

How DARE you say anything about thunderbolts!
I am sure I specifically stated Odin did not use thunderbolts.
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@ludofl3x
No, I hear "Ultimate REality" and think that's a pointless term until you can demonstrate the functional difference between reality as it is and the Ultimate Reality. Watch:

Good sense and reason tells us that there can be no existence without reality. That is where everything exists from start to finish.

See? I say the exact same thing, and it make more sense without the modifier.


I just told you that The Ultimate Reality IS reality as it is, what, how many times?

Imagine for a moment I have a stable full of horses. I tell you, "The red horse runs fast!"
You could say, "The horse runs fast.", and it would make sense. But no, I am talking about a specific horse. The red horse.
In much the same way, when Insay "The Ultimate Reality", it is for the sake of pointing out specifically what it is that is meant by reality. It is reality that I was born of a woman. Am I talking about being born of a woman? No, I am not.

So what I would tell you is that just because you don't see the point to it doesn't mean that there is no point to it. There is. You not being able to see the point does not negate the point. If you have doubts, give the benefit of the doubt. Otherwise, we are not going to progress anywhere in this discussion.



But let's not get sidetracked: can you get from "This universe was created by a thinking agent" to "and that agent is the god my religion believes in, to the exclusion of all others" (consideration added for poly's benefit). 


The universe was created by The Ultimate Reality, and whatever The Ultimate Reality is, that is what it is. There is no other God, this is The One True God, and this is the God my religion believes in. 

What further proof do you need?