A classic: From creator god ==> Specific God

Author: ludofl3x

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@disgusted
In your everyday life do you try to make sense of existence by adopting particular positions? Sure you do. Those positions, your worldview, shape how you look at your existence. Obviously, that is true.
Don't ask me questions and then answer erroneously on my behalf. Your definition of true is what bounces around in your bonce and that is a piss poor definition indeed, it only works in your world of delusion.
It is not me who is delusional but you. You are in denial. You show how much you care about what you believe by constantly shouting down the Christian worldview as wrong and erroneous. You constantly go out of your way to engage in this topic which shows how much you care about it. 

Your worldview, as does every worldview, attempts to understand why you are here and supply the meaning.
Wrong again.
If that is the case you are a fool. You speak of things you do not understand. The very fact that you choose to engage and the vitriol you show by your constant ad Hom attacks shows the contrary to what you state. 

For an atheist, your existence is explained in a limited way by natural unintelligent random processes.
For an atheist, as for everyone, my existence is explained by my existence. That existence is limited in a cosmic sense but I'll enjoy it for time I have it.
Your existence is not explained by your existence. That is a tautology. It says nothing. Somehow you got here. Somehow you are. 

There is no ultimate meaning
Finally you've told the truth. We are born we live and we die, just like every other animal that has ever and will ever exist on this planet.
First, this is oversimplified. If this life did not matter why are you being so inconsistent and making it matter by arguing with me? Holding to your worldview it just doesn't matter yet you fight tooth and nail to make your particular belief matter. 

You make meaning for the protection of your existence and hope others buy into that meaning because it means you live longer, so existence is important.
You prove with every word you write that you live in delusion and know ABSOLUTELY nothing about me. Why would I want to live longer, dead sounds alright.
Because you continue to exist leads me to believe you want to live longer, and I'm glad of that! Maybe one day you will be led to the truth of your existence and I wish you well in that respect.

But without an absolute, unchanging best, a fixed and ultimate standard
Your fixed and ultimate standard partakes in infanticide, genocide, childrape, human sacrifice and slavery, my self appointed standards are parsecs better than that so I don't know why you keep claiming superiority. An argument could be made that Hitler had a higher moral standard than yours.
Gods are the creation of human imagination, don't be scared you won't even know you are dead.

Again, your paragraph is loaded with meaning that betrays your beliefs. If there is no ultimate standard and measure what does it matter, yet you fight tooth and nail to make it matter. You are a walking contradiction and are inconsistent with a non-Christian worldview.

The question is if there is no ultimate fixed standard and measure then why yours is any "better" than any other, as you claim. I do not see it that way. If everything is relative then your belief is no better than any other relative belief. Your arrogance is what wars are fought over. Also, you state the argument could be made that Hitler had a higher moral standard than mine, but in relation to what? Do you just arbitrarily give meaning to morality and that becomes the ultimate standard that you claim does not exist? Your meaning is just your feelings and I do not recognize your feelings as any better than that of a toad if there is no ultimate standard and reference point. Your overbearing and presumptuous claims mean nothing if everything is relative. What you believe not better than the Christian worldview. Also, you betray what you really believe because you make such a big issue over genocide, child rape, human sacrifice, and slavery when what does it matter if there is no ultimate standard? Your standard becomes just another drop in the myriad of personal beliefs that is no better or worse than any other in a relative world of shifting standards.  
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@PGA2.0
I made a general statement about worldviews and then I got specific about yours. I say generally because it is irrelevant to someone who has not thought about their existence or does not care. You seem to be in the camp that says they don't care, yet even your words betray that sentiment as I will point out below. 

You made a general statement and erroneously attempted to apply it to me, someone you know absolutely nothing about, you fail. Your second sentence is you trying to pigeon hole me into your erroneous generalisation when you know nothing about me. I am not in a camp and you never got around to supplying my sentiment.
An entire paragraph about what you think of me and not a word about what I write, in your absurd paradigm you would call that ad hom.

Your worldview is not the majority one
Will you just look at that profound nonsense, my worldview is my worldview and not anyone elses, still generalising ad homs.

Generally speaking
Been there got the T shirt.

Here again, your words betray what you state previously and even those words are loaded with meaning ("what could I possibly care about that"). There is a difference between what you could and what you do believe about existence.

My words betray what I have previously said, at least I'm not a hypocrite like some others here. As you pointed out so comically I've said before that my existence is undeniably a result of my existence.

The fact is you have stated you don't know, you doubt you would care, and then you appear to care since you add the words "very much." So, your whole sentence is pregnant with doubt and inconsistency. On the one hand, you imply and deny that you care and then on the other you add the caveat emptor "care very much."
It's actually incredibly straight forward. I would need to be in that situation to give an honest (look that word up) answer but I don't think I'd care very much after all I have to die sometime, unlike you and your godist mates I have no fear death, I even recognise it's reality.

You also might like to look up caveat emptor.
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It is not me who is delusional but you. You are in denial. You show how much you care about what you believe by constantly shouting down the Christian worldview as wrong and erroneous. You constantly go out of your way to engage in this topic which shows how much you care about it. 
I deny that all of the gods created by man, and that is all proposed gods, exist. You can classify that as denial, unfortunately it's truth. What is it that I neglect in order that go out of my way to engage in this topic. Typing a few words on a keyboard is not going out of my way, if it is for you then you have my pity.
Another entire paragraph attacking me and not anything I've written.

If that is the case you are a fool. You speak of things you do not understand. The very fact that you choose to engage and the vitriol you show by your constant ad Hom attacks shows the contrary to what you state. 

Look up ad hom and then read your paragraph. I mean really!

Your existence is not explained by your existence. That is a tautology. It says nothing. Somehow you got here. Somehow you are. 
Without my existence I would not exist, I was born and I am. That seems to be a concept beyond comprehension.

First, this is oversimplified. If this life did not matter why are you being so inconsistent and making it matter by arguing with me? Holding to your worldview it just doesn't matter yet you fight tooth and nail to make your particular belief matter. 
Your delusion goes much deeper than I thought if you believe that arguing with you gives my life any meaning and that I'm somehow fighting tooth for a worldview that I have never expounded upon and that you have never the less assigned me. Do try to be even a little honest.

Because you continue to exist leads me to believe you want to live longer, and I'm glad of that! Maybe one day you will be led to the truth of your existence and I wish you well in that respect.

I exist until I don't and my continued existence doesn't rely on what I want, you seem confused bout this. I have the truth, we live and we die, I'm sorry you will never understand that truth.

Your ultimate fixed standard places genocide, child rape, human sacrifice, infanticide and slavery on the GOOD side of the moral ledger they are nothing of the sort.
You and your disgusting version of morality is what is wrong with this world.
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@disgusted
I made a general statement about worldviews and then I got specific about yours. I say generally because it is irrelevant to someone who has not thought about their existence or does not care. You seem to be in the camp that says they don't care, yet even your words betray that sentiment as I will point out below. 

You made a general statement and erroneously attempted to apply it to me, someone you know absolutely nothing about, you fail.
If you think along the lines of naturalism/materialism which would be the automatic default if you do not believe in God or a personal creator then that worldview has a distinct way of understanding why you exist. If you haven't thought about it you are ignorant or in denial of the explanation. Nevertheless, the naturalistic/materialistic worldview has a particular way of looking at life's ultimate questions. Not bothering to look at the deep questions of life by examining your existence is something you should think about if you are going to participate in a debate forum about the existence of a specific God because denying such a Being brings up the question of another explanation which you struggle to or are incapable of giving.

Your second sentence is you trying to pigeon hole me into your erroneous generalisation when you know nothing about me. I am not in a camp and you never got around to supplying my sentiment.
I know enough about you to understand that you are very angry and in opposition to the Christian God. That is the sentiment you express in most of your posts. 

An entire paragraph about what you think of me and not a word about what I write, in your absurd paradigm you would call that ad hom.
I already expressed what I thought and you sidetracked the conversation to personally attack the person (me) instead of the argument (which you manage to do in the majority of our exchanges, which is why I seldom answer your posts). 


Your worldview is not the majority one
Will you just look at that profound nonsense, my worldview is my worldview and not anyone elses, still generalising ad homs.
Again, please supply the rest of the context. You have a habit of cutting it short to misdirect posts. You started the ad homs.


Generally speaking
Been there got the T shirt.

Here again, your words betray what you state previously and even those words are loaded with meaning ("what could I possibly care about that"). There is a difference between what you could and what you do believe about existence.

My words betray what I have previously said, at least I'm not a hypocrite like some others here. As you pointed out so comically I've said before that my existence is undeniably a result of my existence.
Your exitence is a result of your existence? What does that mean?

You are not the cause of your existence or else you would have self-created yourself which is a logical impossibility or you would have always existed which is not plausible. No, something or Someone else was responsible for your existence however much you want to deny this and avoid the issue. Logically, there are only a couple of likely scenarios which you fail to face up to. Until you are willing to discuss this we are at an impact and stalemate to a productive dialog (which is usually my experience whenever I answer your posts) and the conversation is not worth pursuing further.  


The fact is you have stated you don't know, you doubt you would care, and then you appear to care since you add the words "very much." So, your whole sentence is pregnant with doubt and inconsistency. On the one hand, you imply and deny that you care and then on the other you add the caveat emptor "care very much."
It's actually incredibly straight forward. I would need to be in that situation to give an honest (look that word up) answer but I don't think I'd care very much after all I have to die sometime, unlike you and your godist mates I have no fear death, I even recognise it's reality.
Again, there is doubt in your wording which signifies or suggests a contradiction in what you are saying about not caring because of your lack of surety and conviction. 


You also might like to look up caveat emptor.


It means "let the buyer beware" or "sold as is" and your words betray what you really think and I'm alerting anyone else who wants to buy into your self-deception.
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@disgusted
It is not me who is delusional but you. You are in denial. You show how much you care about what you believe by constantly shouting down the Christian worldview as wrong and erroneous. You constantly go out of your way to engage in this topic which shows how much you care about it. 
I deny that all of the gods created by man, and that is all proposed gods, exist.
If you deny God then you must have another explanation for your existence or else you are speaking out of ignorance and have not examined what is reasonable and likey. Which is it?

So, I will ask you again, what explanation do you have for why you (humanity) are/is here (the origins of your/humanities existence)?

You can classify that as denial, unfortunately it's truth. What is it that I neglect in order that go out of my way to engage in this topic. Typing a few words on a keyboard is not going out of my way, if it is for you then you have my pity.
Another entire paragraph attacking me and not anything I've written.
You were the one who started the ad homs, remember that. It seems to me by your replies that these personal attacks are the only types of conversation you capable of demonstrating.


If that is the case you are a fool. You speak of things you do not understand. The very fact that you choose to engage and the vitriol you show by your constant ad Hom attacks shows the contrary to what you state. 

Look up ad hom and then read your paragraph. I mean really!
If you have not thought of why you exist other than to say you exist because you exist you are ignorant or foolish in regard to my underlined proposition in Post # 930. I'm pointing out to you that a fool comes to a gunfight with only his fists.

What I have said about your vitriol stands. I think many others would reiterate that you constantly use ad homs instead of addressing the arguments. 


Your existence is not explained by your existence. That is a tautology. It says nothing. Somehow you got here. Somehow you are. 
Without my existence I would not exist, I was born and I am. That seems to be a concept beyond comprehension. 
There has to be some reason how you got here (origins). What is it? 


First, this is oversimplified. If this life did not matter why are you being so inconsistent and making it matter by arguing with me? Holding to your worldview it just doesn't matter yet you fight tooth and nail to make your particular belief matter. 
Your delusion goes much deeper than I thought if you believe that arguing with you gives my life any meaning and that I'm somehow fighting tooth for a worldview that I have never expounded upon and that you have never the less assigned me. Do try to be even a little honest.
If it did not matter to you then why do you continually engage in and respond to my posts? You care enough to take the time. You take the time to dispute the reasons I give for meaning yet you are so petrified to disclose anything about your worldview yet it comes out in your opposition. 


Because you continue to exist leads me to believe you want to live longer, and I'm glad of that! Maybe one day you will be led to the truth of your existence and I wish you well in that respect.

I exist until I don't and my continued existence doesn't rely on what I want, you seem confused bout this.

Your existence does not explain why you are here. You continue to reply, "I am here because I am here."

There is a reason for origins. If you don't know what that reason is (ignorance) or have a logical explanation then you cannot rationally deny God as that reason.


I have the truth, we live and we die, I'm sorry you will never understand that truth.
I understand we live and die, so your statement is false and misleading as usual. 


Your ultimate fixed standard places genocide, child rape, human sacrifice, infanticide and slavery on the GOOD side of the moral ledger they are nothing of the sort.
No, it does not. You again misrepresent my position because you are ignorant of it. I have laid it out in previous posts and no one challenged it. Instead, they relied on their standard group-think responses and talking points. 

You and your disgusting version of morality is what is wrong with this world.


Wrong again. I hold onto that which is good and right and I challenge "your version" of morality as being able to explain the moral (for the truth about morality is narrow and does not change). 
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I define slavery as owning people as property. The bible gives provisions to do just that. It doesn't matter what word the bible uses if the definition is owning people as property that is slavery definitionally.
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@secularmerlin
I define slavery as owning people as property. The bible gives provisions to do just that. It doesn't matter what word the bible uses if the definition is owning people as property that is slavery definitionally.
Well stated.

Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ. [LINK]
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@secularmerlin
I define slavery as owning people as property.

First, there is a difference between a slave and an indentured servant. The principle of indentured servants of biblical times could apply in a similar way to the employer/employee relationship. 


Second, slavery was a common practice in the ANE. 


Third, Isreal was not permitted by God to treat those captured by warfare in the same manner of how they had been treated and exploited in Egypt. That was like chattel slavery in which the person was treated in a harsh and sub-human level. 

Fourth, slavery teaches a lesson. There is a biblical spiritual lesson to be learned from slavery in several ways. 

***

The bible gives provisions to do just that.

The OT does, but not in the same way as practiced in many ANE cultures, such as the one they came from (Egypt).

Exodus 1:14 They made their lives bitter with harsh labor in brick and mortar and with all kinds of work in the fields; in all their harsh labor the Egyptians worked them ruthlessly.

Exodus 2:23 During that long period, the king of Egypt died. The Israelites groaned in their slavery and cried out, and their cry for help because of their slavery went up to God.

Exodus 3:9 And now the cry of the Israelites has reached me, and I have seen the way the Egyptians are oppressing them.

Exodus 6:6 “Therefore, say to the Israelites: ‘I am the Lord, and I will bring you out from under the yoke of the Egyptians. I will free you from being slaves to them, and I will redeem you with an outstretched arm and with mighty acts of judgment.

And now the clincher:

Exodus 22:21 “Do not mistreat or oppress a foreigner, for you were foreigners in Egypt.

Exodus 23:9 “Do not oppress a foreigner; you yourselves know how it feels to be foreigners, because you were foreigners in Egypt.

Leviticus 18:3 You must not do as they do in Egypt, where you used to live, and you must not do as they do in the land of Canaan, where I am bringing you. Do not follow their practices.

Leviticus 19:34 The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the Lord your God.

Leviticus 25:42 Because the Israelites are my servants, whom I brought out of Egypt, they must not be sold as slaves.

Leviticus 15:12-18
12 If any of your people—Hebrew men or women—sell themselves to you and serve you six years, in the seventh year you must let them go free. 13 And when you release them, do not send them away empty-handed. 14 Supply them liberally from your flock, your threshing floor and your winepress. Give to them as the Lord your God has blessed you. 15 Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and the Lord your God redeemed you. That is why I give you this command today.

16 But if your servant says to you, “I do not want to leave you,” because he loves you and your family and is well off with you, 17 then take an awl and push it through his earlobe into the door, and he will become your servant for life. Do the same for your female servant.

18 Do not consider it a hardship to set your servant free, because their service to you these six years has been worth twice as much as that of a hired hand. And the Lord your God will bless you in everything you do.

So, the type of biblical slavery is different from the bondage and oppression practiced by other ANE cultures. Those taken into an Israeli family were to be treated with dignity and respect. That may not have happened in practice, but the Lord God expected it.


It doesn't matter what word the bible uses if the definition is owning people as property that is slavery definitionally.

Slavery teaches a lesson. You, too, are a slave to whatever controls and owns you. 


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Leviticus 19:34 The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the Lord your God.
This sounds an awful lot like "open borders"...

Mr. DJT, tear down this wall.
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First, there is a difference between a slave and an indentured servant. 

Agreed. You own a slave as property which is the situation described in leviticus.

Second, slavery was a common practice 

Which has no bearing whatever on how moral the practice is.

Third, Isreal was not permitted by God to treat those captured by warfare in the same manner of how they had been treated and exploited in Egypt. 

There is no archaeological evidence to support the idea that Hebrews were kept as slaves in Egypt thpug h there is ample evidence however that the Babylonian did. In any case you would have to demonstrate the existence of some god(s) begore you claim that any god(s) permitted anything so really it us what the hebrews permitted themselves to do and what was being permitted was owning people as property.
It is the owning people as property that I find objectionable and no matter how you try to spin this the bible specifically allows this practice

Fourth, slavery teaches a lesson. There is a biblical spiritual lesson to be learned from slavery in several ways. 

Unless you have been a slave you are making a rather large assumption and unless you are willing to submit yourself and your children to become slaves you either think there are other ways to learn said lesson or you do not think it is worth learning.
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Leviticus 19:34 The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the Lord your God. 
This sounds an awful lot like "open borders"...

Mr. DJT, tear down this wall.

Open borders on the Southern US border is an idiot concept, IMHO.

President Trump wants to build walls in the southern states of America to lessen illegal drug traffic, trafficking, MS13, and illegal aliens.

There were walls built around cities and towns in biblical/ancient Israel to protect the people.

Isreal today has used walls/fences effectively in controlling the terrorism from Gaza.

The Great Wall of China has proven effective in protecting the Chinese for centuries.  Many nations use fences along the border of their countries to deter and lessen illegal activity. It makes sense (something your Democrat Party lacks on most issues).

Nehemiah 1:1-3 (NASB)
The words of Nehemiah the son of Hacaliah.
Now it happened in the month Chislev, in the twentieth year, while I was in Susa the capital, that Hanani, one of my brothers, and some men from Judah came; and I asked them concerning the Jews who had escaped and had survived the captivity, and about Jerusalem. They said to me, “The remnant there in the province who survived the captivity are in great distress and reproach, and the wall of Jerusalem is broken down and its gates are burned with fire.


Nehemiah 2:17-18
17 Then I said to them, “You see the bad situation we are in, that Jerusalem is desolate and its gates burned by fire. Come, let us rebuild the wall of Jerusalem so that we will no longer be a reproach.” 18 I told them how the hand of my God had been favorable to me and also about the king’s words which he had spoken to me. Then they said, “Let us arise and build.” So they put their hands to the good work.

Nehemiah 3
Now when Sanballat, Tobiah, the Arabs, the Ammonites and the Ashdodites heard that the repair of the walls of Jerusalem went on, and that the breaches began to be closed, they were very angry. All of them conspired together to come and fight against Jerusalem and to cause a disturbance in it.


The last two sentences I underlined sound like the Democrats.

Nehemiah 6:15-16
The Wall Is Finished
15 So the wall was completed on the twenty-fifth of the month Elul, in fifty-two days. 16 When all our enemies heard of it, and all the nations surrounding us saw it, they lost their confidence; for they recognized that this work had been accomplished with the help of our God. 

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Leviticus 19:34 The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the Lord your God. 
This sounds an awful lot like "amnesty for all U.S. residents"...

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Open borders on the Southern US border is an idiot concept, IMHO.

President Trump wants to build walls in the southern states of America to lessen illegal drug traffic, trafficking, MS13, and illegal aliens.

There were walls built around cities and towns in biblical/ancient Israel to protect the people.

Isreal today has used walls/fences effectively in controlling the terrorism from Gaza.

The Great Wall of China has proven effective in protecting the Chinese for centuries.  Many nations use fences along the border of their countries to deter and lessen illegal activity. It makes sense (something your Democrat Party lacks on most issues).

The alleged upstanding Christian shows his true colors of hatred of others and wanting to keep them out. PGA2.0, the new and improved anti-Christ.
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@3RU7AL
Leviticus 19:34 The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the Lord your God. 
This sounds an awful lot like "amnesty for all U.S. residents"...

Have you considered the rest of the context to find out how these foreigners were to be treated?


9 ‘Now when you reap the harvest of your land, you shall not reap to the very corners of your field, nor shall you gather the gleanings of your harvest. 10 Nor shall you glean your vineyard, nor shall you gather the fallen fruit of your vineyard; you shall leave them for the needy and for the stranger. I am the Lord your God.
11 ‘You shall not steal, nor deal falsely, nor lie to one another. 12 You shall not swear falsely by My name, so as to profane the name of your God; I am the Lord.
13 ‘You shall not oppress your neighbor, nor rob him. The wages of a hired man are not to remain with you all night until morning. 14 You shall not curse a deaf man, nor place a stumbling block before the blind, but you shall revere your God; I am the Lord.
15 ‘You shall do no injustice in judgment; you shall not be partial to the poor nor defer to the great, but you are to judge your neighbor fairly.16 You shall not go about as a slanderer among your people, and you are not to act against the life of your neighbor; I am the Lord.
17 ‘You shall not hate your fellow countryman in your heart; you may surely reprove your neighbor, but shall not incur sin because of him.18 You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the sons of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself; I am the Lord.

33 ‘When a stranger resides with you in your land, you shall not do him wrong. 34 The stranger who resides with you shall be to you as the native among you, and you shall love him as yourself, for you were aliens in the land of Egypt; I am the Lord your God.
35 ‘You shall do no wrong in judgment, in measurement of weight, or capacity. 36 You shall have just balances, just weights, a just ephah, and a just hin; I am the Lord your God, who brought you out from the land of Egypt. 37 You shall thus observe all My statutes and all My ordinances and do them; I am the Lord.’”

So, the greater passage of Leviticus 19 is speaking of love and justice for the people and the foreigner is to be treated with the same love and justices used for the native-born. We do not live in an ANE culture in the West, but the same principles should be used by treating the foreigner as you would any native-born citizen with respect to love and justice. IF SOMEONE BREAKS THE LAW THEY SHOULD BE PUNISHED THE SAME WAY ANY NATIVE-BORN CITIZEN WOULD.


The law of justice in the USA is that a foreigner must come into the country legally.

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The law of justice in the USA is that a foreigner must come into the country legally. 
I love how you hide behind the law when it suits your mood.

What does The Jesus say about it?
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@3RU7AL
The law of justice in the USA is that a foreigner must come into the country legally. 
I love how you hide behind the law when it suits your mood.

What does The Jesus say about it?

I perceive you have no justifiable argument because you attack me rather than the argument. 
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@Goldtop
Open borders on the Southern US border is an idiot concept, IMHO. 

President Trump wants to build walls in the southern states of America to lessen illegal drug traffic, trafficking, MS13, and illegal aliens. 

There were walls built around cities and towns in biblical/ancient Israel to protect the people.

Isreal today has used walls/fences effectively in controlling the terrorism from Gaza.

The Great Wall of China has proven effective in protecting the Chinese for centuries.  Many nations use fences along the border of their countries to deter and lessen illegal activity. It makes sense (something your Democrat Party lacks on most issues).

The alleged upstanding Christian shows his true colors of hatred of others and wanting to keep them out. PGA2.0, the new and improved anti-Christ.

Again, this has nothing to do with the argument I gave and I see it as a cheap attack on me and a bankrupt exit from the issues you charged my Christian worldivew with. If this is all you have I'm not interested in responding further.  
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The law of justice in the USA is that a foreigner must come into the country legally.
One should never, ever confuse what is legal with what is just.  They should be the same, but they frequently aren't.

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@keithprosser
The law of justice in the USA is that a foreigner must come into the country legally.
One should never, ever confuse what is legal with what is just.  They should be the same, but they frequently aren't.
Hi Keith, I see you did not include my name in the "Receivers" (therefore I was not notified) so I take it this is an open response?

I agree with the underlined and it can be argued for legitimately, IMO, yet what is written into law in your country is being broken.

The question is what is unjust about not allowing people into your country unless they follow the laws of the land???

People are not allowed to enter your country illegally without being charged with breaking the law yet that is happening. They break your laws whether you think these laws are just or not. The Dems are impeding the laws of the land working. IMO, Dems refuse to fix them unless it benefits them and brings in more Democrat votes so I do not see them as looking out for the best interests of their people just themselves as per usual (anything to get elected). They are a party of groupthink and brainwashing of the mass media which they control because most in the mainstream media are educated by groupthink liberal Democrat universities.

Countries act sovereignly to govern themselves unless they are a puppet state. In a Democracy or Republic, it is up to the people to elect just representatives. In a socialist government of the big government, the masses are usually controlled by such a system as a dictatorship or oligarchy. In your system (USA) the problem, as I see it, is that most are not capable of thinking about what is just anymore because they have no fixed standard and measure for justice. It all becomes a matter of personal preference and opinion. Thus, Hitler's Germany (with such thinking) can be no better than the most desired place in the world to live. When personal taste instead of justice and righteousness is the standard we are in big trouble. When a big government and tyranny, dictatorship or an oligarchy controls the masses anything can happen.  

Even in ANE Israel, God expected the people of the land to live within a righteous system of justice and obey the covenant He made with them. Any foreigner coming into the land of Israel was responsible to live according to the laws of the land. Thus, you see over and over again where God lists their injustices and how they have unrighteously been influenced by foreigner nations and peoples in ways that are not just, even sinful and heinous. 

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@PGA2.0
If you live in Texas, say, and someone comes from Oregon or Ohio to do a job that is no problem, but if he or she comes from Mexico it is.   There are, I am sure, thieves and rapists in Oregon and honest hard working Mexicans, but the criterion is not what an individual is like but on the meaningless detail of their 'nationality'.

   
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@keithprosser
If you live in Texas, say, and someone comes from Oregon or Ohio to do a job that is no problem, but if he or she comes from Mexico it is.   There are, I am sure, thieves and rapists in Oregon and honest hard working Mexicans, but the criterion is not what an individual is like but on the meaningless detail of their 'nationality'.

It is not a problem if someone comes from Mexico as long as they enter and leave your country legally and are not criminals.

What is your problem with legal immigration or entry???
I asked you this in my last post and did not get an answer. (i.e., The question is what is unjust about not allowing people into your country unless they follow the laws of the land???)

Do you lock your doors at night? Will you let anyone freely enter and leave your house who you don't know?

Can you fly to England, or Turkey, or South Africa without a visa? Can you visit these countries without going through Customs and Immigration? What countries in the world can you do this besides the good old USA (or Canada)?

Can you (your country) afford to support the rest of the third world freeloading in your country (send them all to your sanctuary cities and States and see how they fare)? What does the debt load mean to your children and grandchildren? Can you afford the drug epidemic most of which is transported through your southern border? How many of these illegals have criminal records? How many are MS 13? What about the child and sex trafficking going on?   
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@PGA2.0
The question is what is unjust about not allowing people into your country unless they follow the laws of the land???)
Consider two people in Houston doing similar jobs and living similar sorts of ordinary lives.   One drove from new york to look for a job, one drove from Tijuana.  Neither commits any robberies or murders.   yet only one is subject to the threat of losing their livlihood and being deported.  Indeed the new yorker has considerable advanteges over the mexican. 

The only 'crime' the mexican commited was being born on the other side of a line on a map.   Is that justice, or is it about humanity's innate 'us and them' mentality?  

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@PGA2.0
I perceive you have no justifiable argument because you attack me rather than the argument. 
I perceive you have abandoned the spirit of the following scripture,

Leviticus 19:34 The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born [not deported]. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the Lord your God.
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@PGA2.0
Can you (your country) afford to support the rest of the third world freeloading in your country (send them all to your sanctuary cities and States and see how they fare)? What does the debt load mean to your children and grandchildren? Can you afford the drug epidemic most of which is transported through your southern border? How many of these illegals have criminal records? How many are MS 13? What about the child and sex trafficking going on? 
Notice that PGA can only contribute blatant lies to his hateful narrative of others he fears due to the hate mongering of his beloved Trump.
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@keithprosser
The question is what is unjust about not allowing people into your country unless they follow the laws of the land???)
Consider two people in Houston doing similar jobs and living similar sorts of ordinary lives.   One drove from new york to look for a job, one drove from Tijuana.  Neither commits any robberies or murders.   yet only one is subject to the threat of losing their livlihood and being deported.  Indeed the new yorker has considerable advanteges over the mexican.
So you are for open borders. Which countries in this world have open borders where anyone can come into the country without a passport or visa? Canada and the US border is one that I know of and that is only between Canadian and US citizens. The European Union is another example. You have to be a member of the European Union to qualify.

If you are a Brit or Turk you still need a passport and visa to enter the USA to my knowledge. 

You have again not answered any of my questions. 

Would you leave your doors open and permit anyone to come through your house without even knowing who they are?

Why are you pushing for allowing something that is illegal and lawbreaking to happen and how is that just? 

The only 'crime' the mexican commited was being born on the other side of a line on a map.
This is not true as reflected on the Southern border. The Mexican entered another country illegally. He/she did not follow the protocol for entering the USA. The USA is not against people entering their country legally, as long as they meet the legal requirements in doing so. From watching the TV show Border Security I believe that someone who has a criminal record cannot enter the USA or Canada without first proving they have not had a criminal conviction for a number of years. So, even with our open border between Canada and the USA, not everyone can enter either country with this liability. They have to prove they are upstanding citizens and have not violated the law for a number of years.

  Is that justice, or is it about humanity's innate 'us and them' mentality?   


It is unjust and against the law to enter the USA illegally. Even on the open USA Canada borders, you have to stop a Customs and Immigration and show you are a citizen of one of those two countries and state how long you will be visiting and your intentions. 

Is it just, let alone sensible to let anyone enter and leave your house whenever they want, uninvited and when you don't know their character?

Did God not tell the people who were under the covenant with Him to expel those who were evil in His sight? God knew the intentions of these people and that they would only harbour malice and strife for His people. He knew they would corrupt His people and because His people did not listen to God that is precisely what happened. 


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@Goldtop
Can you (your country) afford to support the rest of the third world freeloading in your country (send them all to your sanctuary cities and States and see how they fare)? What does the debt load mean to your children and grandchildren? Can you afford the drug epidemic most of which is transported through your southern border? How many of these illegals have criminal records? How many are MS 13? What about the child and sex trafficking going on? 
Notice that PGA can only contribute blatant lies to his hateful narrative of others he fears due to the hate mongering of his beloved Trump.

Again, you avoided answering the questions and instead attacked me personally. This just shows you are not interested in a productive dialogue. 

How are asking questions lying?
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@3RU7AL
I perceive you have no justifiable argument because you attack me rather than the argument. 
I perceive you have abandoned the spirit of the following scripture,
But instead of addressing the argument you attacked me. You made it a personal vendetta by attacking me rather than the argument. You did not stay focused on the argument.


Leviticus 19:34 The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born [not deported]. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the Lord your God.


I already addressed this verse by including the context. I answered your query about this Scripture in Post # 944. You failed to engage further except to accuse me. How did that address my argument?

In Post # 945  you made a statement that did not argue your case other than to accuse me of hiding behind the law when it suited my mood yet you never stated how I did this. Thus, the post because of a personal attack instead of defence of your position. Accusing me does not show how I have done this thus you have made a fallacious statement that has nothing to do with Leviticus 19:34. If you are going to accuse me of "hiding behind the law" to suit my "mood" then provide evidence that I have done this. 
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@PGA2.0
Here's your quote,

The law of justice in the USA is that a foreigner must come into the country legally. 
You're clearly mixing and matching "gods law" with "man's law" when it suits your mood.

Either stick to either "gods law" or "man's law" or explain how you decide which one takes precedence.

Leviticus 19:34 - The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born [not deported]. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the Lord your God.

This verse appears to be quite straight-forward and easy to understand.

What makes you think that "man's law" somehow supersedes Leviticus 19:34?
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@3RU7AL
Here's your quote,

The law of justice in the USA is that a foreigner must come into the country legally. 
You're clearly mixing and matching "gods law" with "man's law" when it suits your mood.
You guys were the ones who brought open borders and other issues (i.e., your Post 939) and I responded in Post 941 in which I mentioned that in biblical times and before walls were used to keep unwanted people out and protect those within.

Nehemiah was given the task of restoring the walls of Jerusalem and I liken that concept to what Trump was trying to do (i.e., protect those within from evil outside - for one the drug smuggling and deadly gangs infused by crooked cartels). 

***

Here was part of my post:

Nehemiah 2:17-18
17 Then I said to them, “You see the bad situation we are in, that Jerusalem is desolate and its gates burned by fire. Come, let us rebuild the wall of Jerusalem so that we will no longer be a reproach.” 18 I told them how the hand of my God had been favorable to me and also about the king’s words which he had spoken to me. Then they said, “Let us arise and build.” So they put their hands to the good work.

Nehemiah 3
Now when Sanballat, Tobiah, the Arabs, the Ammonites and the Ashdodites heard that the repair of the walls of Jerusalem went on, and that the breaches began to be closed, they were very angry. All of them conspired together to come and fight against Jerusalem and to cause a disturbance in it.


The last two sentences I underlined sound like the Democrats.

Nehemiah 6:15-16
The Wall Is Finished
15 So the wall was completed on the twenty-fifth of the month Elul, in fifty-two days. 16 When all our enemies heard of it, and all the nations surrounding us saw it, they lost their confidence; for they recognized that this work had been accomplished with the help of our God. 

***

Notice how the Ammonites and others were very angry that Nehemiah had resorted to rebuilding the wall. They, in that respect, were very much like the Democrats who once supported a wall but now oppose it. Notice how these people conspired to cause a disturbance, just like the Dems conspire every day to cause a disturbance. 

Notice how Israel's enemies heard of the completion of the wall and lost their confidence. They recognized this work had been accomplished with the help of God, so how was not God for the wall??? 


Either stick to either "gods law" or "man's law" or explain how you decide which one takes precedence.
I've given evidence that God does not oppose walls to protect people. They also provide needed privacy as well as the safety aspect.

You understand all this quite well. You probably have doors on your house and a wall or fence around your property and you probably do not let just anyone wander through your house and yard yet you do not apply the same standards to your country. You appear unconcerned on who comes through and neglect the crime that the open southern border promotes. If you want open borders then start with yourself and tear down your own property fences and open your doors to everyone. Feed them, clothe them, house them, and provide schooling care for them and maybe then you will realize the cost and drain on you and also think about the drain on your country. 

Ideally, everyone would get together but that has never been the case and walls are needed. Even the heavenly Jerusalem speaks of walls, in a symbolic or figurative way, IMO. 


Leviticus 19:34 - The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born [not deported]. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the Lord your God.

This verse appears to be quite straight-forward and easy to understand.
A verse out of context is a pretext. Read the surrounding context instead of plucking it out of context. 


What makes you think that "man's law" somehow supersedes Leviticus 19:34?

God's laws are always greater but what makes you think that God opposes protecting the innocent from the corrupt?

Again, you are trying to apply ANE laws to today and ANE laws provide examples for us in that God allowed for the protection of His people. He was significantly focused on protecting His people when they followed the covenant and when they did not He taught them many invaluable lessons that are also an example to us who think we know better than God.
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@PGA2.0
Leviticus 19:34 - The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born [not deported]. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the Lord your God.

This verse appears to be quite straight-forward and easy to understand.

None of the "context" you've presented contradicts this simple command, "The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born".

You appeal to the ancient tradition of building walls to protect cities from ARMIES.  This does not contradict Leviticus 19:34.

You appeal to "common sense" by proposing that people leave their doors unlocked.  This does not contradict Leviticus 19:34.

Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the Lord your God.