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@Swagnarok
Israel is the exact same way - a permanent majority-Jewish state, in the same way that there are dozens of permanent majority-Arab states.
- This means absolutely nothing. It's circular gibberish. States rise & fall. As I said, There will be no talk about Israel existence itself if this was transposed into China for instance, for respective power dynamics makes it unattainable. There was no such possible reality during Ottoman rule either. Napoleon was the first to attempt establishing a Jewish enclave in Palestine.
The Jews resettled Palestine in large numbers during the late 19th and early 20th century.
- Not that large, no. Though you sound more informed than others here.
So what? The Arabs themselves conquered and colonized Palestine, and that's the only reason you consider it an Arab land today.
- As an Islamic land, yes. As an Arab land, I wonder! Depends on whether Arabs are conquerors or indigenous, & on whether 'Arabness' developed after Arab tribes settled in the area. All indigenous peoples of the that entire region are semitic, Sumerians, Akkadians, Assyrians, Phoenicians, Arabs..etc, aka descendants of Shem. At some point in History, these peoples started identifying separately. This might turn out to be quite the interesting discussion.
- Pre Islamic Conquest, the 'Arabian Peninsula' referred to Sham (meaning 'south' in classical Arabic, aka Levant), Iraq, Yaman (meaning 'north' in classical Arabic, aka Yemen & Oman today) & everything in between – & 'Arabs' referred to the inhabitants of the Arabian Peninsula. The pre-Islamic area of Palestine was occupied by the Judam, Lakhm & Amila tribes of Kahlan son of Qahtan; & the Ghasan tribe of Azd son of Qahtan. All ancient Arab tribes, not descendants of Ishmael!
- It's a huge misconception that Arabs are the descendants of Ishmael (pbuh). Ishmael himself was not originally Arab, rather he was raised in & married among the Arab tribe of Jorhum in Mecca. Pre-Islamic Arabs identify themselves as descendants of the sons of Shem: Aram & Lud, & later Ishmael progeny of Arphaxad, & classified themselves into 3 kinds:
1. Extinct Arabs (Ba'ida) – Arab tribes descendants of Aram who largely went extinct, notably: Amalek, Amorites (founders of Babylon around 18th century BC), Jadis, Tasim, 'Ad... the last of them being the Nabateans (from whom the modern Arabic script originate), who ruled the Levant from 4th BC until they became Roman vassals in 1st BC.
2. Ancient Arabs ('Ariba) – Arab tribes descendants of Qahtan progeny of Lud to which belong most tribes of the Arabian Peninsula, namely in the Levant, Iraq, Yemen, Oman & eastern Arabia, & some in the Hijaz.
3. Assimilated Arabs (Musta'riba) – Arab tribes descendants of Ishmael son of Abraham (pbuh) who is a descendant of Arphaxad. These are the minority & mainly reside in the Hijaz region. These are referred to in out tradition as Adnania & in Hebrew tradition as Qedar. The designation also extends to non-Ishmael descendants who also integrated into Arabs, namely Edomites (Edom being the nephew of Ishmael).
- Amorites (Amer) are an extinct Arab tribe which spanned from the -today- southern Syria to northern Arabia, had some conflicts with Akkad around 22nd BC then migrated to Mesopotamia around 19th BC eventually establishing the Babylonian empire. Both Arab chronicles & the conventional History agree that Amorites are migrants from Levant to Mesopotamia (although these chronicles attribute this conquest to someone called Mesh (Gilgamesh?)). They would later be overtaken by the Assyrians (from northern Syria) during their conquest of Aram arround 9th BC. Amalek is another extinct Arab tribe which spanned today's Palestine & Lebanon, who migrated to Egypt & established the Hyksos dynasty (around 16th BC). The consecutive conquests these Arab tribes suffer during the 1st millennium BC from foreign powers (Assyrians, Egyptians, Persians, Greeks, Romans...etc), would eventually cause them to disintegrate. 'Extinct' does not necessarily mean they were genocided (although Jews claim to have annihilated the Amalek tribe). Like the Nabateans, eventually by the 7th century no one identifies as such.
- Ghasan, the main tribe in of southern Levant belong to the Azd Ancient Arab tribe, who established the Sheba kingdom (around 13th BC) & migrated to the north after the Marib Dam was destroyed around 8th or 9th BC (a catastrophic event in ancient Arab history). The dam would eventually get rebuilt in the 8th BC but other Arab tribes will continue to migrate to the Levant, eventually dominating the culture of the region. This event might have contributed to engender Arabness as a separate identity & language probably.
- As to Jews. There are two contentions. First, they are foreigners. Abraham (pbuh) comes from Ur (Mesopotamia) during the Babylonian empire, & goes around Assyria, Canaan & Egypt around 18th BC. His grandson Jacob (pbuh) father of the Israelites settles in Jerusalem & builds the Aqsa mosque. They all migrate to Egypt & settle around 16th BC (under Arab Hyksos rule). Then get expelled a couple centuries later around 13th BC. Then get exiled to Sinai. Then take Jerusalem from the Amalek & Amorites during Joshua's reign around 13th BC. Then get expelled again. Then take it again under Saul then David (pbuh) & establish Judea for a century in 10th BC. Then get expelled again by Nebuchanezer in 6th BC. Then brought back again centuries later, this time they forced others including Arabs to convert to Judaism. Then get expelled by the Romans in 70AD. Then get brought back by the Persians again. Then get expelled by the Romans again. Then get brought back by the Muslims. Then get expelled again by the Crusaders, until Muslims take over again... The main destination of these expulsions was Arabia itself, since Arabs in Arabia didn't mind Jews. Everywhere else Jews went, they experienced similar fates, except Persia & later under Islamic rule. Second, most are not even Israelites. 90% aren't even Semitic, including Ashkenazis.
- In conclusion. Arabs are actually indigenous to the region. At least to a large portion of it. Jews are not. They actually originate from a different Semitic peoples from Mesopotamia. 'Hebrew' in Arabic means 'Ibrani' meaning those who crossed the river. As in crossed the Euphrates from Mesopotamia to the Levant. In fact, Jews (Israelites) essentially migrated from one Arab nation to another almost their entire History. In fact, they fought & genocided Arabs (Amalek & Amorites) to gain Jerusalem the first time, & the second time.
From my point of view, both acts of colonization are ancient history; that one piece of ancient history just happens to be more recent than the other
- Wrong. One is ancient history, the other isn't. One is an act of colonization, the other isn't. Palestine was under Judea for a century 3 millennia ago. It was under Arab/Muslim rule for the better part of the 3 millennia since & the 1 millennia before, until it was invaded by the British & handed to the Jews.
- Even for the sake of argument we assume your position, those conquered are either wholly integrated today or long gone. Either way, no non-Arab claim to the land is extant, including from ancient Judea. The same way no non-Han claim to Han land (eastern China) is extant, since all others have been conquered 22 centuries ago. The same can not be said about Turkey vs Greece, or Morocco vs Spain for instance. Since all involved polities lay claim to same lands. The Palestinians whose land was taken by the British & handed to Jews still live & still claim their rights over it.
On a serious note. I actually have a lot more to say about this. It is a subject that deserves to be flushed out. There are many layers to this question itself & its merits, not just for this case, but in general. I might make a post on this topic.
(and the expulsion of the Jews from Israel is the most ancient piece of history of all) is irrelevant to the discussion.
- There is a +2000 years of recoded History in the region before Judea... Those people from back then still live there.
What's relevant is that both Jews and Arabs are in the Middle East today. The question is how to make sure that both groups have a self-governing space large enough to accommodate their basic needs. At present, that question has been answered satisfactorily, with the exception of the Palestinian question.
- The Western arrogance is quite the thing, isn't it. The world belongs to us, & we decide who inherits it. LOL! You are an invader & you will be expelled & subsequently invaded yourself, sooner or later. – This very discussion would not exist in a slightly different power dynamic. Imagine a gypsy colonial pocket in today's USA supported by Arabs. Now back to reality.
And the Palestinians are, of course, just Arabs.
- And Palestinian & Muslim. Jews are, of course, just European.
How do they know when they haven't seriously tried a political solution? Actually, scratch that, they did -- Hamas and then seeing if the Israelis would sustain the blockade in the face of moderate Gazan leadership, but the Gazans never did.
- Tone down the arrogance. It's reeking. Israel & US lost against Gaza, just as NATO lost against Taliban. Internalize that. – You might be onto something though, if you fail to subdue them through force, plead with the Resistance to lay down their arms peacefully, so they can be happy to be called "moderates". Win-win. LMAO!
- Here is a challenge. Imagine this is a Jewish land for millennias & Arabs came from Europe & took it claiming it was promised to them 3 millennia ago. Subsequent events transpire, Jews in Gaza. Arabs in Tel Aviv. How do you qualify this?
If the West Bankers and Gazans actually put moderates in charge and stop letting their territory be used as a launchpad for terrorism...
- I can blame this on naivety, but it's just pure arrogance. As you said, Israel should start putting moderates in charge & disarm itself to show Palestinians it is seeking peace. Or better, when Palestinians possess equal military power & nuclear capability as Israel, which is likely not that far in the future, then we can talk about political solutions. How about that? – Israel is dominating for 70 years thanks to the full backing of the West, which has been dominating for 200 years. That's nothing in historical time. Muslim dominated the world for 10 centuries.
The PLO tried to take over Jordan in 1970. They failed.
- Israel tried to take over Gaza with its entire might with the full backing of the West using +500k troops & 7 Hiroshima bombs worth of bombing & FAILED. I'd say Jordan is incapable of defending against a force capable of inducing said failure.
