Updated Reads:
Town: Pie, GP, Owen, Vader, Austin, Casey
Null: Luna, Earth, WF, Joe, Barney, Savant
Scum: Mharman, Banana
Hell Diary DP 1
Posts
Read-only
Total:
454
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@ILikePie5
Or it’s a scum trying to blend in.
… for giving reads. That’s a new one.
Why would I bullshit? If I don’t reveal the information, then I’m scum. If I wanted to use it to my advantage, I would wait till there was adequate suspicion on me to get it off of me with this, not say it upfront.
Because your “information” could be anything. And even if you have some, it doesn’t inherently make town, based on what Casey just said.
Town cred is the key, and you could either be informed scum, or faking such information as scum in the information is whatever you want it to be.
You were quick to join the wagon after Casey voted for me and not before.
Your response to my points on Banana were such egregious logic that I was gonna go for it anyway.
What are you talking about? Banana hasn’t pushed me at all. She’s been quiet for a while.
Talking about Bo Burnham, where she pushed for you off of low activity. That was a shitty push. So was the current one on Banana.
No, I still think I’m right. I’m just saying Casey’s reason to sus be is NAI coming from me cause I’ve done it both as town and scum.
lol :)
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@Casey_Risk
Do you think town or scum should know about it more if they are informed?
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@ILikePie5
So… if you do happen to be wrong on Banana, would you see where I’m coming from here?
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@Mharman
… for giving reads. That’s a new one.
So you’re saying scum don’t try to blend it by giving reads?
Because your “information” could be anything. And even if you have some, it doesn’t inherently make town, based on what Casey just said.
Nothing makes me inherently town. I never said my information makes me town, did I?
Town cred is the key, and you could either be informed scum, or faking such information as scum in the information is whatever you want it to be.
I knew this information at the beginning of the DP. The information is clear. If you think I’m scum, Wylted gave me the info at the start of the game, and I explicitly chose to say this information out loud this DP. You’re welcome to believe that
Your response to my points on Banana were such egregious logic that I was gonna go for it anyway.
If ya say so. I still stand by my “logic.”
Talking about Bo Burnham, where she pushed for you off of low activity. That was a shitty push. So was the current one on Banana.
I’ve pushed people for shitty activity myself. It wasn’t that. It was the aggression that made me scumread Banana. There’s a difference.
lol :)
:)
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@Mharman
So… if you do happen to be wrong on Banana, would you see where I’m coming from here?
If I’m wrong on Banana, it has nothing to do with you. I’m reading you independent of Banana.
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@Mharman
Do you think town or scum should know about it more if they are informed?
Honestly, that's really tough for me to say. I know what sort of information Pie knows, but I don't know how or the extent to which he knows the information, and I doubt he's going to be very forthcoming about any of that until the end of this DP at least.
Unvote
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@Casey_Risk
Honestly, that's really tough for me to say. I know what sort of information Pie knows, but I don't know how or the extent to which he knows the information, and I doubt he's going to be very forthcoming about any of that until the end of this DP at least.
At this point, scum know that I know something about you. You have more of a gated community around you since no one suspects you.
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@ILikePie5
… for giving reads. That’s a new one.So you’re saying scum don’t try to blend it by giving reads?
Nahhh this a devious strawman XD. All to defend the idea that Owen is scum because he's giving reads. You know why scum gives reads to blend in? Because townies give reads. Noobs have to learn to read people eventually. To accuse a noob of "blending in" for such a thing is crazy talk.
Because your “information” could be anything. And even if you have some, it doesn’t inherently make town, based on what Casey just said.Nothing makes me inherently town. I never said my information makes me town, did I?
I didn't say you said you did. I do feel scum Pie would still do it for town cred. You do need to proclaim yourself inherently town for the information to gain town cred, you just need townies to do so.
Town cred is the key, and you could either be informed scum, or faking such information as scum in the information is whatever you want it to be.I knew this information at the beginning of the DP. The information is clear. If you think I’m scum, Wylted gave me the info at the start of the game, and I explicitly chose to say this information out loud this DP. You’re welcome to believe that
Because you want some minmax where scum is gonna screw up? I think it's clear at this point that they aren't gonna.
Tell me, how is scum gonna screw up? If anything you might as well claim some things to get the suspicious off ya, cause I'm not going away.
Your response to my points on Banana were such egregious logic that I was gonna go for it anyway.If ya say so. I still stand by my “logic.”
Go ahead and explain why Banana saying she had a lot of messages, got what she needed, and didn't read the rest is a scumtell, and not something like lazy play from a more casual player. I seem to remember Banana's rant about "tryharding men" from a while ago, don't you? And what about Whiteflame's point about how she's only likely to list the number of messages if she actually had them?
Talking about Bo Burnham, where she pushed for you off of low activity. That was a shitty push. So was the current one on Banana.I’ve pushed people for shitty activity myself. It wasn’t that. It was the aggression that made me scumread Banana. There’s a difference.
My point was that what Banana here is doing is different compared to Bo Burnham. I will say that you are being pretty aggressive in your read toward Banana tho ;)
Anyway, the strawmans are making me scumread you even harder.
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@ILikePie5
If I’m wrong on Banana, it has nothing to do with you. I’m reading you independent of Banana.
Interesting take, considering the primary reason for my sus on you is your read on Banana. I wonder what reasons for me being scum you're about to invent, now that no one is buying your read on Banana.
Thinking Casey is town since she's had ample opportunity to go after Pie. If he's really town, you'd think Casey would take the opportunity here.
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@Casey_Risk
Honestly, that's really tough for me to say. I know what sort of information Pie knows, but I don't know how or the extent to which he knows the information, and I doubt he's going to be very forthcoming about any of that until the end of this DP at least.
My thought here is if your role has some power to it, scum would be more likely to know about it. If your role has enough chaos for town, I can see how town would be informed.
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@ILikePie5
Here's a question: Were you informed of other parties knowing what you know?
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@Mharman
My thought here is if your role has some power to it, scum would be more likely to know about it. If your role has enough chaos for town, I can see how town would be informed.
I think you're assuming things you shouldn't be assuming.
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@Casey_Risk
Noted
VTL Pie
I know he's an aggressive player, but the things he's being aggressive about don't make sense to me. The Banana incident seemed to me to be very minor, and its weird that trying to become a better player through reads is a behavioral shift he is marking as scummy.
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@Mharman
Nahhh this a devious strawman XD. All to defend the idea that Owen is scum because he's giving reads. You know why scum gives reads to blend in? Because townies give reads. Noobs have to learn to read people eventually. To accuse a noob of "blending in" for such a thing is crazy talk.
I’m saying it’s a behavior change. I scumread behaviors changes, until I get information to the contrary. I believe Owen’s claim and his role, which is why I moved him to my town pile.
I didn't say you said you did. I do feel scum Pie would still do it for town cred. You do need to proclaim yourself inherently town for the information to gain town cred, you just need townies to do so.
If my name wasn’t Pie, you would be townreading me is what you’re saying. That’s fine, you’re entitled to that opinion. You’re either paranoid that I’m scum when I’m not (which I’ll remind you has happened more than a few times), or you’re scum wanting to get rid of a strong player like me.
Because you want some minmax where scum is gonna screw up? I think it's clear at this point that they aren't gonna.
Oh they still might. It really depends.
Tell me, how is scum gonna screw up? If anything you might as well claim some things to get the suspicious off ya, cause I'm not going away.
The information I reveal is doesn’t concern you. Idrc whether you go away or not, cause I’m not going to go away either from you
Go ahead and explain why Banana saying she had a lot of messages, got what she needed, and didn't read the rest is a scumtell, and not something like lazy play from a more casual player. I seem to remember Banana's rant about "tryharding men" from a while ago, don't you? And what about Whiteflame's point about how she's only likely to list the number of messages if she actually had them?
She’s a radical liberal who hates men and think they’re oppressors of women. She also knows that justifications are important. I don’t believe she got 14 pages. I think it’s hyperbolic. Speaking of pages. Does she mean posts? 14 big posts from Wylted? And then she supposedly knew it was about Israel Hamas but didn’t bother to read it. I don’t buy it. You can scumread me for it all you. I had Casey pinged DP1 when everyone townread her.
My point was that what Banana here is doing is different compared to Bo Burnham. I will say that you are being pretty aggressive in your read toward Banana tho ;)
Scumplay is more likely to evolve than townplay imo. Just look at Casey last game. I am being aggressive. I am aggressive by nature.
Anyway, the strawmans are making me scumread you even harder.
What strawman are you talking about? I’m replying to what my understanding of your comment is.
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@Mharman
Interesting take, considering the primary reason for my sus on you is your read on Banana. I wonder what reasons for me being scum you're about to invent, now that no one is buying your read on Banana.
I’ve already said why I scumread you.
Banana, Casey, and Owen are my town pile. Despite my sus on Pie, I'm still looking for reasons I could be wrong here. I think there won't be any, but it's worth looking into to stress test my read here.
Even if Pie is town, it's gonna be more of a case where I give him a TI pass rather than believe his reads. Lunatic doesn't have that going for him.
And in all this I still haven't given a hard look at anyone else, unfortunately.
That's where I'm at right now.
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@Mharman
Here's a question: Were you informed of other parties knowing what you know?
Idk what you mean. Give me an example/scenario
How much time do we have left?
Yeah... this headache isn't going away. Wanted to do something more detailed, but this is going to be light so that I can at least get some initial thoughts out.
It seems like most of this sus on Pie stems from his reasoning for sussing Banana and his decision to hold off on giving his information. I get why this back and forth is aggravating to a number of people, particularly Mharman, but it's not like Pie hasn't done any of this before as town. I'm not fond of his reasoning either, but it would be a first among all the games we've had for Pie to be this intransigent as scum this early. As for pushing back, it's kind of what he does, particularly when he feels he has something like the piece of information he keeps teasing in his back pocket. None of this makes him town - in fact, all of it just makes me null read him and that's likely the way I'll stay until we get further info from him - but it also doesn't stand out as particularly scummy.
So, for now at least, Pie's in my null pile. Most of my other null reads come from either their participation being pretty basic so far or their just largely being absent. That includes Barney, Joe, Austin, Savant and Earth.
Behaviorally, I'm townreading Casey especially, who seems genuinely uncertain of how to view Pie. Owen comes off as a light townread, which has more to do with why he's coming down against Pie than anything (he does really seem focused on behavior and engaging on the reasoning - it's new for him, but it comes off as trying to participate whereas I think he'd be more likely to take less clear stances as scum). Vader's similarly a townlean, though in his case, it's because of both how he's engaging with his FoSs (it's a departure from others putting Luna and Mharman in that boat and I can at least understand his reasoning) and his defense of Pie, the latter of which seems to come from previous games with him. Couple that with his initial softclaim and he's a stronger townlean.
And yes, I still townread Banana for reasons I've already mentioned. I do not buy that she took at look at her Discord and came back with this response about receiving a certain number of PMs. I've already said my peace on GP (nothing's really changed there - the unknown Crab God claim still swings null).
I do want to reread a lot of these exchanges between Pie and Mharman when I can better focus, but since this comes off as very town vs. town behavior (honestly, don't think I've ever seen Mharman this combative with another player this early, though I'll have to do some research to check).
As for Luna, I'd like to see what he's getting at waiting for Banana's response. I don't like the logic against Banana, but I don't know if it comes off more as just frustration with lazy play or an active scumread.
Anyway, that's all I've got for tonight. Gonna go lie down.
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@AustinL0926
Before I make any decision on who I want to vote, I want to hear Austin's perspective. I understand he is on a trip and back tonight, but I feel like it wouldn't be fair if we hammered someone and didn't let them speak their opinions...
I have some comments and concerns but I feel like we should give Austin a fair opportunity to talk. Not to mention his processing and reads in this DP could be beneficial than if we just push them to DP2
I have some comments and concerns but I feel like we should give Austin a fair opportunity to talk. Not to mention his processing and reads in this DP could be beneficial than if we just push them to DP2
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@whiteflame
I do want to reread a lot of these exchanges between Pie and Mharman when I can better focus, but since this comes off as very town vs. town behavior (honestly, don't think I've ever seen Mharman this combative with another player this early, though I'll have to do some research to check).
Yeah this is my biggest worry. I know I have an FoS but every time Pie and Mhar interact it really does give off town versus town. I also just don't Mhar is going post for post with Pie if he is scum but I also don't know. The last time I played with Mhar was awhile ago, the earliest I can think of was when I was arsonist in drafter 2021 game (I think there's more but my memory can't think of any ATM), and I did not see him as combative as he is now.
I think I am going to reread some Mhar games and see but again, I really can't tell.
I think I am going to reread some Mhar games and see but again, I really can't tell.
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@Barney
@Savant
I want to hear a lot more from Barney and Savant. I think they have kind of lurked around in the shadows and really haven't done too much in this DP besides give some vanilla analysis and some basic reads. In a game where Pie and Mharman are controlling the tempo, if it is a situation where it's town vs town, they have no incentive to try and make reads and engage when it looks like they will consume each other
I want to hear both of your thoughts, opinions, and reads or links to any analysis you have
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@ILikePie5
I’m saying it’s a behavior change. I scumread behaviors changes, until I get information to the contrary. I believe Owen’s claim and his role, which is why I moved him to my town pile.
That's stupid method of reasoning, since not behavior changes are scummy. It really shouldn't have taken a claim from Owen to get you to realize your scumread on him was stupid.
If my name wasn’t Pie, you would be townreading me is what you’re saying. That’s fine, you’re entitled to that opinion. You’re either paranoid that I’m scum when I’m not (which I’ll remind you has happened more than a few times), or you’re scum wanting to get rid of a strong player like me.
Strong player? With the reads on Banana, Owen, and I? LMFAOOOOOO not this game. I'm also not gonna be manipulated by the "you're just paranoid" bullshit. I'm still, despite everything, open-minded to a way you could be town. That's why I'm asking you some of these questions.
The information I reveal is doesn’t concern you. Idrc whether you go away or not, cause I’m not going to go away either from you
If you are town and want to keep your information on someone else, fine. I'm not interested in that anymore, given what Casey has said. But I would like a role and character claim from you at the very least, plus a synopsis of your entry. I don't think I'm able to give you a pass for your shit reads otherwise.
She also knows that justifications are important.
She implied she got the justification.
I don’t believe she got 14 pages. I think it’s hyperbolic. Speaking of pages. Does she mean posts? 14 big posts from Wylted?
And what difference does that make? Remember, I think the big picture is that she a saw a bunch of text and felt she didn't need to pay much attention to it because she got what she needed already.
And then she supposedly knew it was about Israel Hamas but didn’t bother to read it. I don’t buy it. You can scumread me for it all you
Again, this relies on semantics on what counts as reading. It's just pedantry from you at this point. Here's a question: If Banana can be hyperbolic about 14 messages, why can't she be hyperbolic when she says she didn't read it? I think a good faith interpretation of Banana here is that she skimmed some things. and that didn't count as spending the time to read those paragraphs in her eyes.
I had Casey pinged DP1 when everyone townread her.
You also said you've been dead wrong about a lot of things as town. And this is assuming you are town, since I get the sense, that even you do you scumread townies, your worst logic is displayed when you are scum.
Scumplay is more likely to evolve than townplay imo. Just look at Casey last game.
And I think noob town is bound to evolve his game sooner rather than later if the state of his play is basically just "I don't know what to read, you do it for me." Plenty of improvements to be made, I'm not shocked Owen started with the worst part of his noob game. It's kind of a no brainer. If you're a noob who can't read people, try to learn to read... it's only the most important skill a townie can have.
What strawman are you talking about?
Multiple. I pointed them out. You said I was saying scum doesn't blend in with reads. You said I was saying you think your information makes you inherently town. Neither of those were my argument, and I had to explain it you back there.
Idk what you mean. Give me an example/scenario
Let's say you are really town and know something? Do you think mafia knows that same piece of information that you know?
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@Vader
In a game where Pie and Mharman are controlling the tempo, if it is a situation where it's town vs town, they have no incentive to try and make reads and engage when it looks like they will consume each other
Astute observation. I have been thinking about the consequences of me being wrong on Pie. It would certainly not be a good look for those who disappeared from the thread. Would like to give Austin a pass on it, and I think I will give Barney one for now as well, iirc he made note that his activity would be low early on.
It is worth mentioning that Barney did lowpost all of DP1 last time he was scum, and what was suspicious to me about that was how little he said about the game when he actually did check in. So I'll revoke that pass on Barney if what he can give is fuck all
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@Lunatic
@Vader
@ILikePie5
I don't think giving vanilla reads is very helpful at this point, since we have to lynch 1 of 14 players. Imo, we're not going to find a day one lynch from PoE. That leaves scum reads, and Owen's claim moved him from a slight scum lean to a town read.
So who's on the table for a lynch? I can think of several options, though I'd want to get a claim first before going for a lynch. Luna going after banana like this and then disappearing from the conversation is a bit scummy, but I've seen town Luna be determined before, and I don't really see the play if Luna is scum. Barney isn't making very substantive posts much, but I've seen him behave like this as town. Of those two, I'd want a claim from Luna first, since I just don't see this scum read on banana.
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@Vader
I still wanna go after Lunatic's claim this DP, and he is among those that disappeared as well.