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@Vader
I agree, I went with what would be most helpful for town, not myself.
A selfish person would have picked Bulletproof or lynchproof.
Choose Your Role DP1
Posts
Read-only
Total:
313
Official Vote Count:
Pie- 1/5- Casey
Austin- 1/5- Pie
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@ILikePie5
VTL AustinI think we should lynch Austin for a couple of reasons. First, it can help prove GP’s role. Second, the fact that Austin has been so adamant that the fact his role is confirm’s him as town. Austin is experienced enough that he knows role confirmation =/= affiliation confirmation by any means. Third, I believe he scum slipped in this paragraph:“Pretty sure this hard confirms me as town, since it'd be atrocious from a balancing perspective to give scum a useless when town has seven non-negative utility PRs.”As Whiteflame mentioned Lunatic never mentioned that scum would get options in categories to scum, so how does he know that scum would be “given” a useless [role].
I'm not clear on the sus here.
The first point is true of basically anyone who is town, since GP's role will confirm them regardless of their prior role. I also don't really like that you started with that, since the implication is that Austin is a mislynch. I know you used "can" in that sentence, but it's still weird to state this if you strongly believe he's scum, since the flip necessarily would make GP's role useless for this DP.
The second point is really where you're sussing him and I guess I'm getting it a little more based the info you say you've received from Luna. If you're right that scum have been given roles specific to the two Categories town doesn't have in their ranks, then you're correct that no amount of role confirmation suggests confirmation of their affiliation. I agree it doesn't "hard confirm" him regardless (and I think that was jumping the gun a bit), but he's also not the first person to suggest that scum might have access to roles in the two Categories that aren't in town. There is some presumption in that line that suggests that scum could have received a role from those Categories, which seems to be the stronger basis for your sus, but I read this as making a case for why it couldn't be because it would throw off the balance of the game. That's not to mention that this post is from early in the DP, well before there was any significant discussion of what roles scum could or could not have based on what we know from the OP and the signup thread. Maybe he's implying that he has inside information about what roles scum have access to and if I squint at it hard enough I can see your position, but that's not how I'm reading it.
Now the second part to this is my role that I need to put today anyways in case I die. My category is Passive and my role is Informed. Per this role, I was given important information relating to scum that no one else knows (besides scum themselves).Here is the info:Mafia started with two roles each. The first to prove the category they know to be fake one to help prove their fake category, and one every night role from a special selection of roles exclusive to mafia. Even though scum have a total of 4 roles, they can use one role per NP aside from the NK.
So we have our first unconfirmable role claim. That doesn't automatically make you sus, but I'm going to point it out because this is a marked shift from the claims made so far. It's also a claim I'm unfamiliar with, though I also hadn't heard of a Role Changer. I will, however, note that that particular role seems very tailored to this setup, while your role seems more generalized, so it comes off to me as pretty distinct from the rest of the existing claims and from my own role.
I looked up the role as well. This is an abnormally large amount of information for an Informed player to receive. It's listed as usually getting something like the identity of another townie or the existence of a particular PR. It's weird as well that it partially contradicts the information I spelled out from the sign-up thread and OP, specifically giving you information that scum have access to a role that belongs to their fake Category. If we take this at face value, that means scum have access to two full claims that are, essentially, just real. That's more support for the scum team than I think I've ever seen in a game, but given that this is a unique game, I suppose it's possible. This essentially means that the only ways to determine that scum isn't what they say they are is to find behavioral tells (which is a lot harder to do when they're literally just telling the truth about what they can/cannot do) or find evidence that they used another role/committed the NK. That's possible as well, and given the explicit lack of a TP in this game as well as the issues with balancing it that come from people selecting their own roles, it might just be that Luna wants to force town into a more difficult position using this setup.
Still, I'm struggling to buy this. Is this a rephrasing of what he sent you? I'm assuming it's not just c/p'd, so I'll function under that assumption, but the way it's written just seems... off. This all seems needlessly clunky, particularly: "The first to prove the category they know to be fake one to help prove their fake category". Why not just say "Scum receive a role from the two remaining categories"? Why spell out that the purpose is to "prove their fake category"? For that matter, why were you provided the extra information that the other role they received is an "every night role"?
Now being me, I picked Luna’s brain a lot and I got some other stuff out of him because the info was confusing. If scum have a passive role (ie Hammerer from one of the categories) they can still use an active role at night. Functionally, scum can use two active actions at night + NK assuming their “town role” is passive. If their “town role” is active, they have to waive a mafia action at night in place of the the active “town role.”
I'm also struggling with some of this follow-up. The way you phrased it above was that they have access to four roles, but can only use one per NP, suggesting that scum have very strong PRs and that they effectively have a pool to select one from and use per night. Now you say that they have four roles and can use two per night, one for each player, so long as they're active roles. The latter does make more sense, but that makes your phrasing on the PM you say you received feel even more off.
Now how does this affect Austin. He’s the only one that came out saying he’s confirmed town just because he has a negative utility role that is “confirmable.” He also cited balance which we know is wonky this game, but read the paragraph he said before. He knows that scum were given roles from the two fake categories. No one here besides scum and me know that mafia were given functional town roles in the two fake categories. The paragraph shows Austin being one of them. Not to mention his confidence about role confirmation equaling affiliation confirmation. It’s 100% a scum slip, which is why I wanted everyone to comment and genuinely slip before I outted my role.
I've already discussed some of this, but I'll address a couple of distinct points. Yes, we know balance is wonky in this game. As Luna stated in the OP, though, the reason for that is pretty explicit: "the game balance was entirely determined by player choice". He's clearly concerned about how the balance will play out given what we chose, not so much based on how he set it up. I wouldn't say I agree with him that scum wouldn't be given a negative utility role, particularly Hammerer, though it skirts the line on what I'd even call a negative utility role in the hands of scum. That's a separate issue, but I feel it's worth mentioning.
Apart from that, I just don't buy this scum slip. First off, I don't think his confidence on role confirmation equaling affiliation confirmation is a scum slip. It's more than I'd be willing to say on the subject, but I already expressed my view that strong role confirmations could at least be close to an affiliation confirmation. Second, I don't think that sentence demonstrates that he "knows that scum were given roles from the two fake categories." Again, I think he's spelling out a balancing issue he would perceive specifically if they received a role in the Negative Utility category.
I'm going to give this some more thought, but in general, I'm not liking this post.
"I wouldn't say I agree with him"
Reading back through this and realizing I wasn't clear that the "him" referenced here is Austin, not Luna.
I just thought of this. If somebody chose a role for confirmation. They can use their role NP1 and then on NP2 I can switch it to something. Ore useful.
Also I think I figured something out.
VTL Whiteflame
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@whiteflame
I forgot you liked to be tagged when voted even if you are absurdly far from that particular vote mattering so here you go.
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@WyIted
I just thought of this. If somebody chose a role for confirmation. They can use their role NP1 and then on NP2 I can switch it to something. Ore useful.
This does make some sense, though given that you could be a target for the NK NP1 and that it would delay your role confirmation, I'm not sure the gamble is worth it.
Also I think I figured something out.VTL Whiteflame
Mind explaining this?
Official Vote Count:
Pie- 1/5- Casey
Austin- 1/5- Pie
Whiteflame- 1/5- Wylted
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@whiteflame
This does make some sense, though given that you could be a target for the NK NP1 and that it would delay your role confirmation, I'm not sure the gamble is worth it.
I think they'll try to target an investigative or a protection tbh but also didn't GP say he was given the chance at lynchproof or Death proof. Despite him thinking lynchproof is useless, it seems pretty useful to me. It seems better than what he picked TBH. I wonder if scum have a recruitment role that acts upon death or something. It's a far out theory at the moment but I want to ponder it.
Mind explaining this?
I want to check my logic first. Because I don't want to give away what I think I saw unless I actually saw it. The woman and kid leave for Florida today so I am tied up giving them attention until like 5pm so I will put something together by then or change my mind and put my vote elsewhere. Sorry that doesn't help but what I picked up on is behavioral and there is really nothing for you to address. Either you are town and the behavior is just not what I think it is or you are scum and it is and in either case it's not something like. "This action makes no sense" which would be something you could help with by explaining your logic.
I hope that wasn't confusing.
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@WyIted
I think they'll try to target an investigative or a protection tbh but also didn't GP say he was given the chance at lynchproof or Death proof. Despite him thinking lynchproof is useless, it seems pretty useful to me. It seems better than what he picked TBH. I wonder if scum have a recruitment role that acts upon death or something. It's a far out theory at the moment but I want to ponder it.
Might be worth checking to see when your role activates. Does your target get to use their current role before they get changed over? As for who scum will target, I'm not so sure they'll take a shot in the dark for an investigative role, though given that GP has already given away his role, he could very well be the target assuming he isn't able to use it in the twilight phase or something.
I want to check my logic first. Because I don't want to give away what I think I saw unless I actually saw it. The woman and kid leave for Florida today so I am tied up giving them attention until like 5pm so I will put something together by then or change my mind and put my vote elsewhere. Sorry that doesn't help but what I picked up on is behavioral and there is really nothing for you to address. Either you are town and the behavior is just not what I think it is or you are scum and it is and in either case it's not something like. "This action makes no sense" which would be something you could help with by explaining your logic.I hope that wasn't confusing.
That's fine. I'm knocking off the site for a bit after this to do some necessary work prep, so I can wait.
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@ILikePie5
Role confirmation =/= affiliation confirmationEspecially in this game tooWhy not?
I generally don't believe this is general I know you don't
But in this game remind you that people choose their roles and a quote from the OP saying:
Mafia will have role options to pick from not on this list however.
This means mafia likely have an extra role or something to pair with whatever they have as well. Can not trust someone just because they are role confirmed
Pie's role claim is interesting. I agree with WF that it does seem to give us a peculiarly large amount of information, and yet I'm inclined to believe him. From a balancing perspective, it makes a certain amount of sense. I also agree with his thought process regarding Austin placing an unusual amount of importance on role confirmation -- that also didn't sit right with me.
Unvote
I think it's slightly sus that no one who has posted anything since Pie made his claim has commented on it other than Whiteflame. It's a very impactful claim, and you'd also expect scum to want to take their time deciding how to react to it publicly. I think this a great chance to get some behavioral reads.
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@ILikePie5
I have information based on my role that will be very useful to town; I will wait to disclose till everyone comments.
Tbh, seems like we're revealing a lot for day 1. It's my inclination to try and put everything on the table, but I think we probably shouldn't give scum too much to work with.
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@whiteflame
@ILikePie5
I just realized. If Pie is informed, then lynching him is zero risk because even if he becomes vanilla, we still have the information.
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@ILikePie5
Wait just saw your info. Yeah, seems only helpful to town to reveal.
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@Savant
I just realized. If Pie is informed, then lynching him is zero risk because even if he becomes vanilla, we still have the information.
True, though that may be more of a tie-breaker on a lynch decision than anything else.
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@whiteflame
Yeah, it still wastes time if he's town. Just saying.
That's fair. We could lynch Pie. I would then make GP bullet proof so we have another safe town to be with us at mylo.
I will say that despite GP not contributing much, his reads are usually pretty good so we can depend on him to normally make the correct decision
Right now from a behavior perspective that Wylted is town. I think GP is also town but if Pie's logic about the mafia is true, GP can easily claim his role without reprocussions to a certain extent. But I like his reasoning behind his analysis and his behavior hasn't really detered me from what I see is usally town from him.
lean town btw I should add
Squinting at Pie's push on me, because there a couple parts in it that seem transparently bad faith and like he's deliberately twisting my words.
I think we should lynch Austin for a couple of reasons. First, it can help prove GP’s role.
And conveniently puts town on even numbers, losing us a lynch.
Second, the fact that Austin has been so adamant that the fact his role is confirm’s him as town. Austin is experienced enough that he knows role confirmation =/= affiliation confirmation by any means.
If you think this is what I've been saying, you haven't been reading my posts. My role is confirmed to be Hammerer - me claiming a role that can and will be confirmed functionally proves this. I'm pointing out that from a pure balance perspective, giving negative utility to scum imbalances the game to the point where it's not viable.
Third, I believe he scum slipped in this paragraph: “Pretty sure this hard confirms me as town, since it'd be atrocious from a balancing perspective to give scum a useless when town has seven non-negative utility PRs.”
I'm not even sure what Pie is saying here. I'm saying that:
a. Luna gave me this role (in the form of options)
b. If I was scum, I'd either not have chosen this role if I had other options, or if I didn't have options, then Luna's bad at balancing
c. Thus, I'm not scum.
Now how does this affect Austin. He’s the only one that came out saying he’s confirmed town just because he has a negative utility role that is “confirmable.” He also cited balance which we know is wonky this game, but read the paragraph he said before. He knows that scum were given roles from the two fake categories. No one here besides scum and me know that mafia were given functional town roles in the two fake categories. The paragraph shows Austin being one of them. Not to mention his confidence about role confirmation equaling affiliation confirmation. It’s 100% a scum slip, which is why I wanted everyone to comment and genuinely slip before I outted my role.
I didn't say that scum were given roles from two fake categories.
Pie is straight-up not reading what I said here, either deliberately or negligently.
I said that I was given roles from negative utility category, and that if I was scum, the options that Luna gave me would have been unbalanced.
I'm working from my own perspective of the information I have as a townie, and given that, pointing out that it doesn't make sense for me to be scum.
Saying that "I am [X], "It doesn't make sense for me to be scum]" doesn't mean that Scum is [X]. It's a hypothetical.
I really struggle to see Pie genuinely believing in this. I think he's capable of far better solving.
My hesitation mainly comes that when I flip town, it's going to look pretty bad for him. But I think that he is a good enough player to talk his way out of it. I strongly want to see whether he continues this push, because if he does, I'm going to assume he's just going for the mislynch.
Broadly agree with WF's post, like that he's not just being opportunistic and going for a mislynch.
Town:
GP
Wylted
WF
Lean town:
Casey
Savant
Slight town:
Earth
Null:
Vader
Lean scum:
Pie
Pie's role is not confirmed by any means btw.
He could easily be informed of that info just by means of being scum.
It's an easy fakeclaim, especially if his real one is scummy.
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@WyIted
I will post a list of reads soon.
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@Greyparrot
@whiteflame
@AustinL0926
Austin's reads seem pretty reasonable to me, which makes me town read him as well. Only thing I'd shift is maybe Earth, who seems pretty neutral to me. But that's barely any difference.
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@Greyparrot
protection, other roles was
Doctor
Bulletproof
Lynchproof
How were they numbered?
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@Savant
I read you and Austin as town.
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@WyIted
1. Doctor
2. Bulletproof
4. Lynchproof
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@Greyparrot
Okay let's lynch somebody to confirm your role. Somebody with a shit role like pie and then just don't tell anyone what I switch your role to so they don't know whether to mislynch you, NK you or try to duck who you doctor