Choose Your Role DP1

Author: Lunatic

Posts

Read-only
Total: 313
Vader
Vader's avatar
Debates: 30
Posts: 15,174
5
8
11
Vader's avatar
Vader
5
8
11
-->
@AustinL0926
Yes they are all negative utility but there is a level to negative that there is.

A miller is less of a neg utility than a hammerer, etc. I think if I was in your shoes I would choose the role that is the least likely to negatively effect town. That's just my analysis. Do you agree with what I have to say?
Vader
Vader's avatar
Debates: 30
Posts: 15,174
5
8
11
Vader's avatar
Vader
5
8
11
-->
@WyIted
What were the other roles you were offered if you don't mind?
AustinL0926
AustinL0926's avatar
Debates: 33
Posts: 2,513
3
5
9
AustinL0926's avatar
AustinL0926
3
5
9
-->
@Vader
Hammerer is the only confirmable role out of those four. Did you take that into account?
Vader
Vader's avatar
Debates: 30
Posts: 15,174
5
8
11
Vader's avatar
Vader
5
8
11
-->
@AustinL0926
Role confirmation =/= affiliation confirmation

Especially in this game too

whiteflame
whiteflame's avatar
Debates: 27
Posts: 5,293
4
6
10
whiteflame's avatar
whiteflame
4
6
10
-->
@Casey_Risk
I'm really not sure where WF is going with post #73. Claiming a category that isn't yours is a good way to get instantly CC'ed which is suicidal, so I think it's pretty clear that scum are just going to claim whatever their real category is whenever they claim. I guess scum could claim their partner's category, but then if one of them dies... see Pie's Recycled Roles. Put simply, I don't place any importance on whether a role is verifiable or not, unless that role is exceedingly unlikely to be scum, like GP's role.
So, a few things to note in order to explain my thinking.

First, the OP says this:

7 of the following 9 Role Categories belong to the town. Mafia will have role options to pick from not on this list however.
We know there are two role categories that are not included among town roles. We know from the sign-up page that this is true:

How this will work, is this will be an open set up game, with a list of 9 role Category types IE (Investigative, Protective, Manipulation, Preventative" Etc. I will be lying about two of those role categories being in the game, only mafia will know which two categories I am lying about, the other 7 will be truthful.
So, scum will have two choices: they can either claim a role that fits one of the two Categories that they know town doesn’t have, or they can claim a Category that they know a townie will have. Like you said, they’ll get CC’d if they do the latter, so they’ll do the former.

The issue there is that Luna said there are two Categories he’s lying about. He didn’t say scum will have access to roles in those Categories, only that they have role options “not on this list”, which means their actual roles are likely either from one of those 7 Categories town has in its repertoire, or from a Category outside the 9.

So, it follows then that they will have to claim a Category for which they will almost certainly not have an associated role. They could still “confirm” themselves using a different role and making it look like they’re something else, but my point still stands that the setup shouldn’t allow for scum to fully confirm a role from their fake-claimed Category. Maybe I’m just misinterpreting something and Luna has given scum not just two fake Categories to claim but actual roles that slot into those Categories neatly. However, that’s not how I’m reading the above quotes.
Casey_Risk
Casey_Risk's avatar
Debates: 5
Posts: 1,217
3
3
8
Casey_Risk's avatar
Casey_Risk
3
3
8
-->
@whiteflame
I actually forgot about that from the signups page, so thanks for bringing that up again. That does make your reasoning make a lot more sense to me, and it does make confirmation-role analysis much more meaningful. Which I actually really don't like from a game design standpoint, but we may as well take advantage of it.
Earth
Earth's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 3,202
3
4
8
Earth's avatar
Earth
3
4
8
-->
@Vader
I feel like the logic Austin is laying down points to him being Town, not mafia. Its possible that if I had a choice between Hammerer or Miller that I would pick Hammerer so at least I can be confirmed on Day 1. Even if you dislike the role/affiliation confirmation thing, getting role confirmed isn't anything to sneeze at.
whiteflame
whiteflame's avatar
Debates: 27
Posts: 5,293
4
6
10
whiteflame's avatar
whiteflame
4
6
10
-->
@Casey_Risk
I feel you, though like you said, I’m going to work work with what I have. It’s important that we take care in determining what suffices as role confirmation, though. There is clearly still room to bluff and there might be significant overlap between certain scum role choices and their chosen Category claims.
WyIted
WyIted's avatar
Debates: 33
Posts: 6,411
3
4
9
WyIted's avatar
WyIted
3
4
9
-->
@Vader
If somebody agrees to let me trade their role for one they passed up I will tell you, because otherwise I would like to attempt it on myself. I let me look and I will tell you 2 that I won't pick for myself if it comes to that though
WyIted
WyIted's avatar
Debates: 33
Posts: 6,411
3
4
9
WyIted's avatar
WyIted
3
4
9
-->
@Vader
Okay 2/3 other ones I can't imagine using so bus driver and redirector

Vader
Vader's avatar
Debates: 30
Posts: 15,174
5
8
11
Vader's avatar
Vader
5
8
11
-->
@Earth
I feel like the logic Austin is laying down points to him being Town, not mafia. Its possible that if I had a choice between Hammerer or Miller that I would pick Hammerer so at least I can be confirmed on Day 1. Even if you dislike the role/affiliation confirmation thing, getting role confirmed isn't anything to sneeze at.

As I said before, I have a different philosophy about negative utility that it seems like everyone doesn't agree on. I didn't scum read him for it but I'm pointing out my opinion that I would've went for the role that does the least amount of negative utility to town.

I 100% agree that role confirmation is nothing to scoff at. Hell, I chose a role that would role confirm me as well but that's because it can technically have positive utility compared to the others I were given. His specific category was negative utility which harms the town. IMO, I would choose something that is lesser town damaging and that is my philosophy.



Vader
Vader's avatar
Debates: 30
Posts: 15,174
5
8
11
Vader's avatar
Vader
5
8
11
-->
@WyIted
Hmm ok gotcha thanks. Gives good insight

Vader
Vader's avatar
Debates: 30
Posts: 15,174
5
8
11
Vader's avatar
Vader
5
8
11
Honestly I have a slight lean of town for Wylted because of his other roles

Wylted is deffo the player to take risks, especially in games that he is town in by dueing role analysis and behavior deduction. I could totally see choosing roles that are a bit more out there and riskier to make a smarter play. It alligns with what he does

+ it role confirms him
ILikePie5
ILikePie5's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 15,634
3
7
10
ILikePie5's avatar
ILikePie5
3
7
10
As in, saying what our other options were besides the role we chose?
Correct. It sheds more information. Cause scum have 2 categories to fake claim from that can give us more information
ILikePie5
ILikePie5's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 15,634
3
7
10
ILikePie5's avatar
ILikePie5
3
7
10
-->
@WyIted
Oh, for no particular reason what role number did you prefer your role be changed to? 
If yall trust me, 1. If not, 4. 
WyIted
WyIted's avatar
Debates: 33
Posts: 6,411
3
4
9
WyIted's avatar
WyIted
3
4
9
-->
@ILikePie5
I trust you. Mainly because I think scum would have more thought out opinions on what role they want and be more committed. If a lot of people scum read you though than I will pick 4 even if I continue to trust you
ILikePie5
ILikePie5's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 15,634
3
7
10
ILikePie5's avatar
ILikePie5
3
7
10
-->
@Savant
Thoughts? You're usually the one who starts out making accusations.
I have some information to move things along if need be, but I would like to reserve it for now until we get everyone to state their reads and thoughts 
ILikePie5
ILikePie5's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 15,634
3
7
10
ILikePie5's avatar
ILikePie5
3
7
10
-->
@Casey_Risk
Pie has been weirdly quiet this game. I don't know if that's necessarily alignment indicative -- he as scum would know that suddenly going quiet would be a very noticeable behavioral shift -- but I would like to see more from him regardless.

Null on Vader for now. I disagree that Hammerer was a poor choice in comparison to Austin's other options, but I don't really scumread him for his thought process.

I am going to vote for Pie for now because I want to hear more of his perspective on this game.

VTL Pie
Fair. I’m actually out of the country right now. I get back on Tuesday. I’ll be on a plane for basically all of tomorrow so I’ll try to be active during layovers.

As I told Savant. I have information based on my role that will be very useful to town; I will wait to disclose till everyone comments.
ILikePie5
ILikePie5's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 15,634
3
7
10
ILikePie5's avatar
ILikePie5
3
7
10
-->
@Vader
Role confirmation =/= affiliation confirmation

Especially in this game too
Why not?
ILikePie5
ILikePie5's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 15,634
3
7
10
ILikePie5's avatar
ILikePie5
3
7
10
-->
@WyIted
I trust you. Mainly because I think scum would have more thought out opinions on what role they want and be more committed. If a lot of people scum read you though than I will pick 4 even if I continue to trust you
Either is fine imo. 1 will be more helpful to us but it requires a lot of trust. 4 is safer. Basically high risk high reward vs safe.
ILikePie5
ILikePie5's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 15,634
3
7
10
ILikePie5's avatar
ILikePie5
3
7
10
Right now, I dislike both Vader and Austin.

I feel good about Whiteflame and Casey

Wylted is like a tug of war on both sides right now.



Earth, Savant, GP are null
Lunatic
Lunatic's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 9,297
3
3
6
Lunatic's avatar
Lunatic
3
3
6
Official Vote Count:

Vader- 1/5- Austin
Pie- 1/5- Casey
ILikePie5
ILikePie5's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 15,634
3
7
10
ILikePie5's avatar
ILikePie5
3
7
10
Rereading rn while I have time
ILikePie5
ILikePie5's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 15,634
3
7
10
ILikePie5's avatar
ILikePie5
3
7
10
-->
@Greyparrot
Challenge accepted.

I have a one-time ability to undo a lynch. After someone is lynched and their role is revealed, I can use my power to bring them back into the game. However, they’ll return as an ordinary vanilla townie. This ability (obviously) cannot be used on mafia members.
What is your category and what were your other options?
ILikePie5
ILikePie5's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 15,634
3
7
10
ILikePie5's avatar
ILikePie5
3
7
10
-->
@WyIted
I can change a role so anyone who regrets it just tell me what number the role they prefer is. It's a 1x ability.

What’s your category and names of other roles
AustinL0926
AustinL0926's avatar
Debates: 33
Posts: 2,513
3
5
9
AustinL0926's avatar
AustinL0926
3
5
9
I think Vader is probs town, the way he keeps leaning into this point when other players are disagreeing is something that comes from a place of genuine belief.

unvote
AustinL0926
AustinL0926's avatar
Debates: 33
Posts: 2,513
3
5
9
AustinL0926's avatar
AustinL0926
3
5
9
Wylted's approach continues to be towny. If I got mislynched last game for mishandling a role claim, I kinda expect I'd behave exactly as Wylted here in terms of transparency.
ILikePie5
ILikePie5's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 15,634
3
7
10
ILikePie5's avatar
ILikePie5
3
7
10
-->
@Earth
@whiteflame
@Savant
@WyIted
@Casey_Risk
VTL Austin

I think we should lynch Austin for a couple of reasons. First, it can help prove GP’s role. Second, the fact that Austin has been so adamant that the fact his role is confirm’s him as town. Austin is experienced enough that he knows role confirmation =/= affiliation confirmation by any means. Third, I believe he scum slipped in this paragraph:

“Pretty sure this hard confirms me as town, since it'd be atrocious from a balancing perspective to give scum a useless when town has seven non-negative utility PRs.”
As Whiteflame mentioned Lunatic never mentioned that scum would get options in categories to scum, so how does he know that scum would be “given” a useless [role]. 

Now the second part to this is my role that I need to put today anyways in case I die. My category is Passive and my role is Informed. Per this role, I was given important information relating to scum that no one else knows (besides scum themselves).

Here is the info:

Mafia started with two roles each. The first to prove the category they know to be fake one to help prove their fake category, and one every night role from a special selection of roles exclusive to mafia. Even though scum have a total of 4 roles, they can use one role per NP aside from the NK.
Now being me, I picked Luna’s brain a lot and I got some other stuff out of him because the info was confusing. If scum have a passive role (ie Hammerer from one of the categories) they can still use an active role at night. Functionally, scum can use two active actions at night + NK assuming their “town role” is passive. If their “town role” is active, they have to waive a mafia action at night in place of the the active “town role.”

Now how does this affect Austin. He’s the only one that came out saying he’s confirmed town just because he has a negative utility role that is “confirmable.” He also cited balance which we know is wonky this game, but read the paragraph he said before. He knows that scum were given roles from the two fake categories. No one here besides scum and me know that mafia were given functional town roles in the two fake categories. The paragraph shows Austin being one of them. Not to mention his confidence about role confirmation equaling affiliation confirmation. It’s 100% a scum slip, which is why I wanted everyone to comment and genuinely slip before I outted my role.
WyIted
WyIted's avatar
Debates: 33
Posts: 6,411
3
4
9
WyIted's avatar
WyIted
3
4
9
-->
@ILikePie5
What’s your category and names of other roles
I assume you are catching up so I'll let you catch up. 2 other roles of mine are redirected and bus driver and manipulative
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 26,713
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@ILikePie5
protection, other roles was
Doctor
Bulletproof
Lynchproof