Choose Your Role DP1

Author: Lunatic

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#61
WyIted
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@whiteflame
Yes manipulation. For sure. I actually thought I was scum when I got it, particularly since I got a text from at somebody to get in discord which I have been inactive in for like 4 months. Had to read the message more carefully to figure it out.
#62
whiteflame
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@WyIted
Yeah, Luna mentioned trying to contact you on Discord about the game, so that tracks.
#63
Earth
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@WyIted
Whats your role? Can you change someone's role after Grey vanillaized them?
#64
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@ILikePie5
Thoughts? You're usually the one who starts out making accusations.
#65
Vader
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My role is pretty easily verifiable as it's role.
#66
Vader
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I am a bit skeptical of Austin's choice. I am using a lot of role analysis and decision making and I feel like if Neg Util is down, I would do something that would likely put the town in the least amount of risk possible versus the Hammerer role. 
#67
Savant
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@Vader
I am a bit skeptical of Austin's choice.
Is that a scum read? Or you're just questioning his judgment?
#68
WyIted
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@Earth
I don't think I will be able to change a vanillaized person. I can ask but I doubt I get a straight answer. Do you think it's worth looking into, if so AI will but again it is one shot and I am using it tonight on some volunteer
#69
WyIted
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My role is named "role changer"
#70
Savant
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@Vader
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@WyIted
I could see WyIted's role being scum, in which case it's in his best interest to claim early and build trust. If WyIted's role is town, I'm not sure why he would reveal it so early.
#71
WyIted
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@Savant
I revealed it early in case anyone wasn't happy with the role they chose, so I can help them with their buyers remorse.

The other tactic I considered was swapping a role for one of my scum reads to mess up their games plan but I also thought, you know I should just keep it simple and try to get them lynched.
#72
WyIted
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I believe I can also change my own role if nobody wants to change theirs. Haven't confirmed yet though
#73
whiteflame
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@Vader
My role is pretty easily verifiable as it's role.
No one has really discussed this yet, but role verification could matter a great deal more in this game than usual. Scum have incentive to fake claim a role that exists in one of the two Categories they know town won't occupy. So it stands to reason that they won't be able to completely verify whatever role they claim. The flip side of that, though, is two-fold:

- Scum might have roles that could straddle two or even three Categories and simply claim their actual role (or some similar variant) and a different Category, or
- Scum could present their role as something it is not, but make it seem as though they verified it

So "verifiable" matters a great deal, but the context of what is verified and how matters as well. None of this is to say you should claim, I'm just writing out my thoughts on how we should view verifiable claims.

I am a bit skeptical of Austin's choice. I am using a lot of role analysis and decision making and I feel like if Neg Util is down, I would do something that would likely put the town in the least amount of risk possible versus the Hammerer role. 
I'd also like to know whether you're sussing him or not. I probably would have made the same decision in his shoes, but I understand why others might choose differently.

#74
whiteflame
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@Savant
I could see WyIted's role being scum, in which case it's in his best interest to claim early and build trust. If WyIted's role is town, I'm not sure why he would reveal it so early.
I'm not giving it a full townread by any means, but I could at least see why he would claim it early as town for the same reason: to build trust. He demonstrates his role in the middle of the DP, it's confirmed, that role confirms him and locks him into his Category. Like I said to Vader above, I think there's some value to role verification especially if the role applies very specifically to a single Category, but there's room for these things to be faked and we should consider that.

By contrast, I can see a reason to keep it hidden in order to use it on your scum partner after several claims have come down. There's value in knowing what counters exist to your role after you've selected it, but there's even greater value in being able to switch things up and make things more advantageous to the scum team. I don't think WyIted would try and poll the field so to speak if he was scum, since he'd be given other clear potential targets and be asked why he didn't choose them. It's a riskier choice that builds less trust if he makes a selection that's not widely agreed upon.

#75
Vader
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@Savant
That's also a good point. With the variability of choosing characters it can be a scum read or just bad choice on town. I have to rethink my whole perception of that now lol good point

Original thought it just bad choice but I want to see how Austin is behaviorally
#76
Savant
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@whiteflame
Good point.
#77
Vader
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@whiteflame
My role is pretty easily verifiable as it's role.
No one has really discussed this yet, but role verification could matter a great deal more in this game than usual. Scum have incentive to fake claim a role that exists in one of the two Categories they know town won't occupy. So it stands to reason that they won't be able to completely verify whatever role they claim. The flip side of that, though, is two-fold:

- Scum might have roles that could straddle two or even three Categories and simply claim their actual role (or some similar variant) and a different Category, or
- Scum could present their role as something it is not, but make it seem as though they verified it

So "verifiable" matters a great deal, but the context of what is verified and how matters as well. None of this is to say you should claim, I'm just writing out my thoughts on how we should view verifiable claims.
Yep true. I also have to use my role pretty wisely for the most part as well so I don't think it is beneficial to claim this DP. But I can guarantee once I claim and use it, it verifies me having the role

I am a bit skeptical of Austin's choice. I am using a lot of role analysis and decision making and I feel like if Neg Util is down, I would do something that would likely put the town in the least amount of risk possible versus the Hammerer role. 
I'd also like to know whether you're sussing him or not. I probably would have made the same decision in his shoes, but I understand why others might choose differently.
Savant made a good point about it being a bad choice versus scummy. Right now I would say it's more leaning of a bad choice but I haven't seen Austin talk so his behavior throughout the game could influence. But it's something I have in the back of my mind

#78
AustinL0926
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Quick thoughts:

Think that GP's role is town and easily confirmable

I townread Savant taking initiative early on, I remember him being a lot more passive as scum although it's been a while.

Casey pushing back on massclaim is good, shows towny thought process.

WF and Pie are fine

Wylted's role is probably town. From a balance perspective IMO, it's just a straight-up bad role to give to mafia. And it's confirmable. Also kinda townread him saying he thought he was initially scum off  the role.

Savant paying attention to Pie is good.

I don't like Vader's behavior, feels like he's trying to set up a scumread on me early. Whether my decision was pro-town is separate from whether my role is town, and it feels like he's deliberately obfuscating that. He said it's leaning towards a poor choice, but imo that demonstrates lack of nuance in regards to how bad my role really is (it's not, it's disables in LYLO/MYLO and it functionally doesn't change the lynch target if everyone's aware of it) as well as whether it can be a mafia role (unless you think Luna would give confirmable negative utility role to scum for funsies, it's literally just the standard negative utility role archetype given to town).

Comfortable putting some pressure here for now.

VTL Vader




#79
AustinL0926
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Also, I can make a pretty strong logical argument for being mechanically confirmed.

First of all, my role is real. It's verifiable, confirmable, lynch me if it doesn't confirm, etc.

If negative utility was one of the roles given to mafia: what would the other possible roles in the category be? Almost all negative utility roles are negative utility to town - Miller, Gravedigger, etc. I could think of Hated being a negative utility role in general, but other that, it really doesn't make sense to give this category to mafia.

That aside - town has seven non negative utility PRs, scum has two PRs. Making one of those PRs negative utility is atrociously unbalanced.


#80
AustinL0926
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Like whiteflame's thoughts on the last page, broadly align with mine.
#81
Savant
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@AustinL0926
I don't like Vader's behavior, feels like he's trying to set up a scumread on me early.
It did feel a bit like he was trying to scum read you while putting the accusation entirely on me. I honestly wasn't sure what his implication was at first and I wasn't saying I scum read you, but then he kept name-dropping me when saying you could be scum. Been a while since I've seen Vader's behavior though, and it's possible he just misunderstood me, so I can't say for sure it's scummy of him.
#82
Savant
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@Vader
Might as well tag you
#83
whiteflame
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Time to start keeping a running list of claims.

WyIted: Role Changer - Category: Manipulative
Austin: Hammerer - Category: Negative Utility
GP: Reviver - Category: Protective

Yes, I looked up GP's role and settled on it being called "Reviver" from what I've seen. On Mafiascum, it's categorized as "Protective" rather than "Voting," the latter of which was my initial read of it and, in retrospect, is blatantly wrong. A note that this role usually only exists in "no reveal" games to avoid creating confirmed innocent players and, if a game does have reveals like ours (All lynches will flip immediately after death), can result in the following:

If a game is not No Reveal but includes revival in some form, it is more likely that the revived player has secretly received a non-Town Role PM in the interim than that they are the same role as before.
GP said they return "as an ordinary vanilla townie," but there may be unknown effects on the player resulting from their revival. Admittedly, I don't have any reason to believe this other than the contents of that page on Mafiascum and my own suspicions since this role is so powerful, but it's something to consider.

So that leaves 6 Categories that have not yet been claimed:

Investigative
Voting
Communication
Passive
Role Prevention
Killing


#84
WyIted
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@whiteflame
He demonstrates his role in the middle of the DP, it's confirmed, that role confirms him and locks him into his Category.
I use it during the NP
#85
WyIted
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@AustinL0926
Casey pushing back on massclaim is good, shows towny thought process.

Casey is notoriously bad at fake claiming, so I wouldn't read too much into the push back against a mass claim tbh

#86
whiteflame
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@WyIted
Ah, I misunderstood that. Then... yeah, it was pretty risky to claim it. I still slightly townread the choice, but it puts you in the crosshairs for obvious reasons.
#87
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@AustinL0926
I'm going to take a look through these reads a bit later, want to see if I agree with your read on Vader in particular. Given that he's softclaimed a role that should be very specific to a Category, I'm hesitant to push for his role claim, but I understand if there's sufficient reason to scumread him behaviorally. Haven't given his posts a close enough read to evaluate that.
#88
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@ILikePie5
Alright, I've been out for most of today, so I'll post various thoughts here.

It seems to me like Luna intentionally designed this game to include many confirmable roles. GP's role is obviously confirmable, Wylted's is confirmable, Vader's is apparently confirmable, and I'll just state here that mine is as well. That's nearly half of us with a confirmable role.

I'm really not sure where WF is going with post #73. Claiming a category that isn't yours is a good way to get instantly CC'ed which is suicidal, so I think it's pretty clear that scum are just going to claim whatever their real category is whenever they claim. I guess scum could claim their partner's category, but then if one of them dies... see Pie's Recycled Roles. Put simply, I don't place any importance on whether a role is verifiable or not, unless that role is exceedingly unlikely to be scum, like GP's role.

Wylted on the other hand... Tough to say. I think the nature of it leans town, but it could also easily be a scum role. The way he announced his role at the beginning could be a townie thing, trying to build trust. Or it could be a scum thing, trying to build trust. Tbh though, one thing I've learned about Wylted is that trying to analyze him through the lens of game theory never really works. I always have to rely on my gut 100%, and I always end up being right when I do that. I'll know whether he's scum or town by the end of the DP.

Pie has been weirdly quiet this game. I don't know if that's necessarily alignment indicative -- he as scum would know that suddenly going quiet would be a very noticeable behavioral shift -- but I would like to see more from him regardless.

Null on Vader for now. I disagree that Hammerer was a poor choice in comparison to Austin's other options, but I don't really scumread him for his thought process.

I am going to vote for Pie for now because I want to hear more of his perspective on this game.

VTL Pie
#89
Vader
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@AustinL0926
I am going to respond to this because I think you are reaching. I said you made the wrong choice in my opinion. Which I still stand by. I can go into game analysis but if the town neg utility is actually town, then you want to choose something that is going to be the less detrimental to town IMO. That's how I would play it and that's how I think. I even pointed out that I don't scum read you for it because it could be a bad choice and even pointed out to WF. It's Dp1 and we are working with very little info.
#90
Vader
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@Savant
This is completely not true. In fact if anything I didn't put any blame on you because I shifted my analysis and perception on it