That felt cringe and inauthentic. We should lynch whiteflame and mharman.
Mharman first. I am more confident in that scum read
Inheritance Cycle Mafia DP2
Posts
Read-only
Total:
329
-->
@WyIted
I am merely saying Lunatic is leaning on theme analysis more heavily than normal and at detriment to his skills with behavioral analysis. Very strong behavioral analysis skills normally that are going to waste this game.
Given that this is a game where he knows the theme very well, I'm not terribly surprised that he's focusing on theme analysis. Fine enough if you think he's putting his attention in the wrong place, but that doesn't make what he has to say stupid.
My focus with the cop role is not normally to catch scum but to prevent mislynched. I could see a case for lunatic being scum but what was far more important to me, is clearing his name. I also don't value roles as much as most of you do but my only concern would be if he were a doctor or some other light doctor. Earth seems town read by a lot of people so not really a mislynch target as far as what I can see.
So you were concerned about the existence of a possible doctor or similar role, but you still decided to target an unclaimed player? I'm not clear on this reasoning. If your goal was just to prevent a mislynch, why not focus on Cerulean, who was actively sussed for a great deal of the last DP and claimed a role that became virtually useless when he claimed it? If you goal was to prevent a mislynch first and foremost, that makes your decision to target Luna all the stranger.
Also by clearing lunatic it allows him to more easily lead town which I think is a valuable thing for an experienced player, far more valuable than his delayed Vig power which he uses on the wrong person anyway
You clearly believed he was leading town astray by pushing on you at the end of the last DP with some of the same logic that he's using this DP. His being experienced and a potentially effective leader was clearly undermined by what you'd already seen, but that was still your aim for some reason? Also, saying that it's more valuable than the delayed Vig is based entirely on hindsight. We're discussing why you chose to target Luna. You didn't know his role before you Vanillaized him, so the value of your using it is only applicable in retrospect.
-->
@WyIted
That felt cringe and inauthentic. We should lynch whiteflame and mharman.
...Alright then, guess we have very different perceptions of what I'd normally do and argue.
-->
@whiteflame
We do. I also am willing to answer any question you have that will help you analyze me. However I find it odd that you are making the case that I am scum to me. You are telling me what behaviors you find scummy. That's not something for me to address. I can't help what you think. What's for me is to provide you any information that you ask of me that I find appropriate to give.
Not sure why you are making the classic mistake of trying to convince scum they are scum. If you feel that way than the other players is who you should make the case to
-->
@Lunatic
If a lynch of me looks inevitable than you should get all your behavioral reads in, because I don't think the scum team wants somebody who will be confirmed town around.
-->
@WyIted
We do. I also am willing to answer any question you have that will help you analyze me. However I find it odd that you are making the case that I am scum to me. You are telling me what behaviors you find scummy. That's not something for me to address. I can't help what you think. What's for me is to provide you any information that you ask of me that I find appropriate to give.Not sure why you are making the classic mistake of trying to convince scum they are scum. If you feel that way than the other players is who you should make the case to
Then you're clearly misunderstanding my aim. I'm trying to understand your justifications for what you did so that I can come to a conclusion myself, not because I already believe you are scum. Your justifications don't make a lot of sense to me yet, and if by the end of this conversation they remain that way, I'll address this to everyone else and get their thoughts. Until then, my focus is on understanding you and, in particular, why you seem so dismissive of Luna's argument.
Since you cut off, I'm guessing you submitted this early on accident, so I'll wait to see what else you post.
Catching up.
-->
@whiteflame
@WyIted
It sounds like this role could have gone to multiple characters (at least the Cop portion of it due to the mindreading being a more common power), but given that he figured out your character from your Vanillaizer role, it's not like it's outlandish.
Investigating and controlling are two different things.
Cop investigates, and there are much better characters to be a cop, like non-evil characters.
Galby is the undisputed choice for controlling other people's minds or manipulating them, so connecting that with a vanillaizer is understandable.
I repeat: The proposition (A) that Wylted is a vanillizer is very truthy right now as the only reason that Lunatic would lie about that is if he's scum too, which doesn't make sense.
It was Pie's decision to match the role with the character.
The other two propositions are:
B) Wylted is Galbatorix
C) Wylted is scum
I think we can dismiss ~B, who would claim to be a villain when they aren't the villain?
In my mind (C) is correlated with (B) weakly and also correlated with ~(D): Vanillizer, but I can't disable scum and I have to wait for them to fail to admit to being vanillized to know they are scum.
Best lies are half truths. If he was scum he wouldn't ever vanillize other scum, but while scum vanillizer for galby makes some theme-sense a good guy vanillizer that disables other good guys but not bad guys doesn't.
Maybe Pie thought otherwise, maybe it's the half-lie and Wylted is scum. It's more to go on than anything anyone else has said.
-->
@ADreamOfLiberty
Appreciate the detailed thoughts.
It's a given that WyIted is a Vanillaizer at this point, it's mainly a question of whether he's also the Cop. I'll admit, I think it's an interesting way to have an investigative role be present in a game like this while simultaneously making targeting town result in something of a mixed bag, with them getting Vanillaized and learning that they're town. I'm not sure how this would work on something like the Godfather, which appears town when investigated by the Cop but is actually scum, but chances are a role like that wouldn't exist in a game with the role WyIted describes.
In terms of whether this particular character would be the Cop, it sounds like both you and Luna aren't buying that. There are games where the fit between character and role isn't super tight, but from what I've seen of the roles claimed so far and of my own, it does appear tighter than what you're suggesting is going on with WyIted's role. As such, he very well could be a scum Vanillaizer, which is where the role normally lands anyway to prevent instances of scum being turned Vanilla. It's a little weird as well that it's a compulsive role (he must use it every night phase) when it's also a Cop. The utility is clearly there regardless of the target. I guess some people might hesitate to use it anyway just in case they hit someone on town with a useful power role, but if it comes paired with a Cop, it's going to be worth the risk for most people.
So you were concerned about the existence of a possible doctor or similar role, but you still decided to target an unclaimed player?
I said "my only concern would be" . So it was the only concern and one I was okay with.
If you goal was to prevent a mislynch first and foremost, that makes your decision to target Luna all the stranger.
You know who DP1 is. The person who barely escapes being lynched is town read the next day etc.
You clearly believed he was leading town astray by pushing on you at the end of the last DP with some of the same logic that he's using this DP. His being experienced and a potentially effective leader was clearly undermined by what you'd already seen, but that was still your aim for some reason?
That sort of thing doesn't cross my mind. I don't think he loses all value just because he is wrong about me, not do I think he is incapable of changing his mind and course correcting. I also didn't really think he has or had any capability of getting me lynched.
-->
@Lunatic
Do you just reveal an affiliation upon death? I missed where you had claimed
No, just the role name. So for myself, it would be something like "Cerulean is the Oracle."
You understand why I called it weak now, yes? Its use is already limited if I get nightkilled and now that I've claimed it, that will never happen.
Very strong behavioral analysis skills normally that are going to waste this game.
This was why I was so uneasy about Lunatic on Day 1. A lot of his posts were talking about claim viability rather than anything behavioral.
-->
@Cerulean
Very strong behavioral analysis skills normally that are going to waste this game.This was why I was so uneasy about Lunatic on Day 1. A lot of his posts were talking about claim viability rather than anything behavioral.
This is the first theme I’ve played in quite a while where I feel I actually know and understand a theme well enough to do proper thematic investigation. As a youth I considered Paolini a god amongst men and thought of him as one of the greatest writers ever and it consistently blew my mind that he started this series when he was only 16. I had read Eragon at least 3-4 times while waiting for the following books in the series to come out. I do feel like I am factoring in behavior though with my read on Wylted and it feels wierd to me that you and others keep dismissing a lot of key elements to my case on him also being behavioral.
I can list the behavioral aspects of my scum read on him for you if that makes it easier.
1. His targeting of me last night is one of the prime reasons I’ve amped up my suspicion on him. It was incredibly a reckless move and one that he had not indicated in the slightest. He never once mentioned scum reading me in the last day phase. Now he’s saying he was trying to clear me for town confirmation which makes it even sussier. Who cops someone to town clear them? Doesn’t that indicate inside knowledge that he already knew I was town? Also I think the motivation for targeting makes more sense for him to do as scum because he knew I was onto him last day phase and if I was an investigation role it would make sense to get rid of me as an issue. I had kind of expected to be roleblocked or night killed if was right about Wylted being suspicious and so when it turned out he vanillized me it really only made my scum read of him harder. Before the day phase though I was actually strongly trying to consider a world where Wylted was town. I primed him yes, but I wasn’t fully planning on igniting if my read on him ended up changing later on.
2. The way he claimed. He was resistant to claiming when I asked and it made no sense to me since the role aspect was already revealed. At that point there is literally no reason not to claim. When I asked him why he claimed he said it was to help catch someone via CC. Who in their right mind would claim to be Galbatorix THE MAIN VILLAIN, did he think he was going to catch claiming that?
2A. Why didn’t he claim this immediately? He came out the gate saying his role was scummy but why not his character? You can say lack of theme knowledge but that’s not true is it? Based on his own description of his role it should be pretty clear his character is a villain so why didn’t he also say my “my role and character might come across as scummy”?
2B. Why did he randomly decide that it his previous logic of CCing someone didn’t apply once I had guessed at his character (to another person btw, wasn’t even talking to him)? The way he claimed immediately after I called out his character seemed like an “oh fuck he guessed my character” move. I feel like he panicked in that moment and decided to rely on WIFOM to spin him claiming the antagonist being a good thing for him. The fact that it’s worked so well for him is a large indication of why this was probably a smart move on his part but the fact that so many people bought into it at first is also what raises red flags for me.
Cerulean I ask you please consider these points and not dismiss everything I am saying as theme analysis only, because I am trying to use both. I realize that some of my theme analysis seems mumbo jumbo nonsense but if you focus on what I am actually saying about Wylted you realize that I am not simply targeting him for being a villain.
Btw I posted this from my mobile so there is probably a lot of wierd auto corrects and grammar mistakes so my apologies in advance.
-->
@Casey_Risk
Galbatroix is namedropped in my PM, but I'm not sure if that means anything. Has Casey posted yet? What are your thoughts?
VTL Casey
-->
@WyIted
If a lynch of me looks inevitable than you should get all your behavioral reads in, because I don't think the scum team wants somebody who will be confirmed town around.
It would help if you answered some of my questions in regards to how you claimed, why for instance you didn’t claim to have a scummy character along side a scummy role, why you decided claiming was suddenly a helpful option when I had guessed your character even though you were previously saying you thought it would be useful to CC someone and finally who the hell you thought would be claiming galabatorix in the first place that you would even be able to CC.
I know you think I am being tunnel vision here but I’m afraid I am barely getting an audience here and so far ADOL and Whiteflame seems to be the only ones indulging my suspicions. If I let the focus shift to others it’s incredibly likely I just get night killed tonight and everyone just continues to buy into the WIFOM argument “Wylted wouldn’t claim the main antagonist he’s clearly town” that so many seem to be buying into and you just get ignored for the rest of the game. If you are scum, this is probably literally my only chance to get you lynched. You yourself even dismissed me as a threat saying you don’t think I have the capability to get you lynched. I believe you and that’s why I can’t let up, if I don’t survive this day phase you get a free skate to the end game for making a ballsy claim that no one seems to wanna question. So if it seems I’m being tunnel vision it’s because you left more questions than answers for me and I don’t feel many of them have satisfying answers. Quite frankly I scum read you, and if I’m not pursuing a scum read I might as well not be posting or contributing to the game in any way.
Official Vote Count:
Wylted (1/5) - Lunatic
Mharman (1/5) - Wylted
Whiteflame (1/5) - Cerulean
-->
@Lunatic
I will answer to the best of my ability. I downloaded Firefox on my new Google Pixel phone and the copy paste is wonky. So will do my best. Let me know if I missed anything.
why for instance you didn’t claim to have a scummy character along side a scummy role,
I didn't know he was an antagonist. I was thinking maybe some sort of anti hero like Hitler or something that just comes across as bad .
why you decided claiming was suddenly a helpful option when I had guessed your character even though you were previously saying you thought it would be useful to CC
The character sounded kind of psychic to me and from my POV I think psychic would obviously equate to cop. The CC reasoning was BS but I also didnt want to admit it was BS due to ego. Once you guessed my character I just thought the scum team probably could guess also.
You yourself even dismissed me as a threat saying you don’t think I have the capability to get you lynched. I believe you and that’s why I can’t let up,
That frustration is understandable and I have a huge issue with the fact that dead players are usually ignored despite being the only trustworthy players.
you left more questions than answers
I have some of the same questions for myself. Like right now I am annoyed that I investigated you instead of Cerulean whose role was definitely useless but also was in a lot of people's scum pool. I am annoyed that I claimed anything DP1. I mostly did so because the game felt like it was dying and I wanted to provoke reactions and discussions.
Quite frankly I scum read you, and if I’m not pursuing a scum read I might as well not be posting or contributing to the game in any way.
I would suggest looking for more town reads and scum reads. If I get lynched and you get NKed you are useless in future dps. Although given that everyone here ignores dead players anyway, it's probably a moot point
-->
@ILikePie5
I voted Casey. Is this a mistake?
Oh wow Im fucking stupid. Nvm.
-->
@Earth
I voted Casey. Is this a mistake?
Casey died NP1.
-->
@Earth
Has your read on Casey changed yet?
-->
@WyIted
Casey is totes scum.
Anyway, I can place Cerulean in my town pile. I think Lunatic redeemed himself a bit and I can treat him at least lean town. In this instance, I think one or two players should out their characters.
-->
@WyIted
Nice to tag me on your responses.
It seems like most of your responses are that you didn't really care about issues you presented. You worried about hitting the doc, but it didn't affect your choice of target. You pointed out what you consider to be poor reasoning from Luna and a focus on theme analysis since early in DP1, but your mentality was that he would make a good leader for town regardless because you had faith in him changing his mind. They're both issues you thought were relevant, enough so that they've been brought up a couple of times, but not important enough to sway your decision. I'd probably find that scummy coming from virtually anyone else, but coming from you, it actually makes some sense.
-->
@Earth
voted Casey. Is this a mistake?
Town slip
Catchup notes:
I kinda townread Earth for dumb reasons, and that's that if he was scum, he obviously would know who the NK is and wouldn't derp like that.
I think Luna's conviction on Wylted feels really genuine, and I'd probs just have him as 100% town if Wylted flips scum, and pretty towny even if Wylted doesn't flip scum. He's going very hard on Wylted in a way that pretty clearly isn't theatre. Even if Wylted is town, then there's no reason for Luna to lead the charge instead of just letting Wylted bury himself.
I'm not really buying Wylted's responses: it feels like he's deliberately skirting around the issues with his behavior and daring people to challenge him on it.
whiteflame and Mharman both feel roughly fine, Cerulean's responses show some nuanced thought that I like.
Where’s austin
Oh, Luna just noticed the same thing I did lol.
Lmao I posted that right as he posts wtf
We planned it in scumchat, right down to the minute.
-->
@AustinL0926
*high fives my scum buddy *
Cerulean's claim is neutral for me btw. I wouldn't exactly call it a weak investigative role, it actually seems pretty strong, but I can see him believing it isn't. I think the way he handled the claim is towny, especially since it felt like he wasn't really trying to self-preserve yesterday and accepting that he wasn't a huge loss for town.