The trinity doctrine.

Author: Mall
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#91
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That is not what St. Thomas Aquinas teaches.

In fact he teaches the opposite and that these are not three but one God.

St. Thomas Aquinas begins his teaching on the Trinity by asserting that "God is Father, God is Son, and God is Holy Spirit," and that these are not three but one God. Further, God's Word is also part of his existence. Aquinas calls speech the offspring of the intellect, which he conceives as its father.
I never said they were not God. I said they are not each other.

St. Thomas is very clear in De Trinitate. The term "God" refers to the Nature of the Trinity and is a term applied to the three Persons, who are distinct persons, meaning not each other.

Have you actually studied this? To say God the Father is God the Holy Spirit is explicitly condemned. The Church Fathers condemned it. 

What you assert is called modalism. It was condemned in the early Church by the Church Fathers.

#92
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@MAV99
I never said they were not God. I said they are not each other.

St. Thomas is very clear in De Trinitate. The term "God" refers to the Nature of the Trinity and is a term applied to the three Persons, who are distinct persons, meaning not each other.
There is only one God

If each Person of the Trinity is distinct and yet fully God, then should we conclude that there is more than one God? Obviously we cannot, for Scripture is clear that there is only one God: “There is no other God besides me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none besides me. Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other” (Isaiah 45:21-22; see also 44:6-8; Exodus 15:11; Deuteronomy 4:35; 6:4-5; 32:39; 1 Samuel 2:2; 1 Kings 8:60).

Having seen that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are distinct Persons, that they are each fully God, and that there is nonetheless only one God, we must conclude that all three Persons are the same God. In other words, there is one God who exists as three distinct Persons.

If there is one passage which most clearly brings all of this together, it is Matthew 28:19: “Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.” First, notice that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinguished as distinct Persons. We baptize into the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.

Second, notice that each Person must be deity because they are all placed on the same level. In fact, would Jesus have us baptize in the name of a mere creature? Surely not. Therefore each of the Persons into whose name we are to be baptized must be deity.

Third, notice that although the three divine Persons are distinct, we are baptized into their name (singular), not names (plural). The three Persons are distinct, yet only constitute one name. This can only be if they share one essence.
Have you actually studied this? To say God the Father is God the Holy Spirit is explicitly condemned. The Church Fathers condemned it. 
Is it correct to say God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit?
"The Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit" are not names for different parts of God, but one name for God because three persons exist in God as one entity. They cannot be separate from one another.
What you assert is called modalism. It was condemned in the early Church by the Church Fathers.
What is modalism in Christianity?
Modalism teaches that only one God exists and that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are different modes or manifestations of the one God. It is still one god in different manifestations.

#93
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@Mall
It's not necessarily my argument, but here is a really good commentary on John 1:1-5 which points out the Triune nature of God, in the Bible. 

 John 1:1–5
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life, and the life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. Read More
In the beginning was the Word echoes the opening phrase of the book of Genesis, “In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.” John will soon identify this Word as Jesus (John 1:14), but here he locates Jesus’ existence in eternity past with God. The term “the Word” (Gk. Logos) conveys the notion of divine self-expression or speech and has a rich OT background. God’s Word is effective: God speaks, and things come into being (Gen. 1:3, 9; Ps. 33:6; 107:20; Isa. 55:10–11), and by speech he relates personally to his people (e.g., Gen. 15:1). John also shows how this concept of “the Word” is superior to a Greek philosophical concept of “Word” (logos) as an impersonal principle of Reason that gave order to the universe. And the Word was with God indicates interpersonal relationship “with” God, but then and the Word was God affirms that this Word was also the same God who created the universe “in the beginning.” Here are the building blocks that go into the doctrine of the Trinity: the one true God consists of more than one person, they relate to each other, and they have always existed. From the Patristic period (Arius, c. A.D. 256–336) until the present day (Jehovah’s Witnesses), some have claimed that “the Word was God” merely identifies Jesus as a god rather than identifying Jesus as God, because the Greek word for God, Theos, is not preceded by a definite article. However, in Greek grammar, Colwell’s Rule indicates that the translation “a god” is not required, for lack of an article does not necessarily indicate indefiniteness (“a god”) but rather specifies that a given term (“God”) is the predicate nominative of a definite subject (“the Word”). This means that the context must determine the meaning of Theos here, and the context clearly indicates that this “God” that John is talking about (“the Word”) is the one true God who created all things (see also John 1:6, John 1:12, John 1:13, John 1:18 for other examples of Theos without a definite article but clearly meaning “God”).
All things includes the whole universe, indicating that (except for God) everything that exists was created and that (except for God) nothing has existed eternally. Made through him follows the consistent pattern of Scripture in saying that God the Father carried out his creative works through the activity of the Son (cf. 1 Cor. 8:6; Col. 1:16; Heb. 1:2). This verse disproves any suggestion that the Word (or the Son, John 1:14) was created, for the Father would have had to do this by himself, and John says that nothing was created that way, for without him was not any thing made that was made.


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@Jesusistheway

It's not necessarily my argument, but here is a really good commentary on John 1:1-5 which points out the Triune nature of God, in the Bible.

So god is a spirit, he appears to us as the Holy Spirit, he also appeared to us as Jesus. But the three are one.


#95
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@Shila
I agree they are God.

I never denied that.

I deny that each person is the same one person because that is what "God the Father appears to us as the Holy Spirit" means, which is what you said. To say that is to say that they are the same person which is wrong.

One God, 3 distinct Persons. Each Person is not the other.



#96
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@Shila
So god is a spirit, he appears to us as the Holy Spirit, he also appeared to us as Jesus. But the three are one.
Is this a question or a statement?

#97
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@MAV99
I agree they are God.

I never denied that.

I deny that each person is the same one person because that is what "God the Father appears to us as the Holy Spirit" means, which is what you said. To say that is to say that they are the same person which is wrong.

One God, 3 distinct Persons. Each Person is not the other.
It was first posted to you, there are three persons in both examples in post#15. How did you miss it?
Repeated here from post#15

For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit. But the Godhead of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit is all one. … So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God.

1 John 5:7
There are three in heaven who prove it is true. They are the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit. These three are one

#98
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@Shila
For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit. But the Godhead of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit is all one. … So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God.
Yes, I read that. I agree with that. It is the following statement I disagree with because of what it means:

So god is a spirit, he appears to us as the Holy Spirit, he also appeared to us as Jesus.
You here are using language that implies sameness between two persons. You have to be careful. It would be better to say it as "God is a Trinity of three Persons. God the Son became Man and The Holy Spirit is the Comforter or Paraclete."

Like I said, I do not think you intend heresy. But I think you are using language that is ambiguous and leads one to think that there is a sameness between two persons. That is why I brought in Modalism. That is the type of language they used when discussing this. You have to be careful how you say it.
#99
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@MAV99
For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit. But the Godhead of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit is all one. … So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God.
Yes, I read that. I agree with that. It is the following statement I disagree with because of what it means:

So god is a spirit, he appears to us as the Holy Spirit, he also appeared to us as Jesus.
You here are using language that implies sameness between two persons. You have to be careful. It would be better to say it as "God is a Trinity of three Persons. God the Son became Man and The Holy Spirit is the Comforter or Paraclete."
My statement does not imply sameness between two persons,
So god is a spirit, he appears to us as the Holy Spirit, he also appeared to us as Jesus.
There cannot be a bigger difference between appearing as the Holy Spirit and appearing as Jesus. One is the spirit and the other Jesus the human incarnation of God.

Like I said, I do not think you intend heresy. But I think you are using language that is ambiguous and leads one to think that there is a sameness between two persons. That is why I brought in Modalism. That is the type of language they used when discussing this. You have to be careful how you say it.
How is calling one the Holy Spirit and the other Jesus implying sameness between two persons. Even the language used implies they are different in every way.
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#100
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@Shila
I don't believe you're grasping. You will not find the words "there is one spirit " in 1 John 5
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@MAV99
When you say no, Father God is not the holy spirit, but you affirm he is holy and spirit, you're double talking.

This is what traps the trinitarians in their twisted up doctrine.
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@Jesusistheway
Scripture teaches there is one spirit and father god is the holy spirit. So there's not two natures there. According to the scriptures, God which is spirit who is the father is holy. Now you can say that's 1 John 5 and 7 but there is no distinct persons. Distinct titles, distinct names yes.
#103
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@Mall
This is what traps the trinitarians in their twisted up doctrine.
Actually it shows you cannot understand distinction between the concepts we are talking about here. 

I'm not surprised. You do that in your debates too.

Let me make it clear to you: "Holy Spirit" is a term we use to mean the Third person of the Trinity.

"Holy" and "Spirit" taken separately are words we can use to describe each Person.

Is it clear now? You are equivocating different concepts. 
#104
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@Mall
Well, we have other examples as well, where all three are referred to as a plurality, but also as ONE God. For instance (and this time I will link the source. Apologies for not doing that before.)

Genisis 1:26
Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” Read More
Let us make man in our image. The text does not specify the identity of the “us” mentioned here. Some have suggested that God may be addressing the members of his court, whom the OT elsewhere calls “sons of God” (e.g., Job 1:6) and the NT calls “angels,” but a significant objection is that man is not made in the image of angels, nor is there any indication that angels participated in the creation of human beings. Many Christians and some Jews have taken “us” to be God speaking to himself, since God alone does the making in Gen. 1:27 (cf. Gen. 5:1); this would be the first hint of the Trinity in the Bible (cf. Gen. 1:2).


Also in 2 Corinthians 3:17
Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. Read More
the Lord is the Spirit. Different explanations have been offered for this difficult and compressed statement: Paul may be saying that Christ and the Spirit function together in the Christian’s experience—i.e., that the Lord (Christ) comes to us through the ministry of the Spirit (though they are still two distinct persons). Another view (based on the reference in v. 16 to Ex. 34:34, “Moses went in before the LORD to speak with him”) is that the “Lord” here refers to Yahweh (“the LORD”) in the OT (that is, God in his whole being without specifying Father, Son, or Spirit). In this case, Paul is saying that Yahweh in the OT is not just Father and Son, he is also Spirit. In either case, Paul’s primary point seems to be that the Christian’s experience of the ministry of the Spirit under the new covenant (2 Cor. 3:3–8) is parallel to Moses’ experience of the Lord under the old covenant—i.e., that the Spirit (under the new covenant) sets one free from the veil of hard-heartedness (vv. 12–15). Paul regularly distinguishes Christ from the Holy Spirit in his writings, and that is surely the case even here, since later in this verse he speaks of the Spirit of the Lord. Moreover, it should not be supposed that Paul is teaching that any of the members of the Trinity (the Father, the Son, or the Spirit) are the same person, which would be the heresy of modalism; instead Paul is stressing the gracious unity of purpose among the three persons of the Trinity. There is freedom, though unspecified in the context, most likely refers to the many kinds of freedom that come with salvation in Christ and with the presence of the Holy Spirit: that is, freedom from condemnation, guilt, sin, death, the old covenant, and blindness to the gospel, as well as freedom that gives access to the loving presence of God.


And by the way, in order to accurately read scripture, we must consider the totality of it. So, there are many other places referring to all three heads of the Trinity as God. If you would like, I can provide them. 


#105
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@Shila
My statement does not imply sameness between two persons,
So god is a spirit, he appears to us as the Holy Spirit, he also appeared to us as Jesus.
"He" is singular. You are using it here to mean The Holy Spirit and Jesus. Just like the Modalists did. Using it as the antecedent of "God" makes it ambiguous based on a true understanding of the notion of the Trinity. You need to be more clear.

This is basic grammar and use of words. This is why the Catholic Church is so particular about what words you use.

#106
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@Mall
I don't believe you're grasping. You will not find the words "there is one spirit " in 1 John
There is more than one. “They are the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit. These three are one.”
1 John 5:7
There are three in heaven who prove it is true. They are the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit. These three are one

#107
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We need toconsider that someone as disturbingly radical as Christ, as powerful inactions, presence, and legacy as he was, could only be expected to incitewidely varying interpretations of his life.

The Bible says you are all wrong.

Isaiah55:8-9
For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither areyour ways my ways," declares the LORD. "As the heavens are higherthan the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than yourthoughts.”

1 Corinthians 8:1-2 
Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth. And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.

1 Corinthians 13:9-10 
For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

1 Corinthians 7:7
For I would that all men were even as I myself. But every man hath his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that.

#108
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@MAV99
My statement does not imply sameness between two persons,
So god is a spirit, he appears to us as the Holy Spirit, he also appeared to us as Jesus.
"He" is singular. You are using it here to mean The Holy Spirit and Jesus. Just like the Modalists did. Using it as the antecedent of "God" makes it ambiguous based on a true understanding of the notion of the Trinity. You need to be more clear.
He stands for masculinity/male. God is portrayed using masculine pronouns. Jesus is also a man and likewise so is the Holy Ghost.
God is referred to using masculine pronouns in Catholic teaching and practice. Though Church teaching, in line with its Doctors, holds that God has no literal sex because God possesses no body but is referred to using masculine pronouns in the Bible.

Is the Holy Spirit referred to as he in the Bible?
Why Did Jesus Call the Holy Spirit "He"? - 
In the New Testament, yes… it's true–according to some translations of the Greek–Jesus is seemingly calling the Spirit a “He.” But, we must remember… this is a translation. Scripture, at least as far as New Testament translations go, refer to the Holy Spirit as “he.” Most translations do.

The Bible says Jesus is unique in both His person and His purpose. He wasn't just some spiritual individual during His time on earth; He was both God's Son (John 3:16) and God Himself—God in human flesh (1 Timothy 3:16). Yes, He was fully man, but He was also fully God (Colossians 2:9). Jesus claimed to be God.

If you prefer instead:
There is more than one. “They are the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit. These three are one.”
1 John 5:7
There are three in heaven who prove it is true. They are the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit. These three are one
This is basic grammar and use of words. This is why the Catholic Church is so particular about what words you use.
God is referred to using masculine pronouns in Catholic teaching and practice. Though Church teaching, in line with its Doctors, holds that God has no literal sex because God possesses no body but is referred to using masculine pronouns in the Bible.

Is the Holy Spirit referred to as he in the Bible?
Why Did Jesus Call the Holy Spirit "He"? - 
In the New Testament, yes… it's true–according to some translations of the Greek–Jesus is seemingly calling the Spirit a “He.” But, we must remember… this is a translation. Scripture, at least as far as New Testament translations go, refer to the Holy Spirit as “he.” Most translations do.

The Bible says Jesus is unique in both His person and His purpose. He wasn't just some spiritual individual during His time on earth; He was both God's Son (John 3:16) and God Himself—God in human flesh (1 Timothy 3:16). Yes, He was fully man, but He was also fully God (Colossians 2:9). Jesus claimed to be God.

#109
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@Sidewalker
We need toconsider that someone as disturbingly radical as Christ, as powerful inactions, presence, and legacy as he was, could only be expected to incitewidely varying interpretations of his life.

The Bible says you are all wrong.

Isaiah55:8-9
For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither areyour ways my ways," declares the LORD. "As the heavens are higherthan the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than yourthoughts.”

1 Corinthians 8:1-2 
Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth. And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.

1 Corinthians 13:9-10 
For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

1 Corinthians 7:7
For I would that all men were even as I myself. But every man hath his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that.
None of the verses you quoted are from Jesus.

#110
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@Shila
I am not saying you are wrong to use the masculine pronoun.

I am saying you are wrong to use it to refer to two Persons of the Trinity in the same sentence, which can imply sameness.

I am pointing out what is an ambiguity that the Catholic Church was quite adamant about making clear.
#111
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@MAV99
I am not saying you are wrong to use the masculine pronoun.

I am saying you are wrong to use it to refer to two Persons of the Trinity in the same sentence, which can imply sameness.
How is the sentence implying sameness?
So god is a spirit, he appears to us as the Holy Spirit, he also appeared to us as Jesus.
God appears to us as the Holy Spirit, he also appeared to us as Jesus. God is appearing to us as two different entities. Jesus and the Holy Spirit.
It proves : They are the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit. These three are one.

1 John 5:7
There are three in heaven who prove it is true. They are the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit. These three are one
I am pointing out what is an ambiguity that the Catholic Church was quite adamant about making clear.
The Catholic Church quotes the same verse I used to make their position clear.

1 John 5:7
There are three in heaven who prove it is true. They are the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit. These three are one

#112
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@MAV99
This is what traps the trinitarians in their twisted up doctrine.
Actually it shows you cannot understand distinction between the concepts we are talking about here. 

I'm not surprised. You do that in your debates too.

Let me make it clear to you: "Holy Spirit" is a term we use to mean the Third person of the Trinity.

"Holy" and "Spirit" taken separately are words we can use to describe each Person.

Is it clear now? You are equivocating different concepts. 
You contradict yourself here.
First you claim Holy Spirit" is a term we use to mean the Third person of the Trinity.

Then you split the word Holy and Spirit to describe each person. But the term is used to describe the Third person of the Trinity. The father, the son and the Holy Spirit.
#113
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@MAV99
Post#95
I agree they are God.

I never denied that.

I deny that each person is the same one person because that is what "God the Father appears to us as the Holy Spirit" means, which is what you said. To say that is to say that they are the same person which is wrong.

One God, 3 distinct Persons. Each Person is not the other.
Ever here you contradict yourself.

Post#76
They are the same Substantially.
They are not the same person.
All are God. Each one is God. But they are not each other. We cannot say the Father appears as the Holy Spirit. That would imply they are the same Person.
You first claim “they are the same substantially.”
Then you claim “they are not the same person.”
Then you claim “All are god. Each one is God”

That would add up to 3 Gods The Father, son and Holy Spirit.
But that goes against Christians worshipping a single God as in Monotheism.
#114
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We need toconsider that someone as disturbingly radical as Christ, as powerful inactions, presence, and legacy as he was, could only be expected to incitewidely varying interpretations of his life.

The Bible says you are all wrong.

Isaiah55:8-9
For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither areyour ways my ways," declares the LORD. "As the heavens are higherthan the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than yourthoughts.”

1 Corinthians 8:1-2 
Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth. And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.

1 Corinthians 13:9-10 
For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

1 Corinthians 7:7
For I would that all men were even as I myself. But every man hath his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that.
None of the verses you quoted are from Jesus.
Look up in the sky! It's a bird! It's a plane, no its Non-Sequitur Man!

Luke 18:19
"Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone."

Mark 10:18
And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], God.

Matt 19:17
And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], God

Luke 18:19
And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none [is] good, save one, [that is], God.

John 10:30
I and the Father are one.

John 14:28
"My Father is greater than I"


#115
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@Shila
You contradict yourself here.
First you claim Holy Spirit" is a term we use to mean the Third person of the Trinity.

Then you split the word Holy and Spirit to describe each person. But the term is used to describe the Third person of the Trinity. The father, the son and the Holy Spirit.
Do you how logic works? There is this thing called the siginificatio in logic. It is the thing we are talking about. The same words can be used to talk about different things.

For example: I can describe the Congress as united. I can say someone who is tired is in a certain state of being. But if I say "United States", we all know I am speaking of the country, not a bunch of tired Representitives.

The name we attribute to the Third Person is "Holy Spirit"

The word "holy" is also an adjective and can be used to describe each Person.
The word "spirit" is a noun and is an attribute of all 3 Persons.

The two words together "Holy Spirit" is simply how we refer to the Third Person.

Different significatio. Does that clear it up? This really isn't that hard to understand. 
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@Shila
That would add up to 3 Gods The Father, son and Holy Spirit.
But that goes against Christians worshipping a single God as in Monotheism.
No it does not.
The term "God" refers to the nature of the Trinity which is of 3 Persons. That is what I said and how I said it above in the post you quoted is how St. Thomas Aquinas presents it.

Have you actually studied this? It seems to me you don't quite understand what The Catholic Church actually teaches.
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@Shila
How is the sentence implying sameness?
Because words mean something.

When you give a singular idea and use it singularly to attribute it to two things, you get sameness.

That is how it works.
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@MAV99
No. Where in the scripture we can read that the holy Spirit is the third person?

I ask  you to demonstrate that here just like I have you would in any debate.
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Matthew 28, 19 gives us the Trinity.
"Go forth baptizing them in the name of the Father and of The Son and of the Holy Spirit."

It is the teaching of theologians who have studied this, that these three are Persons. The Third Person is the Holy Spirit because of His procession from The First and Second Person.

It is the terminology they use to help describe what is going on.
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@Jesusistheway
Does the scripture teach that there is only one spirit?