-->
@Shila
Scripture say o fool , slow of heart.
The trinity doctrine.
Posts
Hot
Total:
153
-->
@MAV99
The name we attribute to the Third Person is "Holy Spirit"The word "holy" is also an adjective and can be used to describe each Person.The word "spirit" is a noun and is an attribute of all 3 Persons.The two words together "Holy Spirit" is simply how we refer to the Third Person.Different significatio. Does that clear it up? This really isn't that hard to understand.
The Holy Spirit is the third person of the Trinity, equal in nature, power, and glory with the Father and the Son, and is to be worshiped .
It is Holy and a spirit unlike Jesus who came in human form. Jesus is not referred to as a spirit. Jesus is referred to as the son of God.
Get your facts right.
-->
@MAV99
Your post Post#76They are the same Substantially.They are not the same person.All are God. Each one is God. But they are not each other. We cannot say the Father appears as the Holy Spirit. That would imply they are the same Person.
That would add up to 3 Gods The Father, son and Holy Spirit.
But that goes against Christians worshipping a single God as in Monotheism.
No it does not.The term "God" refers to the nature of the Trinity which is of 3 Persons. That is what I said and how I said it above in the post you quoted is how St. Thomas Aquinas presents it.Have you actually studied this? It seems to me you don't quite understand what The Catholic Church actually teaches.
The Catholic Church teaches there is only one God.
Read your post again.
Post#76They are the same Substantially.They are not the same person.All are God. Each one is God. But they are not each other. We cannot say the Father appears as the Holy Spirit. That would imply they are the same Person.
That would add up to 3 Gods The Father, son and Holy Spirit.
But that goes against Christians worshipping a single God as in Monotheism.
-->
@Shila
equal in nature, power, and glory with the Father and the Son,
Which means The Second Person is a spirit. Use a little logic in what you are saying. If He is equal in nature then he is a spirit.
The Second Person of the Trinity is Jesus Christ Incarnate. You most certainly can say that Jesus Christ in His divine nature is a spirit.
-->
@Shila
That would add up to 3 Gods The Father, son and Holy Spirit.
No it does not.
The term "God" refers to the nature of the Trinity, which is one nature, ergo one God. If all have the same nature, which you have agreed with, then all can be predicated of that nature. i.e. we can say each one is God.
That is what the Church teaches. Look it up.
-->
@MAV99
How is the sentence implying sameness?Because words mean something.When you give a singular idea and use it singularly to attribute it to two things, you get sameness.That is how it works.
The sentence contained three entities.
How is the sentence implying sameness?
So god is a spirit, he appears to us as the Holy Spirit, he also appeared to us as Jesus.
God appears to us as the Holy Spirit, he also appeared to us as Jesus. God is appearing to us as two different entities. Jesus and the Holy Spirit.
It proves : They are the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit. These three are one.
If you mean it is the same God behind Jesus and the Holy Ghost. That is exactly what the Trinity is. One God and three persons to form the Trinity.
Not what you posted.
Your Post#76They are the same Substantially.They are not the same person.All are God. Each one is God. But they are not each other. We cannot say the Father appears as the Holy Spirit. That would imply they are the same Person.You first claim “they are the same substantially.”Then you claim “they are not the same person.”Then you claim “All are god. Each one is God”
That would add up to 3 Gods The Father, son and Holy Spirit.
But that goes against Christians worshipping a single God as in Monotheism.
-->
@Mall
It depends on what you mean by spirit.
Every person/human have a spirit.
And the Bible does sometimes refer to demons as "spirits".
But the Bible does specifically point out the Holy Spirit. Mostly in the Gospels and the New Testament Books.
-->
@Shila
I said:
They are the same Substantially.
Meaning they are of the same nature. That quote is directly from the Summa Theologica. That is the teaching of St. Thomas Aquinas.
I then said:
They are not the same person.
meaning that we cannot say The Father is the Son, The Son is the Holy Spirit, etc. That is also directly from the Summa Theologica. That is the teaching of St. Thomas Aquinas.
Nature is not the same thing as personhood. They are two different things.
-->
@MAV99
equal in nature, power, and glory with the Father and the Son,Which means The Second Person is a spirit. Use a little logic in what you are saying. If He is equal in nature then he is a spirit.
The three were equal in nature, meaning equally important in their roles. Each performed a different function.
Jesus was the second person who appeared in human form and could be seen and touched.The third person appeared as the Holy Spirit . Because it was a spirit no one saw it.
The Second Person of the Trinity is Jesus Christ Incarnate. You most certainly can say that Jesus Christ in His divine nature is a spirit.
The Bible tells us Jesus will come in human form as the Messiah. Jesus was the second person who appeared in human form and could be seen and touched.
-->
@MAV99
That would add up to 3 Gods The Father, son and Holy Spirit.No it does not.The term "God" refers to the nature of the Trinity, which is one nature, ergo one God. If all have the same nature, which you have agreed with, then all can be predicated of that nature. i.e. we can say each one is God.That is what the Church teaches. Look it up.
Not what you posted.
Your Post#76They are the same Substantially.They are not the same person.All are God. Each one is God. But they are not each other. We cannot say the Father appears as the Holy Spirit. That would imply they are the same Person.
You first claim “they are the same substantially.
Then you claim “they are not the same person.”
Then you claim “All are god. Each one is God”
That would add up to 3 Gods The Father, son and Holy Spirit.
But that goes against Christians worshipping a single God as in Monotheism.
-->
@Shila
Jesus was the second person who appeared in human form and could be seen and touched.
So did he suddenly lose being the Second Person when he became human?
There is this teaching that is in all the basic catechisms called the Hypostatic union. It means the Second Person of the Trinity took on a human nature and was hypostatically united into one person. It does not mean he lost his divinity.
The three were equal in nature, meaning equally important in their roles.
That is not what the church means when She says "equal in nature". Where did you get such an idea? have you actually studied this or are you trying to make up your own understanding?
-->
@Shila
Not what you posted.
It is actually the same as what I posted but in different words. I was using the words of St. Thomas Aquinas there.
They are not the same person.meaning that we cannot say The Father is the Son, The Son is the Holy Spirit, etc. That is also directly from the Summa Theologica. That is the teaching of St. Thomas Aquinas.Nature is not the same thing as personhood. They are two different things.
No one is saying the son is the Holy Spirit. God is the son Jesus and God is the Holy Spirit. The sameness you objected to actually applies here. God is the same person behind Jesus and the Holy Spirit.
1 John 5:7
There are three in heaven who prove it is true. They are the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit.These three are one
-->
@MAV99
That is not what the church means when She says "equal in nature". Where did you get such an idea? have you actually studied this or are you trying to make up your own understanding?
The three were equal in nature, meaning equally important in their roles.
-->
@MAV99
Not what you posted.It is actually the same as what I posted but in different words. I was using the words of St. Thomas Aquinas there.
You are not using the words of St Thomas Aquinas.
These are not the words of St Thomas Aquinas
They are your words claiming there are 3 gods.
Your Post#76They are the same Substantially.They are not the same person.All are God. Each one is God. But they are not each other. We cannot say the Father appears as the Holy Spirit. That would imply they are the same Person.
That would add up to 3 Gods The Father, son and Holy Spirit.
But that goes against Christians worshipping a single God as in Monotheism.
-->
@Jesusistheway
We're talking about divinity,the God from everlasting to everlasting. That has been the context this whole interaction. Does the scripture teach there is more than one spirit in the Godhead?
-->
@Mall
The Triune God of scripture is comprised of:
God the Father
God the Son
God the Holy Spirit
Yahweh is ONE God but with three persons, or a Triune Nature.
So, The Father and the Spirit have the same divine nature, making them both God, however they are distinct persons.
So, in the Godhead, yes, I guess you could say that there is one Spirit in the Godhead. The Spirit of God, who is God and will forever be God.
-->
@MAV99
I did and it proves your interpretation of St Thomas Aquinas was wrong and I was right.
Listing your post where you said God could not be the same person as the father and is the same as the person of the Holy Ghost. In fact God is all three. God is Father, God is Son, and God is Holy Spirit," and that these are not three but one God.
God is a spirit, he appears to us as the Holy Spirit.
Your post#72No He does not. That would mean the Person if the Father is the same as the Person of the Holy Ghost, which is heresy.
But St Thomas says exactly that it is the same god appearing as the father, as the son and as theHoly Spirit.
God is Father, God is Son, and God is Holy Spirit," and that these are not three but one God.
Your post#76They are the same Substantially.They are not the same person.All are God. Each one is God. But they are not each other. We cannot say the Father appears as the Holy Spirit. That would imply they are the same Person.
But St Thomas says exactly that it is the same god appearing as the father, as the son and as theHoly Spirit.
God is Father, God is Son, and God is Holy Spirit," and that these are not three but one God.
Your post #91Have you actually studied this? To say God the Father is God the Holy Spirit is explicitly condemned. The Church Fathers condemned it.What you assert is called modalism. It was condemned in the early Church by the Church Fathers.
St Thomas says God is Father, God is Son, and God is Holy Spirit," and that these are not three but one God.
Your post#95I deny that each person is the same one person because that is what "God the Father appears to us as the Holy Spirit" means, which is what you said. To say that is to say that they are the same person which is wrong.One God, 3 distinct Persons. Each Person is not the other.
But St Thomas says exactly that the same God is all three. God is Father, God is Son, and God is Holy Spirit," and that these are not three but one God.
-->
@Shila
Did you read what he said about the term "God"?
If you did what did he say?
-->
@Shila
@Jesusistheway
Scripture say if any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God. Everything you're saying I can't read in scripture.
But to us there is one God the father. There is one faith, one baptism, one body, ONE SPIRIT and God is a spirit. And without controversy , great is the mystery of Godliness, God was manifested in flesh. For he took on not the nature of angels, but as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he likewise took part of the same, that through death he may destroy the one that had the power of death.
Everything I stated there you can read in scripture. Once you stick with Scripture according to as it is written, you won't find conflicting statements of the Father not being the holy ghost and saying thus saith Lord where the Lord have not said according to the scriptures. You have no scripture that reads the holy ghost is a or the third person. That's made up theology.
-->
@Shila
"The relations between the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit should be thought of as real relations and not "merely mental relations." They are three persons and three hypostases, meaning they are "subsistent and complete." No divine person can proceed from God unless he proceeds "as the Word, whom we call the Son, or as love, whom we call the Holy Spirit." Therefore, there can never be more than three persons in God."
That means three distinct persons. The Father is not The Son, The Son is not The Holy Ghost,etc.
-->
@MAV99
That means three distinct persons. The Father is not The Son, The Son is not The Holy Ghost,etc.
Here you are wrong again.
God is Father, God is Son, and God is Holy Spirit," and that these are not three but one God.
Therefore God the father is the son and is the Holy Spirit, and that these are not three but one God.
-->
@Shila
Look up "sabellionism" because that is the heresy you just stated.
-->
@Mall
Scripture say if any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God. Everything you're saying I can't read in scripture.
You're probably referring to 1 Peter 4
"The end of all things is near. Therefore, be alert and of sober mind so that you may pray. 8 Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins. 9 Offer hospitality to one another without grumbling. 10 Each of you should use whatever gift you have received to serve others, as faithful stewards of God’s grace in its various forms. 11 If anyone speaks, they should do so as one who speaks the very words of God. If anyone serves, they should do so with the strength God provides, so that in all things God may be praised through Jesus Christ. To him be the glory and the power for ever and ever. Amen."
1 Peter 4:7-11
I believe you can see what I am saying in scripture, given that I have mainly used scripture to back up what I am saying.
All of the elements of a Triune God are in scripture.
But to us there is one God the father. There is one faith, one baptism, one body, ONE SPIRIT and God is a spirit. And without controversy , great is the mystery of Godliness, God was manifested in flesh. For he took on not the nature of angels, but as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he likewise took part of the same, that through death he may destroy the one that had the power of death.
Here you are referring to Ephesians 4:4-6 which says,"
There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all."
And I completely agree with this scripture. One God. It fits well with the Triune Nature of God.
Read a bit farther, and you will find Christ referred to as well.
"7 But to each one of us grace has been given as Christ apportioned it. 8 This is why it[a] says:
9 (What does “he ascended” mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions[c]? 10 He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.) "
Ephesians 4:7-9
Everything I stated there you can read in scripture. Once you stick with Scripture according to as it is written, you won't find conflicting statements of the Father not being the holy ghost and saying thus saith Lord where the Lord have not said according to the scriptures. You have no scripture that reads the holy ghost is a or the third person. That's made up theology.
Technically yes, the Holy Spirit isn't THE third. You could arrange the trinity any way you see fit. It is one God after all. There's no hierarchy in the Godhead.
But in scripture the Holy Spirit is referred to as Lord.
In 2 Corinthians 3:17:
"Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom."
I would like to add some type of consideration that needs to be taken when questioning the trinity, and this is the main reason I don’t attack the trinity despite being atheistic now. I don’t think this is nearly brought up enough yet certainly should be considered, what do we expect to be able to understand? It seems somewhat arrogant to expect to be able to understand through what medium god exists, it just sort’ve seems above us as mere humans to understand it. So although the idea of 3 in 1 is rather confusing and seems idiotic, it seems perfectly consistent with a world where the trinity exists that we wouldn’t understand how it works.
-->
@MAV99
Look up "sabellionism" because that is the heresy you just stated.
From post#129
The three were equal in nature, meaning equally important in their roles. Each performed a different function.
Jesus was the second person who appeared in human form and could be seen and touched. The third person appeared as the Holy Spirit . Because it was a spirit no one saw it.
I am backed by the Catholic Church.
These councils affirmed that God is one, but made the distinction between Person and nature, teaching that the Son and the Holy Spirit are separate Persons who share one divine nature with the Father.
I quoted from your link on St Thomas Aquinas.
God is Father, God is Son, and God is Holy Spirit," and that these are not three but one God.
Now you are calling St Thomas Aquinas and his quote “sabellionism”.
-->
@Shila
Therefore God the father is the son and is the Holy Spirit, and that these are not three but one God.
This is sabellionism. This is what St. Thomas taught against. I am not calling St. Thomas a sabellionist.
What you said in the quote above is what St. Thomas said, but it is out of context and you clearly lack the understanding behind those words he is using. You are twisting them to your own understanding in order to save face.
Nature is not the same thing as personhood.
The nature of God is not determined by what function He is doing.
If you haven't studied the philosophy or theology of this, I would not recommend you keep posting.
-->
@Shila
am backed by the Catholic Church.
No you are not. What you said "God the Father is the Son and The Holy Spirit" is explicitly condemned in the Council of Nicea.
-->
@MAV99
Therefore God the father is the son and is the Holy Spirit, and that these are not three but one God.This is sabellionism. This is what St. Thomas taught against. I am not calling St. Thomas a sabellionist.What you said in the quote above is what St. Thomas said, but it is out of context and you clearly lack the understanding behind those words he is using. You are twisting them to your own understanding in order to save face.
How am I twisting St Thomas’s quote which backs my quote of 1 John 5:7.
1 John 5:7
There are three in heaven who prove it is true. They are the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit. These three are one
St Thomas Aquinas quote: Therefore God the father is the son and is the Holy Spirit, and that these are not three but one God.
Nature is not the same thing as personhood.The nature of God is not determined by what function He is doing.
Jesus was the second person who appeared in human form and could be seen and touched. The third person appeared as the Holy Spirit . Because it was a spirit no one saw it. Each performed a different function.
If you haven't studied the philosophy or theology of this, I would not recommend you keep posting.
I stick to my Catholic teachings which match St Thomas Aquinas.
Therefore God the father is the son and is the Holy Spirit, and that these are not three but one God.
1 John 5:7
There are three in heaven who prove it is true. They are the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit. These three are one