Please Explain, Christians

Author: Owen_T

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Owen_T
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Could any of you perhaps explain the following?

Deuteronomy 22:28-29 (NIV):
If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay her father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.
The punishment for rape is paying a fine and then perpetually raping the victim? That is messed up.

There is also some stuff about slavery. Take Exodus 21:20-21 (NIV):
Anyone who kidnaps someone and either sells them or still has them when they are caught must be put to death. Anyone who kidnaps a man must die. Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a result. However, if the slave recovers after a day or two, they are not to be punished; for the slave is their property.
Right from the word of god: people=property. Don't tell me that literal god had to bend his command around the acceptance of mortals. He's god. Also, even if you weren't going do condemn slavery, why do you have to validate it?

Then, there's the minor genocide god oversees in Joshua 6:21 (NIV):
They devoted the city to the Lord and destroyed with the sword every living thing in it—men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep and donkeys.
What did the babies do?! Generally god at least spares the virgins for the men to rape after they killed their families.

Deuteronomy 21:10-14 (NIV):
When you go to war against your enemies and the Lord your God delivers them into your hands and you take captives, if you notice among the captives a beautiful woman and are attracted to her, you may take her as your wife.

And of course, these people are going to go to heaven. They got permission from god to do these things, whereas atheists completely deserve eternal torment for keeping an open mind.
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@Owen_T
Anyone who kidnaps someone and either sells them or still has them when they are caught must be put to death. Anyone who kidnaps a man must die. Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a result. However, if the slave recovers after a day or two, they are not to be punished; for the slave is their property.
Ah Exodus 21:20-21

Super reliable, that's why I take 22:18 very seriously and always obey it :)
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@Owen_T
The punishment for rape is paying a fine and then perpetually raping the victim
Imagine being raped and then being forced to marry your rapist. Thats Bible's logic.
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@Owen_T
Could any of you perhaps explain the following?

Deuteronomy 22:28-29 (NIV):
If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay her father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.
The punishment for rape is paying a fine and then perpetually raping the victim? That is messed up.
In those days a non virgin would have a hard time finding a partner. It was expected if you raped or had sex with a women you were expected to marry her.
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@Shila
How on earth does that make anything okay? That does not justify literal rape! 

And you didn't even touch on anything else. 
Lemming
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@Owen_T
Hm, still an Atheist, but I'll voice my thoughts some.

Well, for one, didn't Jesus not follow some or other laws exactly,

"Then he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath."
Mark 2:27

Don't Christians believe Jesus fulfilled the New Testament or place the New Testament above the Old Testament or something?
Hence why Christians don't follow all Old Testament laws or something. Like when Christians eat pigs.

Becomes a bit guidelines.
Besides what 'is the Bible?
Maybe a bunch of history, laws in different places and times of history and geography, poetry, wisdom, stories of the folly of man sometimes.

. . .

She doesn't 'have to marry him.

"If her father absolutely refuses to give her to him, he must still pay the bride-price for virgins."
Exodus 22:17

Women didn't have the rights they have today,
People didn't have the food, safety, infrastructure, medicine, so on, that we have today.
Harder for a non-virgin to get married,
Hard for a woman to be a spinster maybe.
Hard for the family if she get's pregnant maybe, even bigger burden.

Even if the girl is lame, blind, or afflicted with leprosy, he is forced to marry her and he may never take the initiative in divorcing her, as [the above verse continues]: "He may not send her away as long as he lives."

"But if out in the country a man happens to meet a young woman pledged to be married and rapes her, only the man who has done this shall die."
Deuteronomy 22:25

I don't speak or read Hebrew

"The word יְפַתֶּ֣ה used in Exodus 22:16 means entices or persuades.
You'll also notice the language used in 22:25 for rape ( וְהֶחֱזִֽיק) differs from the term used in 22:28 ( וּתְפָשָׂ֖הּ). The language in 22:25 must denote force, while the language in 22:28 is softer. I don't disagree that the word וּתְפָשָׂ֖הּ may connotate an element of force, but it is not assumed."
. . .

"Such laws were common around the world until the 1970s."

"Traditionally, the marriage of the perpetrator and the victim after the rape was often seen as an appropriate "resolution" of the situation. Among ancient cultures virginity was highly prized, and a woman who had been raped had little chance of marrying. These laws forced the rapist to provide for their victim."

"Scholars such as Susanne Scholz (2021) have pointed out that the meanings of words in the Hebrew Bible always depend on their context, and Bible translators or commentators often misinterpret terms, miss important nuances, or use euphemisms for sexual violence. Even in modern English, the verb 'to rape' does not necessarily always refer to sexual violence, but could be used metaphorically to describe being subjected to a deeply unpleasant yet non-sexual experience.[11] Similarly, a Hebrew verb such as עָנָה‎ anah usually means 'to rape, to force/violate sexually', but in some non-sexual contexts is best translated as 'to oppress', 'to weaken', and so on. On the other hand, normally non-sexual words may sometimes describe something sexual; a verb such as עָשַׁק‎ 'āšaq usually means 'to crush, to destroy, to oppress', but in one particular Bible verse (Isaiah 23:12) may actually mean 'to rape' in connection with the term 'virgin daughter', as the latter has a special sexual meaning.[12] Biblical Hebrew is also full of euphemisms and sexual slang that may be difficult for modern readers to understand. 'To lie with', 'to know', 'to come to', and 'to uncover the nakedness of' are such examples which, in particular contexts, mean 'to have sex'. Such phrases do not necessarily imply that this sex is forced by one person upon another, and could actually describe consensual sex, but especially if the context of the narrative adds forms of coercion (such as violence and intimidation) upon someone, or claims that this serves as a 'punishment', then 'to rape' becomes a plausible translation."
. . .

"Franca Viola (born 9 January 1948) is a Sicilian woman who became famous in the 1960s in Italy for refusing a "rehabilitating marriage" (Italian: matrimonio riparatore) to her rapist after being kidnapped, held hostage for over one week, and raped frequently. She is considered to be the first Italian woman who had been raped to publicly refuse marriage. She and her family successfully prosecuted the rapist. The trial had a wide resonance in Italy, as Viola's behavior clashed with traditional social conventions in Southern Italy, whereby a woman would lose her honour if she refused to marry the man to whom she had lost her virginity. Franca Viola became a symbol of the cultural progress and emancipation of women in post-war Italy.[1][2][3]"
. . .

"This also comes from a time where rape could also be defined where the woman can consent but her father does not, keep that in mind as well (Heck, rape can even mean him not being a Hebrew makes the act against the statute). Our laws still have a concept like this: statutory rape.

If we abstract a little from the concrete and cultural details and look at the more general precept around it, this law is analogous to our own laws, where the 30 skekls is analogous to how rapists can be obligated to give financial restitution to their victims, and the requirement to marry the victim and can never divorce her can be seen as similar to our own laws that can require a rapist to pay child support if a child results from the rape, that is, that the crime forces its perpetrator into a perpetual obligation to their victim. When interpreted like this, such a law should not seem very strange and disgusting to us."
ADreamOfLiberty
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@Shila
In those days a non virgin would have a hard time finding a partner. It was expected if you raped or had sex with a women you were expected to marry her.
Yea, everybody (educated) knows that.

Deuteronomy makes perfect sense as the result of bronze age elders writing about the moral framework and concepts they had experience with.

It just doesn't make sense as the transcendental and eternal truth as delivered by god to man, to be obeyed for all time.



It was written by men with the biases and irrationality of men at that time. The morality of today is still the morality of men, it still has bias and irrationality, men still claim it's the will of god.


So, as I have said before: To study humanity study history, once you have studied humanity you will be unable to escape the conclusion that ALL epistemology is unreliable except reason. It consumes all other options because the very act of trying to defend another one automatically tries to use reason imperfectly.

Just replace Isaiah 45:5:

Reason is the way to the Truth, and there is no other; apart from reason there is no truth. It will strengthen you, though you have not acknowledged it,


Lemming
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@rosends
I know you're not a Christian, but there's some overlap between Christians and Jews.

What's your take on Deuteronomy 22:28?

I know Owen_T has more questions,
But I'm just curious about the one, since I'm slow in deciphering meanings sometimes.
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@Owen_T
Don't tell me that literal god had to bend his command around the acceptance of mortals.
Well, that should answer the question, right? We're just mortals, so we shouldn't expect the actions of a superior being to make sense to us.

Kidding (sort of).

There are varying interpretations and translations of Deuteronomy 22:28-29 in particular (it's been a while since I've seen these passages posted), but broadly speaking, the Old Testament is Christianity on easy mode. The New Testament is where you get verses like "the wages of sin is death" and "all fall short of the glory of God," which was Paul's way of opining that everyone deserves to be tortured for eternity. Even someone who hasn't sinned yet might be considered a bad person by New Testament standards if their virtue isn't strong enough to make them incorruptible. Compared to that, the God of the Old Testament is pretty tame.

At best, you can defend the Christian God as good by Christian metrics of what makes God "good," and that's about it. Everyone else has different standards God has to meet to be considered "good." If one person thinks no one deserves to go to hell and someone else thinks that all people who commit x crime should be sent to Hell immediately with no opportunity for repentance, then no version of God is going to satisfy both of those people. If one person thinks giving people the ability to sin is bad and another person thinks humans don't have enough free will, same issue. That's why you can't really argue the problem of evil like a math problem...it's usually just decided by who can make the better emotional appeal. Most people have their own strong feelings about what an ideal God should and shouldn't do, so your emotional appeal is as good as mine.
Lemming
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@Owen_T
One view could be

"since the servant is his property
The term "property" here is translated from the Hebrew word "כֶּסֶף" (kesef), which literally means "silver" or "money," but in this context, it refers to the economic value or investment the owner has in the servant. This phrase reflects the socio-economic realities of the time, where servants were considered part of a household's assets. However, it is crucial to understand this within the broader biblical narrative, which includes numerous laws aimed at protecting the rights and dignity of servants, such as the Year of Jubilee and the prohibition against harsh treatment."

There are current and past American laws I imagine, that entail punishment for various actions or failures of actions for individuals in society or individuals in companies.
Like not paying your taxes, probably 'some type of action is taken against people for that,
Or not paying debt, or child support.

America mandates companies give their workers bathroom breaks I assume,
America doesn't mandate that everyone gets free money and doesn't have to work.

Are you bothered that God doesn't fix everything every instant?
Or didn't make the world perfect according to your morals?

Eh, some people like the idea of free will,
Or some people think that we lost the Garden of Eden,
Some people assume there's possibly some unknown reason, since they don't 'quite know what this all is, what we are, came from going to, why.

Personally, I'm still an Atheist though.
. . .

  1. "It is not a synonym to slavery as we know it. A bondman is an intermediate state between being a gentile and converting to Judaism. As long as he serves his master he’s a “half-Jew” and needs to observe all Mitzvot that women observe, incl. all 365 negative ones. After he is sent free he becomes a Jew.
  2. Bondmanship is only possible when the Jews have the Supreme Court of 71, which is only at times of the Temple in Jerusalem.
  3. Becoming a servant is a willing decision, nobody can force a man into this contract. He sells himself for a sum of money, that stays his and can be used when he’s freed back. This contract has a positive side - the master is responsible for providing him with all his basic needs. Sometimes it is worth it."

Heh,
Rowan Atkinson Live - Headmaster kills student
ADreamOfLiberty
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@Savant
so your emotional appeal is as good as mine.
Which means neither is good enough.
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@Lemming
  • "It is not a synonym to slavery as we know it. A bondman is an intermediate state between being a gentile and converting to Judaism. As long as he serves his master he’s a “half-Jew” and needs to observe all Mitzvot that women observe, incl. all 365 negative ones. After he is sent free he becomes a Jew.
  • Jeez with a conversion mechanism like that no wonder Islam took over. All you have to do is say the same thing three times in a row.

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    @ADreamOfLiberty
    neither is good enough
    Different emotional appeals will be "good enough" for different people. Plenty of people feel confident saying what an ideal God ought or ought not to do, and I wouldn't say it's pointless to have that opinion, just difficult to come to an agreement.
    Lemming
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    @ADreamOfLiberty
    Heh.

    Glancing at Wikipedia

    It 'does look to me as though there are/were more procedures for conversion to Judaism than Islam.
    But I don't know how much of an expansionist of their religion Judaism and it's various nations were in the past.

    Though maybe Jews 'did have more traditional slaves in the exact moment that one law about slave beating was spoken.
    Though there have been 'many different kinds of slavery throughout history.
    I just offered it as argument of people having different definitions and systems in different moments of history.
    Lemming
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    "Broadly, the Biblical and Talmudic laws tended to consider slavery a form of contract between persons, theoretically reducible to voluntary slavery, unlike chattel slavery, where the enslaved person is legally rendered the personal property (chattel) of the slave owner. "
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_views_on_slavery#:~:text=20–22).-,Freeing%20a%20slave,the%20Talmud%20codified%20and%20expanded.

    Is it more moral to kill your enemies or enslave them?
    To let your enemies free to attack you again, or to enslave them?
    To rob your enemy of all possessions and likely to die of starvation, or to enslave them?

    Of course there's something to be said for kindness,

    "If your enemy is hungry, give him food to eat; if he is thirsty, give him water to drink."
    "In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head, and the LORD will reward you."

    Burning coals of conscience I hope.
    Receiving kindness, seeing empathy, forgiveness, opportunity for peace.
    zedvictor4
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    @Owen_T
    Hey Owen.

    The Bible is a collection of folk tales, archaic sociology and naive creation theory.

    And shouldn't be taken too seriously.
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    @Lemming
    The laws of relationships and such are intricate and complex. Taking a verse and expecting to explain it in a vacuum is not fruitful. 
    Tradesecret
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    @Owen_T
    Deuteronomy 22:28-29 (NIV):
    If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay her father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.
    The punishment for rape is paying a fine and then perpetually raping the victim? That is messed up. 
    It's actually quite an advanced and merciful solution to the problem in that time and age.  The OT law is not condoning rape. It here is - whether you believe it or not- seeking to address a great crime against the rape victim in an age where ordinarily in every culture in the world, the rape victim was treated less than human. 

    There was no welfare in those days. None.  Females were essentially vessels. And this was the same the world over. Men worked. Men made the money. Men had the power. And in most countries and sub cultures - rape was not an offence.  In most cultures rape was a right.  The only redress most women had if they were raped was if they were already married - and then their husbands could seek the death of the rapist.  Provided of course that the rape occurred in ordinary life and not during a time of war. 

    That's the picture you need to think about when considering this passage. You need to understand the culture of the entire world at the time. Women who were raped - especially single virgins, were left to fend for themselves.  Many became prostitutes. All were considered less than human. 

    The passage above was a law that actually made it EXPENSIVE to rape someone. It would cause the rapist to think twice before raping someone in Israel.  He became responsible for the girl's welfare for the rest of his or her life. This was unheard of in the ancient world. There was no commandment that the raped victim - even if she was married would have to sleep with the bloke. If she decided she wanted to live at her father's house - the rapist couldn't stop her.  But he still had to pay her maintenance for the rest of his life.  The father of the victim girl could also refuse to let his daughter marry the rapist. You didn't quote that verse. But the rapist would still have to pay for the girl for the rest of his life. 

    the point is- the law hit the man where it really hurt. In his pocket. It was expensive to commit rape. None of the nations around Israel had any protection for the victim.  

    This also for the Christian is a law that relates specifically to Israel. It doesn't extend to the Christian - except - in the sense that Christians MUST support laws that protect the victim. Not the perpetrator. 


    There is also some stuff about slavery. Take Exodus 21:20-21 (NIV):
    Anyone who kidnaps someone and either sells them or still has them when they are caught must be put to death. Anyone who kidnaps a man must die. Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a result. However, if the slave recovers after a day or two, they are not to be punished; for the slave is their property.
    Right from the word of god: people=property. Don't tell me that literal god had to bend his command around the acceptance of mortals. He's god. Also, even if you weren't going do condemn slavery, why do you have to validate it? 
    It's a philosophical question of course - about ownership of a person. DO I own myself? Do I have the right to do with my body as I so choose? And how far does that extend? I mean - the basic understanding of a bundle of rights - can it apply to the human body? If I truly own my own body, can't I sell it to someone else? Can I sell my liver or my kidney or my hair? What about myself? Can I sell my body for sex - prostitution? Can I sell it to someone else - for the labor - so I can get paid? Can I sell my body completely with all my rights for the right price? And if not, why not?  

    2000 - 3000 years - slavery was normal. It was moral in EVERY culture in the world. The passage you quote above shows something quite interesting though, doesn't it? Most slaves in those times - were the result of being kidnapped. People would come - and steal. This also is how many people became slaves in America. People would kidnap people from villages in Africa and sell them. 

    Israel however - although it certainly accepted the view that people can own themselves and even sell themselves - did not agree with theft. They didn't agree that someone could be kidnapped to become a slave. And that's what you see above.  that was unique in the time of this writing. It was miles ahead of where people thought. 

    Notice too the insight about being beaten. Interestingly, that's still part of our law today in some respects. If you hurt someone - and they don't die immediately it is not as significant if they die straightaway.  the other thing most people forget when condeming the Bible about slavery is the jubilee. In Israel - ALL Slaves were to be released after 7 years. that was the law.  Effectively their time of slavery was an indenture - a type of mortgage.  that didn't happen in other countries. To buy your freedom was unheard of - for many years. 


    Then, there's the minor genocide god oversees in Joshua 6:21 (NIV):
    They devoted the city to the Lord and destroyed with the sword every living thing in it—men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep and donkeys.
    What did the babies do?! Generally god at least spares the virgins for the men to rape after they killed their families. 
    It's not really genocide. Although clearly it was a command to kill every living thing - including animals. The animals thing is interesting, isn't it? It shows something significant doesn't it? It wasn't about looting another village. It wasn't about taking their wives to plunder. It means something AWFUL must have happened for God to make such a command. 

    It's interesting you focus on those who are put to death - rather than for what occurred that made God make such a command.  You talk about the babies - and while that certainly is important - what must have the adults done that was so bad - that God would make such a command to kill everyone and wipe them off the map completely?   And you might conclude - that well - there's nothing that could be that bad.  And that of course would be a subjective assessment - since God had a different view. 



    Deuteronomy 21:10-14 (NIV):
    When you go to war against your enemies and the Lord your God delivers them into your hands and you take captives, if you notice among the captives a beautiful woman and are attracted to her, you may take her as your wife.

    And of course, these people are going to go to heaven. They got permission from god to do these things, whereas atheists completely deserve eternal torment for keeping an open mind.

    People who win battles plunder. That was how things happened back then. There was no Geneva Convention that people had to subscribe too. And more than that - what would the captured people be expected to do - and how would they live?  They would have the choice - of being a slave, being a wife, or being put to death. You tell me. - what would you prefer? 

    You consider these bad laws. But in the time - they were the most generous and merciful laws of the day. Do they compare to our day? I don't know. I think for many of us - they would be far better laws than what we have. 



    WyIted
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    @Owen_T
    The punishment for rape is paying a fine and then perpetually raping the victim? That is messed up.
    If you raped a woman in those days then it made her prospects for marriage impossible and condemned her to a life of poverty. This was the best solution out of a lot of bad options. 

    Right from the word of god: people=property. Don't tell me that literal god had to bend his command around the acceptance of mortals. He's god. Also, even if you weren't going do condemn slavery, why do you have to validate it?

    Slaves are technically property and you weren't going to end slavery with a command back then. However by ordering masters to treat their slaves kindly it made situations better.



    WyIted
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    @Owen_T
    And of course, these people are going to go to heaven. They got permission from god to do these things, whereas atheists completely deserve eternal torment for keeping an open mind.
    Nowhere does the bible say atheists get eternal torment.  With multiple wives being a thing and knowing that a society with a lot of single males brings with it a lot of social problems, marrying captive brides seems like a good solution to stabilize society
    Best.Korea
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    @WyIted
    If you raped a woman in those days then it made her prospects for marriage impossible and condemned her to a life of poverty. This was the best solution out of a lot of bad options. 
    Which person's opinion says that its best? Did you ask a woman what she actually wants? No, you didnt!
    Lemming
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    @Tradesecret
     "the jubilee. In Israel - ALL Slaves were to be released after 7 years. that was the law.  Effectively their time of slavery was an indenture - a type of mortgage.  that didn't happen in other countries. To buy your freedom was unheard of - for many years."

    Did that apply to 'all slaves,
    Or only slaves who practiced or adopted Judaism?
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    @Owen_T
    Please Explain, Christians.

    Christians for centuries have been trying to explain away and give reason and excuses for these vile biblical  verses for centuries now. This is a rod they have made for their own back because they gave adopted a god from an age they didn't understand, from a culture they didn't understand and a society they didn't understand.
    FLRW
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    Elon Musk says he is a Christian. Remember that he has 11 kids with 3 women. Isn't that Christ like?
    Shila
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    @Owen_T
    How on earth does that make anything okay? That does not justify literal rape! 

    And you didn't even touch on anything else. 
    Being forced to marry someone for life for raping her was seen as proper retribution.

    brooke1532
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    @FLRW
    Remember, Judas Iscariot was one of Jesus' 12 disciples and he was the one that betrayed Him to be crucified. Just because someone claims to be a Christian does not mean they really know Jesus.
    Shila
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    @brooke1532
    Remember, Judas Iscariot was one of Jesus' 12 disciples and he was the one that betrayed Him to be crucified. Just because someone claims to be a Christian does not mean they really know Jesus.
    Judas Iscariot knew Jesus very well. He was a disciple of Jesus. That was why he was able to betray Jesus. He had the receipts.
    brooke1532
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    @Shila
    Yes he knew Jesus very well... I was meaning know in the sense of being a believer in Jesus as savior. Judas obviously knew a lot about Jesus because he followed His ministry for 3 years, but Judas was not a true Christian. Just the same there are many people who know a lot about the Bible and Christianity (like Elon Musk) and might claim they are Christian, but they don't know Jesus as their Lord and Savior.
    Shila
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    Yes he knew Jesus very well... I was meaning know in the sense of being a believer in Jesus as savior. Judas obviously knew a lot about Jesus because he followed His ministry for 3 years, but Judas was not a true Christian. Just the same there are many people who know a lot about the Bible and Christianity (like Elon Musk) and might claim they are Christian, but they don't know Jesus as their Lord and Savior.
    Jesus picked Judas to betray him so the prophecy of his death would be fulfilled.

    So, why did Jesus choose Judas? The reason that Jesus chose Judas was so that the Scriptures would be fulfilled. In Jesus’s High Priestly prayer in John 17, Jesus says in verse 12, “While I was with them, I kept them in Your name, which You have given me, I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scriptures might be fulfilled.” Jesus was not surprised by Judas’s betrayal. Judas was the “son of destruction.” Rather, Jesus chose Judas knowing fully that he had a wicked and unbelieving heart that would lead to betrayal (John 6:64; 70-71) in fulfillment of the Scriptures.
    WyIted
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    @Best.Korea
    Which person's opinion says that its best?

    God's 



    Did you ask a woman what she actually wants? No, you didnt!