Please Explain, Christians

Author: Owen_T
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#181
Shila
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Yeah. I guess God thinks I deserve worse life than Hitler. God knows best.
Proverbs 9:10-12
The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, and knowledge of the Holy One is understanding. For through wisdom your days will be many, and years will be added to your life. If you are wise, your wisdom will reward you; if you are a mocker, you alone will suffer.

#182
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@Shila
if you are a mocker, you alone will suffer
I guess I am worse person than Hitler. Not sure why, but God seems to think so. Like, why didnt God made Hitler socially retarded so Hitler cannot rise to power? I guess I am primary target.
#183
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@Best.Korea
if you are a mocker, you alone will suffer
I guess I am worse person than Hitler. Not sure why, but God seems to think so. Like, why didnt God made Hitler socially retarded so Hitler cannot rise to power? I guess I am primary target.
It was obviously easier for God to make you a reject than Hitler who was already the leader of Germany.
#184
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@Owen_T
It's nice to be appreciated, though my knowledge is pretty shallow,
I still like talking about religion from time to time, and having a reason to Google it.

I don't know why the Biblical God didn't/doesn't give/make his existence more obvious.
(Theoretically speaking as I'm still an Atheist)

If one goes by the Bible literally,
Even 'when people saw miracles or believed in God,
They sure disobeyed and lacked faith a lot.
Bible is full of such. A lot.

Even contemporary life, has many believers,
Who yet act towards their own interests and desires, commit crimes, sins.
Or individuals with a 'seeming spiritual blindness, physical sight not equating to spiritual insight.

New International Version
"This is why I speak to them in parables: “Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand."

Course it seems probable that 'some people would believe if they saw, or understand what they hear.
But maybe they wouldn't see or hear what was 'important.

Perhaps there is something in our uncertainty, yet wanting the right of existence.

"He [God] wants them to learn to walk and must therefore take away His hand; and if only the will to walk is really there He is pleased even with their stumbles. Do not be deceived, Wormwood. Our cause is never more in danger, than when a human, no longer desiring, but intending, to do our Enemy's will, looks round upon a universe from which every trace of Him seems to have vanished, and asks why he has been forsaken, and still obeys."
— The Screwtape Letters, letter VIII, C. S. Lewis

I don't think the above 'sufficiently answers your question,
But it is where my mind went with the question, minus 25%-50% after I accidentally closed my internet browser and had to retype it.

.

Darn, that 'does sound like one of those God commanded sections.

Well, one 'could argue that God did not want any chance that the Israelites would adopt any of their culture.

In the fourth generation your descendants will come back here, for the sin of the Amorites has not yet reached its full measure.”

Of course one could argue that babies 'have no culture,
Might have been a lot of babies though, as well as children,
What's the cut off for when one has no culture?

Did the Israelites have enough means to take care of all the babies of everyone they killed?
I suppose one could argue God could have just made food,
But then why do we have to hunger or die at all?

. . . Religious people often believe in an afterlife,
Is a human lifespan that long compared to X? I say X as I don't know what an afterlife 'would be.

But of course such thinking leads towards a disregard of life,
And potential of ends justifying means if in Gods name,
Course God also says don't murder.

Begging the question on my part I think, but there is a reason this was the last question from your initial post I answered, and even when I answered, tries to avoid.
Ah well, gets me thinking on the question at least, I suppose.



#185
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@Owen_T
Thinking on it some more,
I suppose part of it depends on one's interpretation of God.

Some depict God as impersonally viewing people throughout their lives, blank face, blank stare, unfeeling, uncaring, just observing, not helping.

But I imagine such does not fit some other's view of God, who they claim as good,
Claim we to be made in Gods image.

I imagine such people view God as being in our pain 'with us.

“And the King will say, ‘I tell you the truth, when you did it to one of the least of these my brothers and sisters, you were doing it to me!’

I imagine such people active in their belief in God, their use of the Bibles teachings.

"Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me."

"and in the wilderness. There you saw how the LORD your God carried you, as a father carries his son, all the way you went until you reached this place.”

I imagine they see signs and possibilities in many places.
Though I discount them myself.

Of course, people pick and choose what they like or think is 'right in the Bible,
View it through their own lenses.
But eh, isn't that the way of humans.

#186
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@Lemming
No .
#187
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@Lemming

I imagine they see signs and possibilities in many places.
Though I discount them myself.

Of course, people pick and choose what they like or think is 'right in the Bible,
View it through their own lenses.
But eh, isn't that the way of humans

Jeremiah 23:23-24
23 "Am I only a God nearby," declares the Lord, "and not a God far away? 24 Who can hide in secret places so that I cannot see them?" declares the Lord. "Do not I fill heaven and earth?" declares the Lord.

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#188
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@Mall
Perhaps elaborate on that? 
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#189
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Whatever the answers are to these questions, I have a hunch no amount of googling can resolve them all. People far smarter than I have tried, is it an appeal to authority to trust Einstein and Stephen Hawking simply know better than I do? 

This mystery does provide a certain excitement to dying, though I am quite content living with only my earthly pleasures. If I am wrong, and the Chrisitan god exists, I know that he'll completely understand my reasoning for atheism. Better than I do. If he throws me into "an eternal pit of fire," that's not a god that I want to worship. 
#190
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@Owen_T
I think it is an appeal to authority,
But I also think people (Myself included) often defer to various authorities.

Fair enough.
#191
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@Owen_T
Whatever the answers are to these questions, I have a hunch no amount of googling can resolve them all. People far smarter than I have tried, is it an appeal to authority to trust Einstein and Stephen Hawking simply know better than I do?

This mystery does provide a certain excitement to dying, though I am quite content living with only my earthly pleasures. If I am wrong, and the Chrisitan god exists, I know that he'll completely understand my reasoning for atheism. Better than I do. If he throws me into "an eternal pit of fire," that's not a god that I want to worship.
Jesus is an authority we can appeal to, and he proved it again and again.
His words had authority Matt7.28-29
Matthew 7:28–29 ESV
And when Jesus finished these sayings, the crowds were astonished at his teaching,

for he was teaching them as one who had authority, and not as their scribes.
His words of authority were backed up with demonstrations of his authority over creation
Luke 8:22–25 ESV
One day he got into a boat with his disciples, and he said to them, “Let us go across to the other side of the lake.” So they set out,

and as they sailed he fell asleep. And a windstorm came down on the lake, and they were filling with water and were in danger.

And they went and woke him, saying, “Master, Master, we are perishing!” And he awoke and rebuked the wind and the raging waves, and they ceased, and there was a calm.

He said to them, “Where is your faith?” And they were afraid, and they marveled, saying to one another, “Who then is this, that he commands even winds and water, and they obey him?”
If Jesus says Let us go across to the other side, you will make it to the other side.

#192
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@Lemming
 "the jubilee. In Israel - ALL Slaves were to be released after 7 years. that was the law.  Effectively their time of slavery was an indenture - a type of mortgage.  that didn't happen in other countries. To buy your freedom was unheard of - for many years."

Did that apply to 'all slaves,
Or only slaves who practiced or adopted Judaism?
It's a great question.  The interesting thing is this, though.  

  • In the first place, it exposes the inconvenient truth that not ALL slavery is permanent. 
  • In the second place, it exposes that not all slavery is EVIL. In fact it played a good in that time and place where people couldn't get ordinary short-term loans. 
  • thirdly, it placed a high value on membership. It's not to disimilar to organisational clubs, banks, and businesses which give valuable rights to those who join. 

So the answer to your question is - yes, it applied only to slaves who practised or adopted Judaism.  And given that anyone could join Judaism - and the OT is full of people who did, then you were only excluded if you chose to be.  The question for many would be - is the God of the Jews fairer and more just than the gods of their ancestors?  And I reckon that objectively many thought that the Jewish God was. And many others thought otherwise.  In many ways, it is no different to our world today. 



#193
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@Tradesecret
So the answer to your question is - yes, it applied only to slaves who practised or adopted Judaism.  And given that anyone could join Judaism - and the OT is full of people who did, then you were only excluded if you chose to be.  The question for many would be - is the God of the Jews fairer and more just than the gods of their ancestors?  And I reckon that objectively many thought that the Jewish God was. And many others thought otherwise.  In many ways, it is no different to our world today.

In the time of Jesus, some people were slaves because they were born to slave parents. Others were captured in war and were forced to become slaves.

Judaism is closed because if you’re not born and raised Jewish, you’re strongly discouraged from converting, unless you marry or are adopted into a Jewish family–and even then there are requirements for the process.
#194
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@Shila
In the time of Jesus, some people were slaves because they were born to slave parents. Others were captured in war and were forced to become slaves.
In the time of Jesus, the Romans were the ones running the known world. Yes, the people they captured they made slaves. At that time, many Jews were scattered all around the world as slaves - because they could read and count. That's an interesting part of history too. The Jews were people of the book or scrolls, and so every male could read, mostly by the time they were 12 - do you recall a thing called Bar Mitsva? Even females were encouraged to read. The percentage of them however is something I couldn't indicate. 

Since in the time of Jesus, the Jews weren't the ones in charge, it is hardly likely that OT rules and laws would be applied. And in fact we know that the way the slave system worked in Jesus' time, was basically the Roman one / Greek one - the polytheistic religious position.  In the OT, the laws applying to children born into slavery was different - and people were not allowed to kidnap others. And while in the OT, it is true that many people in war became slaves, that was a better alternative to death.  Remember the Geneva Convention wouldn't appear for thousands of years later. 


Judaism is closed because if you’re not born and raised Jewish, you’re strongly discouraged from converting, unless you marry or are adopted into a Jewish family–and even then there are requirements for the process.
That just is not the truth. Many people become Jews. They did in the OT, they did in the NT. And they still do today. My nephew was recently dating a Jewish girl, and they were to be engaged, but he was required to become a Jew first. Rahab became a Jew. Ruth became a Jew. The OT provides the covenant process of adoption for people to become Jews.  Were there requirements? Of course there were. To join any club, there are requirements. That stands to reason.  

And as for strongly being discouraged? What are you talking about?  No one ever wants someone to leave their own religion and join another. And on the other hand, we don't want every Tom Dick and Harry joining our religion.  that's what gives religions a bad name. When someone can stand up and say I'm a Christian, but you don't actually know what you mean by that - it's just silly.   Jews would be the same. The discouragement is to ensure that only those who are serious do join. In other words, those who care that the religion is more than just a club. 
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#195
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@Shila
I would definitely believe in God if I saw him immediately cease the blowing of the wind, trouble is, for such a large claim as that, I feel like more than one account is needed. In many cases, however, the Bible just states crazy things that don't make any sense, and don't have historical evidence.
#196
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@Tradesecret
In the time of Jesus, the Romans were the ones running the known world. Yes, the people they captured they made slaves. At that time, many Jews were scattered all around the world as slaves - because they could read and count. That's an interesting part of history too. The Jews were people of the book or scrolls, and so every male could read, mostly by the time they were 12 - do you recall a thing called Bar Mitsva? Even females were encouraged to read. The percentage of them however is something I couldn't indicate.

Since in the time of Jesus, the Jews weren't the ones in charge, it is hardly likely that OT rules and laws would be applied. And in fact we know that the way the slave system worked in Jesus' time, was basically the Roman one / Greek one - the polytheistic religious position.  In the OT, the laws applying to children born into slavery was different - and people were not allowed to kidnap others. And while in the OT, it is true that many people in war became slaves, that was a better alternative to death.  Remember the Geneva Convention wouldn't appear for thousands of years later.


Ancient Jewish literary sources suggest that Jews were both slaves and slaveholders in antiquity, and that slavery had a major impact on almost all areas of Jewish daily life, whether in Hellenistic and Roman Palestine or in the Mediterranean Diaspora.

Were the Canaanites enslaved?
The rabbinic story of the Canaanites who went to Africa was used in this context, but also was further developed, so that the African Canaanites were said to have reached Central Europe, where they eventually become the slaves of both the descendants of Shem and the descendants of Japhet, thus fulfilling the curse of ...

#197
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@Owen_T
Elaborate on what? 

Quote what I was talking about.
#198
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@Owen_T
I would definitely believe in God if I saw him immediately cease the blowing of the wind, trouble is, for such a large claim as that, I feel like more than one account is needed. In many cases, however, the Bible just states crazy things that don't make any sense, and don't have historical evidence.
The Bible is the history of the Jewish people and their struggles with their God.