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@RationalMadman
I could actually say Islamic conservative, it's because the word 'conservative' works as both adjective and noun that you're perhaps confused or think you've made a point.In the context, you discussed Muslims as the noun.
Actually and factually, Pew Research finds only 21% of Muslims are "conservative". Thus by extension we may assume that the attacking Muslims are more likely "liberal", but I am not making that claim.
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@RationalMadman
Again you seem to be arguing something off topic.
This began when you said that it was most likely that if a group of Muslims were attacked, they would most likely be attacked by conservatives. I stated that based on reality they would most likely be attacked by other Muslims, True fact!
There is no data that I can find that separates Muslims attacking based on being "conservative".
Actually and factually, Pew Research finds only 21% of Muslims are "conservative". Thus by extension we may assume that the attacking Muslims are more likely "liberal", but I am not making that claim.
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@RationalMadman
You still don't understand, yet your own language proves my point.
To wit,,,,you have said....
Only a severely conservative Muslim would feel there is a need to slaughter other humans over Jihadist reasons.
Do you see it ?
You said "conservative Muslim" not " Muslim conservative"
"conservative Muslim" linguistically means ( the noun ) "Muslim , modified by ( the adjective ) "conservative" thus the noun is primary and the adjective is incidental.
And here is another, if I may adapt your language..... You said
The fact that over 91% of Muslims do not do these killings should be proof enough that Islam is not the cause.
Let us make a similar statement that proves my point.
"The fact that over 99% of non Muslim conservatives do not do these killings should be proof enough that conservatism is not the cause."
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@IwantRooseveltagain
By your definition, because only a small minority ever gets elected, the mere fact of being elected makes them "great".
What you fail to understand is that two very powerful special interest groups will never ALLOW any third party to be successful.
Perhaps you mean "successful" when you say "great"
It appears that you begin with the assumption that NO libertarian can ever be great.
Then just say that and quit hiding behind some phony attempt to justify your underlying belief.
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@RationalMadman
When a group of Muslims kills another group of Muslims, is it because they are conservative? NO. It is a religious battle ( because they are Muslims ).
If they be "conservative" or "apples" or "oranges", it is an incidental property that follows the primary quality of "being Muslim"
Muslim first, conservative incidentally if at all.
The driving factor is "religion" .
Is that enough help for you?
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@RationalMadman
The relationship between "Muslim killing Muslim "and "conservative" in this context is casual.
The relationship between "Muslim killing Muslim " and "Muslim"in this context is causal.
If you need more help, feel free to ask.
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@RationalMadman
Democratic Socialism is a branch of Socialism.
Actually, Democratic Socialism might not exist. Certainly not since the fall of the USSR.
"Democratic socialism is defined as having a socialist economy in which the means of production are socially and collectively owned or controlled alongside a liberal democratic political system of government."
"The Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (1945–1992) styled itself a socialist democracy, as did the People's Republic of Bulgaria (1946–1990) and the Socialist Republic of Romania (1947–1989)"
I actually have no idea wtf the original post is talking about because Germany and Italy as fascists conquered nations that all are right wing now, which nation is vegasgiants referring to?
Kindly list the nations conquered by fascists in WW2 that are now "right wing"
And since you mentioned it, Germany and Italy in the 1930s and 40s were closer the Socialism than anything today.
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@Vegasgiants
If Islam is closer to conservative values.....why don't conservatives support them?
Conservatives support them, but just in a measure equal to all others. They grant no special consideration to them, or to anyone else lest they become a protected class.
Liberals are closer to the values of tolerance and religious freedom
From what planet do you get these ideas? Tolerance? Religious freedom? Read an earth based newspaper.
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Under TRUE socialism, it is the government that owns the means of production, and pretty much everything else.
Few if any countries are governed under this form of economics.
Perhaps this discussion is actually about democratic socialism.
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@RationalMadman
Let's try this one more time, for those that need it......
Your "point " made earlier was that if a Muslim is killed, is the the killer more likely a conservative or a liberal, to which I say the "point" is flawed.
Muslims, be they conservative, liberal, apples or oranges, kill more Muslims than anybody else.
If you really don't understand , then just admit it.
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@RationalMadman
Islamic nations have some of the lowest tax rates on Earth, they very much believe in fiscal responsibility, at least for the general populace.
Other groups have similar qualities and yet are not killing Muslims to the extent that OTHER MUSLIMS are.
Perhaps you do not understand the difference between casual and causal relationships.
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@RationalMadman
I am not going to believe some politician, individually, over the clear clash between conservative and liberal values.
Then in whom do you believe?
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@RationalMadman
Conservatives say limited government meaning cutting the parts of it that help, serve or protect the poor and marginalised. They also reduce beaureacracy only in ways that benefit the rich or native majority ethnicity. Documents, arrests and all of that are much harsher whether for immigrants or otherwise outcasted groups and individuals.
Provide proof or this.....
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@RationalMadman
Conservatives are against individual freedoms.
Provide proof or this.....
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@IwantRooseveltagain
Perhaps you are defining "great"in a different manner, in which case we can discuss no further until you elucidate.
You have failed to present a definition that you will stick with. You just change it to counter any rational counter argument.
It appears that you begin with the assumption that NO libertarian can ever be great.
Then just say that and quit hiding behind some phony attempt to justify your underlying belief.
What is wrong with YOU?
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@IwantRooseveltagain
“Most people know how great is defined - of ability, quality, or eminence considerably above the normal or average”
Look at YOUR definition. I will rephrase it in accordance with standard English.
......of ability OR quality OR eminence considerably above the normal or average
Being elected to public office is a level of eminence considerably above the normal or average. Therefore a libertarian, or anyone else who is elected, is "great" per your definition.
Perhaps you are defining it in a different manner, in which case we can discuss no further until you elucidate.
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@RationalMadman
Perhaps the argument boils down to your IMPRESSION of the term "conservative" verses the ACTUAL definition'
To wit
"7 Core Principles of Conservatism
- Individual Freedom. The birth of our great nation was inspired by the bold declaration that our individual,God-given liberties should be preserved against government intrusion. ...
- Limited Government. ...
- The Rule of Law. ...
- Peace through Strength. ...
- Fiscal Responsibility. ...
- Free Markets. ...
- Human Dignity."
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@RationalMadman
But all those Muslims that kill other Muslims are conservative. Which is what I am still lost as to how you tackle or deny it.
I deny your central theme that these killers are PRIMARILY conservative, when they are in fact PRIMARILY Muslim.
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@RationalMadman
You are making statements that sit on the ourskirts of whatever your subject seems to be to you.
My point is simple and accurate. More Muslims are killed by other Muslims than are killed by non Muslims. Period QED
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@RationalMadman
You want a source that Islam of all sects that are engaging in killing each other is conservative to a high degree?YesI provided it and you ignored it.
I read you Pew cite...it did not address the issue at hand.
And YOU need to define "conservative" since YOU are the one that brought it up.
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@IwantRooseveltagain
Ok, so anyone ever elected to anything is great. Even people who didn’t get elected are great. You stick with that position.
I was using YOUR definition of "great", so deal with it!
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@RationalMadman
Your second Pew cite is non sequitur
I find no distinction in any study where a Muslim who has killed another is classed as a conservative Muslim.
Perhaps you don't know what certain terms mean.
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@RationalMadman
Your Pew cite is non sequitur
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@RationalMadman
You want a source that Islam of all sects that are engaging in killing each other is conservative to a high degree?
Yes
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@RationalMadman
Provide a source for your statement that Muslims are not killing Muslims in Iraq or Afghanistan
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@IwantRooseveltagain
great is defined - of ability, quality, or eminence considerably above the normal or average.
The mere fact that someone is elected to office shows "ability considerably above the normal or average."
You defined it, so you must agree. QED
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@IwantRooseveltagain
Most people know how great is defined - of ability, quality, or eminence considerably above the normal or average.
Holding a seat in the State legislator would then fit your definition.
Holding a seat in Congress would then fit your definition.
Holding a seat in the State Supreme Court would then fit your definition.
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@RationalMadman
Muslims that kill Muslims for religious or ethnic reasons are all very conservative.
Provide a source for your statement.
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@RationalMadman
You do understand that most killings of Muslims are done not by "Liberal-leaning, Conservative-leaning or 'completely independent centrists' but by other Muslims.In which country is that true?Definitely not Iraq or Afghanistan (the stats on Afghanistan are lies, the truth is not known but kind of obvious).
Provide a source for your statement.
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@IwantRooseveltagain
So your whole argument is about how you define "great".
Kindly give your immutable definition, and stop changing the question every time you don't like the answer.
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@RationalMadman
If I told you a hate crime attack happened attempting to slaughter Muslims, and told you regardless of who you bet on, the prize is 1.5x what you bet, how much would you bet on them being Liberal-leaning, Conservative-leaning or 'completely independent centrist'?
You do understand that most killings of Muslims are done not by "Liberal-leaning, Conservative-leaning or 'completely independent centrists' but by other Muslims.
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@Best.Korea
You didnt refute quote from Mao, summary of little red book, countering conservatives and popular support. Its way too late now. They stand as facts now.
Expand. I do not understand your point.
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@IwantRooseveltagain
Any significant elected political leaders? Any at all?
I gave you 6 already.
'"Max Abramson, State Representative from New Hampshire
Justin Amash, former U.S. Representative from Michigan
Bob Barr, former U.S. Representative from Georgia
Clint Bolick, Associate Justice, Arizona Supreme Court
And that is just from the A's and B's.
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@IwantRooseveltagain
ok
Here are the B's
"B
- Jim Babka, president of the Downsize DC Foundation; chair of the Libertarian Party of Ohio[8]
- Michael Badnarik, 2004 Libertarian Party presidential nominee[9]
- Peter Bagge, cartoonist[10]
- Radley Balko, journalist, blogger, and author[11]
- Doug Bandow, blogger, columnist, writer, Senior Fellow at the Cato Institute[12]
- John Perry Barlow, lyricist and co-founder of the Electronic Frontier Foundation[13]
- Randy Barnett, legal scholar and law professor[14]
- Bob Barr, former U.S. Representative from Georgia and 2008 Libertarian Party presidential nominee[15]
- Christopher R. Barron, founder of GOProud[16]
- Dave Barry, humor columnist[17]
- Jim Bell, entrepreneur and author of an essay describing a method of killing government officials[18]
- Bruce L. Benson, academic[19]
- David Bergland, 1984 Libertarian Party presidential nominee, and two-time chair of the Libertarian National Committee[20]
- David Bernstein, law professor[21]
- Big Boi, rapper[22]
- Clint Bolick, Associate Justice, Arizona Supreme Court; lawyer and founder of the litigation division of the Goldwater Institute[23]
- Scott Boman, 2008 Libertarian Party nominee for the U.S. Senate in Michigan[24]
- Rupert Boneham, Survivor contestant and 2012 Libertarian Party nominee for Governor of Indiana[25]
- Murray Bookchin, writer[26]
- Neal Boortz, radio host[27]
- Andy Borsa, member of the New Hampshire House of Representatives[28]
- James Bovard, author[29]
- R. W. Bradford, founder of Liberty[30]
- Barbara Branden, Canadian-American writer, editor, and lecturer[31]
- Nathaniel Branden, Canadian–American psychotherapist and writer[32]
- Arthur C. Brooks, author[33]
- Harry Browne, 1996 and 2000 Libertarian Party presidential nominee[34]
- David Brudnoy, talk radio host[35]
- Scott Bullock, civil rights attorney[36]
- Gene Burns, talk show host and candidate for the Libertarian Party's presidential nomination in 1984[37]
- Marshall Burt, member of the Wyoming House of Representatives[38]
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@IwantRooseveltagain
From Wiki....
- Imad-ad-Dean Ahmad, Palestinian-American scholar and the president of the Minaret of Freedom Institute; 2012 Libertarian Party nominee for the U.S. Senate in Maryland[2]
- Norma Jean Almodovar, 1986 Libertarian Party nominee for Lieutenant Governor of California[3]
- Justin Amash, former U.S. Representative from Michigan[4][5]
- Michael Arrington, founder of TechCrunch[6]
- Cliff Asness, hedge fund manager[7]"
And that is just the A's
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@Best.Korea
Yeah. I forgot to say that was not syllogism
I agree that while it took the form of a syllogism.....it was not a syllogism due to the fallacious argument involved.
You are saying
A is not C
B is not C
therefore A is B
Clearly false as a simple Venn will explain.
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@Best.Korea
( edited syllogism)Muslims oppose conservatives.We oppose conservatives.Therefore we support muslims.
Do you see the logical fallacy you have committed?
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@RationalMadman
Why are liberals less Islamophobic than conservatives?
Could it be that liberals are much more apt to be 'politically correct" than are conservatives?
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Here is an update
behaviors that spell success in America
1. Graduate High School
2. Never be without a job
3. Delay having children until after marriage
4. maintain good health and fitness
5. maintain good mental health
6. develop talents such as music, acting, teaching, managerial, etc
7. Avoid unlawful activities
8. Develop and use social skills and empathy
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@ebuc
Be born a white male in USA or any first world country i.e. success is relative to the environment we find ourselves in.
Is that condition a "behavior"?
Our topic is "behaviors that spell success in America"
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@ebuc
Thanx for the input
behaviors that spell success in America
1. Graduate High School
2. Never be without a job
3. Delay having children until after marriage
4. maintain good health and fitness
5. maintain good mental health
6. develop talents such as music, acting, teaching, managerial, etc
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@Sidewalker
It seems you are defining success in strictly financial terms, as if avoiding poverty completely defines success. I think there are other considerations such as health, happiness, love, etc.
Can you formulate that into a bullet point so I can add it in as I did with zedvictor4 's comment?
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@zedvictor4
Okay.
I will add it .
1. Graduate High School
2. Never be without a job
3. Delay having children until after marriage
4. maintain good health and fitness
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@Intelligence_06
Who does not graduate high school? Isn't that an easy thing?
About 13% of students do not graduate.
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@Sidewalker
How are you defining success?
The dictionary.com states "the favorable or prosperous termination of attempts or endeavors; the accomplishment of one's goals. the attainment of wealth, position, honors, or the like.'
Thesaurus.com says "
- achieve.
- benefit.
- flourish.
- gain.
- get.
- overcome.
- prevail"
How do you define "success"?
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There are three behaviors that spell success in America.
1. Graduate High School
2. Never be without a job
3. Delay having children until after marriage
These 3 behaviors might reduce poverty by 97%.
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"Article I, Section 5, of the United States Constitution provides that "Each House [of Congress] may determine the Rules of its proceedings, punish its members for disorderly behavior, and, with the concurrence of two-thirds, expel a member." Since 1789, the Senate has expelled only fifteen of its entire membership."
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". A vacancy in the office of U.S. senator or representative can be created only by the incumbent's death or resignation, the expiration of his term, or some direct action of the body (the Senate or the House of Representatives) which is empowered to expel members (Burton v. U.S. 202 US 344, at 369). "
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@Vegasgiants
It's fun to make stuff up
The trick is knowing what is make believe and what isn't.
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@Vegasgiants
Funny message from DebateArt.....
"The debate «Science states that there exists a heart at 6 weeks gestation.» has been automatically deleted due to lack of honor on the part of Vegasgiants"
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