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@3RU7AL
313
that's not a contrast
Contrasting is irrelevant.
History in the real world is what matters.
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@3RU7AL
312
so do you think it might be fair to say that "extreme-centralized-government is prerequisite to fascism" ?
It might be "fair", but not historically accurate.
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@3RU7AL
311
My error. Thanks.
Regardless, my answer in 304 stands.
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@3RU7AL
47
You made the citation, yet you fail to provide even rudimentary information about the item.
Go find a primary source.
I did.
I know the date.
I find it laughable that you do not.
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@FishChaser
Israel is also the one doing the invading.
That is a myopic view:
Hamas attacked Israel. Israel COUNTERATTACKED.
"Since October 7, 2023, Israel has been at war with the Palestinian Sunni Islamist group Hamas (aU.S.-designated foreign terrorist organization, or FTO), which led an attack that day from theGaza Strip into Israel. More than 1,200 Israelis and foreign nationals (including at least 35 U.S.citizens in Israel) were killed on October 7, and Hamas and other groups also seized some 252hostages. " (https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/R/R47828#:~)
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Let us revisit this story when all the facts are presented.
Calling the cop "racist" based on the little data we have is inflammatory.
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Overall inflation is up 21.36% since Biden tool office.
Up 7% in 2021
Up another 6.55 in 22
Up another 3.4% in 23
Up another 3% in 24.
Do the math.
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@3RU7AL
307
As I stated above...They are similar vis -a- vis their extreme centralized government with extreme centralized power.
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@3RU7AL
306
I think you are in the wrong forum.
HUMANS HAVE ALWAYS LIVED IN COMMUNITIES AND SHARED RESOURCES
Is this about whether capitalism wrecked the environment, as Bestkorea states in ANOTHER FORUM?
Maybe Steel man for biden?
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@3RU7AL
45
On what date did Trump deliver the speech that YOU HAVE CITED?
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@3RU7AL
302
what is the difference between "state-capitalism" and "state-socialism" ?
Wrong question.
What is similar between the two?
They are similar vis -a- vis their extreme centralized government with extreme centralized power.
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@Best.Korea
283
You cant have capitalism without humans, but humans before capitalism had much better environment.
CASUAL RELATIONSHIP between capitalism and environment
Compare to...
You cant have Communism without humans, but humans before communism had much better environment.
CASUAL RELATIONSHIP between communism and environment
Compare to....
You cant have the world of 2024 without 8 billion humans, but humans before there were 8 billion humans had much better environment.
CAUSAL RELATIONSHIP between the impact of 8 billion humans on the environment.
We used to measure "human equivalents" and reduced the impact of a city of over 250,000 to the equivalent impact of a village of 2,000.
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@ebuc
It may be a NIssan Versa, but there is a Rambler driving it.
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What was the date of the speech in the video .Was it after January 27, 2017? The date is extremely important as you might see very soon.
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@3RU7AL
299
Historically NO.
Also......when asking a question, it must be stated as a question. You conflate statements and questions ( questments? )
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@3RU7AL
38
Hmmmm....
In the hierarchy of quality of information, which is higher: DHS or you tube?
Do you even know how to figure that out?
Here is help from WIKI...."YouTube and other video-sharing sites are generally not considered reliable sources ".
" Government documents and government websites are generally considered authoritative" ( https://apus.libanswers.com ).
Now go find a Klondike Bar wrapper that says the opposite.
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@3RU7AL
Oh god!!!!
#36
see #29.
Also the ban only impacted 0.02% of all Muslims ( 37 thousand out of 1.8 billion)
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@3RU7AL
34
AGAIN
You said "(7) biden reversed the muslim travel ban"
I then proved that there was no such thing.
You then changed it to "the Trump travel ban", to which I asked several questions.
These were:
"(7) biden reversed the trump travel ban"
"Yes he did.
He did not however address the underlying problem.
How did we benefit from the ban?
How did we benefit from removal of the ban?
Do you understand how international travel is regulated.?
Do you understand that there are international standards used to clearly identify who is traveling?
Do you understand that seven countries did not follow those standards ( although one later did while Trump was President, and the ban for that country was
lifted .)?"
You need to address these issues.
ALSO
"(7) biden reversed the muslim travel ban" = "(7) biden reversed the trump travel ban it's exactly the same thing
Not according to the US Government DHS as cited above.
Do you have an issue with reading comprehension?
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@3RU7AL
297
(IFF) "Feudalism, state socialism and state capitalism are essentially the same thing." (THEN) "Feudalism, state socialism and state capitalism" are prerequisite to fascism
Are you now agreeing with that statement?
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@3RU7AL
NO!
You said "(7) biden reversed the muslim travel ban"
I then proved that there was no such thing.
You then changed it to "the Trump travel ban", to which I asked several questions.
These were:
"(7) biden reversed the trump travel ban"
"Yes he did.
He did not however address the underlying problem.
How did we benefit from the ban?
How did we benefit from removal of the ban?
Do you understand how international travel is regulated.?
Do you understand that there are international standards used to clearly identify who is traveling?
Do you understand that seven countries did not follow those standards ( although one later did while Trump was President, and the ban for that country was
lifted .)?"
You need to address these issues.
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@3RU7AL
293
ok, so would it be fair to say "state-capitalism is prerequisite to fascism" ?because,"Feudalism, state socialism and state capitalism are essentially the same thing."
Are you now stating that state-capitalism is prerequisite to fascism?
If so, why?
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@ebuc
I used to drive an old "economy car".
The name of the model was "Rambler"
Perhaps you are driving one now.
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@3RU7AL
#30
(7) biden reversed the trump travel ban
Yes he did.
He did not however address the underlying problem.
How did we benefit from the ban?
How did we benefit from removal of the ban?
Do you understand how international travel is regulated.?
Do you understand that there are international standards used to clearly identify who is traveling?
Do you understand that seven countries did not follow those standards ( although one later did while Trump was President, and the ban for that country was lifted .
"Travel restrictions are not based on the faith of the citizenry of a particular country but on assessments based on that country's information sharing or elevated risk levels" ( DHS cited above).
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@3RU7AL
290
ok, so would it be fair to say "state-capitalism is prerequisite to fascism" ?
Perhaps so.
How do you see that that might be the case?
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@Best.Korea
Vacuous comment from you.
No thought by you.
If it is so evident, a source should be easy to find.
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@Best.Korea
You cant have capitalism without humans, but humans before capitalism had much better environment.
DO you have a source from this bovine excrement?
Worst polluters today are the commies. ( https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-environment/2022/11/23/china-climate-finance-cop27/).
Not because of their type of government , but because of all the humans there,
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@Best.Korea
It wasn't capitalism that damaged the environment.
It was humans.
Their governance was irrelevant.
Rome dumped untreated waste into the Tiber; London into the Thames. Boston used the Charles.
China may have been the worst of all.
Russia destroyed Lake Baikal.
You can look up many more examples.
Capitalism has a casual but non causal relationship, as do all the others.
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@3RU7AL
278
You are almost to a point of understanding.
Feudalism, state socialism and state capitalism are essentially the same thing.
It's like he used to be a vagrant
then he was homeless
For now he is unhoused.
New name, same problem.
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@3RU7AL
(7) biden reversed the muslim travel ban
"FACT: There is no such thing as a “Muslim Travel Ban”and religion has nothing to do with travel restrictionsfor national security reasons. Travel restrictions are notbased on the faith of the citizenry of a particularcountry but on assessments based on that country'sinformation sharing or elevated risk levels. Certainly,people of many faiths, including the Islamic faith, willcontinue to travel to the U.S. each year."
( https://www.dhs.gov/sites/default/files/publications/21_0115_myths-vs-facts-travel-restrictions.pdf )
Joe knew there is no such thing as a “Muslim Travel Ban”........he just hopes that you can be easily deceived for political purposes.
That's as far as I go
But at least the truth
you now know
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@3RU7AL
(6) biden halted funding for the border wall
"As of June 2023, FAIR estimates that approximately 16.8 million illegal aliens reside in the United States."
Good job Joe!!
More to come
Just for fun
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@3RU7AL
"infrastructure investment and jobs act"
What about the lack of efficiency by the FEDS?
"In 2021, the Infrastructure Investment and Jobs Act included $7.5 billion to build 500,000 public charging stations for electric vehicles (E.V.s) across the country in an effort to boost a switch to the use of clean energy.
As Reason reported in December, not one charger funded by the program had yet come online. Now, six months later, the number of functional charging stations has ticked up to eight."
As Reason reported in December, not one charger funded by the program had yet come online. Now, six months later, the number of functional charging stations has ticked up to eight."
(https://reason.com/2024/05/30/7-5-billion-in-government-cash-only-built-8-e-v-chargers-in-2-5-years/)
More to come
Just for fun
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@3RU7AL
Item #1
(1) "the american rescue plan" - injected money into the economy
Yet it was supposed to create jobs. It did the opposite.
" President Biden claimed that the American Rescue Plan “created jobs. Lots of jobs.” Simply put, that is malarkey. Over 20% of the bill’s spending went to supporting policies that destroy jobs, encouraging Americans to depend on government checks instead of getting back into the workforce. A study from the American Enterprise Institute found that the American Rescue Plan failed to create any of the 4 million new jobs Democrats promised. In fact, it was quite the opposite. Approximately 1.8 million Americans reportedly turned down a job because of the extended unemployment bonuses that were included. The Democrats’ bill even eliminated work requirements for federal food assistance programs and the Child Tax Credit. No wonder America faced a massive worker shortage."
( https://budget.house.gov/press-release/smith-op-ed-one-year-later-why-bidens-american-rescue-failed"
More to follow...just for fun.
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@3RU7AL
275
Both State Capitalism and State Socialism want the state to be the owner. Proven by sourced citations.
ok, so absolutely no difference whatsoever ?
You sure infer many things.
In terms of who owns things, they appear to have the same goals.
Perhaps the state owns the alpaca under state capitalism and the socialist state owns the sheep. Either way YOU DON"T GET THE WOOL.
So why espouse a system of "equal misery"? ( W. Churchill )
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@3RU7AL
273
if a corporation (or cartel) owns all land and water and power in an areathey are functionally indistinguishable from a feudal lord
Or congruently....
if a state owns all land and water and power in an area
they are functionally indistinguishable from a feudal lord
And also indistinguishable from state socialism. ( as I said above......look it up).
So we agree that socialism as a state is much like feudalism.
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@3RU7AL
272
State socialism is ownership centralized in the hands of the government.
so is state-capitalism
i wonder what the difference is ????
I'll bet you do.
"State capitalism is an economic system in which the state undertakes business and commercial (i.e., for-profit) economic activity and where the means of production are nationalized as state-owned enterprises (including the processes of capital accumulation, centralized management and wage labor)." ( WIKI)
"State socialism is a political and economic ideology within the socialist movement that advocates state ownership of the means of production." ( WIKI )
Condensing for those who need it
Both State Capitalism and State Socialism want the state to be the owner. Proven by sourced citations.
Do you agree with WIKI?
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@3RU7AL
269
The endless linguine returns
what are the three examples you personally believe prove your case ?
Answered and proved.
Review the thread.
And now they have changed their name from " The alpaca is not a sheep" and later changed to "The Market Capitalist", and later changed to " The humanist Hamburger Place", and now to "The Endless Linguine" and now to "The Monotonous Meatball" and back to "The Endless Linguine".
Thus, the topic remains that three real world examples exist where a previously socialist state morphed in a fascist state. This is especially true when we accept 3ru7al's definitions.
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@3RU7AL
268
The endless linguine
Feudalism is closer to socialism than capitalism. Look it up.
State socialism is ownership centralized in the hands of the government.
Monarchy is too varied to be classified ( unless one has an overpowering urge to do so).
What exactly are you fighting for? We hold these truths to be self evident.
Are you still trying to get sheep's wool off an alpaca?
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@3RU7AL
265
what you've described is a hybrid capitalist + socialist enterpriselike nearly every society on planet earth
You failed to ask the MOST IMPORTANT QUESTION. Is the restaurant located in a socialist country or a non-socialist country?
You STILL think that giving to charity is "socialist". Most would call it "humanist", and explicitly non political .
And now they have changed their name from " The alpaca is not a sheep" and later changed to "The Market Capitalist", and later changed to " The humanist Hamburger Place", and now to "The Endless Linguine"
Thus, the topic remains that three real world examples exist where a previously socialist state morphed in a fascist state. This is especially true when we accept 3ru7al's definitions.
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@3RU7AL
263
By inspecting the definition of "state capitalism" , it is clear that this is state centric rather than capitalist centric. It is closer to state socialism , as you can see. ( but probably will not).
ok, what would you call a system of governance that is based on capitalism ?
I will answer that by channeling 3ru7al ............
what would you call a system of governance that is NOT based on capitalism ?
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@3RU7AL
262
I Asked you...."A restaurant serves the public. Is it socialist?"
You dodged again by not answering, but rather asking further dodgy questions.
where does the funding come from for this restaurantand where do the profits end up ?
Well, this restaurant was funded by a large group of people who put up the start up money to open the restaurant. Some in this group were then employed by the restaurant. They were part owners, and the distribution of profits was determined by the group. Some was paid out to workers, some was given to charity, and some was reinvested into the restaurant. Some profit was returned to the investors. Some money was used for a weekly "soup kitchen" for the needy.
The name of the restaurant was " The alpaca is not a sheep" and later changed to "The Market Capitalist".
"What do you mean by"where does the funding come from for this restaurant and where do the profits end up "?
"What do you mean by the word mean?
"what do you mean by the word "word"?
"and what do you mean by wasting my time like this?" { per M. Python ).
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@3RU7AL
259
You suffer from an extreme categorical imperative.
A public school system is neither socialist ( in the real world sense), nor capitalist ( in the real world sense).
It need not be grouped as either.
A restaurant serves the public. Is it socialist?
I worked for a time in public service, but I am not a socialist.
Some jigsaw pieces simply don't fit, because you have too many puzzles at play.
An alpaca gives wool, but most people don't think it is a sheep. Why do you?
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@3RU7AL
257
Socialism as a basis for governance is the same as "state socialism".
Capitalism as a basis for governance is NOT the same as "state capitalism"
State socialism is very close to state capitalism.
This was already explained above.
See if you can find it.
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@3RU7AL
254
I asked you for a source for your "opinion" thus ......"You stated earlier that having public schools is socialism, but you never cited a source that agrees with your "opinion"."
You have not sourced this opinion, which I have inquired after.
Now you DODGE and ask of me....
please explain how public schools are "capitalist" institutions
Again an inference made without implication. I never said what you think I said.
I never said they were "capitalist" or "socialist". Neither is true.
Here is even more to think about
"Capitalism has a long record of delivering schooling and other types of education. When schooling was delivered primarily by the private sector, literacy rates in the United States were as high as, or higher than, they are today despite vast increases in resources, technology, and expertise devoted to schooling." ( https://www.hoover.org/sites/default/files/uploads/documents/0817939717_317.pdf)
Thus, the topic remains that three real world examples exist where a previously socialist state morphed in a fascist state. This is especially true when we accept 3ru7al's definitions.
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@3RU7AL
251
Socialism creates a form of governance.
Capitalism creates a form of governance.
"State socialism is a political and economic ideology within the socialist movement that advocates state ownership of the means of production. This is intended either as a temporary measure, or as a characteristic of socialism in the transition from the capitalist to the socialist mode of production or to a communist society. .... It advocates a planned economy controlled by the state in which all industries and natural resources are state-owned. { per Tucker, Benjamin (1985) [1886]. State Socialism and Anarchism and Other Essays: Including the Attitude of Anarchism Toward Industrial Combinations and Why I Am an Anarchist . and Ellman, Michael (2014). Socialist Planning and WIKI]
"Capitalism is an economic and political system where trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit. Its core principles are accumulation, ownership, and profiting from capital. ......Capitalism is the dominant world economic system, ..... Most political theorists and nearly all economists argue that capitalism is the most efficient and productive system of exchange." [ https://www.investopedia.com/terms/c/capitalism.]
"Capitalism vs. Socialism
In terms of political economy, capitalism is often contrasted with socialism. The fundamental difference between the two is the ownership and control of the means of production. In a capitalist economy, property and businesses are owned and controlled by individuals. In a socialist economy, the state owns and manages the vital means of production. However, other differences also exist in the form of equity, efficiency, and employment. [Ibid]
Thus it is seen, broadly speaking, that the economy of a nation determines the government of that nation. Granted there are exceptions, but they are just that EXCEPTIONS.
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@3RU7AL
249
I do not understand what you are saying in #249.
What are you saying????????
From what "non implication" are you inferring something that was neither stated nor implied?
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@3RU7AL
248
From your source.....
"Socialism is an economic and political philosophy encompassing diverse economic and social systems"
Now here we need to divest you of your "uber literal" brain.
An economic and political theory cries out as a theory of a particular form of government.
Also economic and social systems cry out as a theory of a particular form of government.
You stated earlier that having public schools is socialism, but you never cited a source that agrees with your "opinion".
Face facts....socialism as a form of government leads to rule by the elite, as per CIA cite above.
And those elites can easily become fascists.
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@3RU7AL
245
this is less of a functioning definitionand more of a naked assertion
Then find a counter source.
Also define exactly what a functioning definition is using source material.
Also define exactly what a naked assertion is using source material.
Also define exactly what less is using source material.
Also define exactly what more is using source material.
And where did your 3:38 PM comment go?
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