Think Islam is a religion of peace? Think again.

Author: Grugore

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#151
Stephen
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@keithprosser
islam spread throughout spain right up to france but were defeated by the Franks in 771 CE - otherwise we might be Muslims today!



It spread a lot further into other places too, Poland, Hungary France, Yugoslavia and the Caucuses . Into the holy lands and as far East as the Indian subcontinent.   Yes these lovely peaceful followers went into foreign lands spreading the word of their religion of peace and the people just couldn't get enough of it, could they keith?  And all achieved by "just a tiny,tiny minority of muslims" too!!!

If you believe I am only showing the bad side of Islam, please feel free to show me the good side. 

#152
keithprosser
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@Stephen
When Empires spread they carry their reigions with them.  The British and other European empires Christianised entire contients. Did an expnding Arab empire push the spread Islam or vice versa?

But we aren't talking about empires nowadays!   Islam isn't a thing with a mind or goals and it can't be said that islam having failed in the C8th is trying to takeover Europe again.  The current situation is new and history is not repeating itself.

#153
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When Empires spread they carry their religions with them. 
 
I am assuming you mean religions. So yes they do “carry their religions” but they do not necessarily enforce that religion by the sword onto other nations as Islam has done in past as shown above and still doing so.
 
 The British and other European empires Christianised entire contients.
 
They didn’t spread Christianity by the sword, They may have taken countries by warfare and later became christianised, but it had nothing to do with rapeing and murdering for Christ , like muslims are ordered to do by Allah and Muhammad. And we are talking Islam here on this thread not christianity. 
 
 
 
Did an expanding Arab empire push thespread Islam or vice versa?
 
They did, by the sword. It was convert or die.
 
But we aren't talking about empires nowadays!  
 
I think it was you who brought empire building into the mix. I just expanded on your disingenuous statement by  you only mentioning Spain in the Muslim Expansion of the globe, by the sword here>>
 
islam spread throughout spain right up to france but were defeated by the Franks in 771 CE - otherwise we might be Muslims today!
 
 
 Islam isn't a thing with a mind or goals
 Then you know nothing of the goals of Islam. How Many times do you need reminding?
 
Quran 8:39
 And fight them until there is no fitnah and[until] the religion, all of it, is for Allah. And if they cease - then indeed,Allah is Seeing of what they do.
  That verse is talking about perpetual holy jihad "until all religion is for allah".  You can deny that fact as much as you like. but it won't alter it's meaning.
 
 
 
and it can't be said that islam having failed in the C8th is trying to takeover Europe again. 
 Over 400 years of Islamic expansion across the globe is not a failure by any means. Islam has had three of the biggest and long lasting empires the world had ever know. again, your are either ignorant to these facts or are being disingenuous AGAIN.

is trying to takeover Europe again.

Kid yourself all day. But you won’t convince me or that of millions of others in Europe who are indeed suffering because of  the influence and actions of Islam as taught in the quran  
 
 The current situation is new and history is not repeating itself.
 
Opinion. Muslims - that is to say more than one muslim -  around the world are acting in EXACTLY the same way  today that they were taught to act towards the  non believer 1400 years ago.

 
If you believe I am only showing the bad side of Islam, please feel free to show me the good side. 

#154
secularmerlin
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@Stephen
I'm sorry but is this a discussion about your subjective opinion about what Muslims are likely to do? I thought it was a discussion of the faith known as Islam only and was not aimed at Muslims themselves.

Well since it is as much about the actions of Muslims as their beliefs allow me to ask again. Exactly what would you like to see happen in regards to Islam and muslims? For that matter what would you like to see done about other possibly violent beliefs? Beliefs that call for the exalecution of homosexuals, nonvirgin women, divorced women and people that work on any day of the week they choose for example? I'm pretty sure if we ban Islam for it's violent commands it would logically follow that we should ban any belief system with similar commands. Are we upset about thise too or just Islam?
#155
Polytheist-Witch
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@secularmerlin
Watch secularmerlin defend an religion then two posts later call for the destruction of all religion. Hypocrite. 
#156
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@secularmerlin
I thought it was a discussion of the faith known as Islam only and was not aimed at Muslims themselves.

But you made it about muslims by saying at post 122 above "Of course Muslims Could alter the quran".

see that you clown. YOU said that, not me

Well since it is as much about the actions of Muslims as their beliefs allow me to ask again.
Exactly what would you like to see happen in regards to Islam and muslims? 



 I have already responded to this by telling you " it is for muslims themselves" to sort out.  I have said why the can't/won't. You insist they can so why don't you just tell us all how they- muslims- can "alter the quran". I have asked you FOUR times now. Why won't you address this. 


For that matter what would you like to see done about other possibly violent beliefs?

Again, your responding to my questions to you with questions of your own that I have already explained. Here it is again.  in big large bold underlined letters:

IT IS FOR MUSLIMS TO REFORM ISLAM. IT IS FOR MUSLIMS TO ALTER THE QURAN!!!!



Beliefs that call for the exalecution of homosexuals, nonvirgin women, divorced women and people that work on any day of the week they choose for example?
But that is YOU AGAIN discussing Muslims and not its source ISLAM.  


I'm pretty sure if we ban Islam for it's violent commands it would logically follow that we should ban any belief system with similar commands.

HOW MANY TIMES. Do you have memory problems?  You cannot ban a "belief system"   you cannot ban an idea which is a belief system. And we are not discussing "any other belief systems"  we are discussing ISLAM.

 SO FOR THE 5 TIME and after YOU saying  at post 122 above "Of course Muslims Could alter the quran".



  How  are YOU are going to explain to MUSLIMS how their holy god sent book, passed onto them PHYSICALLY via The angel Gabriel  down to Muhammad can alter these sacred UNALTERABLE words?


#157
secularmerlin
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@Polytheist-Witch
I do not call for destruction of anything. I prefer understanding to fighting.
#158
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@secularmerlin
Liar. 
#159
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@Stephen
Of course Muslims could alter Islam. They are in fact the only ones that can. It would have nothing to do with me and would require explanations from no one. 

I agree that banning a belief is impossible as beliefs are not a chouce. I'm glad you recognize at least that much.

That does leave us with the question of exactly what you think should be done (by non muslims) about Islam (if not muslims) and other possibly aggressive ideologies (any given faith based system of belief)?


#160
Stephen
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@secularmerlin
Of course Muslims could alter Islam.

No they can't and I have have given you just a few reasons why they can't. YOU on the other hand have not even bothered to show us all how muslims can alter the unalterable word of their god. 

They are in fact the only ones that can.

It is up to them yes. But they cannot do so and I have given you ample reasons why they can't. 




It would have nothing to do with me and would require explanations from no one. 

That's right , nothing to do with YOU but it hasn't stopped YOU telling us that MUSLIMS can alter the unalterable word of their god . And YOU haven't explained how they can, have YOU? 

I agree that banning a belief is impossible as beliefs are not a chouce.
So why ask me me about it. Why even put the idea forward. You are going in circles now. The simple fact is that YOU do not have a solution to the islamic problem even though YOU are able to tell us that  at post 122 above "Of course Muslims Could alter the quran".

HOW can they? is what I want to know?



That does leave us with the question of exactly what you think should be done

STOP IT FFS!!!!!! I have said IT IS FOR MUSLIMS TO REFORM ISLAM. IT IS FOR MUSLIMS TO ALTER THE QURAN!!!! how many times??? It doesn't matter what I think.

But it  does  leaves me with the question of why haven't YOU put forward a solution raised by your own statement:
 
 SO FOR THE 6!!!!!!!!!! TIME and after YOU saying  at post 122 above "Of course Muslims Could alter the quran".

 HOW CAN THEY ALTER THE QURAN!!!! 

  How  are YOU are going to explain to MUSLIMS how their holy god sent book, passed onto them PHYSICALLY via The angel Gabriel  down to Muhammad can alter these sacred UNALTERABLE words?

 Just leave the thread if you cannot back up what your spouting about others and what they can do.


#161
Plisken
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@secularmerlin
The people must be able to justify the state, and the state should be forced to justify itself for continued respect by the people.  
#162
Polytheist-Witch
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@Plisken
Excellent. 
#163
secularmerlin
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@Stephen
HOW CAN THEY ALTER THE QURAN!!!! 
With a pen.

It seems we are talking past each other. Perhaps it is my fault. Perhaps I have not worded my question properly.

In the the end a book/faith/religion does not and cannot take any actions on its own. Books cannot commit violence or enact discrimination. Is your problem with the words contained in a book or with the actions they promote? Is your problem with a belief or with the actions of people? The former could be considered a problem with Islam (as separate from Muslims themselves) the latter would definitely be a problem with Muslims as they are the ones taking action (the quran cannot act).

Again I am not defending Islam ao.much as asking why you have singled it out and what exactly you think is a reasonable solution to the problems you have brought up.

#164
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HOW CAN THEY ALTER THE QURAN!!!! 
With a pen.

It seems we are talking past each other. Perhaps it is my fault. Perhaps I have not worded my question properly.

In the the end a book/faith/religion does not and cannot take any actions on its own. Books cannot commit violence or enact discrimination. Is your problem with the words contained in a book or with the actions they promote? Is your problem with a belief or with the actions of people? The former could be considered a problem with Islam (as separate from Muslims themselves) the latter would definitely be a problem with Muslims as they are the ones taking action (the quran cannot act).

Again I am not defending Islam ao.much as asking why you have singled it out and what exactly you think is a reasonable solution to the problems you have brought up.

That is simply the most absolute and complete ignorant response one can have expected.  You made a statement an absolute stupid and redundant statement and now after being pressed you simply couldn't back it up. 

GO AWAY, you absolute clown!!


Again I am not defending Islam


 You are and your making excuses for it too. Go away you buffoon.


much as asking why you have singled it out
This is not my thread . and I have criticized the christian scriptures more than I have islam and the Quran by about 30 to 1.


and what exactly you think is a reasonable solution to the problems you have brought up.

I didn't bring them up. it is not my thread. there is no solutions to islam.
#165
secularmerlin
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@Stephen
No solution you say? Well then yes I believe we are done here. Thanks for the conversation just the same.

#166
Vader
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@Grugore
Islam is not a peaceful religion.

It states in their Quran that they "draw their swords' if they dont convert to their faith.

#167
keithprosser
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@Vader
It states in their Quran that they "draw their swords' if they dont convert to their faith

Which scripture says to its enemies:

Happy is the one who seizes your infants
and dashes them against the rocks.
It's not koran!

You can't just read - or be told about - selected passages in a scripture and think you know all about a religion. That's not defending Islam - it's stating the obvious that socio-poltical issues are complicated, more so when reigion is in the mix.   The fact that not being a rabid islamophobe - just by trying to be objective - is enough to get one branded race traitor shows how dangerous the situation has become.

I'd say the reasons why young men self-radicalise using internet, why many pedophile gangsters are East Asian and why Halal slaughter is an isssue go deeper than saying 'Islam baaad' and finding a verse in the koran or hadith to 'prove' it.








#168
Stephen
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@keithprosser

Which scripture says to its enemies:


Happy is the one who seizes your infants
and dashes them against the rocks.
That will be the ancient Hebrew Psalm 137:9 Keith. What's your point? Yes it is a disgraceful thing to wish upon any peoples of the world and should be condemned . But tell me Keith, are they dashing the heads of children against rock in Israel today Keith?   Are Israeli soldiers dashing the heads of their enemies children today in the 21st century?

Are they still cutting the heads of those who refuse to convert in the Islamic world?
Are they still stoning women who have been raped in the Islamic world?
What about blasphemy, Keith, what is the sentence today for that in the Islamic world? 
Apostasy? What the sentence for apostasy, today in the Islamic world?

Your best attempt to defend this barbaric ideology called Islam is always to attempt to contextualise the violence that is still, today in the 21st century, happening in the Islamic world to that of the ancient Hebrews of thousands of years ago.  It is no defence Keith. 

#169
keithprosser
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@Stephen
Are Israeli soldiers dashing the heads of their enemies children today in the 21st century?
The point I wanted to make is that you don't necessarily learn much from verses in a scripture.  One can identify the passages used to justify beheading apostes but not the reason why slavish adherence to the letter (or one interpretion of the letter) has become increasingly dominant, especially since the 70's.  For that you have look at more than just the texts.

Why is Christian fundamentlism having a rennaissance in the US?  The bible and koran don't change but clearly something does.
 

#170
Stephen
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@keithprosser
The point I wanted to make is that you don't necessarily learn much from verses in scripture.
I will assume that you are suggesting  that old  chestnut "cherry picking", Keith.
 
Tell me,if you wanted to start a thread on biblical scripture, will you post the whole bible?
 
One can identify the passages used to justify beheading apostes but not the reason why slavish adherence to the letter (or one interpretation of the letter)
You are more than welcome to give us your "interpretation" of what certain verses mean, Keith. Until then we only have the Islamic interpretations of these verses, don't we?
 
 
 
 For that you have look at more than just the texts.
 
But you , from my own experience do not accept what is put in front of you even from from scholars of islam.  the author in the OP link makes it quite clear that got his research from Islamic sources such as the the respected authority Ibn Isḥāq, but you simply called the authors "the egregious bias of writers",  so by you saying:

" more than just the texts", by   that do you mean, looking for other Islamic sources to defend the indefensible or a source to actually support and justify the actual verse in question?

Ok, try this one> 
 
Quran 8:39
 And fight them until there is no fitnah and[until] the religion, all of it, is for Allah. And if they cease - then indeed,Allah is Seeing of what they do.
 This is believed to be calling for perpetual jihad "until all religion is for allah". 

So, using all of your experience on the subject, could you be so kind as to give us your  interpretation on the above quranic verse Quran 8:39.
 
Why is Christian fundamentlism having a renaissance in the US? 
 
You tellus.... in another thread. Maybe it fears the rise of Islam, Lord knows, the citizens of the U.S have every reason to fear Islam. <<<<< see that , ISLAM
 
 
 
The bible and koran don't change but clearly something does.
 
 The Words of   bible maybe doesn't change, not much anyway, but the adherents to the faith do and they have dragged it into the 21st century.  Christians AND Jews do not stone people anymore;there was a reformation you see. And it appears that the Christian “religion”is ever revolving. Just recently the Pope himself said we can soon expect to find life on other planets. Who’d have believed that a Pope would have overturned two thousand years of believing that we were the only beings in the universe?But there it was , coming from the lips of the “father” himself. You see Keith It is people that change things particularly in the West.
 
 Can you now point out to me any changes in attitude towards the Quran by muslims in the Islamic east?
 
 
 
 

#171
Vader
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@keithprosser
It says that directed to people who do not want to convert. They use war to fight other religions
#172
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@Vader
Where does it say that?  
#173
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@Stephen
Your best attempt to defend this barbaric ideology called Islam is always to attempt to contextualise the violence that is still, today in the 21st century, happening in the Islamic world to that of the ancient Hebrews of thousands of years ago.  It is no defence Keith. 
I don't see what I am doing as defence of Islam.   I don't think you can explain young men self-radicalising off the internet or Pakistani grooming gangs by trawling the koran and hadith.  Re Asia Bibi, the 'establishment' are clearly resisting demands of the mob, few of whom would be true scholars. Obviously there are Islamist scholars calling for her head -  given that, why didn't the government simply give her over? 

The Islamic world is tearing itself apart - I think its because the traditionalists saw their end in sight and they are good at mobilising the mob.   They are succeeding in turning back tide of progress.   But Islam per se is neutral.  Religion is a tool, not an agency.

#174
IlDiavolo
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@keithprosser
How can you say Islam is neutral if the muslims conquered half the world?

What happened to you, Keith? I thought you were more rational.

Il Diavolo
#175
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@Plisken
I am not sure which part in the Quran. But I know it is in there
#176
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@Vader
I think you might be missing something, because Islam provides a means, at least for people of the book, to coexist once they conquer you.  Christians from what I understand are allowed to have their own way and may not be subject to the bulk of shariah, but they must still submit.  Under Shariah law, they had to pay a tax and theoretically have relative autonomy as long as they respect those revered in Islam, and don't pose a political threat.
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#177
Grugore
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@Plisken
It's slavery. Pure and simple. Keep your religion. But give us your money and behave yourself, or we kill you.
#178
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@Grugore
It's slavery. Pure and simple. Keep your religion. But give us your money and behave yourself, or we kill you.
Sounds a lot like Christianity not that long ago.

#179
Plisken
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@Grugore
It's not an income tax, and I would wager the idea is to establish a covenant with equal rights, the tax being an exchange for protection.  
#180
disgusted
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@Stephen
Are Israeli soldiers dashing the heads of their enemies children today in the 21st century?

They are though shooting 4yr olds, heroes or what?