Think Islam is a religion of peace? Think again.

Author: Grugore

Posts

Total: 293
#121
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,566
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@Mopac
At least one former Muslim I knew became a Christian after talking with me, and they were Iranian. You can in Iran! In fact, leaving Islam is punishable by death under Muslim law.

Yes, one can get killed for that sort of thing, but be careful about saying "Muslim law"  the apologists will have a fit and are likely to accuse you of all kinds of things, such as "bigotry, racism, and islamophobia" and of cherry picking the appropriate verses to prove your point such as ,

APOSTASY: Bukhari : 9.84.57. - ISLAM ANDAPOSTASY" Prophet Muhammad said: Whoever changed his Islamic religion,then kill him."
#122
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,566
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@secularmerlin
Of course Muslims Could alter the quran.
No they cannot. It's The last and perfect unalterable word of Allah. You don’t seem to be grasping this fact. Who are you to tell them they can reform THEIR ideology? 
 
All it would take is the agreement of enough Muslims.
You make that sound simple. See above.
 
 
Of course that would only hold true of Muslims that except this new doctrine.
You are at least recognising it is up to Muslims to reform the Quran. but your not accepting or understanding the dilemma of the muslim. again,  who are you to tell them they can reform THEIR ideology? No one that's who. 


But tell me. If it is the perfect and unalterable last word of god Allah, then why – from the Muslim point of view - would it need reforming?
 
 

#123
Plisken
Plisken's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 706
2
1
5
Plisken's avatar
Plisken
2
1
5
-->
@keithprosser
You can get killed for that sort of thing in Iran!
The idea is to make sure you don't get killed for being a Muslim here!   Or it should be.
The penalty for apostasy is death, but you can change your mind.  All Muslim marriages require conversion.  All the children are born muslims.  If there's an argument countering this that makes sense, I haven't heard it, but the standards of conviction can be set very high.


Creating and exacerbating division and strife is easy - even Grugore and Stephen can do that!   I want to see something constructive for a change.  
Perhaps, if you don't want Muslims to kill people in the country you reside in, it's necessary to mitigate their political influence.  
#124
secularmerlin
secularmerlin's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 7,093
3
3
3
secularmerlin's avatar
secularmerlin
3
3
3
-->
@Stephen
Who are you to tell them they can reform THEIR ideology? 
I did not say that I could. Who are you to tell them they can't?
You make that sound simple.
Change of that nature is rarely simple and often results in violence on both sides as happened when the protestants broke away from the Catholic church. That is part of the danger of faith based beliefs. The non believer can be dehumanized in the eyes of the believer which makes it seem more reasonable to do them harm.
But tell me. If it is the perfect and unalterable last word of god Allah, then why – from the Muslim point of view - would it need reforming?
This is not a necessary Muslim view whether it is currently the prevailing view or not. Only Muslims can alter what they believe and even then not by choice.
#125
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,566
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@keithprosser
Creating and exacerbating division and strife is easy - even Grugore and Stephen can do that!   I want to see something constructive for a change.    

I think you'll find that it is Islam that makes the "division". You simply know nothing of this ideology that you defend. Here's' a little bit of "divisive" information for you.

islam divides the world into two parts. The House of Peace and the House of War.
Islam believes itself to be the House of Peace. Can you guess who it is that muslims believes represents the other "House" ? 


I want to see something constructive for a change.   

In what form?  Do you mean change?  And what do you mean by "constructive"?  Why not put something forward instead of accusing others of not producing or putting "something constructive" forward. What are your ideas. 



#126
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,566
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
Who are you to tell them they can reform THEIR ideology? 
I did not say that I could. Who are you to tell them they can't?


I didn't say YOU could either. But you have said  at post 122 above "Of course Muslims Could alter the quran". ie you told me that muslims could alter the quran. Show me your evidence for this assumption. The evidence shows they cannot, stop ignoring the facts , we won't get anywhere if you keep ignoring and denying what  Islamic law states.

This is not a necessary Muslim view,
Prove it



Only Muslims can alter what they believe and even then not by choice.

Yes I have told YOU that it would be up to muslims to do so umpteen times now, and I have also pointed out the muslims dilemma, you want to ignore that instead of trying to solve it. 

Change of that nature is rarely simple and often results in violence on both sides 

From whom would the violence come? Those that attempt to alter or change /reform one unalterable last and final word of god Allah, will face death. These are facts. So can I take it that you are suggesting only  war can lead to reformation?

Who are you to tell them they can't?

It is not me who is telling Muslims they cannot reform Islam, stop being ignorant and stop implying that I have said as much. . I have told YOU,  not muslims, that Islam cannot be reformed. Muslims already know they cannot alter the perfect unalterable word of their god Allah.

It is YOU who has said point blank at post 117:

Of course Muslims could alter the quran.

Prove it
#127
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,566
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
It is actually veryhard to locate fair and objective material on islam,

So you just call it a "religion of peace" and hope no one will look no further.


If you believe I am only showing the bad side of Islam, please feel free to show me the good side. 
#128
secularmerlin
secularmerlin's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 7,093
3
3
3
secularmerlin's avatar
secularmerlin
3
3
3
-->
@Stephen
 you told me that muslims could alter the quran. Show me your evidence for this assumption. 
The Quran is just a book. Books can be altered. I'm not sure what your asking for proof of here.
Of course Muslims could alter the quran.

Prove it
As I said I'm not sure what proof you need that books can and sometimes are edited, poorly translated or deliberately altered between printings.
#129
Plisken
Plisken's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 706
2
1
5
Plisken's avatar
Plisken
2
1
5
-->
@keithprosser
You can get killed for that sort of thing in Iran!
The idea is to make sure you don't get killed for being a Muslim here!   Or it should be.
The penalty for apostasy *according to hadith* is death, but you can change your mind.  All Muslim marriages require conversion.  All the children are born muslims.  If there's an argument countering this that makes sense, I haven't heard it, but the standards of conviction can be set very high.


Creating and exacerbating division and strife is easy - even Grugore and Stephen can do that!   I want to see something constructive for a change.  
Perhaps, if you don't want Muslims to kill people in the country you reside in, it's necessary to mitigate their political influence.  

#130
Plisken
Plisken's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 706
2
1
5
Plisken's avatar
Plisken
2
1
5
-->
@secularmerlin
The Quran is unalterable, and more literal than the Bible. 

#131
secularmerlin
secularmerlin's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 7,093
3
3
3
secularmerlin's avatar
secularmerlin
3
3
3
-->
@Plisken
It is not unalterable as I said. Books are altered all the time. And it is not more literal than the bible. You could argue that it is taken more literally than the bible but that would merely be the subjective opinion of Muslims. It would be an untrue statement when discussing any Muslims that were of a different subjective viewpoint and is also subjective to how literally the bible is taken by any given christian.

#132
Plisken
Plisken's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 706
2
1
5
Plisken's avatar
Plisken
2
1
5
-->
@secularmerlin
The Quran is claimed to be a challange and a revelation directly from Allah, written by one man, without error, literally perfect.  It is theologically vital to the Islamic faith, like the resurection is to christianity.  Many Muslims believe Muhammad was illiterate.


#133
secularmerlin
secularmerlin's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 7,093
3
3
3
secularmerlin's avatar
secularmerlin
3
3
3
-->
@Plisken
Perfect is a subjective qualification not an objectively quantifiable one. Since Islam is a faith based belief a difference or change in the beliefs of those who hold said beliefs. The same would hold true for christianity.

Topic's author
#134
Grugore
Grugore's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 167
0
1
3
Grugore's avatar
Grugore
0
1
3
-->
@Castin
History has proven that there is only one way to deal with Islam. It's called a Crusade. It is the goal Islam to rule the entire world and to exterminate all other religions while making sharia the only law . They will never quit. This has been proven by many centuries of history. The only way to combat Islam is through genocide. And even then, it's only a temporary fix.
#135
secularmerlin
secularmerlin's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 7,093
3
3
3
secularmerlin's avatar
secularmerlin
3
3
3
@Grugore 
Whatever the christian god Yahweh advocates I cannot condone genocide.
#136
Plisken
Plisken's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 706
2
1
5
Plisken's avatar
Plisken
2
1
5
-->
@Grugore
What is the point as a Christian for waging Jihad against Islam?  
Topic's author
#137
Grugore
Grugore's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 167
0
1
3
Grugore's avatar
Grugore
0
1
3
-->
@secularmerlin
There is nothing immoral about genocide if it is a question of self defense. Islam has one goal. The conversion or death of every human on the planet. This is a fact. It is what Islam teaches. Islam is a cancer. It needs to be eradicated.
Topic's author
#138
Grugore
Grugore's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 167
0
1
3
Grugore's avatar
Grugore
0
1
3
-->
@Plisken
It's called self defense.
#139
secularmerlin
secularmerlin's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 7,093
3
3
3
secularmerlin's avatar
secularmerlin
3
3
3
@Grugore 

Killing an entire demographic of people is wrong in my opinion. Human understanding is always preferred to open warfare for the purpose of my stated goal of promoting human wellbeing and minimizing harm to humans. Wether Muslims are in violation of this stated goal or not it is still in opposition of this goal to subject all muslimscto a death penalty without due process.
#140
Plisken
Plisken's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 706
2
1
5
Plisken's avatar
Plisken
2
1
5
-->
@Grugore
Genocide, of all things, is not immoral?  Really??????  Genocide, is not worth defending.  What have you got, that's worth living for?  It's certainly not the current state of your culture
#141
Castin
Castin's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,231
3
2
7
Castin's avatar
Castin
3
2
7
-->
@Grugore
History has proven that there is only one way to deal with Islam. It's called a Crusade. It is the goal Islam to rule the entire world and to exterminate all other religions while making sharia the only law . They will never quit. This has been proven by many centuries of history. The only way to combat Islam is through genocide. And even then, it's only a temporary fix.
If you truly believe Jesus died for you, then honor his teachings better than this.

#142
keithprosser
keithprosser's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 3,052
3
3
3
keithprosser's avatar
keithprosser
3
3
3
-->
@Castin
I was going to parody G by replacing 'Islam' with Jews... but that could backfire!  Try it mentally.

The way that anti-islamic/anti-muslim comments have become normalised is very worrying to me.  Here In the 70's there was a lot of anti-black stuff, but it was never 'mainstream' the way islamophobia has become.  We are all islamophobes now.
#143
Castin
Castin's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,231
3
2
7
Castin's avatar
Castin
3
2
7
-->
@keithprosser
9/11 changed the world.
#144
Castin
Castin's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,231
3
2
7
Castin's avatar
Castin
3
2
7
-->
@keithprosser
I don't disagree - why do people assume everything has to be adversarial!

I wanted to stress the non-monolithic nature of islam.  Maybe I shouldn't have said 'But...'!
It was the "but".

#145
Plisken
Plisken's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 706
2
1
5
Plisken's avatar
Plisken
2
1
5
-->
@keithprosser
People of the transitional states without dignity should be demanding the necessary protections and a full recognition of humanity.  

#146
Goldtop
Goldtop's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,706
2
2
2
Goldtop's avatar
Goldtop
2
2
2
-->
@Grugore
History has proven that there is only one way to deal with Islam. It's called a Crusade.
You do realize the Crusades did not go or end well for Christians, right? They lost.
#147
keithprosser
keithprosser's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 3,052
3
3
3
keithprosser's avatar
keithprosser
3
3
3
-->
@Goldtop
Christians win sometimes!

islam spread throughout spain right up to france but were defeated by the Franks in 771 CE - otherwise we might be Muslims today!


#148
keithprosser
keithprosser's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 3,052
3
3
3
keithprosser's avatar
keithprosser
3
3
3
correction; not 771; the battle of tours was 732 CE. 

#149
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,566
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@secularmerlin
 you told me that muslims could alter the quran. Show me your evidence for this assumption. 
The Quran is just a book. Books can be altered. I'm not sure what your asking for proof of here.

This is not just any old  book of words to Muslims. Stop being so ignorant. This "book" holds the unalterable word of their god. 

Of course Muslims could alter the quran.

Prove it

As I said I'm not sure what proof you need that books can and sometimes are edited, poorly translated or deliberately altered between printings.
 You haven't even thought this through have you.


So why don't YOU for a start, explain to Muslims how they can alter the unalterable word of the god without committing blasphemy? 

How about starting here?

First, majority of Muslims would have to be be persuaded that Quran is not the literal speech from the voice of their God, but inspiration invoked in a simple man which he interpreted it in his own imperfect understanding and the understanding of his time and place.

But wait!!!!!

To that will come the extremely big obstacle that Quran and the hadith is very much believed by the absolute majority of Muslims to be the literal speech of an omniscient god . The angel Gabriel coming down to Muhammad with the quranic verses is too much a part of the faith and the scripture for it be omitted or altered, and any talk of the quran not being the literal word of God has never and will never gain the support of the majority. 

What about trying this then?

 Persuading the majority of Muslims that Quran was sent only for a specific time and place and the actions of Muhammad were valid only for that time?

But wait!!!!!

But Quran is believed to be the final and perfect message to all of mankind, that being another inherent aspect of Islamic faith and the scripture,it has never changed and very unlikely to ever do.

OK what about this?

Persuaded Muslims that parts of the scripture are morally wrong, and should be rejected?

But wait!!! again!!!!!

That would mean that either the omniscient, omnibenevolent god was wrong. An utterly blasphemous idea, so again, is very far from likely to gain foothold among the majority of Muslims.

So I wait with baited breath how YOU are going to explain to MUSLIMS how their holy god sent book, passed onto them PHYSICALLY via The angel Gabriel  down to Muhammad can alter these sacred UNALTERABLE words?

Like I have asked you now three times now, to prove to  all how THEY are going  alter there book.?

#150
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,566
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@Castin
9/11 changed the world. 

It did, via muslims fighting the cause of Islam.