Think Islam is a religion of peace? Think again.

Author: Grugore

Posts

Total: 293
#91
Plisken
Plisken's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 706
2
1
5
Plisken's avatar
Plisken
2
1
5
-->
@keithprosser
The word of that type of scholar is basically worthless, because they are presuming that the fundamentals are wrong from their own standpoint, and they are unorthodox, theological imbeciles probably arguing for heresy through an admission colored by quasi-Christian humanism

#92
keithprosser
keithprosser's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 3,052
3
3
3
keithprosser's avatar
keithprosser
3
3
3
-->
@Plisken
You sound just like an islamic fanatic! 

It seems fanatics of both sides are closer to each other than they are to their own moderates.


#93
Plisken
Plisken's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 706
2
1
5
Plisken's avatar
Plisken
2
1
5
-->
@keithprosser
If you can't agree that the scholars that hold the fundamentals of Islam are Islamic, that doesn't make real Muslims fanatical.  That view must be informed by bigotry and ignorance.  The scholars gunning for heresy are in fact, the fanatics.

#94
keithprosser
keithprosser's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 3,052
3
3
3
keithprosser's avatar
keithprosser
3
3
3
-->
@Plisken
If you can't agree that the scholars that hold the fundamentals of Islam are Islamic, that doesn't make real Muslims fanatical.  That view must be informed by bigotry and ignorance.  The scholars gunning for heresy are in fact, the fanatics.

I suppose 'Fundamentalism' is a word that refers to a species of Christan exegesis that doesn't carry over into Islam directly.  It does not refer to the 'fundamentals' of a religion but to a narrowly 'literalist' interpretation of scripture. 

Many muslims reject the label 'moderate' because 'moderate Muslim' seems to imply they are not 'full muslims'.  They say it is theselves who are muslims and the fanatics are not muslims at all.   Misunderstanding that meant that Turkish premier Erdogan's comments that 'There is no Islamic terror' and 'There is no such thing as moderate islam' were widely misconstrued.


#95
Castin
Castin's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,231
3
2
7
Castin's avatar
Castin
3
2
7
-->
@Mopac
You know, the most charitable benefit of the doubt type readings of the Koran might give the impression that... sure, uh.. maybe this is a religion of peace...

It becomes a lot harder after you read the hadith.
There is no widely agreed upon set of hadiths. Different groups pick and choose as they like. But the Quran is followed by all.
#96
Mopac
Mopac's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 8,050
3
4
7
Mopac's avatar
Mopac
3
4
7
-->
@Castin
I think there is good enough consensus.


And beside that, I'd like to make it very clear that it is really difficult to interpret the Koran in a peaceful sense unless you are really trying to. 

I know it might be hard to accept for those who don't want to believe that this could be the case... but the entire goal of Islam as a religious political movement is the subjugation of the entire planet.

And I did notice this while studying Islam in the most charitable way I could, that Islam cannot be seperated from the state. Islam is the state.

And really, history speaks volumes. Islam spread by the sword even in the lifetime of its prophet, who really was not as nice of a fellow as his followers like to pretend he is.

Believe me, I don't like saying this stuff either. 

I go to an Antiochian church, and there are people there who are from the Muslim world. They are all in agreement that they are not nice to Christians over there. 
#97
Plisken
Plisken's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 706
2
1
5
Plisken's avatar
Plisken
2
1
5
-->
@Mopac
That's roughly where I have arrived  though I don't have any right yet to seriously criticize it.  Because of the discipline, Islam can be quite nice where it leans on the civilization its consuming, and even rather beautiful where Muslims lean on the bible.  Sometimes I wonder if my own country acts about the same way
#98
disgusted
disgusted's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,959
2
3
3
disgusted's avatar
disgusted
2
3
3
-->
@Mopac
And beside that, I'd like to make it very clear that it is really difficult to interpret the Koran in a peaceful sense unless you are really trying to. 
Ditto the bible.

#99
Mopac
Mopac's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 8,050
3
4
7
Mopac's avatar
Mopac
3
4
7
-->
@disgusted
If you really want to learn, go to an Orthodox church and talk to a priest.

#100
keithprosser
keithprosser's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 3,052
3
3
3
keithprosser's avatar
keithprosser
3
3
3
-->
@Mopac
If you really want to learn, go to an Orthodox church and talk to a priest.
Which mosque did you learn Islam at?

#101
keithprosser
keithprosser's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 3,052
3
3
3
keithprosser's avatar
keithprosser
3
3
3
-->
@Castin
But the Quran is followed by all.
But they don't all follow the same interpretation.  The dominant Sunni sect has no central authority and 'Papal infallibilty' does not exist in Islam.

#102
Castin
Castin's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,231
3
2
7
Castin's avatar
Castin
3
2
7
-->
@keithprosser
I think that goes without saying for any sacred text of any major religion, keith.
#103
keithprosser
keithprosser's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 3,052
3
3
3
keithprosser's avatar
keithprosser
3
3
3
-->
@Castin
The doctrine and dogma of the catholic church is set centrally.   Islam is even less centralised than protesant sects.  There is no priestly hierarchy of vicar, bishop, archibishop etc in islam.   The leader of each mosque has considerable power and autonomy.
#104
Castin
Castin's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,231
3
2
7
Castin's avatar
Castin
3
2
7
-->
@keithprosser
If you really want to learn, go to an Orthodox church and talk to a priest.
Which mosque did you learn Islam at?
Point to keith.
#105
Castin
Castin's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,231
3
2
7
Castin's avatar
Castin
3
2
7
-->
@keithprosser
The doctrine and dogma of the catholic church is set centrally.   Islam is even less centralised than protesant sects.  There is no priestly hierarchy of vicar, bishop, archibishop etc in islam.   The leader of each mosque has considerable power and autonomy.
Not sure what point you're trying to make to me, old bean. I can see that you disagree with post #95, but I'm not too clear on why.

#106
keithprosser
keithprosser's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 3,052
3
3
3
keithprosser's avatar
keithprosser
3
3
3
-->
@Castin
I don't disagree - why do people assume everything has to be adversarial!

I wanted to stress the non-monolithic nature of islam.  Maybe I shouldn't have said 'But...'!


#107
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,566
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@keithprosser
Which mosque did you learn Islam at?

What has that got to do with anything? Are you seriously suggesting one has to attend a mosque to understand Islam? 

Like Didsbury mosque Manchester where a hate speech leaflet was issued to all followers of the Islamic faith  and where the Manchester bomber Salman Abedi and others were known to have been "radicalised"? This mosque has a history of islamic extremism.  At least 16 muslims living near this mosque have been imprisoned and or died fighting jihad with Islamic State.


66% of "British muslims" said the would not report on there "brothers" joining Islamic State, this goes back to the Quran saying anyone who sides with a non muslim will end up in "hells fire".  Thousands of  "British muslims" said suicide bombings is justified. This too is because of what is taught in the Quran 4.74. "So let those who trade the life of this world for the Hereafter fight in God's cause. Whoever fights in God's cause, whether he is killed or victorious, We will grant him a tremendous reward".  And don't start with " just a few muslims" because this is pure falacey. The government report that there are at least between 26 and 30,000 known Muslim jihadis in Britain alone. 

"UK home to up to 25,000 Islamist extremists who could pose threat, EU official warns"




Just recently Nadia Murad spoke to BBC's' Hard Talk telling that she was a victim of "rape jihad" , is she lying? Is she making it all up? . It is also known as "womb jihad" where muslims - that is to say more than just one muslim - believe it is their duty to "seed" non believer females. Have you forgotten the raped children  Rotherham and Rochdale, already?

This is on our doorstep, but you seem to want to turn a blind eye and say it isn't happening. .

If you believe I am only showing the bad side of Islam, please feel free to show me the good side. 
#108
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,566
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@secularmerlin
That being said exactly what would you like to see happen in regards to Islam and muslims?

Your doing it again, lumping my opinions of ISLAM with muslims. This is not me doing this. It is you. And seeing that YOU have AGAIN lumped them together, I would say it is for MUSLIMS to reform ISLAM and the Quran. Not me. But you see they can't do this and wouldn't even try because according to MUSLIMS the quran is the perfect UNALTERABLE word of Allah as given to the perfect role model Muhammad so what is there to be "reformed". 

For that matter what would you like to see done about other possibly violent beliefs?

One cannot do anything about an idea, even if it is a bad one.  And this thread happens to be about ISLAM, not "other possibly violent beliefs". so stay on point as the OP has requested.


#109
keithprosser
keithprosser's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 3,052
3
3
3
keithprosser's avatar
keithprosser
3
3
3
-->
@Stephen
I can assure you my TV is working fine and i do read newspapers.

My position is that it is wrong to identify the source of the problem to some inherent or intrinsic property of Islam.  Much of what is blamed on Islam is not intrinsic to islam, and in some cases it goes against Islamic principles. 

Fact - young men are being radicalised and commiting random acts of violence.
Fact - muslim women are being abused and getting raped and killed.
etc etc.
All that and more is true - of course it is.

What I don't accept is that putting it all down to 'Islam' and highighting some verse in the koran or hadith to prove it is anything like a satisfactory analysis.  It smacks of cheap, nasty populism of the worst kind. 




#110
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,566
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2

it is wrong to identify the source of the problem to some inherent or intrinsic property of Islam
In this case the "intrinsic and inherent source" of perpetual Jihad against the non believer happens to be the Quran. 


If you believe I am only showing the bad side of Islam, please feel free to show me the good side. 
#111
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,566
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@Grugore
Idiots claiming that Islam is a peaceful religion. Well, I'm here to set the record straight.
  
 
I have to say, you haven't done must setting straight of records, yourself. Why is that?
Posts op 1 – 65 not  refuting Mr Richardson- 69 Muhammad murdering paedophile – 83 requests to stay on topic.

Simply posting a link of someone else's work The Story of Mohammed.  Islam Unveiled( as interesting as it is) doesn't amount to YOU setting "the record straight" for  the  "Idiots Claiming that Islam is a peaceful religion". 

#112
keithprosser
keithprosser's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 3,052
3
3
3
keithprosser's avatar
keithprosser
3
3
3
I don't think you will find anything in the koran that jusififies grooming gangs.  
#113
Polytheist-Witch
Polytheist-Witch's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 4,188
3
3
6
Polytheist-Witch's avatar
Polytheist-Witch
3
3
6
-->
@secularmerlin
Sure it does. No one should have religion cause some of it hurts your feelings. Get over it. 
#114
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,566
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@keithprosser
I don't think you will find anything in the koran ......


It is what IS in the quran I have a problem with. And I think you mean rape gangs IN
Rochdale
Huddersfield
Telford
Oxford
Rotherham,   to name a few, all have one thing in common. 



Mā malakat aymānukum




The problemis that we in the west are woefully ignorant of Islam
 
Was is  the AyatollahKhomeini ignorant of islam?
 
 
 
“But those who study Islamic Holy Warwill understand why Islam wants to conquer the whole world. Thosewho know nothing of Islam pretend that Islam counsels against war. Those(whosay this) are witless.”
 
AyatollahKhomeini;


But you understand perfectly what the quran teaches , don't you Keith? More even that the Ayatollah himself!

If you believe I am only showing the bad side of Islam, THEN PLEASE FEEL FREE TO SHOW ME THE GOOD SIDE.. 

#115
Mopac
Mopac's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 8,050
3
4
7
Mopac's avatar
Mopac
3
4
7
-->
@keithprosser
A Mosque in Chicago.

I told you, I was really considering it for a while.

But I eventually realized that there was something very wrong with it.


This was before I found Orthodox Christianity, which I feel very confident in. 


#116
Mopac
Mopac's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 8,050
3
4
7
Mopac's avatar
Mopac
3
4
7
I'd like to note that I've had plenty of Muslim friends who are very nice people and make for good conversation. I don't believe in persecuting people for their faith either.

"Love perfected casts out all fear."

At least one former Muslim I knew became a Christian after talking with me, and they were Iranian. You can get killed for that sort of thing in Iran! In fact, leaving Islam is punishable by death under Muslim law.

We Orthodox Christians do not kill apostates, we pray for them.

#117
secularmerlin
secularmerlin's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 7,093
3
3
3
secularmerlin's avatar
secularmerlin
3
3
3
-->
@Stephen
Of course Muslims could alter the quran. All it would take is the agreement of enough Muslims. Of course that would only hold true of Muslims that except this new doctrine. I don't think there is anything to be done about the dangers of faith and of course faith can be a positive force in peoples lives. This also applies to just about any faith based beliefs. The beliefs themselves are not the problem after all. The only problem is that some humans use such beliefs to control and or demonize and or justify harming other humans. Since this us true of all faith based beliefs I don't feel this is off topic.
#118
secularmerlin
secularmerlin's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 7,093
3
3
3
secularmerlin's avatar
secularmerlin
3
3
3
-->
@Polytheist-Witch
I am not talking about my feelings.  Am also not talking about religion itself but only the act of using it to justify abuse.
#119
keithprosser
keithprosser's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 3,052
3
3
3
keithprosser's avatar
keithprosser
3
3
3
-->
@Mopac
You can get killed for that sort of thing in Iran!
The idea is to make sure you don't get killed for being a Muslim here!   Or it should be.

Creating and exacerbating division and strife is easy - even Grugore and Stephen can do that!   I want to see something constructive for a change.   



#120
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,566
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@Mopac
A Mosque in Chicago. I told you, I was really considering it for a while.But I eventually realized that there was something very wrong with it.

  What was wrong with it that made you "suddenly" realise it wasn't for you? It seems prosser only accepts the words of people who have actually visited and attended a Mosque, such as the well respected Islamic Scholar  Muḥammad ibn Isḥāq ibn Yasār ibn Khiyār was an Arab Muslim historian and hagiography who wrote  The  Biography of the Islamic Prophet Muhammad telling us that the perfect Muslim role model Muhammad the prophet murdered over 600 men and boys because they refused  convert to Islam and whose favourite pastime was lighting fires on the chests of his captives.

Or Ayatollah Khomeini who had devoted his entire life to the study of Islamic doctrine and became the spiritual and religious leader of the Islamic Republic of Iran and the foremost religious authority, wrote:

“But those who study Islamic Holy War will understand why Islam wants to conquer the whole world. Those who know nothing of Islam pretend that Islam counsels against war. Those(who say this) are witless.”


No, scratch those those two, they seem to be anti Islam for the sake of it, they aren't telling the truth they are just trying to strike an irrational fear and dread into the minds of the non-believer, so the opinions of these two learned  scholars of Islam don't count for much.  They, in the mind of Keith prosser, are among those who are  " woefully ignorant of Islam "