Think Islam is a religion of peace? Think again.

Author: Grugore

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#181
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@Plisken
It's not an income tax, and I would wager the idea is to establish a covenant with equal rights, the tax being an exchange for protection. 

No, it is a protection racket, extortion.
#182
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@disgusted
Are Israeli soldiers dashing the heads of their enemies children today in the 21st century?

They are though shooting 4yr olds, heroes or what?


Absolutely terrible I agree. and of course they aren't heroes and I don't believe anyone here is saying they are.  And of course they should be held to account.
But can you find me any references that these Israeli murderers were killing in the name of their god, on the strict instructions of their god and to further the cause of their religious beliefs, as are the followers of Islam instructed to do by their book and their god?  Did this particular Israeli soldier  for instance, shout, " Jehovah is great" before opening fire on this innocent toddler?

Please, save me the lecture on how bad ALL of these so called "religious" beliefs systems are. You're preaching to the converted. I know how bad they ALL are. I know how bad they ALL can be, I know how bad they ALL have been in the past, and I know how bad it will get before it gets any better.
#183
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@keithprosser
The Islamic world is tearing itself apart - I think its because the traditionalists saw their end insight and they are good at mobilising the mob
 
There you are again .Trying to play down the impact and influence that Islam has had and  is having around the world today. It is not “ a mob” of a few thousand people that are being “mobilised” is it? It was whole Islamic nations that went into frenzied hate against the west mode, over a book and a few cartoons. Our own government have told us that there are somewhere between 26-30,000 known Jihadis in the Uk alone. Germany have reported similar figures
 
You tried using this tactic of playing the threat of Islam down before . Here where you wote>. 
islam spread throughout spain right up to france but were defeated by the Franks in 771 CE -otherwise we might be Muslims today!
This is you trying to make out that Islam was easily halted in one battle and that Islam was nothing more than a – flash -  in -  the - pan.
 
And this:
 Islam isn't a thing with a mind or goals and it can't be said that islam having failed in the 8th is trying to takeover Europe again. 
 
You had to be reminded that Islam had, for over 400 years  waged war and conquest expanding across the globe into Spain, Poland,Hungary France, Yugoslavia and the Caucuses. Into the holy lands and as far East as the Indian subcontinent.  And was by no means a – what you called a “failure”.
 Islam has had three of the biggest and long lasting empires that the world had ever known. Again, your are either ignorant to these facts or are being disingenuous AGAIN.

#184
disgusted
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@Stephen
Then why single out Islam?
#185
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@disgusted
Then why single out Islam?

This is not my thread. I didn't start it and I didn't create it, I suggest you ask the op why he "singled out islam". But remember, this is a religion sub forum, that is to say a forum to discuss religion and not just a specific religion.

It appears to me, looking over the pages of religious topics that the only SINGLE religion actually being discussed by far is Christianity. It seems then that christianity can be discussed with immunity, and impunity and without complaint. Now that is blatant bias even though I have created many threads on Christianity.

I haven't noticed you or keith prosser accusing me of "singling out Christianity and or Christians" or being a Christianophob or a bigot or even a racist, Why is that?. Did I miss it? Because I have created more threads on Christianity by an extremely wide margin.


And I haven't "singled out Islam". I have been more critical of christianity and the bible than I have Islam, By about 30  to 1 . Simply check my  profile

You will find  one   concerning  and Pakistan's blasphemy laws.

You forgot to address my question.

Can you find me any references that these Israeli murderers were killing in the name of their god, on the strict instructions of their god and to further the cause of their religious beliefs, as are the followers of Islam instructed to do by their book and their god?  Did this particular Israeli soldier  for instance, shout, " Jehovah is great" before opening fire on this innocent toddler? 
#186
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@Stephen
This particular soldier was a sniper who shot a 4yr old boy through the eye, he wasn't protecting Israel so what was his motive as a Jew? A yhwh given right?
#187
keithprosser
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@Stephen
Christianity is pacifist.   It teaches Christians to endure persecution - even to welcome it.   Islam is different - it teaches that  Muslims should fight to defend themselves.  

Islam teaches that violence can only be justified if it is the only option and in used defensively, not offensively.

Are those principles subverted to serve personal or political ends?   Of course it is - often.


#188
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@disgusted
This particular soldier was a sniper who shot a 4yr old boy through the eye, he wasn't protecting Israel so what was his motive as a Jew? A yhwh given right?

I don't know. That is why I asked you.  Is there any  evidence that this was a religiously motivated attack as to why this murdering Israeli shot this innocent baby. Is this murderer on record as shouting  "I am killing this baby in the name of yhwh as it is my yhwh given right? Or did he just shout "yhwh is great"? 

Maybe you can put up the whole story up for me so I can see for myself.


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#189
Grugore
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@Stephen
Know what I like about you? You're an atheist asshole. But you're an honest atheist asshole. ;) I'm still praying for you, btw.
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#190
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@Stephen
Several times, Palestinians have used children as suicide bombers. And what was a child doing there in the first place? I would have shot him too. Don't want your kids shot? Leave them with the babysitter...duh

#191
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Christianity is pacifist.   It teaches Christians to endure persecution - even to welcome it.  

Yes I know it is pacifist, I am not sure they "welcome" persecution though. That said, it doesn't stop you and others throwing Christianity into the mix as some kind of defense and or retaliatory excuse for the barbarity of Islam.


Islam is different - it teaches that  Muslims should fight to defend themselves.   

BS!  It teaches violence towards ANYONE for simply not believing in Allah and the so called prophet Muhammad. So stop lying . Let me see all your evidence for that disingenuous statement. The goal of Islam is world domination. You keep talking about me and a few others "cherry picking verses" and putting my own interpretation to them. How do you know what is the correct interpretation? 

I have asked you twice now to interpret this verse for me and up to this point you have chosen to ignore it. I say this verse CONFIRMS what I believe the goal of Islam is and what ISLAM tells us its goal i:. perpetual Jihad   "[until] the religion, all of it, is for Allah". . So here you go, the floor is yours>>


Quran 8:39
 And fight them until there is no fitnah and[until] the religion, all of it, is for Allah. And if they cease - then indeed,Allah is Seeing of what they do.

Islam teaches that violence can only be justified if it is the only option and in used defensively, not offensively.

BS again!

Are those principles subverted to serve personal or political ends?   Of course it is - often.

 MUSLIM scholars tell us often that islam IS a religion of war. But these well educated  scholars, YOU choose to ignore and look for some excuse for the muslims  who actually are carrying out their gods word to the letter telling us, THEY are interpreting the qur'an and the hadith wrong. 

If you believe I am only showing the bad side of Islam, please feel free to show me the good side. 

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#192
Grugore
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@keithprosser
The problem with such a falsehood is that Muslims consider your desire to worship some other God as an attack on Islam. Islam hates, and wants to completely destroy, everything that is not Islam. And if that's not enough, the fools are killing each other because they are not considered to be proper Muslims... Meaning that they are not as bloodthirsty as they should be.
#193
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@Grugore
--> @Stephen

Several times, Palestinians have used children as suicide bombers. And what was a child doing there in the first place? I would have shot him too. Don't want your kids shot? Leave them with the babysitter...duh


Why are you directing that post at me? I didn't bring murdering Israeli soldiers killing 4 year olds. See post #180 above
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#194
Grugore
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@Stephen
It wasn't directed at you. I was simply commenting on the ridiculous claims about the brutality of Israel. Why did the rag heads bring their kids to a border protest? It's because they are perfectly willing to sacrifice their own children for political gain. 

#195
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The problem with such a falsehood is that Muslims consider your desire to worship some other God as an attack on Islam. 

This is true. To worship any other god but Allah and to disbelieve Muhammad to be his prophet   comes under  " causing mischief" and "waging war against Allah".

But I am sure Keith prosser  will be along any moment with accusations of "cherry picking" -  "quoting out of context" - misinterpretation" - , islamophobia , "bigotry" and "racism", although Islam is not a race.
#196
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Interesting point of view from this MUSLIM Arab


#197
keithprosser
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@Stephen
"racism", although Islam is not a race.
Really we need two words 'muslimophobia' and 'islamophobia'.   Muslims aren't a race either, but to neo-nazi skinheads they are!

It's akin to anti-semitism and anti-zionism.

the problem for islamophobes like me is that muslimophobes try to steal our clothes.  One result of that is that is that you seem to think I condone or am an apologist for islamist violence and child rape.  i'm not.   I just believe one thinks more clearly when not frothing at the mouth with rhetorical indignation! 


#198
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@Grugore
Evidence that christians are murderous cretins.
#199
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@Grugore
rag heads

Do you pray to your God with that mouth?
#200
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@Grugore
Know what I like about you? You're an atheist asshole. But you're an honest atheist asshole. ;) I'm still praying for you, btw.

I don't know what I would be called. I simply do not believe these christian scriptures the same way as you do. I have made my stance clear many times now.
I suppose it won't be long before Keith prosser asks me again, for the billionth time, what my stance on the christian scriptures are. 

But this is a thread, your thread , concerning Islam and not my beliefs. 


#201
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@keithprosser
I just believe one thinks more clearly when not frothing at the mouth with rhetorical indignation!  

Very poor show that, Keith, even from an apologist like you. 
So stating facts in response to you and your statements  is me "frothing at the mouth" is it. 

rhetorical indignation!  

Is all I have done on this thread is quote facts and probably 99% of those have been from ISLAMIC scholarly sources as does the author Harry Richardson in the PDF posted by the OP. . Sources you just don't accept. I cannot help you there, you either believe their words or you don't. 

After reading the pdf post in the OP's link. It has inspired me to order some of the works of a medical doctor Dr Wafa Sultan who also trained as a psychiatrist in Syria,  who is quoted by Harry Richardson in the PDF .

The God Who Hates>>> see link below.


Here are some of her quotes. or what you would call "rhetorical indignation! "


"Islam has never been misunderstood. Islam is the problem. But no one is stating the truth. No one is taking a hard look at the root of terrorism which is the brain washing machine called Islam. Islam is not up to me, is not up to any Muslim – man or woman. Islam is exactly what the prophet Muhammad did and said. In order to understand Islam you have to read the biography of Muhammad. It is very traumatising. It is very shocking".



"You need to understand that Islam is the problem. I am sick and tired of people here in the West asking me to soften my message. I am sick and tired of people asking me, "Are you trying to change 1.3 billion people?" Yes, I am trying!"

But of course , in your apologetic opinion, this Dr wouldn't be qualified to comment on Islam, would she Keith?

Really we need two words 'muslimophobia' and 'islamophobia'.   
No doubt that will soon be the case when government once more panders to an idea. I have already said that this is only a matter of time before THE NON WORD "islamophobia" is defined officially and then simply criticizing>>>>> ISLAM<<<<< will be a hate crime.I bet you cannot wait?   Like Dr Wafa Sultan says " "You need to understand that Islam is the problem".



>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>If you believe I am only showing the bad side of Islam, please feel free to show me the good side. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
#202
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@keithprosser
Really we needtwo words 'muslimophobia' and 'islamophobia'.   
I knew that I had mentioned somethingsimilar before,. I don't doubt  for a second that this silly idea is on the cards.

Post #79 above Added: 12.15.1807: 24AM 

"But that said,  Iam sure it won't be .long before Muslims start demanding they are seen as onerace this then will give a "definition" to the silly word"islamophobia" and every White Westerner who criticizes Islam, willbe charged with a "hate crime", now that would be "racist"wouldn't it? ; we are not far off that now."
 
 
Indeed Keith I can seethe pitfall it this pathetic suggestion. Can you.

#203
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I don't see the pitfall at all.  Racists exist.  'Muslims' are - to them - just another bunch of foreigners along with blacks and pakis.   On the other hand Islam is an abstract religious, philosophical and political system.

Many 'anti-foreigner' individuals do use the cover of criticising of Islam to mask their underlying xenophobia. 

In my view most criticism of islam on the net and in print today is racist (or if you must nit-pick over words,  'xenophobic') in intent. 

For example, pointing out that the members of a grooming gang are Muslims is not a critique of Islamic theology - it is racism.

#204
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I don't see the pitfall at all. 

 I didn't think you would. 

For example, pointing out that the members of a grooming gang are Muslims is not a critique of Islamic theology - it is racism.

RAPE! gangs you mean. And pointing out that the members of the RAPE! gangs were 99.999% muslim is not racist. You see, what they all have in common is NOT RACE, Keith, NO, it happens to be ISLAM.

And here is why it is not  just race based but ISLAMIC faith based

There have been Afghani RAPE gangs. Somali RAPE gangs, Iraqi RAPE gangs and there have been what YOU call "PAKI" rape gangs in the UK alone . You see Keith,?   All different races with one thing in common: ISLAM.
 
Get real just for once in your apologetic life.
 
Read again what Dr Wafa Sultan has to say. Read her quotes, or what you would call "rhetorical indignation! "


"Islam has never been misunderstood. Islam is the problem. But no one is stating the truth. No one is taking a hard look at the root of terrorism which is the brain washing machine called Islam. Islam is not up to me, is not up to any Muslim – man or woman. Islam is exactly what the prophet Muhammad did and said. In order to understand Islam you have to read the biography of Muhammad. It is very traumatising. It is very shocking".



"You need to understand that Islam is the problem. I am sick and tired of people here in the West asking me to soften my message. I am sick and tired of people asking me, "Are you trying to change 1.3 billion people?" Yes, I am trying!"

#205
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I don't think a groomer rapes a young girl unwillingly but forces himself out of a sense of duty to Allah.  Cat Stevens' hasn't hijacked any airliners.
'Islam' is too broad to be called 'the problem'.  

#206
Stephen
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@keithprosser

'Islam' is too broad to be called 'the problem'.  


So just as I predicted you don't believe the experts in this field either, those  such as  Dr Wafa Sultan who says" "Islam has never been misunderstood. Islam is the problem. ". She too says " In order to understand Islam you have to read the biography of Muhammad. " and that  "no one is stating the truth" about Islam.  I too  recommended  that you read the biography of Muhammad   at post # 47  above when you were quick to call everyone "ignorant of Islam". do you remember this?

woefully ignorant of Islam 
I said then:
You should read up on it yourself. Can I suggest you start here : The  Biography of the Islamic Prophet Muhammad, by Muḥammad ibn Isḥāq ibn Yasār ibn Khiyār was an Arab Muslim historian and hagiographer. 
ibn Isḥāq who studied islam all his professional life  didn't have clue what he was on about  did he keith? No. But you do don't you.

What about Ayatollah Khomeini  who had devoted his entire life to the study of Islamic doctrine and became the spiritual and religious leader of the Islamic Republic of Iran and the foremost religious authority, who said: 

“But those who study Islamic Holy War will understand why Islam wants to conquer the whole world. Those who know nothing of Islam pretend that Islam counsels against war. Those(who say this) are witless.”

Was he talking out of his arse too Keith?




Cat Stevens' hasn't hijacked any airliners.

If he is the yardstick to which YOU measure Islam by then it is you who is "ignorant of islam"


You haven't explained what  this verse means to you, yet keith.

Quran 8:39
 And fight them until there is no fitnah and[until] the religion, all of it, is for Allah. And if they cease - then indeed,Allah is Seeing of what they do.
 


 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>If you believe I am only showing the bad side of Islam, please feel free to show me the good side.<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

#207
keithprosser
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There have been Afghani RAPE gangs. Somali RAPE gangs, Iraqi RAPE gangs and there have been what YOU call "PAKI" rape gangs in the UK alone . You see Keith,?   All different races with one thing in common: ISLAM.
 
Get real just for once in your apologetic life.


I will - at some point - get annoyed that you think I am in the business of defending Islam.  But if Islam is the reason for rape gangs then why aren't all Muslisms rapists and b)why do non-muslim rape gangs exist?

I don't ask those questions to deflect blame but because the answers matter if we care more about kids getting raped than in demonising Muslims.

I really, really don't want to see Britain Islamicised.  But right now i don't think that is what we should be worried about.  I'm more worried that ethnic divisions will worsen to a point little short of civil war.  Imagine Northern Ireland of the '70s in every British city.

i think it is good to discuss Islam but an awful lot of so called 'discussion' is presenting islam purely as the religion of a bunch of murderers and rapists.  If I want to that sort of stuff I can read the Daily Mail.




 
#208
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@Grugore
Several times, Palestinians have used children as suicide bombers. And what was a child doing there in the first place? I would have shot him too. Don't want your kids shot? Leave them with the babysitter...duh

Here is the exact same proof as Stephen is using to dehumanise Muslims but this numpty is a Cristian thus proving that Christianity is not a religion of peace.
#209
Stephen
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@disgusted
Several times, Palestinians have used children as suicide bombers. And what was a child doing there in the first place? I would have shot him too. Don't want your kids shot? Leave them with the babysitter...duh

Here is the exact same proof as Stephen is using to dehumanise Muslims


That is an extremely lopsided comment, if ever I heard one.  Could you point out where I have actually "dehumanised muslims"?


#210
Stephen
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@keithprosser
I will - at some point - get annoyed that you think I am in the business of defending Islam. 

Frustrated , I'll take that to mean. Frustrated simply because you simply have no answers.


I really, really don't want to see Britain Islamicised. 
Why not? What is wrong with Islam? What is so, so wrong with the "religion of peace" that you don't want it to take over Britain?  

I'm more worried that ethnic divisions will worsen to a point little short of civil war. 

There has ALWAYS been ethnic divisions, in this country and all countries. But many countries still can and do live in relative peace within these divisions. The Islamic ideology - Muhammad -  teaches division from the "Pagan" the "Christian" the "Jew" and the "Kuffar". 


 "Fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them and seize them, confine them, and lie in wait for them in every place of ambush".

  "You, who havebelieved, do not take the Jews and the Christians as allies. They are [in fact]allies of one another".

but you just cannot accept this evidence  and neither will you accept the evidence of the ISLAMIC academics and scholars who actually do know what a barbaric ideology is taught in ISLAM



Imagine Northern Ireland of the '70s in every British city.

YES. I JUST KNEW YOU WOULD HAVE TO GO THERE .  So let me tell you:
It wasn't religious it was political. The IRA didn't make public statements telling us they were at war with us because it was their religious duty and done in the name of god. and they didn't shout "god is great" before or after every atrocity they committed.  IN OTHER WORDS, IT WASN'T A RELIGIOUS WAR


i think it is good to discuss Islam but an awful lot of so called 'discussion' is presenting islam purely as the religion of a bunch of murderers and rapists. 

It is a "religion of a bunch of murderers and rapists". .

i think it is good to discuss Islam

But you don't discuss it, do you!

You have put nothing to this discussion but apologetics. You have ignored the experts in this field, You have dished out all the usual rhetoric and called me an islamophobe and suggested in a veiled fashion that I am racist bigot, for which you have not a single piece of evidence.You have said of  those that criticize Islam " are ignorant of Islam", You have called authors of Islam " hostile witness who wants to inflame and spread anti-islamic feelings" and  you suggest I have " semi-informed prejudices"    AND,  you have offered absolutely nothing to show the ' good side' this barbaric ideology.  This is NOT "discussing" Islam.  It is simply an attempt at defending the indefensible with insults towards anyone who have good reasons not to agree with you .

Almost every post in reply to you I have asked you:

If you believe I am only showing the bad side of Islam, please feel free to show me the good side.

You have even bothered to try to show us all the good side of Islam.  Why?  Because there isn't a bloody good side?


If I want to that sort of stuff I can read the Daily Mail.

 Scraping the barrel keith. You have no defence or excuses for this violent barbaric ideology , so you resort again to suggesting I am racist bigot.
 I read  a extremely wide range of things Keith, including the Biography of Muhammad, the Quran the Bible and the FKN Daily Mail


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>If you believe I am only showing the bad side of Islam, please feel free to show me the good side.<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<