The problem I have with Jesus

Author: PREZ-HILTON
Jesus
Budlight
forgiveness

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#31
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@PREZ-HILTON

The fact ethang doesn't feel bad that an innocent person was tortured and sacrificed for his sins is disgusting. Anyone Christian that watched the passion of the Christ without feeling any guilt is likely a sociopath.
Indeed.

Tradesecret wrote: "Ethang5is a good friend of mine.   If I could be more like him, I would". #76  https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/5359-a-fallen-fine-tuned-universe
This^^^^^^^!!!, from a Pastor and a Chaplain that claims to have a congregation of some 300+ parishioners. #67

#32
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@Elliott
that it is a "concept" not a reality.

 And my point is that -if the bible is to be believed- then the crucifixion was a reality and not just and idea.

 Anyway:

I have no problem with the wages of sin being death

I don't agree with " inheriting sin". And the bible/god can't seem to make up his mind about it either. One minute we are punished for the " iniquity of our fathers for generations to come" Exodus 20:5 and the next he appears to change his mind .
#33
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@PREZ-HILTON
I think a lot of people will disagree but eternal damnation isn't biblical. It is mentioned in revelation that the beast gets thrown into some sort of eternal fire but he actually ends up escaping after 1000 years so even that I don't think is eternal but the fire and brimstone stuff was made up by wild southern Baptist preachers looking to put on a show and get butts in seats. They knew them what newspapers know now. Fear sells

These quotes would seem to refer to Hell
 "And do not fear those who kill the body but cannotkill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body inhell." - Matthew 10:28 
"And these will go away into eternal punishment, butthe righteous into eternal life.” - Matthew 25:46

 Most moderate Christians have now disassociated themselves fromthe idea of Hell. I know the Anglican Church has.
#34
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@Stephen
And my point is that -if the bible is to be believed- then the crucifixion was a reality and not just and idea.
I don’t dispute that it may have been a reality, if Jesus had proclaimed to be or was proclaimed to be the messiah, he would probably have been crucified for treason.

I don't agree with " inheriting sin". And the bible/god can't seem to make up his mind about it either. One minute we are punished for the " iniquity of our fathers for generations to come" Exodus 20:5 and the next he appears to change his mind .
Inherent sin is another horrible idea.
#35
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Pay for your own sins?

One kind of punishment is that you have to read designated words from a book that is about 2000 years old every single day(everyday before sleep, every time you eat dinner, and everytime someone breaks their ankle! Absurd, right?) and go to a classic looking pointy building as a mandatory session every sunday, etc. and read those things together with strangers and listen to some bloke talk for hours to you about why everything included in the ~2000yro book is right and why everything isn't in it is wrong.

That is how a lot of people pay for it. Admittedly eventually some of them adjust to this mode of life and pass it to their children along with their *slightly* reactionary ideals passed to them by their parents.

Sure, this post is so falsely stereotypical that it probably angers Christians. My belief is that if you aren't passionate, don't believe in Jesus and just remain the secular happy little guy you were at the beginning of life before you were being taught that there is a God.
#36
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@Elliott
Inherent sin is another horrible idea.
The sin is only inherent if children are disobedient to God.

Plus, doesnt your society usually punish children for the crimes of their parents?
#37
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@PREZ-HILTON

.

PREZ-HILTON, 

What is the big rigamarole in Jesus' Forgiveness Doctrine in the first place? Accept it and be happy for Christ's sake!  Always remember, our Jesus as the brutal and bloody serial killer Yahweh God incarnate, states with specificity that we were born into sin in the first place, and it unfortunately stays with us until the end. "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me." (Psalm 51:5)

Besides, I love the "hook" of Christianity where it shows us that it matters not when we TRUE Christians sin at any time, because we are ALWAYS forgiven, therefore there is absolutely no incentive not to sin, because all we have to do is to believe in Jesus, praise as the passage below so states: 

“To him all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.” (Acts 10:43)

With the above being said, FAKE Christians like Catholics go against Jesus' words in Acts 10:43 and submit themselves to "Sweat Boxes," aka, "Confession Booths,"  where they needlessly talk to a more than likely PEDOPHILE PRIEST that will tell them that their sins are forgiven after they say 3 Hail Marys, yada, yada, yada.  Or, they pray to Jesus for forgiveness, all the while being blatantly ignorant of Act 10:43 in being pseudo-christians.  

One reason that I came to Christianity is the fact that because of my proclivities in doing certain things, I am always forgiven upon them. Although, the main reason I chose the Christian religion is the biblical fact that there will be NO WOMEN in heaven, which will be a joy because I have had 7 wives to date that I had to put with, and where in the end, there will no women in our glorious 1400 square mile heaven with its walls 215 feet in depth, which hopefully will keep out the Jehovah Witnesses and Mormons, praise!
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#38
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@Best.Korea
Yes. The forgiveness is offered. It is not mandatory to accept it.

Yes. This evil world doesnt deserve forgiveness by their own logical standards.

God sends gifts to the evil people in an attempt to correct them and make them better. God wants for people to be good or at least make them better than they are.
Why would God do something like this?

How about we just screw it and say this world is created by ancient aliens. That is more believable than an intangible arbitrary glow of nothingness and everythingness somehow providing us moral and spiritual support.

#39
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The sin is only inherent if children are disobedient to God.
 As I don’t believe in God I can’t be disobedient, therefore I am free of sin.

Plus, doesnt your society usually punish children for the crimes of their parents?
No ... And if that question is leading to "abortion," I'm not playing.


#40
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@Intelligence_06
Why would God do something like this?
Because God is good?


How about we just screw it
Ummm well, you are most certainly free to do that...
#41
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@Best.Korea

.
Best.Korea,

YOUR REVEALING QUOTE: "The sin is only inherent if children are disobedient to God."

You are correct, therefore when said "children" are disobedient to Jesus as God, they are to be BEATEN with a rod, praise Jesus' revenge!

"Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou BEATEST him with the rod, he shall not die. Thou shalt BEAT HIM with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell." (Proverbs.23:13-14)

It is truly terrible that in todays societies that BEATING children with a hard sturdy rod, even if it leaves bloody black and blue painful hemorrhages, is considered child abuse. But like Jesus' inspired words said, we are to follow Gods rules and not mans: "But Peter and the apostles answered, “We must obey God rather than men." (Acts 5:29)

Best.Korea, how many times have you had to BEAT your children with a sturdy hard rod because they got out of place with Christian teachings?
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#42
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@Elliott
As I don’t believe in God I can’t be disobedient, thereforeI am free of sin
False. Your disobedience towards God is found in your breaking of his commands. Those commands exist irrelevant of your disbelief, and "you breaking commands" also exists irrelevant of your disbelief.
If you are a murderer, not believing in God does not change that.


And if that question is leading to "abortion," I'm not playing.
So you know your sin before it was even said to you.

Abortion is one example.

But yes, your society punishes children for the crimes of their parents.

If parents dont look after their child, and child ends up being hit by a car and killed, then the child got punished for the crime of his parents.

If parents end up in prison, doesnt the child's life become worse if child has no one to take care of him?

Didnt it happen before, that CPS take children away from parents and forces children to use psychiatric drugs?

Didnt it happen before, that parents are allowed to circumcise their children and society helps them in that?

Didnt it happen before, that parents can ruin child's health by feeding him junk food provided by your society?

Didnt it happen before, that your society treated orphans very poorly?

Didnt it happen before, that children with poor parents are at a disadvantage in your society?

Therefore, when God forgives children who are obedient to Him, He indeed has more mercy than your society who forgives no one. And your society is one of the better ones?
#43
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The problem I have with Jesus is if he were alive today and a member of DA he would probably have a profile pic of him holding an AR-15 rifle.
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#44
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@BrotherD.Thomas
am always forgiven upon them. Although, the main reason I chose the Christian religion is the biblical fact that there will be NO WOMEN in heaven, 
I didn't know about the no women thing. Perhaps I should try the modem heaven with 72 virgins
#45
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@Best.Korea
False. Your disobedience towards God is found in your breaking of his commands. Those commands exist irrelevant of your disbelief, and "you breaking commands" also exists irrelevant of your disbelief.
If you are a murderer, not believing in God does not change that.

And if you are a murderer, believing in God doesn’t change the fact that you are a murderer.

So you know your sin before it was even said to you.

Abortion is one example.

But yes, your society punishes children for the crimes of their parents.

If parents dont look after their child, and child ends up being hit by a car and killed, then the child got punished for the crime of his parents.

If parents end up in prison, doesnt the child's life become worse if child has no one to take care of him?

Didnt it happen before, that CPS take children away from parents and forces children to use psychiatric drugs?

Didnt it happen before, that parents are allowed to circumcise their children and society helps them in that?

Didnt it happen before, that parents can ruin child's health by feeding him junk food provided by your society?

Didnt it happen before, that your society treated orphans very poorly?

Didnt it happen before, that children with poor parents are at a disadvantage in your society?

Therefore, when God forgives children who are obedient to Him, He indeed has more mercy than your society who forgives no one. And your society is one of the better ones?
None of those examples corresponds to your claim that children are punished for the crimes of their parents. The first is an accident, not a punishment. If parents die and leave a child no crime has been committed. Poverty isn’t a crime. Circumcision isn’t a crime. If parents go to prison, society will try to provided care for that child not punish them.

 I would also question what you think constitutes as being “society’s punishment.” Here in the UK the accepted definition would probably be   "punishment carried out for wrongdoing by a legal authority."

#46
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@Elliott
And if you are a murderer, believing in God doesn’t changethe fact that you are a murderer.
Yes, but thats irrelevant to your claim "I dont believe in God, therefore I am not a murderer".


None of those examples corresponds to your claim that childrenare punished for the crimes of their parents.
Well, let us hear you.


The first is an accident, not a punishment.
No. Its a punishment which results in death. An accident would be something out of your control, not something that you produced knowing the end result. Therefore, when your society produces a system that punishes uncared children with death, your society carries responsibility. Further, when your society doesnt punish uncaring parents, that too contributes to death. Usually, people want to deny responsibility for their actions in order to continue doing evil. Therefore, I am not surprised when you deny that your society is responsible for the things it intentionally caused. Denying reality is usually necessary when faced with truth.


 If parents die and leave a child no crime has been committed.
Unless the death is suicide. Death by itself is not a crime or an intentional action. Suicide is. I believe we are talking about intentional actions here.


Poverty isn’t a crime.
So why does your society punish children who have poor parents? If parent's actions caused them to be poor, why are children put to difficulties for the actions of their parents?


Circumcision isn’t a crime
It is by God's law. Your society punishes children with circumcision if their parents agree.


If parents go to prison, society will try to provided care for that child not punish them.
Therefore, when a child lives in one of government's horrible caring facilities and gets drugged there, that is same as child who has parents and who is not drugged? Usually, when we have two opposites, we consider one better than the other. The worse option is a punishment done to the child due to actions of his parents.


The accepted definition would probably be punishment carried out for wrong doing by a legal authority
No. The definition of punishment cannot include the word punishment. Otherwise, we dont need definitions at all. We can just say: logic is logic, punishment is punishment, crime is crime...

Of course, you would prefer to find a definition that doesnt include "causing death, pain, mutilation, disadvantage and drugging". However, if "causing these things to a child for the crimes of his parents" is not punishment, then surely nothing is punishment.

Therefore, when you cause "death, pain, mutilation, disadvantage and drugging" to the child for the actions of his parents, you have no right to complain when God punishes disobedient children for the sins of their parents and rewards the good children for their faith.
#47
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@FLRW
The problem I have with Jesus is if he were alive today and a member of DA he would probably have a profile pic of him holding an AR-15 rifle.

You aren't as far off the mark as some may think with that comment, FLRW.  All of his disciples  were from the bandit country ; Galilee. 
#48
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@PREZ-HILTON
Brother D. Wrote: am always forgiven upon them. Although, the main reason I chose the Christian religion is the biblical fact that there will be NO WOMEN in heaven, 
PREZ-HILTON wrote: I didn't know about the no women thing. 
I believe this maybe to do with the 144,000 who will be saved . These are those who did not defile themselves with women, because they remained celibate.  I am too bone idle to search for it.

That will be 12000 from each of the tribes of Israel. A  proper men's club by the sound of it.
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#49
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@Stephen
Tim laheye and Jerry b Jenkins books have informed my knowledge of biblical prophecy. They seem to think the 144k are just the Jews who find Jesus after the rapture
#50
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@PREZ-HILTON
They seem to think the 144k are just the Jews who find Jesus after the rapture.

It's part of Revelation.  And says nothing about Christians from my memory. Jesus was a Jew after all. And ONLY came to save his own. Mat15: 24
"“I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”
#51
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@Best.Korea
Yes, but thats irrelevant to your claim"I dont believe in God, therefore I am not a murderer".
I never made such a claim.

Your car accident example. If a car hits a child it is an accident unless the driver intended to hit that child then it would be murder, what it isn’t is a punishment inflicted on that child by society and neither are the rest of your examples.

Therefore, when a child lives in one ofgovernment's horrible caring facilities and gets drugged there, that is same aschild who has parents and who is not drugged? Usually, when we have twoopposites, we consider one better than the other. The worse option is apunishment done to the child due to actions of his parents.
Where the hell do you think I live, the UK is reasonably civilised. What the authorities would probably do is place the child in foster care.

No. The definition of punishment cannotinclude the word punishment. Otherwise, we dont need definitions at all. We canjust say: logic is logic, punishment is punishment, crime is crime...
I was defining the type of punishment “society’s punishment,” therefore using the word “punishment” is acceptable.
#52
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@Elliott
Which pegan concept?
#53
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@hey-yo
Which pegan concept?
The sacrificial god occurs in many pagan religions, this link covers the subject quite well:
#54
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@FLRW
How? Jesus would be considered a pacafist because he said "love your enemy" (paraphrase) along with an over all message to sustain peace between individuals and groups. 
#55
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@Elliott
I never made such a claim.
Except that time when you said you cannot disobey God (commit murder, adultery...) because you dont believe in God.
Your disbelief in God is irrelevant to your ability to do bad things, commit murder, adultery, theft...


Your car accident example. If a car hits a child it is an accident unless the driver intended to hit that child
No. Every time you do action intentionally that you know will result in death, that is not an accident. Therefore, when you break a speed limit, which your society regularly does, you are intentionally doing something that results in death. When you choose to drive a car, you are intentionally doing that which results in death. Therefore, the fault is at you and your society.


what it isn’t is a punishment inflicted on that child
Denying the truth doesnt help you. If you think that intentionally killing a child as a result of parent's actions is not bad, then you might be a bit crazy. Which is nothing to be ashamed of. Most of your society is that way.


What the authorities would probably do is place the child in foster care.
Have you heard about drugs they give to children in foster care? Or does that not happen in UK?


I was defining the type of punishment “society’s punishment,” therefore using the word “punishment” is acceptable.
It is interesting how you need to use a made up circular definition to define two words as one: "society's punishment", in order to exclude "death, pain, mutilation, disadvantage and drugging" intentionally done to children in your society by your society as a result of their parent's actions.

Since your society does these things to children and does it intentionally as a result of their parent's actions(which is the definition of punishment), the only way for you to get away from this truth was to deny reality by using two different definitions of punishment: one when used by God, the other when used by your society.

Since your society obviously punishes children for the crimes of their parents, my point is proven correct. Atheists are deluded, and they blame God for doing that which they themselves do at much worse rate.

Now try to find difference between "intentionally causing death, pain, mutilation, disadvantage and drugging to children" and "punishing children" to try and make the first one sound less bad.
#56
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@Best.Korea
Except that time when you said you cannot disobey God (commit murder, adultery...) because you dont believe in God.
Your disbelief in God is irrelevant to your ability to do bad things, commit murder, adultery, theft...
My desire not to commit murder has nothing to do with God as I don’t believe in him.

It is interesting how you need to use a made up circular definition to define two words as one: "society's punishment", in order to exclude "death, pain, mutilation, disadvantage and drugging" intentionally done to children in your society by your society as a result of their parent's actions.
It was you who initially used the word "society" in relation to punishment.

You seem to think that any sort of harm or suffering is punishment. Let me try and clarify as to what is the common definition of punishment.

From the Oxford Reference Dictionary ...
Punishment: The deliberate infliction of harm, by authorized agents, on a person, in response to a breach of rules by which, it is claimed, the person is governed, and for which he or she is held responsible.
#57
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@Elliott
My desire not to commit murder has nothing to do with God as I don’t believe in him.
Yes, which is the opposite of your previous claim "I dont believe in God, therefore I am not a murderer".
It was already explained to you that disobeying God's commands and committing murder is possible even when you dont believe in God.


It was you who initially used the word "society" in relation to punishment.
Using the two words together doesnt mean I use different definition for them that is different from their actual definition.


Punishment: The deliberate infliction of harm, by authorized agents, on a person, in response to a breach of rules by which, it is claimed, the person is governed, and for which he or she is held responsible.
Yes, finally, a definition!
So how does your society, who deliberately inflicts harm on children by authorized agents in response to a breach of rules done by their parents, by which they and their parents are governed and held responsible,
Is different from God who deliberately inflicts harm on children if they and their parents are sinners, in order to create more good?

Begin with excuses to try to find a difference!

The difference is obvious. God punishes children for their sins and to increase the good. Your society punishes children at random: aborts them, kills them, mutilates them... Your society doesnt increase the good. How could it? Its not like your society is superior to God in knowledge, nor does your society know if killing, mutilating, drugging, causing pain and placing children at disadvantage has benefits for society.

Plus, the God has given clear instructions to your society to make it better. I believe one of them was not to circumcise. The other was not to kill. But your society still kills children with abortions, cars, drugs, foster care... Do you still consider your society superior to God, despite that results clearly show that when you distance yourself from God, you end up having more bad things? Maybe you can blame the God for being an atheist, despite that Bible says how God did not create an atheist? Atheist was created by the evil one.
#58
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@Best.Korea
Yes, which is the opposite of your previous claim "I dont believe in God, therefore I am not a murderer".
I have never said "I don’t believe in God, therefore I am not a murderer" so stop making things up.

So how does your society, who deliberatelyinflicts harm on children by authorized agents in response to a breach of rulesdone by their parents, by which they and their parents are governed and heldresponsible,Is different from God who deliberatelyinflicts harm on children if they and their parents are sinners, in order tocreate more good? Begin with excuses to try to find a difference! The difference is obvious. God punisheschildren for their sins and to increase the good. Your society punisheschildren at random: aborts them, kills them, mutilates them... Your societydoesnt increase the good. How could it? Its not like your society is superiorto God in knowledge, nor does your society know if killing, mutilating,drugging, causing pain and placing children at disadvantage has benefits forsociety.
You seem to be confusing the 21st century UK with Nazi Germany, I’m afraid I can’t help you with that one.
#59
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@hey-yo

Well, times change, people change.  On January 6th, when Trump's supporters gathered in Washington to protest the election results, one person brought along a placard depicting Jesus wearing a MAGA hat.
#60
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@Elliott
You seem to be confusing the 21st century UK with Nazi Germany, I’m afraid I can’t help you with that one.
Do you deny that killings, abortions, drugging of children and circumcisions take place in your country? I can easily provide you with the evidence of the opposite. The abortions are the ones that are really undeniable, but others are hard to deny too.