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@FLRW
Well, times change, people change. [....................................] one person brought along a placard depicting Jesus wearing a MAGA hat.
Yes Jesus came to his senses.
Make Atheist Great Again?
The problem I have with Jesus
Posts
Total:
200
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@PREZ-HILTON
Jesus is a real person, but his intent and purpose in life was purely factionalized.
jesus' death was a self sacrifice. our nature human nature is to die. jesus' nature as a human was to die, but as a divine being to rise and live eternally. he had a right to self defense. even jesus during the ordeal said he had the power to call down legions of angels to save him, but he chose not to. he chose not to utilize his right to self defense, and in so doing he died, and when he rose, he defeated both sin and death. love conquered death. God wouldn't let jesus die. christians are adopted brothers and sisters of christ.... and we're all united by the power of love through Jesus' death. with Jesus we die, with him we will rise from the dead.
this narrative isn't the way it has to be... it's just the way it is, the way God made it to be designed.
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@PREZ-HILTON
see my last post.
things are the way they are. that's just the way it is. there's a lot of room to complain but it's not our place to say it's wrong. we might speculate conventional wisdom is correct, but eventually you just have to take things on faith.
Romans 9:20 "Therefore, who are you, oh son of man, that you give a rebuttal to God? Does the thing formed say to the one who formed it, “Why have you made me this way?”
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@n8nrgim
None of that answers my OP or is a good response to it. I was wondering mostly why a person would want forgiveness. If you rob a mother of her rent money, is it better you are forgiven or that you pay for your crime and offer restitution?
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@FLRW
Well, times change, people change. On January 6th, when Trump's supporters gathered in Washington to protest the election results, one person brought along a placard depicting Jesus wearing a MAGA hat.
Yeah. That is a person making propaganda. An opinioned piece of art (I use that loosely) about Jesus. Doesnt mean Jesus would be republican or an NRA member.
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@PREZ-HILTON
None of that answers my OP or is a good response to it. I was wondering mostly why a person would want forgiveness. If you rob a mother of her rent money, is it better you are forgiven or that you pay for your crime and offer restitution?
Both. Restitution is good right. I think this highlights a part that is being missed in o.p... what it means to repent. And what des forgiveness do?
Now I understand this may look different among different sects. But consider what you just put up. Which is better, forgiveness or restitution. What ever that may look like.
Lets say restitution means you pay the money back. Does this really mean anything? I can just steal the money again or some other item from the same person. So what good does restitution do? None.
To repent is to move away from stealing. But what good is it to repent? We are just making the crime void right? Like it never happened. But would the woman trust me now? She wasnt just a woman, she's Jenna! I knew her since 3rd grade. We have been friends for so long I cant even remember how we met. I did a stupid thing and now our relationship is hurt.
Even if Jenna didnt know me, I find it hard for her to have any kind of relationship with me. So how does that relationship get mended? Forgiveness.
Forgiveness starts with her and has to be noncondentional becasause its not real if it is dependent on conditions. She would give it like a gift.
Any questions so far at this point?
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@Elliott
Oh ok. Thanks
Side question. Has anyone made E.T. references with you? EL-LI-eTT.
Do you like resses pieces?
Anyways. Quick glance. I see similarities and differences in some of those other instances. Hm. Interesting.
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@n8nrgim
n8nrgim wrote: things are the way they are. that's just the way it is. there's a lot of room to complain but it's not our place to say it's wrong. we might speculate conventional wisdom is correct, but eventually you just have to take things on faith.Romans 9:20 "Therefore, who are you, oh son of man, that you give a rebuttal to God? Does the thing formed say to the one who formed it, “Why have you made me this way?”
n8nrgim also wrote:
I am, in fact, an Athiest.
n8nrgim wrote: Jesus during the ordeal said he had the power to call down legions of angels to save him, but he chose not to.
n8nrgim also wrote:
I am, in fact, an Athiest.
n8nrgim wrote: and in so doing he [god Jesus} died, and when he rose, he defeated both sin and death. love conquered death. God wouldn't let jesus die. christians are adopted brothers and sisters of christ...
n8nrgim also wrote:
I am, in fact, an Athiest.
Really! 😁
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@PREZ-HILTON
I can get on board with believing in Jesus, with thinking he was raised from the dead.
Really. Have you ever wondered why he needed to be raised from the dead? Or why he died in the first place?
Why would I want to be forgiven?
Forgiveness is about reconciliation. Why would anyone not want to be reconciled to God? Why would anyone want to be an enemy of God?
1. It's fucked up that he would be sacrificed for my sins. The guy was perfect, he doesn't deserve that. Literally slaughtering an innocent person. I don't want that on my conscience and so I must reject forgiveness.
Yes and no. Don't forget it was Jesus' decision to die. Did he deserve it? No, he was innocent. Yet he did for those who trust in him. He did so because it was just for someone to pay for the sin. And because he desired to reconcile us with him. Besides he knew he was going to rise again. If he didn't die, he wouldn't have risen again. I don't feel guilty about Jesus dying for my sins. It was part of his eternal plan.
2. Why would I want forgiveness? Why would I want to get away with stuff? I would much prefer to pay for my sins. I rather just take some sort of punishment than allowing some filthy Jew to die for me, particularly one who is not only innocent but the most innocent a person ever has been.
Yeah, this is respectfully a bit of a red herring. No one in this life ever pays for every wrong they do in this life. Everyone gets away with many offences every day. So respectfully, your argument that you want to take responsibility for your life is a little weak. Every time you speed in your car, do you run down to the police station and confess your speeding and ask for a fine? Unlikely. Every time you look at a bloke or a girl and think about cheating on your spouse, do you go to your spouse and say- "gee I have been having naughty thoughts, you'd better divorce me or give me the flick.". Do you really?
Forgiveness is not about getting away with stuff. What a nonsense argument. When my child hits his sister, he has to admit his offence and ask for forgiveness. Once she has forgiven him, he still gets a punishment. Forgiveness DOES NOT mean getting away with stuff.
What is with some people's urge to receive forgiveness rather than actually pay for their crimes?
I think people who urge people to this end don't understand forgiveness, reconciliation or the gospel. The bible doesn't teach that forgiveness means you don't get punished,
I have done wrong things. I deserve the consequences of those things and in fact so do you.
This is true. Yet, there are many wrongs we do, that we will never get the correct consequences for in this life. And if we can get away with them, we will.
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@TWS1405_2
Jesus is a real person, but his intent and purpose in life was purely factionalized.
Indeed. His claim is that he had only came to unite and save the lost people of IS-RA-EL, which were made up of the 12 tribes and other Jewish factions and sects. His mission was to rid IS -RA-El of Roman occupation in a uprising. This his why his first 12 disciples came from the rebel country: Galilee. That also happened to be the same location where the fire brand preacher John the Baptist came from.
Both were cut down before they got seriously out of hand. If the bible is to be believed.
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@hey-yo
Side question. Has anyone made E.T. references with you? EL-LI-eTT.Do you like resses pieces?Anyways. Quick glance. I see similarities and differences in some of those other instances. Hm. Interesting.
No one has made any connection with E.T.
I had to look up Reese’s Pieces; I don’t think they are available in the UK. I probably wouldn’t like them, I’m not keen of peanut butter and I see they are manufactured by Hershey. I tried a Hershey bar once, it was one of the most revolting things I have ever eaten, after one mouthful I had to spit it out, it tasted just like vomit.
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@hey-yo
To repent is to move away from stealing. But what good is it to repent? We are just making the crime void right? Like it never happened. But would the woman trust me now? She wasnt just a woman, she's Jenna! I knew her since 3rd grade. We have been friends for so long I cant even remember how we met. I did a stupid thing and now our relationship is hurt.
So why does Jesus offer forgiveness without repentance?
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@Best.Korea
Do you deny that killings, abortions, drugging of children and circumcisions take place in your country? I can easily provide you with the evidence of the opposite. The abortions are the ones that are really undeniable, but others are hard to deny too.
Please don’t bother, your intention to lead this into yet another antiabortion rant was predictable and as I said previously “I’m not playing.”
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@Elliott
Please don’t bother, your intention to lead this into yet another antiabortion rant was predictable and as I said previously “I’m not playing.”
Yeah, if only abortions didnt exist.
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@Tradesecret
Really. Have you ever wondered why he needed to be raised from the dead? Or why he died in the first place?
I think we already covered why he died in this thread. The raising from the dead I guess I can see some reasons for that as well.
Forgiveness is about reconciliation. Why would anyone not want to be reconciled to God? Why would anyone want to be an enemy of God?
I certainly would rather pay for my own crimes than have an innocent person do it, to reconsider with God.
I don't feel guilty about Jesus dying for my sins
That's pretty fucked up that you don't care about an innocent man being tortured and killed so brutally especially knowing it was because of your sins.
Every time you look at a bloke or a girl and think about cheating on your spouse, do you go to your spouse and say- "gee I have been having naughty thoughts, you'd better divorce me or give me the flick.". Do you really?
I think you need to separate actions that harm nobody like looking at a strange woman's ass or speeding when it doesn't result in injury from crimes where damage was done. Such as the speeding leading to an accident that murders somebody and your gaze at a woman taking you down a path of infidelity.
With the speeding and gazing you can fix those things by changing your habits. How do you fix the trust with your wife when you cheat? Is it by saying "welp Jesus died for my sins honey so stop distrusting me" or how do you return the dead child do you say to her parents "Jesus forgives me, there is no need for me to do anything to make you whole, sucks to be you"
. When my child hits his sister, he has to admit his offence and ask for forgiveness. Once she has forgiven him, he still gets a punishment. Forgiveness DOES NOT mean getting away with stuff.
Well it looks like you are forcing your daughter to forgive here. That's not your place. Your place is to punish your son not to force her to forgive him.
Besides that, if his sin of hitting her has been cleansed away, it removes the entire point of you punishing him. His sin has been erased by the forgiveness. Why are you making him pay for an erased crime that never happened?
I think people who urge people to this end don't understand forgiveness, reconciliation or the gospel. The bible doesn't teach that forgiveness means you don't get punished,
Perhaps not, and you are part of the reason for that due to your shitty explanation. Please point me to the verse in the new testament that talks about punishment and forgiveness going hand in hand. Or give me a anything from the bible to support what you are saying. Because right now you are only giving me your thoughts and not even bringing the words of God into this conversation. Sadly brother Thomas has brought more of God's word into this conversation than you.
This is true. Yet, there are many wrongs we do, that we will never get the correct consequences for in this life. And if we can get away with them, we will
Speak for yourself . I am seeking to offset some of the evil I have done.
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@PREZ-HILTON
Sacrificing the innocent and pure is an evolution of child sacrifice ideology.
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@PREZ-HILTON
PREZ-HILTON wrote: It's fucked up that he would be sacrificed for my sins. The guy was perfect, he doesn't deserve that. Literally slaughtering an innocent person. I don't want that on my conscience and so I must reject forgiveness.Tradesecret wrote: Don't forget it was Jesus' decision to die.
So Jesus wasn't sent to die by god then? 1 John 4:9 - Luke 9:48 - Luke 10:16 -John 5:23
@Steven
"Don't forget it was Jesus' decision to die.""So Jesus wasn't sent to die by god then?"
God wanted to make his plan happen. Jesus, the Son of God, agreed to obey God in order to make God's plan happen.
If Jesus refused to obey God, then Jesus would save himself from pain but God's plan wouldnt be realized and Christianity would never exist as a religion with billions of followers.
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@PREZ-HILTON
you could switch to a theology similar to catholics, or you could look at God as unconditional love, or you could consider the idea of sancitification. catholics believe our sins must be made up for as humans and anything that isn't made up for must be purged in purgatory. protestants believe we are atoned by jesus, but even they believe in sancification.... which is like catholics idea of atonement except protestants dont think that purging process is what saves us. also, you could look at God as unconditional love and forgiveness, but just remember that that doesn't mean that there are no consequences to our actions. if we are forgiven unconditionally, you are quibbling over God being too generous... and if you want consequences, just focus on the natural consequences to the things you do, or look at sancification.
my point in describing the atonment where Jesus defeated death, is also to point out that we as humans cannot defeat death. only Jesus can as a perfect embodiment of love. we cannot be forgiven without a perfect sacrifice, because we are mere sinful creatures and our petition isnt perfect without Jesus.
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@n8nrgim
I would love to learn more about catholic theology. It seems to be the only sect of Christianity that doesn't ask you to shut your brain off.
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@PREZ-HILTON
catholics and protestants both believe in justification and sanctification. justification is how we become right by God, and in western theology being right with him is a legal relationship. (eastern christians dont believe we have a legal relationship with God, which is more how i view it, but the west have good arguments) santification is how we increase in holiness. catholics believe that when we do good things and sanctify ourselves, it adds to our justification. what we lack in justification, Jesus makes up for in his atonement. and they believe purgatory is where we deal with purging ourselves with the stains of our sins and further increase our justification. protestants believe that sanctification doesn't add to our justification... they believe Jesus' atonement covers our justification completely. to stress, it's important to tie the concepts of justification and atonement together. different ideas thologically, but related. it's also important to tie the classic 'faith saves' 'faith plus works saves' debate to justification and sanctification.
the main reason i am not catholic is because of their idea of infallibility, but i would consider being a catholic who doesn't believe that specific doctrine. it's just easier for me to identify as non denominational.
i know a ton about christian theology and the bible, and catholic theology, cause i grew up catholic. if you have any questions, i know i can point you in the right direction for things to consider.
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@TWS1405_2
Jesus is a real person, but his intent and purpose in life was purely factionalized.
Do you mean fictionalized?
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@n8nrgim
@PREZ-HILTON
n8nrgim wrote: the main reason i am not catholic is because of their idea of infallibility.
Well you have changed your tune , haven't you, n8nrgim?
It was only a matter of hours ago that you were a Catholic springing to the defence of a Transsexual Pastor; an "abomination" to god Jesus. . Where we argued in the early hours (uk time)
starting here>>
You was a full blown catholic then.
Screen shot 1 taken just last night. Put this in you search engine.
chrome-extension://ebkihbjamcljmddijijlfachpgphldll/screenshot.html?imageId=11
And by some miraculous conversion, you have deleted all of your Personal Information and are claiming to be an atheist.
n8nrgim also wrote:
Screen shot 2 taken just hours later. Put this in your search engine.
chrome-extension://ebkihbjamcljmddijijlfachpgphldll/screenshot.html?imageId=12
Just can't help yourselves you religious folk. Hypocrites and liars, the lot of you.😂
"The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. 2 Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron".1 Timothy 4:1-2
n8nrgim wrote:
@PREZ-HILTON : i know a ton about christian theology and the bible, and catholic theology, cause i grew up catholic. if you have any questions, i know i can point you in the right direction for things to consider.
Such as? How to pretend to be an atheist because you have been made to look absolutely bible stupid . Or - how can one can attempt to defend the indefensible by going against all the rules and laws of god!?....... and blatantly being a liar and deceitful?
“Why do you call me, ‘Lord, and do not do what I say"? Luke 6:46
I once heard from Christians that Jesus' sacrifice was meant to stop the jewish ritual of animal sacrifice that aims to forgive one's sins. So if you want to be forgiven you don't need to kill a noble animal anymore because Jesus already did the job for you.
It makes sense to me. But I wish Jesus had done his sacrifice in Maya civilization, these fucking savage people used to sacrifice humans.
eastern christians believe in theosis... it's a process of salvation, increasing in holiness. they dont use justification or sanctification as words, given those are tied to the legal concepts of atonement, but theosis is similar idea.
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@Stephen
i think you might be confusing me with orogami.
Screen shot 2 taken just hours later. Put this in your search engineScreen shot 1 taken just last night. Put this in you search engine.
Is this some atheist version of inquisition? I am actually impressed by your dedication to do something like this. Its almost like you are some kind of a detective here.