The problem I have with Jesus

Author: PREZ-HILTON
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#181
ludofl3x
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@DavidAZ
Can you find your passage that God created evil for his pleasure?
Given any thought to that "problem of evil" we talked about? I only ask because this question reminded me of it. That doesn't address the 'why' though. I guess I would ask do you think god created evil?
#182
Stephen
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@ludofl3x
@DavidAZ
DavidAZ wrote: Can you find your passage that God created evil for his pleasure?
ludofl3x wrote: Given any thought to that "problem of evil" we talked about? I only ask because this question reminded me of it. That doesn't address the 'why' though. I guess I would ask do you think god created evil?
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things. Isaiah 45:7


That doesn't address the 'why' though.


The bible doesn't say.

As for an answer to this question; my shot in the dark would be to make us totally dependent on him, (so much for "free will").
One has to look at the "lords" prayer and the line;    "do not lead us into temptation but deliver us from evil".  

9 Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
10 Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
11 Give us this day our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
Matthew 6:9-13


But then  this raises another problematic question, doesn't it?




#183
DavidAZ
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@Stephen
@ludofl3x
Given any thought to that "problem of evil" we talked about? I only ask because this question reminded me of it. That doesn't address the 'why' though. I guess I would ask do you think god created evil?
My view has always been that God created evil, per the passage that Stephen gave, and the reason he did it was to give us a choice.  Choose good or choose evil.  If there was only a infinite good influence, then would a life with God not be all that hard to acquire, assuming that God wants someone to freely choose him.  If God created all things, then he can create evil too. 

My theory is that Satan was made and was not a rebellious angel.  There is actually no passage in the Bible that states that Lucifer turned into Satan.  A lot of people will quote Isaiah 14 in regards to this but it is referring to the King of Babylon, not Satan. 

As for the why, I wish I knew.  I have taken a lot of thought from our conversations and I want to know what is behind all of this living.  The only thing I can think of is that God is higher than me and until he gives me enlightenment, I must do with what I have now.

But then  this raises another problematic question, doesn't it?
Please expound Stephen.
#184
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@DavidAZ
My theory is that Satan was made and was not a rebellious angel.  There is actually no passage in the Bible that states that Lucifer turned into Satan.  A lot of people will quote Isaiah 14 in regards to this but it is referring to the King of Babylon, not Satan. 
I think a lot of our modern interpretations of hell and Satan are actually from literature outside the bible, like Dante's Inferno and MIlton's Paradise Lost. 

My view has always been that God created evil, per the passage that Stephen gave, and the reason he did it was to give us a choice.  Choose good or choose evil.  
Fair enough. But if you can't speculate on why he chose to provide these options, how can you rule out that "for his pleasure" is one option? 
#185
DavidAZ
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@ludofl3x
I think a lot of our modern interpretations of hell and Satan are actually from literature outside the bible, like Dante's Inferno and MIlton's Paradise Lost.
Very true.  If one digs into the history and old writings, you will find that the Catholic church really defined a lot of terms that everybody unknowingly think is very "Christian".  Unfortunately, the catholic church pulled a ton of pagan rituals into it's church and then dominated the Christian world by getting into politics with Constantine the Great of Rome.  So most historical church documents only show one side of the story and all protestant sects will take on the Catholic church's dogma, more or less.

Fair enough. But if you can't speculate on why he chose to provide these options, how can you rule out that "for his pleasure" is one option? 
Again, true, but I would conclude that since God hates sin, then the idea of evil was not created for his pleasure but rather for his plan to work.   Kinda like the car needs parts to make it go down the road.  The goal is to get down the road, not create parts.  It's the sum of the parts, not the parts alone.

In reference of "for his pleasure", I mean that he enjoys the thought of evil of the act of evil.

 I suppose you can go down a windy road to say that if there was no evil to choose from then there couldn't be a choice between good and evil, therefore evil had to exist in order for people to choose him, and people choosing him makes him happy, so all in all, evil makes him happy.  BUT that's not what I am saying by pleasure.
#186
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@DavidAZ
 I suppose you can go down a windy road to say that if there was no evil to choose from then there couldn't be a choice between good and evil, therefore evil had to exist in order for people to choose him, and people choosing him makes him happy, so all in all, evil makes him happy.  BUT that's not what I am saying by pleasure.
Understood. I guess I would take some issue with the idea that god feels "happy" about anything, because for that to be the case he'd have to be UNhappy about other things, and that's not really how I understand a "perfect" being to be. It's sort of akin to the idea that God can change his mind: to change one's mind would mean to recognize an error of some sort in judgement. To create evil just to provide the illusion of free will seems weird to me. So in your assessment of the problem of evil (I prefer suffering, but either way), you believe god is responsible for creating evil, is therefore aware of it, and chooses not to stop it, is that fair to say? 

I've got another idea for a topic for you, regarding heaven, because this "did god make evil" thing always brings it up. It's definitely its own topic though. Up for it?
#187
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@ludofl3x
DavidAZ ? wrote: My view has always been that God created evil, per the passage that Stephen gave, and the reason he did it was to give us a choice.  Choose good or choose evil.  
ludofl3x wrote: Fair enough. But if you can't speculate on why he chose to provide these options, how can you rule out that "for his pleasure" is one option? 


 Well lets not forget the wager the "lord" had with Satan (whom he also created). The mental torture that the "Lord" allowed this loyal servant of  loyal servants Job to be put through and all for a bet. So I am sure that it is no great push to assume that the "lord" would also do things for his own pleasure and entertainment.
#188
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@Stephen
Well lets not forget the wager the "lord" had with Satan (whom he also created). The mental torture that the "Lord" allowed this loyal servant of  loyal servants Job to be put through and all for a bet. So I am sure that it is no great push to assume that the "lord" would also do things for his own pleasure and entertainment
Also true.  It does bother me that God would "bet" that Job would stay faithful throughout the whole ordeal.  I cannot rationalize that in my mind.  Almost makes me not want to reach top standing with God just so I won't have my life destroyed and put back together because two battling forces decide to use my life as a wager.

But I wouldn't consider this a "for his pleasure with evil" point.  More like a "I told you so". 

#189
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@ludofl3x
So in your assessment of the problem of evil (I prefer suffering, but either way), you believe god is responsible for creating evil, is therefore aware of it, and chooses not to stop it, is that fair to say? 
Sounds fair, except the chooses not to stop it part.  He chooses not to stop it in the moment of the act of evil.  There is supposed to be a time that all evil will be put away, but that doesn't necessarily help the victim right now.

I've got another idea for a topic for you, regarding heaven, because this "did god make evil" thing always brings it up. It's definitely its own topic though. Up for it?
For sure!  You always make me think.

#190
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@DavidAZ
Stephen wrote: Well lets not forget the wager the "lord" had with Satan (whom he also created). The mental torture that the "Lord" allowed this loyal servant of  loyal servants Job to be put through and all for a bet. So I am sure that it is no great push to assume that the "lord" would also do things for his own pleasure and entertainment
DavidAZ ? wrote: Also true.  It does bother me that God would "bet" that Job would stay faithful throughout the whole ordeal.  I cannot rationalize that in my mind.  Almost makes me not want to reach top standing with God just so I won't have my life destroyed and put back together because two battling forces decide to use my life as a wager.
But I wouldn't consider this a "for his pleasure with evil" point.  More like a "I told you so". 

Well it appears to me that wagering at the cost of lives without batting an eyelid shows to me that the lives of children are literally ten a penny to the "lord" and all so the "lord" could say "I told you so"! ?  Life is cheap to this god, make no mistake about it.

I wonder, did the "lord" take any pleasure in being right?

#191
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@Stephen
Well it appears to me that wagering at the cost of lives without batting an eyelid shows to me that the lives of children are literally ten a penny to the "lord" and all so the "lord" could say "I told you so"! ?  Life is cheap to this god, make no mistake about it.
Maybe, but I am still going to be held liable to my action from him.  If he is to judge me and I think he is "cheap with life", then maybe I should walk a little more careful. 

I wonder, did the "lord" take any pleasure in being right?
Good question.  Probably did. I would.  I know Job was rewarded for his actions though.



#192
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@DavidAZ
I know Job was rewarded for his actions though.

 How was he rewarded?  God replaced his children and all his live stock. OH  WELL,  THAT'S OK THEN.  THAT WAS VERY GENEROUSE OF HIM WASN'T IT.!?? 
This is exactly what I mean when I say life is cheap to your god.  So cheap that he would go to the extremes of murdering ten children to prove a point.

Your mind is as sick as your gods.

  
#193
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@Stephen
You would not consider a double of such things as a reward?

I agree that losing my children cannot be replaced, but I suppose God has their souls in his hands.

Your mind is as sick as your gods.
Well, when you get the chance to run the universe, you can tell us why you did such things.  I guarantee your mid is much much sicker than the mind of God and that I would take my chances at the mercy of God then the mercy of one who constantly refuses to see the love of God.  You are constantly bringing up that God is evil and you refuse to see anything other.  You are bitter and are blinded by it.

If you were Job, then I suppose you could have reason to shake a fist at God, but since you are not, then I suggest you do what is required and leave the dicey stuff to God.

Why are you so bitter Stephen?  I've said this before, that you sound like an angry teenager.  What happened that you are disgusted with God?
#194
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@DavidAZ
Rev 4;11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

Connect the dots.

Is Satan divine for initiating knowledge of reproduction in us? 

This poorly titled clip gives some of the learned logic of Eden as a coming-of-age yarn.   

The only fault I see is his thinking Satan to be male when she is obviously female for both reality and elsewhere. 

Check the Exsultet hymn to confirm this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WpvmbBYtOAk 

Satan, like Jesus, has been named as a bringer of light in the bible. 
Should we continue with biblical logic and name Satan divine? 
Remembering the duality always shown in scriptures, ----- Is Satan the Yin to Jesus as Yang?
I know God knows to venerate life, and knows that Satan is the key that opens that door.
I will answer for her in a way that will have you name her divine and do as scriptures bid you do. 
Recognize the Jewish concept of Original Virtue as coming out of Eden.  
Recognize the twist in language and interpretations, as Christians sing that sin is a happy fault and necessary to God and nature.  Opposite word, original sin, and original virtue, saying the same thing. 
All initiated by the bringer of light, Satan. 

Regards
DL
#195
DavidAZ
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@GnosticChristianBishop
Rev 4;11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

Connect the dots.
This is some extreme stretching for connecting the dots. To say that God takes pleasure in the evil of men by this scripture is pretty ludicrous.  I'm afraid how your "connect-the-dots" pictures turn out.

The rest of your post is ignorant.  The Catholics do not create the dogma of the Christiin faith.  The Bible does, so for you to paste a line of the catholic hymns is moot.

I can barely tolerate Stephen's posts but at least his are made in knowledge of the Bible and Christianity as a whole.  I am trying to sharpen my mind but with you it seems I am whetting my sword with butter.  

#196
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@DavidAZ
I can barely tolerate Stephen's posts 


 No one is forcing you or compelling believe never mind  to read and "tolerate" my posts, Reverend. 


 I am trying to sharpen my mind.

Well you need a good wet stone to do that. Something you will never possess.

#197
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@Stephen
C'mon.  You know you are hard to debate with.  You are stubborn and send angry posts.  Even your response is riddled with insults.

But I do appreciate your ability to think.
#198
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@DavidAZ
But I do appreciate your ability to think.

And it is a shame that you will never be able to give me cause or reason to return the compliment.
#199
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@Stephen
And it is a shame that you will never be able to give me cause or reason to return the compliment.
LOL! Brutal.

#200
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@Stephen


 "Oh, snap!"