How to read the Bible - Guide for beginners

Author: Best.Korea

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@Melcharaz
you know i am right about the evil of cursing God, you see the addictions present in your life.
what if i am right about the benefits?
You don't know shit about my life, partner. I don't have addictions, and I'm for the most part pretty content, I feel pretty lucky. You're definitely wrong about the evil of cursing god, people do it all day long and nothing happens that isn't already happening. I'm pretty sure whatever you think the benefits are, I can get them just fine on my own. 
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@ludofl3x
you dont have to lie to me. im not here to condemn you, i simply offer another path. Its entirely up to you what you choose, but some burdens never get easier, you just accept them because you are what you are, and you either cant change or are at a point you dont want to.
lonliness grows.
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the people who do curse God all day long are in alot of pain, the pain is in the heart, they make an atmosphere for themselves one of bitterness and avoidance of certain things. Generally it takes more for them to feel actual joy instead of pleasure or even giddiness.
When people curse God, its easy as breathing to curse others. soon they get to a point where they would actually feel happy if a person they hated died.
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@Melcharaz
Got it, thanks all the same. 
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addictions is more than just drugs btw. it can be hours spent gambling, watching tv, whatever you spend alot of time on doing that requires more and more time to feel good or as good as before.
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@Stephen
I agree that we have butchered this thread to death.  I am also done trying to run around your logic and reasoning with this.  I have gained no insight on anything about this except that you accuse me of multiple moving the goal post and back paddling, which you still would not clarify.  You wouldn't expound on your point of why fearing the LORD was such a big deal in your eyes.  If you expect me to engage in more threads with you according to the banter we had above, then forget it.  I wanted to have a normal conversation about biblical stuff and see your point of view but all I got was a pile of word games, accusations, butt hurt comments and a consistent rabble on you spouting that God is wicked.

I think you are a sharp guy and you definitely have the ability to think outside the box.  I do appreciate your time with me on this. I'm going to use my time with something else.
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@ludofl3x
@hey-yo wrote: God choose to humble Himself to the lowest point a human could experience. To demonstrate His love. 
ludofl3x wrote: This is pretty confusing too, given that there were literally no stakes for the main character at all. It's not really humbling yourself if it's just pure theater. 

Indeed , especially when we were made in his image, "the human experience" -one would have thought, would be at least second nature to him.




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@ludofl3x
I am a bit confused. You are saying things I have not heard before.  

Torture porn usually refers to someone that enjoys or seeks pleasure in torture. I do not see that present. 

What is "long weekend combo" s

What do you think the whole thing (death, descent, resurrection) is supposed to signify? 

Why or how are things done to "exactly what he planned" for them to do?" 

What do you refer to as punish generations? 


How was things fucked up? 



Best.Korea
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soon they get to a point where they would actually feel happy if a person they hated died
I hated some people in my life, but later I realized its better to try to fix them rather than wish them death.
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@hey-yo
Torture porn usually refers to someone that enjoys or seeks pleasure in torture. I do not see that present. 

What is "long weekend combo" s

What do you think the whole thing (death, descent, resurrection) is supposed to signify? 

I'm not sure how else to explain the character's insistence that the only solution possible, or even the BEST solution of all possible solutions, was to pretend to be a human so that he could be tortured and killed. Given that god had literally every other option available to fix this issue, the choice of option necessarily tells us something about the character, right? The "long weekend" i refer to is this weird period between the crucifixion and resurrection where literally nothing at all is at stake for god. He's not going to succumb to death or whatever it is that is supposed to be going on at this time, right? So it seems like it's a three day trip to someplace, with no real agenda and no stakes or risk to himself. 

What do you think the whole thing (death, descent, resurrection) is supposed to signify? 
No idea. In spite of so many years of going to church and all that, I have no idea why it signifies anything at all, at least anything like has been taught. Feel free to explain it, but substantiating it or making a compelling case is pretty difficult. 

Why or how are things done to "exactly what he planned" for them to do?" 
Can people act in ways that are not according to god's plan? I should ask this more often, because every Christian seems to have a different answer and explanation of how it works (see Malcharaz and his problem explaining free will in earlier posts, eventually he just drops it entirely as too vexing). If the answer is no, they cannot act outside of god's plan because that makes god less than all knowing, less than all powerful and imperfect, then it follows necessarily that all of mankind's ills, all the things people do to piss off god so much that all this has to happen in the first place, are because that is exactly how god wanted it to go. If you lack free will this way, then you also lack agency, and that means you lack accountability. You can't get mad at a computer program for doing what you program it to do. Does that help?

What do you refer to as punish generations? 
What's the punishment for eating from the tree, the whole punishment? It doesn't stop at being evicted, right?
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@DavidAZ
You wouldn't expound on your point of why fearing the LORD was such a big deal in your eyes.

So again you are trying to throw this on me.  When is all I did was point out to you what the BIBLE states was the reason for the pointless test; which was fear. 
It was all your own comments that made this conversation circular from there on in.  My initial point started with Abraham not being able to work out that gods promise wouldn't come to fruition had he killed his son.

  I wanted to have a normal conversation about biblical stuff and see your point of view but all I got was a pile of word games,

Again, it was you playing word games. YOU made a big deal over the word "knew". first by saying this;

"I personally believe Abraham didn't think God was going to have him follow thru with it OR if he were to kill his son, God would revive him... He knew Isaac was coming back down with him".#79

I pointed out that if Abraham "knew" then it wasn't a test.

Then you said : "God knows our thoughts and intents, NOT our actions"#102

When I showed you to the contrary>>> " for the Lord searches all hearts, and understands every intent of the thoughts” 1 Chronicles 28:9"<<< You  then changed your comment to this:

"  I believe that God can see every possible future depending on our actions".



Then for reasons know only to you said this : "I do believe that God knows what you are thinking and what you are intending",#108

 So again this means going by your own comments and logic - that Abraham knew  god wasn't going to let him kill his son, and god knew that Abraham knew that he wouldn't let him kill his son. So I reminded you AGAIN that in that case it wasn't a test at all.
But you cannot see your own silly circular reasoning.

You also finally agree that the test was to do with fear and not a test faith. But only after I told you what the BIBLE has to say on the matter and then you started on about fear  in this case meaning "reverence". #108 i.e.  redefining the meaning of words simply to suit your argument, and without any supporting evidence, and when it doesn't mean any such thing. Where is your evidence for such a wild claim? 

And you STILL haven't explained why this test had to happen in the first place at all. When the BIBLE says that GOD knows our thoughts and intentions?
1 Chronicles 28:9  and ""you [ lord] discern my thoughts from afar". Psalms 139: 1-2

And all the above was before we even got onto the mental torture god inflicted on yet another one of his own faithful and righteous servants: JOB
And to excuse your gods behaviour you more or less told us that the TEN children deserved to die and tried to blamed it on Job's children's "wickedness", his servants, his animals and even his fkn house!

Did god ever get around to explaining to Job why this all had to happened to him. I'll answer that for you,  NO, he fkn didn't. 



you spouting that God is wicked.

yes, he is a  wicked. 

If you expect me to engage in more threads with you according to the banter we had above, then forget it.

Please your self.
I don't expect anything.  It is a public forum and members are free to come and go, engage or disengage.  I'm easy.

shall be looking out for your thread  "Other Aspects of God". 

But we both know that you have no intentions of ever starting any thread at all on any  topic concerning god, religion, the bible or Jesus.
 


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@Stephen
Ah!  That is what I was looking for. :)  I appreciate the clarification.  I wanted to see where the confusion was at and I am grateful for your explanation.  I will apologize for not being more specific and sounding general in my posts.  I can absolutely see where you can see that I moved the goal posts and my explanation was not adequate to make any sense.  I will make my points understandable next time.  My fault.

I actually may start a thread just for you to describe your position on God being wicked.  It is a interesting view IMO.
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@Stephen
No I explained it rather well. 
See 
1. Jesus did not refuse himself, nor did God refuse Jesus because Jesus said "let [God] will be Done. 

So no matter how you spin it, God's will was to use Himself as sacrafice for humanaity. Which occured. 

2. If you want to ignore that Jesus is not recieving anything from the angel, that's on you. If you never felt happy or empowered just from seeing someone, then I dont know what exactly to tell you. How am I to explain something that is felt when you have never felt it ? 


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@DavidAZ
That is what I was looking for I appreciate the clarification..................My fault

Then you should have simply asked. And yes it was all your fault. You didn't keep up with the thread and specifically your own contradictory  comments . 


I actually may start a thread just for you to describe your position on God being wicked.  It is a interesting view IMO.

"actually may"!?  I will believe it when I see, it.

But I told you, I don't care, I am easy.
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@Stephen

Have at it please.
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@hey-yo
No I explained it rather well. 
See 
1. Jesus did not refuse himself, nor did God refuse Jesus because Jesus said "let [God] will be Done. 

So no matter how you spin it, God's will was to use Himself as sacrafice for humanaity. Which occurred. 


I haven't had to "spin anything".  You are doing all the spinning one minute you say Jesus is god and then he is not god and then he is god. And you are far too stupid to explain anything "well".

So Jesus isn't god then?


2. If you want to ignore that Jesus is not recieving anything from the angel, that's on you.

 I haven't ignored anything. It was me that pointed out to you that an angle appeared and gave Jesus strength. I asked you why?





 How am I to explain something that is felt when you have never felt it ? 

 You could try explaining it better than your own definition of the word "well".


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@ludofl3x
Oh ok. Wow thats a lot. 
First thing first..I do not speak for anyone or God. As I do not speak for anyone's intent or thought process. I use resources to develop a possible solution or answer. 

Regardless to what anyone says. Christianity is a journey. Our understanding is based on our education and in turn is a journey just the same. We wont get it all right from the start and sometimes we dont start at the same time as everyone else. 

I'm not sure how else to explain the character's insistence that the only solution possible, or even the BEST solution of all possible solutions, was to pretend to be a human so that he could be tortured and killed. Given that god had literally every other option available to fix this issue, the choice of option necessarily tells us something about the character, right? The "long weekend" i refer to is this weird period between the crucifixion and resurrection where literally nothing at all is at stake for god. He's not going to succumb to death or whatever it is that is supposed to be going on at this time, right? So it seems like it's a three day trip to someplace, with no real agenda and no stakes or risk to himself. 
I have had trouble in understanding why the crucifix as well. Your perspective on things makes sense. Why not do x if x would be easier and better, right? 

 there does seem to be a  mix of information here. i dont mean misinformation but a mixture as to what occured, under tradition and the bible. 

A. ) God did not pretend to be human. Vast majority of sects use various bible verses and theological aptitudes to show how Jesus is 100% human and 100% God. 

How? Fuck I know how. But if God is 3 persons in 1 God, then anything be possible. 


As J.I. Packer has said, “Here are two mysteries for the price of one — the plurality of persons within the unity of God, and the union of Godhead and manhood in the person of Jesus. . . . Nothing in fiction is so fantastic as is this truth of the Incarnation.”1
Here are two quick inserts about it:


B. I am not sure if we can say woth not agenda, at least. Because Jesus is said to descend into hell/hades (greek) and preach the Word of God. 

This one is tricky but supposedly jewish tradition tells us everyone went to the same place after death because heaven is not open to everyone. Although translation gives us the word hell to describe this place, I have some doubt in its accuracy. But thats ok. 


No idea. In spite of so many years of going to church and all that, I have no idea why it signifies anything at all, at least anything like has been taught. Feel free to explain it, but substantiating it or making a compelling case is pretty difficult. 
Wow so you are saying that all you know is the events as to what happened (at least some of it) but not the meaning or purpose behind it? 

Hm ok..no worries.. I firgure I can just give the catholic part in it since you said that is where you went. 

This website in whole provides better descriptions and works cited than any I have seen. There are other sites that can do the same but this just feels more complete. Feel free to look for others, but I think this link sums everything up. 

 
Can people act in ways that are not according to god's plan? I should ask this more often, because every Christian seems to have a different answer and explanation of how it works (see Malcharaz and his problem explaining free will in earlier posts, eventually he just drops it entirely as too vexing). If the answer is no, they cannot act outside of god's plan because that makes god less than all knowing, less than all powerful and imperfect, then it follows necessarily that all of mankind's ills, all the things people do to piss off god so much that all this has to happen in the first place, are because that is exactly how god wanted it to go. If you lack free will this way, then you also lack agency, and that means you lack accountability. You can't get mad at a computer program for doing what you program it to do. Does that help?

Unfortunately, christians split into different ideas on this. Catholics say you have free will. So yes humans can act in ways against gods will. Some call it sin but we can look at definitions if need be. 

Doing things in or out of Gods plan sounds confusing because in some ways we can say yes or no. Yes because you can choose to go against what God wants for us. No because we still are in Gods plan. Just depends on what is meant by being in gods plan. 

Otherwise that explaination was great. Very helpful. 



What's the punishment for eating from the tree, the whole punishment? It doesn't stop at being evicted, right?
Oh yea yea. You are right..I heard it as not so much as punishment but hereditary. 

Lets say your ancestors had blue eyese. But you, your parents, your grandparents, your great grandparents, and great great grandparents have brown. Some where along the line your ancestors lost the ability to give you something they had. 

Likewise, immortality and the likes disapates over the years until we come to us. We do not have what they had because they lost it. So now we have to regain immortality. But something gets in the way. 

We now have the innate ability to recognize there is good and evil. Which means we can choose ither. For christianity good and evil revolve around doing x which involves god or doing x which rejects god. Although we know through humam nature what we should or should not do, we can contradict our own understanding or moral compass. Our own actions just make everything into a circle. 
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@Stephen
Hm.  Your negativity seems to be the problem. Just follow the links provided and search for the answers there. 
You will do just fine. They take questions too. 
.
2. I already said that the angel did not GIVE anything to Jesus. Thats not what the passage says. Jesus was stregnthened by seeing the Angel which reflects internal action not external. Again. The angel did not give Jesus anything. 

Oh and well is swell with me. Peace be with you. 
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@hey-yo
Is Jesus god or is he not god?
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@hey-yo
How? Fuck I know how. But if God is 3 persons in 1 God, then anything be possible.
Yeah, this is kind of the trick, right? I just can't find a way to hand wave this and say "It's so." It doesn't make sense that 1 thing can also be three completely distinct things, it violates the law of identity at the very least. It literally demands that we ignore logic, and doesn't justify why beyond "Otherwise it doesn't work." 

Because Jesus is said to descend into hell/hades (greek) and preach the Word of God. 

I'm not sure if this is your quote, but it doesn't address my main quandary here: there is no sacrifice. There was never going to be a sacrifice. The character in question risks absolutely nothing at all, instead takes a three day weekend basically preaching to spirits. I presume about how awesome god is and how much he loves them, after they spent who knows how long burning in hell because of something someone they'd never met did (again, the garden). I'm sure that message went great and that all the converts were true believers :). 

 Yes because you can choose to go against what God wants for us. No because we still are in Gods plan. Just depends on what is meant by being in gods plan. 
Look, I'm not trying to be a smart ass, it's rare to have a civil tone in here about religion (or anything else). I'd love to keep it going. But this doesn't advance the ball on my question at all. Yes and no is not an answer. So what do you think the bold means, maybe that will help? Free will is simply not logically compatible with an immutable plan made by some all powerful being. Either you're part of the plan and doing what you're supposed to, or you're not, and the plan isn't a plan at all. It's a hope. 

We do not have what they had because they lost it. So now we have to regain immortality. But something gets in the way. 
Well, that's kind of the nicer way to put it, right? Another way to put it is if you DON'T regain it somehow, you're punished literally for the rest of time, with horrors that defy imagination. That, according to the tradition, applies across the board of humanity. It also puts aside the fact that it's immoral to punish someone for something someone else did. 

Our own actions just make everything into a circle. 
How so? And if so, isn't that the design?
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if you want to know what scripture says of predestination, ask.
if you want to know my understanding of it, read my debate with speedrace.
do not assume my feelings or thoughts, do not imprint your vexation or confusion on me.
ask, and ill answer. If you dont understand then that is your problem. Especially if i tried to explain.

As to abraham.
everything about serving God is personal, abraham came out from under ur, which was 1 of the cities built by nimrod who organized the people to build babel and defy God.
its easy to say for you that there was no test, because we are looking back in hindsight and God hasnt asked us to sacrifice our son.
what makes the experience of abraham so awesome is exactly what is not understood, by those who didnt live his life. we didnt live in the time where children were offered to gods. The implications of offering what is most important to you to a God that promised him to be a father of nations... in the future, that the land he walked is where his offspring/seed would dwell... in the future, that the 90 year old woman would have a son... in the future, Yet despite all the impossibility, he believed God more than what his life indicated, than his family indicated, than religion indicated.

yet foolish people who dont walk in that lifestyle and are looking back say. "it was no test."

The greatest method of spotting a fool is when they dont regard the struggle of obeying an invisible God. seeing they make no sacrifice to him themselves.
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As to Jesus.
God wasnt attempting a test, he went through the laws of his own word to make himself a scarifice for humanity. What makes the sacrifice of God so great is what is not understood by humanity. That a God, holy, immortal, good, king of all things. would put on flesh, suffer all the evil and temptations we do (and more) to give humanity the opportunity to become like him and dwell with him.

again, the fools are evidenced in that they disregard God by disregarding the trials a person faces in seeking God, dehumanizing the process because they themselves wouldnt lift one finger to do anything that doesnt make them happy.

tldr
hypocrites, suffer like christ and abraham suffered before making them seem meaningless.
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@Melcharaz
yet foolish people who dont walk in that lifestyle and are looking back say. "it was no test."
All that stuff doesn't change the fact that it is NOT in any way a test. A "test" is like an experiment, right? You're doing something, whatever it is, to see what the outcome is, perhaps to confirm something you think but don't know, and the test / experiment is the way to do it. If this is a test, then that would mean God doesn't know if Abraham is faithful. That's from the god perspective: he's setting up the conditions and seeing what happens. So, if he does indeed have all knowledge of men's hearts and all that, HE ALREADY KNOWS if Abraham is faithful, and therefore the test is superfluous to god. This is akin to me saying "I want to do an experiment: I want to cut the legs off of a frog and see if it can still jump." I know very well the frog isn't going to be able to jump without his legs. The experiment would then be nothing more than an excuse to be cruel to some other living thing, for no gain at all. 

Maybe god knew all along that he'd never let Abraham kill that kid, right? Then god lied to Abraham. So many people say god is the truth, though...except he lied in at least this one place, right? 

Hm. Maybe god changed his mind when he was so moved by Abraham's faith! That'd be benevolent of him, sure. Except then he was surprised by Abraham, and thereby does not know all things and all men and all actions for all time. 

Maybe Abraham knew god was just fucking with him and he'd never actually have to kill the kid. Abraham then has less than full faith in god because he thinks god's kidding around, AND he makes god look silly by fooling him into thinking he WOULD kill Isaac.  

Are there other options that I'm not considering? Which one of the above is it? 
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@Tradesecret
Objective Christian doctrine.

Hmmmmmmm.


So, if this is the basis of objectivity, then any narrative qualifies.
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@ludofl3x
I been pondering a few things and something came up. 

1. Trinity. Ok so 3 parts to 1 thing right? Clover. A clover leaf is one leaf that has 3 parts to it. Each part is distinct in sense it may differ from other parts. Each part is a single leaf. 

How is that for an analogy? 

2. Time. You bring up an interesting comparison where God is in Hell for three days (give or take) but the people in there are there for eternity.

A ) what is sacrafice to you?

B) have you ever considered God's experience or existence? 
He is outside of time right? He would have created time and therefore be outside of it. Therefore he experiences all of time at once all the time. Eternity. 

Agree, disagree, do I at least make a comprehensive statement? Tis be late here. 

 3. Part of a plan? Hm.. what do you think is the plan?
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@zedvictor4
What does that mean?
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@hey-yo
Well.

How do you define objectivity?

As I see it, Christian doctrine is wholly subjective.

Ok, so I'm an atheist, but my observation is based upon my understanding of definition relative to the subject matter.

Any doctrine is made up, and so therefore subjective.
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@zedvictor4
Objective Christian doctrine.

Hmmmmmmm.


So, if this is the basis of objectivity, then any narrative qualifies.
Hi Zed,

as always you seem to say something and then don't. 

There is such a thing as objective Christian doctrine.  This is what the creeds are. What the councils discussed.  How the confessions came about.  

Objective and subjective are two different things. The former is where two or more people come to the same position using similar methodologies. The latter is where no one else is able to reach the same conclusion save and except that they believe another person because they do. 

An example of the latter is Stephen and or the Brother.  they both make stuff up and no one else in the entire world comes to the same conclusion all by themselves. 

Objectivity rules out - "any narrative qualifies".  Did you forget to have your weeties today? 
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@Tradesecret
Weeties not my favourite Trade.

Porridge is the stuff.

And perhaps we don't read the same dictionary, or perhaps we read the same dictionary but not in the same way.

A hypothesis in it's narrative form is objective, in so much as it is a demonstrable documentation of said hypothesis, but this in no way objectively substantiates the hypothetical content of the narrative.

In fact, hypothetical and subjective could be said to be synonymous.



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@Tradesecret perhaps we don't read the same dictionary, or perhaps we read the same dictionary but not in the same way.

Yes it is a trait of Tradesecret to redefine words that are universally acceptable to anyone in the English speaking world and invent his own meanings and definitions  to fit his argument.