How to read the Bible - Guide for beginners

Author: Best.Korea

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#61
zedvictor4
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@DavidAZ
How we evaluate data relative to developed understanding.

We simply know more now than we did then.

So gaps in our understanding of material processes, are no longer filled with often fantastical hypotheses.

Which is not to say that there are still no gaps.
#62
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@zedvictor4
The Reverend Tradesecret wrote:

@ zedvictor4:
so you admit to being willfully ignorant. To suggest that there is currently nothing new to encourage you to change your viewpoint is the epitome of such a view. I consider that there are always things about that might help me change my view. I don't know everything and often am corrected in my understanding.  It must be a hard slog for you being so perfect.  

It wasn't a frustrated dig. that suggests that somehow you are frustrating me. Not true. 

I love how you change the goalposts and use humour to do it.  

the point is - you say truth exists - but you don't know how to get there and worse than that - you think anyone else is NEVER going to get there before you. So you simply cast doubts on everything they say.  I might call that envy.  Are you envious of others who have satisfied and balanced lives? Is your life so unstable that you have to believe that everyone else is just as unstable as your own?  

Sly slights and smarmy digs - a plenty. This from a he that claims to be a Christian Pastor and a Chaplain  to his countries armed forces #20. With all his years of being taught to memorising the bible from an early age #52 and couldn't even remember this:

Colossians 3:12-13
“Put on then, as God's chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassionate hearts, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience, bearing with one another and, if one has a complaint against another, forgiving each other; as the Lord has forgiven you, so you also must forgive.”

"chosen by god", my arse!


#63
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@hey-yo
 do children go to hell? No. 
So it's off to heaven for these infant babes, then.

This will be after commanding that the " heads of infants be smashed against the rock's- and be happy about it"?  Psalms 137:9

Or is it after the order to slay all infants at 1 Samuel 15:3 ? 

Maybe it would be after killing of infants before their eyes of their parents?  Isaiah 13:16


You missed this too:
Luke 22: 42-44

43 "And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven and strengthened him".

Don't make me laugh.
So Jesus is god that needed assistance from an angelic underling "to strengthen him!? 

WHY!?


#64
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@DavidAZ
What are you referring to as 21st century logic? 

Well did Abraham have the logical sense to work out that god would have broken his promise if Isaac had indeed died and didn't call god on it?

Well I did -  the moment I first  I read it. 
That is 21st century logic.
#65
Deb-8-a-bull
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@Stephen
But surely the bible has 25th century logic.  
Even 3oth cent log. 
Its the most important book ever.  

The bible was ummmm inspired by frigging God. 
God knows exactly  what happens in the year 3410.
The bible got did
I mean .
The bible was done with things that occur  in the year 2287 IN MIND. 

GOD didn't do a bible with only knowing as far as the year  600.  

If god did the bible with know foresight 
I may currently be smarter then God. 

Thank you. 
Thanks.  

The bible would be wayyyyyyy awsome if it had  more " Nostradamus "   like qualities.  

#66
DavidAZ
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@zedvictor4
So gaps in our understanding of material processes, are no longer filled with often fantastical hypotheses.
Not trying to sound challenging here, but give me an example.
#67
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@Stephen
Well I did -  the moment I first  I read it. 
That is 21st century logic.

I'm sure that Abraham figured this out too.  He wasn't well to do because he was stupid.  He believed God would stick to his word, unlike most folks in the 21st century.

I see your view more as 21st century skepticism.
#68
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@DavidAZ

I'm sure that Abraham figured this out too. 

If the idiot had worked it out wouldn't he have reminded god of his promise or at least ask? And there is always the possibility that the whole story is bullshite. I mean, didn't god already know Abraham was a faithful "servant"?


I see your view more as 21st century skepticism.
Whilst using simple logic.


He wasn't well to do because he was stupid

He was a Prince. They don't work for a living. It is more likely he got his wealth and title from conquest. This doesn't indicate intellect nor logic.
#69
DavidAZ
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@Stephen
He was a Prince. They don't work for a living. It is more likely he got his wealth and title from conquest. This doesn't indicate intellect nor logic.
Some pretty amazing jumps of logic here!  In fact, it looks like some real mental acrobatics going on in your head!  If only I could rise to the level of your mental capacity.

I'd say 21st century logic is treating you well, as long as you get to fill in any blanks with your own way of thinking.

This actually could be fun!
#70
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@DavidAZ

Some pretty amazing jumps of logic here!  

 Note at all. Taking it as face value, the whole story could well be bullshite. 


  If only I could rise to the level of your mental capacity.

No need for your slights.  You make the assumption that Abraham knew all along that god would keep his promise.  If we go by your own unfounded logic, then why the need for a "test of faith" in the first place?  It was a test of faith , wasn't it?

 I mean, didn't  the almighty and god already know Abraham was a faithful "servant"?

Why the need for this test in the first instance? 


I'd say 21st century logic is treating you well,

Indeed. 21st century education has served me well.


as long as you get to fill in any blanks.......

 Such is the nature of scripture. It has that many gaps and leaps in time one has to look elsewhere for possible clues and or answerers.


your own way of thinking.

21st century logical thinking instead of blind and ignorant faith. 





#71
DavidAZ
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@Stephen
If we go by your own unfounded logic, then why the need for a "test of faith" in the first place?  It was a test of faith , wasn't it?
Good question, assuming that we understand the mind of God.

21st century logical thinking instead of blind and ignorant faith.
Fine.  Run your little rabbit trail of logic.  My brother was the same.  Dignified.  So intelligent. So educated. and was out to unintentionally destroy his life and others with the "21st century logic".  After a few years of beating his head against the wall, he came to his senses.  He didn't become a Christian, he just decided to change his ways.  He became financially successful and was able to keep friends and a wife.   And guess what?  He acts like a Christian without going to any church.  In fact, he hates church.

Hmmm. . . amazing that 21st century logic breaks things and good ole biblical principles make them better.

People are focused on the corrupt things of man when talking about religion.  I HATE religion.  I believe in God and his ways. 

Now look at me, rambling on about your logic.
#72
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@DavidAZ
If we go by your own unfounded logic, then why the need for a "test of faith" in the first place?  It was a test of faith , wasn't it?
Good question, assuming that we understand the mind of God.

It was a simple enough question. Was it a test of Abrahams faith or not?



Hmmm. . . amazing that 21st century logic breaks things and good ole biblical principles make them better.

Examples please?


People are focused on the corrupt things of man when talking about religion. 
I don't understand that. can you expand?


I HATE religion. 
I love biblical and religious study.


I believe in God and his ways. 

Then you need to study "his ways" a bit closer.  He is a vile , vengeful, god of war and has been from day one. And he only has an eye for his "chosen people" ; Israelites, and look how he treats them throughout the Old Testament.




#73
DavidAZ
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@Stephen
Was it a test of Abrahams faith or not?
Yes.
Examples please?
Without getting too philosophical, 21st century logic tries to do away the bible and God, like you said.  The problem is the bible and God is the way we thrive as a community the best.  Take that away and the community deteriorates. So, for an example, if you think it's okay to sleep with whoever you deem worthy, then you degrade yourself and your future wife.  You don't take it seriously and with that same frame of mind, your marriage, even with the best intentions, will fail.   Families split, children are fatherless, so on and so on.  Need another?

I don't understand that. can you expand?
We will focus on the disgusting behavior of catholic priests.  We focus on the money grabbers like TV evangelists.  What we fail to see is the actual message they pretend to give.  We use those examples and then shroud EVERYTHING biblical as bad.  When in truth, people are selfish in general and those few that were bad need to be isolated as hypocrites, not the message.  Expanded enough?

Then you need to study "his ways" a bit closer.  He is a vile , vengeful, god of war and has been from day one. And he only has an eye for his "chosen people" ; Israelites, and look how he treats them throughout the Old Testament.
This goes along with my point above.  When you have a tainted outlook on this subject, you tend to isolate only what you want to see.  I agree it seems that God is a heartless one during the old testament, but read the prophets and psalms.  He does have mercy and kindness for those that love him.


#74
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@DavidAZ
Was it a test of Abrahams faith or not?
Yes.
Then why would a all knowing god need to test his faith?

Examples please?
Without getting too philosophical, 21st century logic tries to do away the bible and God, like you said. 
I don't remember saying that. Maybe you can remind me?


The problem is the bible and God is the way we thrive as a community the best.  Take that away and the community deteriorates.
So the natives tribes of Papua New Guinea and native tribes of the Amazonian rain forest are in in disarray and are deteriorating because they have never heard of Jehovah? 

So, for an example, if you think it's okay to sleep with whoever you deem worthy, then you degrade yourself and your future wife. 

[A] Opinion  and a poor example of people living without religion. and your example could- if there is any truth to it - could apply to a couple who are married and have a family.

You don't take it seriously and with that same frame of mind, your marriage, even with the best intentions, will fail.   Families split, children are fatherless, so on and so on. 

See [A]above

Need another?

Not if it's as poor as the example that you have already offered.

People are focused on the corrupt things of man when talking about religion. 
I don't understand that. can you expand?

We will focus on the disgusting behavior of catholic priests.  We focus on the money grabbers like TV evangelists.  What we fail to see is the actual message they pretend to give. 
Well you have offered the reasons why some focus on the "pretence of money grabbers" pretending to be men chosen by god. Pastors and priests are infamous for it.


We use those examples and then shroud EVERYTHING biblical as bad. 

Some may do that as a result of the extremely bad behaviour of some sexual deviant Pastors and Priests  but I don't use their perversions as an excuse or reason to question and scrutinise biblical text. the content of the bible itself - all on its own - is enough for me to question everything about it.


When in truth, people are selfish in general and those few that were bad need to be isolated as hypocrites, not the message.  Expanded enough?

Well I am not stupid or naïve enough to tar everyone with the same brush. That, I have often found is a terrible habit of theists towards non believers. You may not understand but I don't have a problem with Christians nor do I have a problem with anyone that has a faith. My problem springs directly from the scriptures themselves.


Then you need to study "his ways" a bit closer.  He is a vile , vengeful, god of war and has been from day one. And he only has an eye for his "chosen people" ; Israelites, and look how he treats them throughout the Old Testament.
This goes along with my point above.  When you have a tainted outlook on this subject, you tend to isolate only what you want to see. 
Which springs from, and has it's roots in, the bible. It is the bible that causes me to question it. I am sorry you don't understand this but I have every right to question and scrutinise what is written therein and I question and scrutinise it even closer when theists tell me god loves us on the one hand while commanding the heads of infants be smashed against rocks and be happy about it on the other.


I agree it seems that God is a heartless one during the old testament,

You aren't wrong there. And he doesn't "seem " to be, he damn well is.


but read the prophets

I could write a book on the so called prophets but could take quite a large volume.


and psalms. 
The psalms are nothing more than a series of laments written by unknown authors, and usually asking why god has done one thing or another to someone or another. Or not done one thing or another. Or why the suffering or why all the sorrow in the world..  So you see, they were asking the same questions then as they are to this day. And this is where your Pastors and Priests step with all the answers - my son - and take advantage of the lost and lonely. The down hearted, the vulnerable, the disenfranchised. The dying and the bereaved. They are fkn parasites and always have been. IMO of course.


He does have mercy and kindness for those that love him.

Not in my opinion. And god has given me no reason to love him. 

But to emphasize again. My problem is with the scriptures. I don't have a problem with Christians or that they have a faith. Its what they have faith in that interests me.



#75
Tradesecret
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@zedvictor4
Nope.


In terms of data processing, one can only frustrate oneself.


And I suppose that we are both the epitome of a point of view.


And wherein do you imagine lies my instability. 
Hmmmmm, this paragraph just seemed like another series of frustrated digs to me Trade. 
Let's just be content to disagree about the GOD concept.


I would suggest that satisfaction comes from contentment, and further suggest that contentment is one of the benefits getting older. More to do with natural physiology than conscious data management. Though there is a balance to be made, not overburdening the brain, whilst also keeping it active.
Denial is good for the soul, hey? 
#76
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@Stephen
I don't remember saying that. Maybe you can remind me?
Oops!  I looked through the posts and you did not say that.  I was referring to Zed's post of "So gaps in our understanding of material processes, are no longer filled with often fantastical hypotheses."  I messed that one up.  Sorry.

Opinion  and a poor example of people living without religion. and your example could- if there is any truth to it - could apply to a couple who are married and have a family.
I suppose your opinion is as valid as any other.  But my point is that if you look at a serious relationship with your own standards and not biblical standards, then you will justify bad treatment and divorce, thus breaking up a family, which is a bad thing.  This is the same for anyone with or without religion.  They need biblical standards to keep themselves in check.  Have a standard to follow, but if your standard is however you feel that day, it won't work.  I'm also not saying that any relationship will break without a bible in the house.  I'm saying that if any relationship stays intact, it is going to be by biblical standards, whether they mean to follow it or not. 

So the natives tribes of Papua New Guinea and native tribes of the Amazonian rain forest are in in disarray and are deteriorating because they have never heard of Jehovah?
Really?  You are going to use them as a wonderful example of civilization?   I said their society is lacking without biblical principle.  There is a reason why they are still primitive and why European influence has nearly occupied the globe.  It has been done through biblical principles.  These principles will always help a society, not tear it down.  If the Chinese, Japanese, Indian, or Russian countries thrive, it is because they endorse the principles and not just the bible itself.

Not in my opinion. And god has given me no reason to love him. 

But to emphasize again. My problem is with the scriptures. I don't have a problem with Christians or that they have a faith. Its what they have faith in that interests me.

Your views are pretty unique.  I asked you this before, but what is your religious background? 
#77
Stephen
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@DavidAZ

He does have mercy and kindness for those that love him.

Not in my opinion. And god has given me no reason to love him. But to emphasize again. My problem is with the scriptures. I don't have a problem with Christians or that they have a faith. Its what they have faith in that interests me.

Your views are pretty unique. 

I'm sure they are not.

You missed this:
Was it a test of Abrahams faith or not?
Yes.
Then why would a all knowing god need to test his faith?

#78
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@Best.Korea
Since they are talking about Abraham here, I have a question about him.
Why did he argue with God about destroying  Sodom & Gomorrah, yet unquestioningly prepared to kill his son at God's behest?
#79
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@Stephen
@b9_ntt
@Best.Korea
Are you referring to the idea that he begged for the life of his nephew Lot but not for his son Isaac?

I will be offline for the weekend, so I will answer the question above now.  If I'm wrong on your question, then forgive me.

You are referring to the sacrifice mentioned in chapter 22 of Genesis.  God tempted Abraham and asked for his son as a sacrifice.  I personally believe Abraham didn't think God was going to have him follow thru with it OR if he were to kill his son, God would revive him.  Two reasons for this logic. 1. Isaac was a promised son that was supposed to carry the lineage of Abraham.  The other is that Abraham tells his servant when they get to the mountain "Abide ye here with the ass; and I and the lad will go yonder and worship, and come again to you."  He knew Isaac was coming back down with him.  Also, when Isaac asked about the animal to be sacrificed, Abraham replied, "My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering".

Now, why did God feel he had to tempt Abraham is because God knows our hearts but he cannot tell our future actions.  We have a freewill, so he let's us act them out. 

I expect a firestorm from Stephen but I will have to get back next week for it.
#80
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@DavidAZ
Well, an obvious example would be the generation of electricity and the development of technology from there on in.

Though prior to that, utilising scientific methodology a whole raft of new understanding had been developed.

Metallurgy and engineering, physiology and medicine, astronomy........The list is near endless.]

Which is not to suggest that material development is something new. It's basically what we call evolution, which includes the development of us, and our role in the further exponential development of matter.


And yet some people are still prepared to accept that a mystery being, a pregnant woman, a baby and a stable are the be all and end all of everything.

Without the slightest need for a bit of up to date re-evaluation.
#81
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@Tradesecret
You think that I deny.

And I think that you deny.

Though as long as we are both content with our comparative denials, then all is well.

And any ongoing or residual energy afforded by our component parts, can be referred to as a soul if you like. I've no problem with that.
#82
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@DavidAZ
DavidAZ wrote: I expect a firestorm from Stephen .
Why?


DavidAZ wrote: You are referring to the sacrifice mentioned in chapter 22 of Genesis.  God tempted Abraham and asked for his son as a sacrifice. 

I personally believe Abraham didn't think God was going to have him follow thru with it OR if he were to kill his son, God would revive him.

  Two reasons for this logic. 1. Isaac was a promised son that was supposed to carry the lineage of Abraham.  The other is that Abraham tells his servant when they get to the mountain "Abide ye here with the ass; and I and the lad will go yonder and worship, and come again to you."  Now, why did God feel he had to tempt Abraham is because God knows our hearts but he cannot tell our future actions.  We have a freewill, so he let's us act them out. 
  Also, when Isaac asked about the animal to be sacrificed, Abraham replied, "My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering".



Now, why did God feel he had to tempt Abraham is because God knows our hearts but he cannot tell our future actions.  We have a freewill, so he let's us act them out. 



Ok, here is the part of the story in question.
22 Some time later God tested Abraham. He said to him, “Abraham!”[......................................]

Then Abraham said to his young men, “Stay here with the donkey; I and the boy will go over there and worship and come again to you.” 6 And Abraham took the wood of the burnt offering and laid it on Isaac his son. And he took in his hand the fire and the knife. So they went both of them together. 7 And Isaac said to his father Abraham, “My father!” And he said, “Here I am, my son.” He said, “Behold, the fire and the wood, but where is the lamb for a burnt offering?” 8 Abraham said, “God will provide for himself the lamb for a burnt offering, my son.” So they went both of them together.
9 When they came to the place of which God had told him, Abraham built the altar there and laid the wood in order and bound Isaac his son and laid him on the altar, on top of the wood. 10 Then Abraham reached out his hand and took the knife to slaughter his son. 11 But the angel of the Lord called to him from heaven and said, “Abraham, Abraham!” And he said, “Here I am.” 12 He said, “Do not lay your hand on the boy or do anything to him, for now I know that you fear God, seeing you have not withheld your son, your only son, from me.” Genesis 22:1-12 English Standard Version
This first thing you should look at is the reason for this test (not temptation). That answer comes at verse 12 "for now I know that you fear God".

So your paranoid and jealous god was feeling insecure and didn't seem to trust or have full faith in him. i.e. he had his doubts.  And going by  verse 12, Abraham did what he did out of sheer fear of "the lord" and was willing to cut the throat of own son and burn him to a crisp.

And this doesn't answer why an all powerful and all knowing god didn't know if or not that his servant Abraham was loyal and faithful Or "feared him".  Why didn't he know? 

You say:
DavidAZ wrote:  [A] Now, why did God feel he had to tempt Abraham is because God knows our hearts but he cannot tell our future actions.

Why doesn't he know "our future actions"?  Isn't he always predicting the future actions of mankind?  Revelation springs to mind.


DavidAZ wrote:  [B] We have a freewill, so he let's us act them out. 

Well that simple cannot be true at all can it? It is hardly "free will" when a man is willing to murder his own child out of sheer "fear of the Lord".
  And if as you also say :
DavidAZ wrote: [C]    I personally believe Abraham didn't think God was going to have him follow thru with it OR if he were to kill his son, God would revive him.

Then again, are you trying to tell us that  Abraham somehow called the almighty, all powerful god's bluff?  That he just went through the motions while knowing all the time that god wouldn't allow him to kill his son?  So didn't god know that Abraham knew all long that  god would halt this murder and that he  was only bluffing?  Well it was hardly a fkn test then was it.

 At [C]  you are scaping the barrel of excuses and or reasons for why this test had to take place at all.



 but he cannot tell our future actions.
 And just like   the  Reverend Tradesecret (who is a complete bible dunce and cretin) that brags about having been taught to memorise the bible from a very early age; #52, you forgot this;

"you [ lord] discern my thoughts from afar". Psalms 139: 1-2
 and this;

" for the Lord searches all hearts, and understands every intent of the thoughts” 1 Chronicles 28:9

 The bible is riddled with verses about god knowing our future actions.

  I would hate to think that you were taking bible lessons from a clown like the Reverend Tradesecret, you're not are you?



On the face of it, is all this story has shown me is that your god is a vile, torturous and sadistic god that , as in the case of Job where he showed us that a man's precious children were  literally 10 a penny in his eyes, he  will put his most loyal, trusted and faithful servants through sheer anxiety and mental torture.

Unless of course, it is an allegory?  Only then it just might make some kind of sense.



Have you been slighted by a priest or pastor? 
No. But I had a good slap  from a nun once. Lovely lady, but just like that bible cretin the Reverend Tradsecrete, she didn't appreciate me posing her awkward questions. 😁 


You're responses are very specific.
 Thorough, when I believe they need to be...... or can be bothered to make them so. 
Topic's author
#83
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@b9_ntt
Why did he argue with God about destroying  Sodom & Gomorrah, yet unquestioningly prepared to kill his son at God's behest?
You should ask him that when you see him. I have no need to explain to you that people change their thinking over time.

#84
Deb-8-a-bull
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Another great way to read the bible . ( Especially for beginners ) 
Is Bible study group and pizza Night. 

The reason for this being a great way to read the bible isssssssssss. 

☆♡☆♡☆♡       CHRISTIANS ONLY HANG AROUND JUST CHRISTIANS     ♡☆♡☆♡☆
•••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••FULL STOP••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••

soooooo
A bib stu sleepover piz night provides this service.  
i mean. Me personally. ..
I'm totally fine and happy for the christians to only like hanging out with just the christians.
They obviously love one another. 

Us rat bastard atheists don't  hang around  just rat bastard atheists..  NEVER.

But again.  I'm happy for you guys.   

To the Christians !

For they are a truly a betterer "group"  then a dozen atheist.  


WANKERS
#85
Deb-8-a-bull
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I'm not saying the christians are like some kinda " gang  " of sorts 
Im just saying. 
Well. 
Im just saying  It (  feels )  like you guys are a gang. .

It feels like 
A million christians lined up beside the road and me. Im in position  317,870th  
The Bus starts driving . 
It gets to me and fucking under i go. 

In a order of trustworthiness
It goes a million christians then me. 

You guys are overwhelm me. 
' Starts fanning  face ' 

You Christians are makeing me uncomfortable. 
Thats allllll i am saying.  


' starts slowly jogging away  ' 

Topic's author
#86
Best.Korea
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@Deb-8-a-bull
It (  feels )  like you guys are a gang
Well, an organization based on similar belief. There are plenty of disagreements in Christianity.
#87
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@Best.Korea
You should ask him that when you see him. I have no need to explain to you that people change their thinking over time.
Thank you for your consideration.
#88
b9_ntt
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@Deb-8-a-bull
☆♡☆♡☆♡       CHRISTIANS ONLY HANG AROUND JUST CHRISTIANS     ♡☆♡☆♡☆
Actually, this is the first forum I've seen where atheists and Christians go at it all the time. On the atheist sites, the xians drive by, shoot, and are never seen again. The xian sites don't allow the unclean atheists. This is a great forum.
#89
Tradesecret
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@zedvictor4
ou think that I deny.

And I think that you deny.

Though as long as we are both content with our comparative denials, then all is well.

And any ongoing or residual energy afforded by our component parts, can be referred to as a soul if you like. I've no problem with that.
Zed, you don't make a lot of sense. 

The soul is simply a living human being. All humans are souls. They don't have a soul. They are a soul.  

The bible describes it like this. 

God created a physical body out of the earth.  He breathed into this body and it became a living soul. 

I don't hold to the Greek notion that the body and soul are separate things. 
#90
Deb-8-a-bull
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Thats a good way of "teaching " people about these soul things. 
In short.... A human body is a soul. 

Very nice indeed. 

The man at the front of the church told me once that .  
That was not my grandfather in the coffin, that was simply his shell. 
Sold.
He got me. 

Its fucking beautiful. 
Fales of course 
But beautiful. 

Very well played indeed


Good game.
Good game.