How racism fuels the pro gun movement

Author: Double_R

Posts

Total: 129
Double_R
Double_R's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 5,287
3
2
5
Double_R's avatar
Double_R
3
2
5
-->
@Athias
One cannot avoid racist judgement when the premise of one's analysis is so-called "race." YOU ARE THE ONE bringing up
Racist judgement can be avoided by challenging the premise *or* the conclusion of the argument.

This is like saying "you're the only one bringing up that Socrates is mortal". Well, yeah duh. If all men are mortal and Socrates is a man...
thett3
thett3's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 2,064
3
2
7
thett3's avatar
thett3
3
2
7
-->
@PREZ-HILTON
None of that changes what the op is saying, which is essentially that gun violence disproportionately affects African Americans and that is why a lot of people find it easy to ignore the problem when discussing the 2nd amendment.
Normal people are dimly aware that crime is higher in the “inner city” but they have no idea about how incredibly bad things actually are unless they’re a statistics nerd.

The media sure as hell doesn’t report on it and I’ve seen people banned from social media for staging factual information such as black people committing 60% of the murders in 2021 while 12% of the population—this information gap isn’t due to racism it’s due to anti-racism/wokeness. I don’t think it’s fair to call conservatives racist for “ignoring” a problem that they aren’t really told about in detail and don’t see at all in their personal lives. 
PREZ-HILTON
PREZ-HILTON's avatar
Debates: 18
Posts: 2,806
3
4
9
PREZ-HILTON's avatar
PREZ-HILTON
3
4
9
-->
@Double_R
In other words, if you accept that gun violence is mostly committed by black people and you accept that gun violence is the result of "bad guys with guns", then by extension, you must accept that black people are just far more likely to be bad.

That belief is by definition, racist.
I don't think so. 

I think you can say something like 1% of white people are bad and 5% of black people are bad, without being racist. 

I mean it isn't sexist to say that 75% of pedophiles are male. 

What's more useful to ask is how can we help the black community so they aren't so affected by gun violence. 
bmdrocks21
bmdrocks21's avatar
Debates: 6
Posts: 2,798
4
6
11
bmdrocks21's avatar
bmdrocks21
4
6
11
-->
@SammiBoi
I think there are some cases where someone that commits gun violence aren’t bad people. I think it’s relatively rare, but it does happen.

This whole bad guy vs good guy with a gun is a political slogan, which is meant to be super general rather than a nuanced position by itself
PREZ-HILTON
PREZ-HILTON's avatar
Debates: 18
Posts: 2,806
3
4
9
PREZ-HILTON's avatar
PREZ-HILTON
3
4
9
-->
@thett3
The media sure as hell doesn’t report on it and I’ve seen people banned from social media for staging factual information 
That doesn't help the situation and ai assume it is due to hidden liberal racism. They are usually racist in ways that coddle black people and treat them like babies and the problem is almost exclusive to limousine liberals. 

 I don’t think it’s fair to call conservatives racist for “ignoring” a problem that they aren’t really told about in detail and don’t see at all in their personal lives. 
That's fair. I believe that limousine liberals prefer to work on these problems behind the scenes because their bigoted assumptions about rural whites is they will get a racist interpretation from the facts. (A projection)
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 26,060
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@bmdrocks21
Depending on your definition of "gun violence"
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 26,060
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@PREZ-HILTON
At the height of the gangland prohibition wars, white and black Americans learned to be careful around Italians. Is that racist?
thett3
thett3's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 2,064
3
2
7
thett3's avatar
thett3
3
2
7
-->
@Greyparrot
It is impressive when a secluded white person can't make a distinction between urban black communities and rural ones. That kind of diversity is forever out of reach.
It actually is crazy how concentrated the problem of violence in the black community is. Like I feel bad saying the 12% commit 60% of the murders thing because usually it’s almost always done by people with mile long rap sheets who are just released again and again and again until they finally kill. It’s more like “around 200-250,000 people nationwide commit the majority of violent crime.” Yes this super criminal group is very disproportionately black which is a problem that shouldn’t be ignored but I feel bad associating them with the black people who aren’t criminals which is the vast majority

As a tangent this is how I know the “woke” type people who are constantly attacking whites for having ancestors who did the things all humans did in those times, or for having difficulty pronouncing someones name actually hate white people. I feel bad making a factual statement about black crime rates for fear it might be misconstrued in a way that could hurt or upset innocent people while they feel absolutely no guilt about throwing out constant agitprop and blood libel. 
PREZ-HILTON
PREZ-HILTON's avatar
Debates: 18
Posts: 2,806
3
4
9
PREZ-HILTON's avatar
PREZ-HILTON
3
4
9
-->
@Greyparrot
Atthe height of the gangland prohibition wars, white and black people learned to be careful around Italians. Is that racist?
I don't think so, even if you shuffled the races around. I think liberals would generally disagree though
PREZ-HILTON
PREZ-HILTON's avatar
Debates: 18
Posts: 2,806
3
4
9
PREZ-HILTON's avatar
PREZ-HILTON
3
4
9
-->
@thett3
it’s almost always done by people with mile long rap sheets who are just released again and again and again until they finally kill.
The problem is mostly isolated to young black males so really we could say around 6% do 60% . 

Part of the problem is judges and prosecutors who feel like they need to make up for demographic differences by lightening the sentences of minorities. They never seem to think they can make up for the difference by being harsher towards whites who commit these crimes, which though a bad response to those disparities l, is certainly better than letting dangerous people reofdend before they get a chance to reflect on why they got in trouble 
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 26,060
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@thett3
I think if we had accurate murder data back in 1925, the odds of encountering gun violence from an Irish or Italian in New York back then would have been mind-blowing.
PREZ-HILTON
PREZ-HILTON's avatar
Debates: 18
Posts: 2,806
3
4
9
PREZ-HILTON's avatar
PREZ-HILTON
3
4
9
-->
@Greyparrot
We don't have accurate data now. They are starting to conflate whites with Hispanics as some sort of woke attempt to obscure crime statistics. 

Remember how they said George Zimmerman was a white supremacist? 
thett3
thett3's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 2,064
3
2
7
thett3's avatar
thett3
3
2
7
-->
@PREZ-HILTON
That's fair. I believe that limousine liberals prefer to work on these problems behind the scenes because their bigoted assumptions about rural whites is they will get a racist interpretation from the facts. (A projection)
I think there’s a LOT of cognitive dissonance going on too. A part of their brain knows that certain areas are “dangerous” or that certain schools are “bad” but if you point out what is actually being said by those statements they’ll freak out. Their ideology really isn’t capable of dealing with such a grim reality…not that the right wing is really any better, at least in the US
bmdrocks21
bmdrocks21's avatar
Debates: 6
Posts: 2,798
4
6
11
bmdrocks21's avatar
bmdrocks21
4
6
11
-->
@Double_R
Then any police officer who fires his gun can be reasonably considered a bad person.
Why did you clip out the part before that where I said self-defense shootings aren’t gun violence. I’d add defending other people from violence to that too. So, false


In other words, if you accept that gun violence is mostly committed by black people and you accept that gun violence is the result of "bad guys with guns", then by extension, you must accept that black people are just far more likely to be bad.

That belief is by definition, racist
You keep avoiding my point: if we both agree that we can call murderers bad people, and black people are more likely to commit murder, are we by extension being racist because that would mean blacks are more likely to be bad people (murderers)? An objective, provable fact is that they commit more murders than any other racial group, and according to you murderers can be called bad people.

So it sounds like you believe certain facts are ‘racist’


No, my evidence is the arguments that are being used to advocate for gun prevalence, which I already explained in detail.

And when it comes to wants and/or needs, I prioritize stopping needles loss of life over preserving people's hobbies. I don't consider that racist.
Have you ever even owned a gun? If you have, you’d know the primary purpose of most guns is self-defense or hunting. Another slogan relates to when seconds count, police are minutes away.

I don’t care if you’re a woman, smaller man, outnumbered by criminals, or whatever the case may be, people desire the ability to defend oneself without waiting for the cleanup crew (cops) to get there after the fact

Most fun hobby guns are not used to commit violence, as most gun violence is committed using pistols. So restricting people from buying an AR-15 for fun is going to have a pretty negligible effect
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 26,060
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@thett3
We really should be approaching modern Urban gun violence the exact same way we dealt with it in 1925. Arm the police to the teeth. Kneecap the laws that make it possible for violent Black gangs to operate unhindered. Destroy the sources of income. Go after the people in government positions that are protecting Black gangs.

The solution is already there.
Double_R
Double_R's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 5,287
3
2
5
Double_R's avatar
Double_R
3
2
5
-->
@thett3
There’s a simpler explanation: 
I realize I should have worded the thread differently; instead of "fuels" I should have said "adds fuel to". My point however, I think was made clear in the OP.

I'm not offering what I believe to the the explanation for gun advocacy, I'm just pointing something out which I thought contributes to it. How much is anyone's guess but I thought it worth exploring.

With regards to the points you made, I agree with your assessment to explain why certain groups based on geographical location are more predisposed to landing on one side or the other of this issue. The question then is about what feeds into one's propensity to remain in that position.

Earlier I used the pork example. If you tried to convince someone who's never seen a pig get slaughtered to stop eating pork, showing them probably won't change their mind, but it most likely will make them more sympathetic to the other sides viewpoint.

I think part of what's stopping much of the country from being more sympathetic to gun control arguments is ultimately rooted in racism for the reasons I've laid out in detail. I'm just curious what people have to say to it.
Sidewalker
Sidewalker's avatar
Debates: 8
Posts: 2,674
3
2
5
Sidewalker's avatar
Sidewalker
3
2
5
-->
@Greyparrot
I'm also going to go out on a limb and guess you don't like twisted sister.
I actually do have a twisted sister that I don't like, and yes, she is a Trumper.


PREZ-HILTON
PREZ-HILTON's avatar
Debates: 18
Posts: 2,806
3
4
9
PREZ-HILTON's avatar
PREZ-HILTON
3
4
9
-->
@Sidewalker
Why don't you like your sister?

Why do you call her twisted? 
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 26,060
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@Double_R
I think part of what's stopping much of the country from being more sympathetic to gun control arguments is ultimately rooted in racism for the reasons I've laid out in detail. I'm just curious what people have to say to it.
Would it surprise you to discover many law abiding Blacks in diverse and distinct communities both rural and urban very much want to keep their guns?

Given that, don't you think a much stronger case could be made that laws that take guns away from Blacks could be construed as racist? It was actually part of the Jim Crow laws after all.

Knowing this, does this make you more sympathetic to law abiding Black gun owners?

Genuinely curious if you can allow your mind to make that flip.
Athias
Athias's avatar
Debates: 20
Posts: 3,192
3
3
9
Athias's avatar
Athias
3
3
9
-->
@Double_R
Racist judgement can be avoided by challenging the premise
No it cannot. Because if the premise of the argument is a focus on parsing statistics along the lines of so-called "race," then all pertinent judgement will be "racially discriminatory." You are the one who bears responsibility for your introduction of so-called race, and the conclusions rendered from your introduction of so-called race. Again, I suspect that this is all an attempt to disqualify the pro-gun movement by claiming the supporters are "racist." You have yet to substantiate the reason one should even consider so-called race except to pathologize a position with which you obviously disagree.
Athias
Athias's avatar
Debates: 20
Posts: 3,192
3
3
9
Athias's avatar
Athias
3
3
9
-->
@Double_R
I realize I should have worded the thread differently; instead of "fuels" I should have said "adds fuel to".
That wouldn't have helped.

I'm not offering what I believe to the the explanation for gun advocacy, I'm just pointing something out which I thought contributes to it.
A contribution you have yet to substantiate. It's an offer that relies on syllogistic reasoning from premises that can only conclude a "racist" inference.

How much is anyone's guess but I thought it worth exploring.
I suspect the goal of this exploration was to make pro-gun supporters out to be "racists."




IwantRooseveltagain
IwantRooseveltagain's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 7,597
3
3
6
IwantRooseveltagain's avatar
IwantRooseveltagain
3
3
6
I’m going to start a fund to buy black people AR-15s. I think every black person in America should have an AR-15 and open carry the rifle as much as possible.
IwantRooseveltagain
IwantRooseveltagain's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 7,597
3
3
6
IwantRooseveltagain's avatar
IwantRooseveltagain
3
3
6
-->
@Athias
Tell us again how the Congress ratifies constitutional amendments. Do they actually relocate to each state for the vote to ratify? 
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 26,060
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@ILikePie5
I’m going to start a fund to buy black people AR-15s. I think every black person in America should have an AR-15 and open carry the rifle as much as possible.
Maybe if they started identifying as Ukrainian then they can protect themselves with free guns.
Athias
Athias's avatar
Debates: 20
Posts: 3,192
3
3
9
Athias's avatar
Athias
3
3
9
-->
@IwantRooseveltagain
Tell us again how the Congress ratifies constitutional amendments. Do they actually relocate to each state for the vote to ratify? 
Sure, as soon as you tells us how it was Lincoln who was responsible for freeing the slaves. But take it to the appropriate thread. You seek me out in other threads, and I will not respond. Consider this a courtesy.
IwantRooseveltagain
IwantRooseveltagain's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 7,597
3
3
6
IwantRooseveltagain's avatar
IwantRooseveltagain
3
3
6
-->
@Athias
Sure, as soon as you tells us how it was Lincoln who was responsible for freeing the slaves. 
So you are sticking with the Congress ratifies their own amendment. Ok dummy.

Lincoln freed the slaves as the Commander in Chief of the U.S. military that defeated the Army of the Confederate States.

Lincoln issued the Emancipation Proclamation and then championed the 13th Amendment, personally involving himself in whipping the votes to its ultimate passage.

Your little book by that idiot makes you a dummy, not more informed on the subject. When you choose a book written by an idiot, published by a company that publishes books by Sarah Palin, it just makes you misinformed in addition to being a dummy. 
Athias
Athias's avatar
Debates: 20
Posts: 3,192
3
3
9
Athias's avatar
Athias
3
3
9
-->
@IwantRooseveltagain
You've been warned. Have a nice day, sir.
IwantRooseveltagain
IwantRooseveltagain's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 7,597
3
3
6
IwantRooseveltagain's avatar
IwantRooseveltagain
3
3
6
Who are you, Joe Pesci? Dummy
Double_R
Double_R's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 5,287
3
2
5
Double_R's avatar
Double_R
3
2
5
-->
@Greyparrot
Would it surprise you to discover many law abiding Blacks in diverse and distinct communities both rural and urban very much want to keep their guns?
Yes, I figured that out back in third grade.

This conversation is not about individuals or groups within groups, it's an overview of American politics and the ideas that are prevalent within it. You're free to join it at any time.
Double_R
Double_R's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 5,287
3
2
5
Double_R's avatar
Double_R
3
2
5
-->
@Athias
It's an offer that relies on syllogistic reasoning from premises that can only conclude a "racist" inference.
Great, so we agree that the conclusion is valid.

So let me know if you have an actual challenge to the premises.


I suspect the goal of this exploration was to make pro-gun supporters out to be "racists."
I've already explained in detail what my goal is, if you are unwilling to provide a rational basis for your suspicions then I don't give a rats ass what you suspect. Address the argument or don't. And if you won't then you are free to have a nice day.