How racism fuels the pro gun movement

Author: Double_R

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#121
Athias
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@Double_R
Great, so we agree that the conclusion is valid.

So let me know if you have an actual challenge to the premises.
My contention isn't against whether or not your conclusion logically extends your premises. My contention questions the reason you introduced the premise in the first place.

if you are unwilling to provide a rational basis for your suspicions
I have. Go back and look.

then I don't give a rats ass what you suspect.
Your call.

Address the argument or don't.
I did.

And if you won't then you are free to have a nice day.
Hey, don't take my shit. "Have a nice day" is the way I end things, okay? Get your own. If you continue to employ my trademarked phrases, I'll be forced to thrash you with my vicious rhetoric.




#122
Athias
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@sadolite
Everyone is racist.
Depends on one's description of "racist."
#123
TWS1405_2
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@Public-Choice
Awesome intellectual coward retort there. 🙄 

If the basis of the alleged stereotype is in fact, fact based, Ie - truth, then it ceases being a stereotype and is in fact a fact based truth. That is reality, not a subjective opinion. Period. Fact. Period. 
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#124
Double_R
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@thett3
The last paragraph of my OP you quoted wasn't so much the conclusion of it as much as the logical next step in exploring the phenomenon. I started the thread off with the "more guns = less gun violence" point because that is what a lot of 2A enthusiasts seem to believe based on their arguments, but under scrutiny seems impossible to uphold. Still, if someone actually does believe this then the argument I made up doesn't apply to them, it's just that based off of the apparent absurdity of this position I am awfully skeptical that this is really what most 2A enthusiasts believe deep down.

That's when I pivoted towards the "bad guy with a gun" point. In my experiences arguing with and observing 2A enthusiasts, this seems much more prevalent and more coherent to explain how most see this issue. Personal responsibility is a theme among conservatives, that's basically where this seems to be coming from. It certainly offers a coherent worldview where one can assert that communities suffering from gun violence warrant minimal consideration without being flat out indifferent to human life.

So to address your points directly;

Yes to #1. Chicago as an example is the political right's poster child for talking about gun violence. You'd be hard pressed to convince me that people (who are overwhelmingly white) using this as their example of a liberal gun hell hole don't know that most of the people in the affected areas there are black.

Mostly yes to #2 but I believe that there's a lot of cognitive dissonance there, which is where the "more guns = less gun violence" point comes in.

To # 3 Yes, that's the conclusion. But it's not a direct thought as you describe. I'm not saying that these people think to themselves "well I hate black people so I don't care of they're dying", im saying they are more apathetic to the loss of life because they view it more as a social problem for those communities to figure out. In other words, their explanation for why the violence is so bad in these areas is primarily because of the people there, not because of the conditions in which the people in those areas have been subjected to, the prevalence of guns to which they have contributed being part of that.
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#125
Double_R
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@Athias
My contention isn't against whether or not your conclusion logically extends your premises. My contention questions the reason you introduced the premise in the first place.
And I've explained my reason for doing so in detail. I'm not concerned with whether you accept it, that's not what the thread is about.

if you are unwilling to provide a rational basis for your suspicions
I have. Go back and look.
No, you haven't. All you did was provide a bunch of leading questions offering your view of the issues raised, you made no attempt to address mine.

Hey, don't take my shit. "Have a nice day" is the way I end things, okay? Get your own. If you continue to employ my trademarked phrases, I'll be forced to thrash you with my vicious rhetoric.
No need to run down to the patent office in a tizzy, that line was just for you ; )

#126
PREZ-HILTON
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@Double_R
Chicago as an example is the political right's poster child for talking about gun violence. You'd be hard pressed to convince me that people (who are overwhelmingly white) using this as their example of a liberal gun hell hole don't know that most of the people in the affected areas there are black.
They are likely aware it is predominantly black or has a large black population. Chicago is more famous among conservatives for being an extremely shitty city, which is typically blamed on it being a city that is run by 100% Democrats and used as an example of what happens when Democrats take control of an area. 55 years ago when it wasn't so liberal you could see how beautiful the city was before liberal ideology resulted in the current state of the area.

Same thing with Detroit that has a large black population, the decay of Detroit is usually blamed on it becoming mostly liberal politicians. A similar cause and effect cycle. Make liberals the majority, be it north Korea Venezuela, Mexico, Detroit or Chicago and you see the same result over and over.

Whether this perception that liberal cities like Chicago are less pleasent to live in than conservative cities like Jupiter Island in Florida is true or not is beside the point. The perception of it being terrible cities to live in is perceived to be the fault of liberals not blacks.

Although, I must say. Liberal majorities in predominantly white areas like New Hampshire do quite well. So not sure if we could blame race for the shithole cities or liberalism, but my heart tells me liberalism is the cause since we can see the decay of predominantly white countries who slip to the bottom positions of the economic freedom index (an index measuring how conservative a country is). 
#127
TheUnderdog
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@Double_R
 If white neighborhoods were plagued by gun violence the way black neighborhoods have been I sincerely doubt the “bad guy with a gun” narrative would resonate anywhere nearly as strong as it does.
When I think of a bad guy with a gun, it’s usually a white guy.  I think of Dylan Roof.  Under no pretext/shall not be infringed.
#128
Athias
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@Double_R
The OP is basically asking us to consider whether those who are in support of the second amendment are racist because the conclusion, "guns don't kill people; only bad people with guns kill people" is codified with your arbitrary division of the statistics along the lines of race. It would be akin to inferring that those who were against the "Yes means yes" campaign, especially in their conclusions that "only bad people rape women," and claiming that they're racists because of an incidental so-called "racial disparity." If I state "only bad people are serial killers or only bad people shoot up schools," am I being racist toward so-called "whites"? Again, you're attempting to disqualify a position with which you disagree by introducing the subject of so-called "race" as a platitude.

So I'll state it in no uncertain terms: merely stating that "only bad people with guns kill people" does not make one racist, and it doesn't make their support of "gun rights" racist. It's a moral/ethical conclusion based on the action. It does not transmute in response to the so-called "race" of the referent.
#129
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@ILikePie5