Atheism and humanism are completely contradictory

Author: Conservallectual

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#691
3RU7AL
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@Tarik
what is the OBJECTIVE that "morality" leads to ?
Heaven
so "objective morality" means "trust the jesus to get you into heaven and forgive all your sins"

and then do whatever you wish whenever you wish
#692
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@3RU7AL
So you agree with the rest of us that your ideas are NOT FACTUAL.
MORALITY is NOT an OBJECT

therefore,

MORALITY cannot be OBJECTIVE
Yep, I get it,  the word objective only applies to objects, and only objects exist. 

Can't argue with that, well, I could argue with that, anybody with half a brain could, but what would be the point.
#693
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@Sidewalker
MORALITY is NOT an OBJECT

therefore,

MORALITY cannot be OBJECTIVE
Yep, I get it,  the word objective only applies to objects, and only objects exist. 
only OBJECTS can "exist independently of a mind" (if you consider the definition of "objective")
#694
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@3RU7AL
MORALITY is NOT an OBJECT

therefore,

MORALITY cannot be OBJECTIVE
Yep, I get it,  the word objective only applies to objects, and only objects exist. 
only OBJECTS can "exist independently of a mind" (if you consider the definition of "objective")
Not gonna argue with an object, I mean, what would be the objective?

NOUMENON
#695
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@Tarik
And it is beside the point whether I am an atheist or not.
Originally the jealous discussion didn’t even involve you so I’m not sure you know what the point even is,

 You have asked, what is God to be jealous of? >>>#614 I have shown you here>>> Exodus 34:14
" Do not worship any other god, for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God".

That is the answer to your question. It is irrelevant if or not I am an atheist. And it matters not how long you wish to drag out this simple BIBLICAL fact, the answer will remain the same.







#696
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@3RU7AL
so "objective morality" means "trust the jesus to get you into heaven and forgive all your sins"

and then do whatever you wish whenever you wish
No
#697
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@Stephen
 You have asked, what is God to be jealous of? >>>#614 I have shown you here>>> Exodus 34:14

" Do not worship any other god, for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God".

That is the answer to your question. It is irrelevant if or not I am an atheist. And it matters not how long you wish to drag out this simple BIBLICAL fact, the answer will remain the same.
You really need to work on your reading comprehension dude, there’s a reason why I asked that question.

#698
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@Tarik
You have asked, what is God to be jealous of? >>>#614 I have shown you here>>> Exodus 34:14

" Do not worship any other god, for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God".

That is the answer to your question. It is irrelevant if or not I am an atheist. And it matters not how long you wish to drag out this simple BIBLICAL fact, the answer will remain the same.
You really need to work on your reading comprehension dude, there’s a reason why I asked that question.

And there was a reason I answered it. The answer to your question is - other god's. Or don't you understand the answer. 


#699
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@Tarik
so "objective morality" means "trust the jesus to get you into heaven and forgive all your sins"

and then do whatever you wish whenever you wish
No
how do you get to heaven ?
#700
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You guys should give up trying to define or understand objectivity. Besides none of you can be objective given your subjective biases against each other.
#701
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@Tarik
It literally said (of a person or their judgment) in the definition.
Do you read anything I write? Here is what I said. The full sentence;

“Objectivity isn’t referring to the judging of anything, it’s referring to the essence of what’s being judged.”

Note the bold where I mention that something is in fact being judged. My entire post was about how there has to be a mind involved in the processing of the statement and how this fits into the concept of objectivity as being independent of the mind.

Here is your full definition:

“(of a person or their judgment) not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts.”

These two statements are perfectly in line with each other. Your definition begins with the acknowledgment of the fact that something is being judged which is an acknowledgment that there has to be some mind involved in the process. It then moves on to explaining that the judgement is “not influenced by personal feelings or opinions”. So what would be an example of something that’s not influenced by personal feelings or opinions? The shape of the earth.

It’s the same damn thing I just said. There are two parts; the processing (done by a mind) and the essence (independent of the mind). Both are required. Without the latter it’s not objective, without the former there’s no statement of objectivity/subjectivity to even consider.

It requires God who created it.
Meaningless statement. You’re talking to an atheist.

our mind shouldn’t be compared to His
The idea that god has some kind of different mind is purely made up and devoid of any meaning.

Lastly it seems like your backpedaling from your previous argument because before I said a subjective opinion can’t be taught and now your saying subjective morality can’t be demonstrated, which is basically the same thing.
It’s not backpedaling, you don’t understand it. 

I never took the position that something subjective can’t be taught, that was your argument. I showed how morality despite being subjective can be taught (because it is objective from the standpoint of the standard).

I’ve explained this multiple times already. It’s not an absolute. It *depends* on where we are starting from. This is not complicated.

If we are starting from the standpoint of a particular standard, morality is objectively discernible from that point.

If we are starting at a point before a standard is invoked and agreed upon, morality is subjective because any standard can be challenged and there is no means to resolve that dispute other than personal opinion or preference.

Your position is that the latter is still objective because you know, God n stuff. That’s a declaration, not an argument. And it’s one that defies basic logic.
#702
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@Stephen
And there was a reason I answered it.
Well answer this, what was the reasoning behind the question?
#703
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@3RU7AL
how do you get to heaven ?
I don’t know
#704
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@Tarik
Why are atheists like water?
#705
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@Sidewalker
Why are atheists like water?

Atheists, like theists, cannot walk on water.
#706
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@Tarik
You have asked, what is God to be jealous of? >>>#614 I have shown you here>>> Exodus 34:14

" Do not worship any other god, for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God".

That is the answer to your question. It is irrelevant if or not I am an atheist. And it matters not how long you wish to drag out this simple BIBLICAL fact, the answer will remain the same.
You really need to work on your reading comprehension dude, there’s a reason why I asked that question.

And there was a reason I answered it. The answer to your question is - other god's. Or don't you understand the answer. 

Well answer this, what was the reasoning behind the question?


It matters not to me what YOUR OWN reasoning was. You asked a simple and clear enough question. Why you insist on this pointless merry-go- round over something that you invoked only you know.

 You wanted to know what a god - your god - had to be jealous of.? #614

I told you:  other god's #617. And only god knows why he is jealous of other gods. I can only assume it was taken it as some kind of adultery or treachery or treason. Although, jealousy appears to contradict Galatians 5:20 where it clearly states that jealousy is a sin. Not to mention that Christians insists there is only one god where the bible AND GOD contradicts this belief.  But there again Christians are well known for denying what their own scriptures actually do state.

I answered your question with a response from the mouth of god himself>>>>  Do not worship any other god, for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God". Exodus 34:14









#707
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@Stephen
Why are atheists like water?

Atheists, like theists, cannot walk on water.
No, it's because Jesus can make them both wine.

#708
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@Double_R
So what would be an example of something that’s not influenced by personal feelings or opinions? The shape of the earth.
And what happens when someone else dies (the “essence” of what morality is predicated on).

Meaningless statement. You’re talking to an atheist.
I’ve always had been, still hasn’t stopped you from making the “even if God did exist” argument multiple times before.

The idea that god has some kind of different mind is purely made up and devoid of any meaning.
Your arguments toward God are based on a regular human standard when God is by definition superhuman.

I never took the position that something subjective can’t be taught, that was your argument.
And yours was and I quote

you cannot demonstrate it
Literally the same difference.

I showed how morality despite being subjective can be taught (because it is objective from the standpoint of the standard).
Making consistent arguments within a given standard doesn’t justify the logic behind the standard itself (all circles back to when I said subjective morality doesn’t make sense because you still have to justify that starting point) and if the standard is subjective it can’t be taught like I said before.

I’ve explained this multiple times already. It’s not an absolute. It *depends* on where we are starting from. This is not complicated.
We start with God, so any deviation is logically inconsistent because He created the standard and us.

If we are starting from the standpoint of a particular standard, morality is objectively discernible from that point.
Discerning objectivity from any particular starting point doesn’t necessarily make that starting point moral (I said something similar in an upper paragraph) only God can be the judge of that.
#709
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@Stephen
It matters not to me what YOUR OWN reasoning was. You asked a simple and clear enough question. Why you insist on this pointless merry-go- round over something that you invoked only you know.
It’s not a pointless merry-go round, contextually speaking it’s a simple and clear enough question, you have no problem attempting to answer questions not directed toward you so how about you answer one that is

what was the reasoning behind the question?
#710
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@Tarik
how do you get to heaven ?
I don’t know
so how does "objective morality" help me get to heaven ?

how does "objective morality" help me make practical decisions ?
#711
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@Tarik
The idea that god has some kind of different mind is purely made up and devoid of any meaning.
Your arguments toward God are based on a regular human standard when God is by definition superhuman.
It does not matter whether god is “superhuman”, we’re talking about what objectivity and subjectivity mean. Invoking some vague notion of a mind superior to ours is not an argument, it’s a meaningless declaration. If you have no example of such a mind to base your statement on then you’re just making shit up because it sounds good to you. There is no conversation of value to be had there.

Making consistent arguments within a given standard doesn’t justify the logic behind the standard itself (all circles back to when I said subjective morality doesn’t make sense because you still have to justify that starting point)
This is literally what I’ve been arguing for weeks now.

The difference is that you claim your standard is objective which you have not because you cannot not justify. And the reason you cannot justify it is because it’s a logically incoherent statement.

In order for your claim to make sense it has to follow the laws of logic. But the laws of logic begin at the point at which a starting point (standard, premise) is invoked.

P1: All men are mortal
P2: Socrates is a man
C: Socrates is mortal

Logic has nothing to do with P1 & P2. Logic is what we use to connect P1 & P2 in order to reach C. Therefore the validity of this statement (which is what you need to teach it) is a separate issue from whether the statement is ultimately true. If we begin with “all men are immortal” then it logically follows that Socrates is immortal, even though that statement is false.

Morality is the same damn thing.

P1: Morality is that which aligns to God
P2: Action X aligns to God
C: Action X is moral

The conclusion logically follows which is what makes the conclusion objective. But the premises can easily be changed to “well being” instead of God and the conclusion would still be objectively reached.

Logic has nothing to do with where you begin, it only deals with how you reach the conclusion from the starting point. This is how everything in life works. Every conclusion you have ever drawn in your life has been based on premises you accept which could very well be false. To claim that the premises must be true in order for what follows to make sense is absurd.

We start with God, so any deviation is logically inconsistent because He created the standard and us.
No, you start with God because the idea that he should be the starting point is what you have decided in your subjective opinion.

Arguing that he “created the standard for us” is yet another meaningless and baseless assertion. Even granting that God is the creator of everything, that doesn’t mean his actions are moral unless your position is that “might = right”, something you have yet to clarify your position on.
#712
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@3RU7AL

so how does "objective morality" help me get to heaven ?

how does "objective morality" help me make practical decisions ?

Deuteronomy 11:26-28 sums it up like this: "Obey and you will be blessed. Disobey and you will be cursed." In the New Testament, we learn through the example of Jesus Christ that believers are called to a life of obedience.

#713
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@Shila
so how does "objective morality" help me get to heaven ?

how does "objective morality" help me make practical decisions ?
Deuteronomy 11:26-28 sums it up like this: "Obey and you will be blessed. Disobey and you will be cursed." In the New Testament, we learn through the example of Jesus Christ that believers are called to a life of obedience.
what am i supposed to "obey" ?

where are the "objective" and comprehensive moral guidelines ?
#714
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@3RU7AL
so how does "objective morality" help me get to heaven ?

how does "objective morality" help me make practical decisions ?
I don’t know

#715
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@Tarik
It’s not a pointless merry-go round, contextually speaking it’s a simple and clear enough question,


That's correct. As was my answer.
#716
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@Double_R
Logic has nothing to do with where you begin
It does if your asserting the beginning to be true, so when I said

But objective facts are right, a subjective opinion is neither right or wrong.
That was in reference to the beginning not the conclusion drawn from it.
#717
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@Stephen
That's correct. As was my answer.
What answer? You still haven’t answered my question

what was the reasoning behind the question?

#718
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@Tarik
what was the reasoning behind the question?

I cannot read your mind princess.

Why did you ask the question in the first place? Usually, people ask questions because they desire answers. 
#719
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@Tarik
so how does "objective morality" help me get to heaven ?

how does "objective morality" help me make practical decisions ?
I don’t know
so, FUNCTIONALLY each person needs to figure out FOR THEMSELVES what they believe is "right" and what is "wrong" ?
#720
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@3RU7AL
so, FUNCTIONALLY each person needs to figure out FOR THEMSELVES what they believe is "right" and what is "wrong" ?
If you are a Christian the Bible teaches you what is right and wrong.

If you are educated you can turn to moral philosophy. Moral philosophy is the branch of philosophy that contemplates what is right and wrong. It explores the nature of morality and examines how people should live their lives in relation to others.

But for most others like you needs to figure out FOR THEMSELVES what they believe is "right" and what is "wrong" ?