Atheism and humanism are completely contradictory

Author: Conservallectual

Posts

Total: 1,052
Shila
Shila's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 3,006
3
3
5
Shila's avatar
Shila
3
3
5
-->
@3RU7AL
--> @Tarik
i'm asking if "objective morality" can be applied to the real-world
Why are you asking me this?
because i'm trying to figure out

why it matters if morality is "objective"

in practical terms
It would mean morality is the same for everyone because it is objective.
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@Shila
because i'm trying to figure out

why it matters if morality is "objective"

in practical terms
It would mean morality is the same for everyone because it is objective.
where is the "one true standard" ?

is it perhaps written down somewhere ?
Shila
Shila's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 3,006
3
3
5
Shila's avatar
Shila
3
3
5
-->
@3RU7AL
--> @Shila
because i'm trying to figure out

why it matters if morality is "objective"

in practical terms
It would mean morality is the same for everyone because it is objective.
where is the "one true standard" ?

is it perhaps written down somewhere ?
It exist outside the mind existing in the real world.

OBJECTIVE meaning: 1 : based on facts rather than feelings or opinions not influenced by feelings; 2 : existing outside of the mind existing in the real world 

3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@Shila
It exist outside the mind existing in the real world.

OBJECTIVE meaning: 1 : based on facts rather than feelings or opinions not influenced by feelings; 2 : existing outside of the mind existing in the real world 
what are a few examples of "moral facts" ?

Sidewalker
Sidewalker's avatar
Debates: 8
Posts: 2,669
3
2
5
Sidewalker's avatar
Sidewalker
3
2
5
-->
@3RU7AL
I believe there is real mental or moral causality in the universe, and consequently, there is a moral dimension of reality that exists objectively, rather than subjectively.

Most everyone considers mathematical knowledge to be objective knowledge, and I believe, and can logically argue, that moral knowledge is objective in much the same way that mathematical knowledge is objective.  There are many objective facts that are based on human nature and so I believe that morality is grounded in human nature and is therefore objective, and as mentioned above, I do not believe that one needs to invoke God to make the case.

The caveat being recognition that morality is a matter of human conduct, it's about how human beings "ought" to act, so if by "Objective Morality" we mean morality that would exist independently of human beings, then I think that is a meaningless question. To question objective morality independently of human beings is to pose the question in the context of a reality in which logic, science, morality, reasoning, questions and arguments don’t exist.  The simple objective fact is that human beings experience a reality that includes values, purposes, and meanings. The very idea that these and related concepts such as morality can be evaluated in some kind of contrived context that is independent of human beings is meaningless.

If we understand objective knowledge to be knowledge based on observation of the real world, as is the case with objective scientific or mathematical knowledge, then I think that moral knowledge is also arrived at by observation and can be considered objective.
sounds great

what is your moral equivalent to 1 + 1 = 2 ?
If the question is how are mathematics and morality related in my argument...At some stage of human evolution, our ancestors developed a brain structure that gave them access to the mental world of mathematics.  It then became as much a part of their environment as were the physical environment in which they lived, and they did what animals do, they explored their environment, and what they did was discover the reality in which they lived. We can pontificate all day long as to whether or not that reality ontologically “exists” or is “real”, but the fact remains that it is a part of our realty, it is a feature of our experience and an aspect of the environment we explore.
The kind of consideration in the case of mathematical experience that led us to discover an enriched human environment applies equally to other distinctive forms of human ability. The human experience includes qualities, values, meaning, and purpose, and these ethical intuitions indicate the existence of a moral dimension of reality open to our exploration to discover further humanizing facts about the nature of the reality of our experience. 

Consequently, there is no reason that we cannot arrive at objective moral knowledge in the same way that we arrive at other types of objective knowledge, by the discernment of underlying principles which are then tested by examining how well those principles align with further observations of the world of our experience. 

The simple self-evident experiential reality of a human being is one that is imbued with qualities, values, meaning, and purpose, consequently it is reasonable to accept as fact that we are morally responsible causal agents. Therefore, it is by direct observation that we can conclude that there is real mental or moral causality in the universe, and from that, we can conclude that moral knowledge is objective knowledge.

Moral knowledge is objective because it is based on human nature, and what we observe about human nature is that we are self-transcending beings. When we gain access to a new rational dimension of reality, we immediately begin exploring that new dimension of our environment and go about discovering the unique aspects of that reality. In so doing, we transcend our previous state, and bring that new reality into being.  In the end, we are the creators of human nature, we define our nature by the choices we make.

By using the faculty of reason then, we can determine the way we ought to behave by simply accepting the responsibility that comes with the freedom to choose. By turning away from unresolvable and obfuscating intellectual constructs, and simply voting with our life by choosing to be responsible for how we ought to behave in recognition that objective morality is axiomatic in making a truly moral life possible.

Shila
Shila's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 3,006
3
3
5
Shila's avatar
Shila
3
3
5
-->
@3RU7AL
--> @Shila
It exist outside the mind existing in the real world.

OBJECTIVE meaning: 1 : based on facts rather than feelings or opinions not influenced by feelings; 2 : existing outside of the mind existing in the real world 
what are a few examples of "moral facts" ?
  • You shall have no other God's before me.
  • Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven images. ... 
  • Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain. ... 
  • Remember the Sabbath day and keep it Holy. ... 
  • Honor your father and mother. ... 
  • Thou shalt not kill. ... 
  • Thou shalt not commit adultery. ... 
  • Thou shalt not steal.
  • You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
  • You shall not covet.



3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@Sidewalker
by the discernment of underlying principles
please provide just a few examples of "moral axioms" ?
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@Sidewalker
 by choosing to be responsible for how we ought to behave
how do you "objectively" measure morality ?
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@Shila
  • You shall have no other God's before me.
  • Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven images. ... 
  • Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain. ... 
  • Remember the Sabbath day and keep it Holy. ... 
  • Honor your father and mother. ... 
  • Thou shalt not kill. ... 
  • Thou shalt not commit adultery. ... 
  • Thou shalt not steal.
  • You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
  • You shall not covet.
phenomenal, 100% true

but, how does this relate to practical matters like wickard v. filburn ?
Polytheist-Witch
Polytheist-Witch's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 4,188
3
3
6
Polytheist-Witch's avatar
Polytheist-Witch
3
3
6
So we've gone from a religious discussion to a philosophical discussion to a politics discussion and you wonder why we hate atheists in this forum.
Shila
Shila's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 3,006
3
3
5
Shila's avatar
Shila
3
3
5
-->
@3RU7AL
--> @Shila
  • You shall have no other God's before me.
  • Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven images. ... 
  • Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain. ... 
  • Remember the Sabbath day and keep it Holy. ... 
  • Honor your father and mother. ... 
  • Thou shalt not kill. ... 
  • Thou shalt not commit adultery. ... 
  • Thou shalt not steal.
  • You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
  • You shall not covet.
phenomenal, 100% true

but, how does this relate to practical matters like wickard v. filburn ?
Romans 13:1-2 says: "Obey the government, for God is the One who has put it there. There is no government anywhere that God has not placed in power. So those who refuse to obey the law of the land are refusing to obey God, and punishment will follow."
Sidewalker
Sidewalker's avatar
Debates: 8
Posts: 2,669
3
2
5
Sidewalker's avatar
Sidewalker
3
2
5
-->
@3RU7AL
by the discernment of underlying principles
please provide just a few examples of "moral axioms" ?
According to  Immanuel Kant (the other NOUMENON guy) the categorical imperitive is the basis underlying principle of Morality, "Act according to the maxim that you would wish all other rational people to follow, as if it were a universal law".   A few examples of his moral axioms are: 

  • One should always respect the humanity in others
  • One should only act in accordance with rules that could hold for everyone
  • Never treat a person as a means to an end.
He formulated the categorical imperitive four ways, I suppose thst is four examples of moral axioms:

The Formula of the Law of Nature: "Act as if the maxim of your action were to become through your will a universal law of nature."

The Formula of the End Itself: "Act in such a way that you always treat humanity, whether in your own person or in the person of any other, never simply as a means, but always at the same time as an end."

The Formula of Autonomy: "So act that your will can regard itself at the same time as making universal law through its maxims."

The Formula of the Kingdom of Ends: "So act as if you were through your maxims a law-making member of a kingdom of ends." 
:


 


Sidewalker
Sidewalker's avatar
Debates: 8
Posts: 2,669
3
2
5
Sidewalker's avatar
Sidewalker
3
2
5
-->
@3RU7AL
 by choosing to be responsible for how we ought to behave
how do you "objectively" measure morality ?
With a moral compass.
Tarik
Tarik's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 2,481
3
3
5
Tarik's avatar
Tarik
3
3
5
-->
@Double_R
“Not influenced by personal feelings” does not conflict with “being independent of the mind”. In fact the former is necessarily entailed in the latter;
Well if you actually read the whole post you would notice I put emphasis on

because you can’t consider and represent facts without a keyword MIND.

Tarik
Tarik's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 2,481
3
3
5
Tarik's avatar
Tarik
3
3
5
-->
@Shila
By following His commandments reassured Him he was being loved and respected. That made Him less jealous.
Jealous of what?
Double_R
Double_R's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 5,260
3
2
5
Double_R's avatar
Double_R
3
2
5
-->
@Tarik
“Not influenced by personal feelings” does not conflict with “being independent of the mind”. In fact the former is necessarily entailed in the latter;
Well if you actually read the whole post you would notice I put emphasis on

because you can’t consider and represent facts without a keyword MIND.
So you are now confusing the essence of an objective statement with the processing and recognition of the statement itself.
Tarik
Tarik's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 2,481
3
3
5
Tarik's avatar
Tarik
3
3
5
-->
@Stephen
Regardless.
There’s no regardless, context matters bro.

Tarik
Tarik's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 2,481
3
3
5
Tarik's avatar
Tarik
3
3
5
-->
@Shila
All gods are applicable to atheists. That includes the jealous God in the Bible.
Define atheist Shi.
Tarik
Tarik's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 2,481
3
3
5
Tarik's avatar
Tarik
3
3
5
-->
@3RU7AL
because i'm trying to figure out

why it matters if morality is "objective"

in practical terms
Can’t have it both ways dude.
Tarik
Tarik's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 2,481
3
3
5
Tarik's avatar
Tarik
3
3
5
-->
@Double_R
So you are now confusing the essence of an objective statement with the processing and recognition of the statement itself.
No, they’re both demonstrating objectivity hence why in the definition it said (of a person or their judgment) meaning you can judge objectively but you can’t do it without a keyword mind, which is exactly what God did when He defined morality (I love how you only want to use definitions when you think it suits your narrative). Lastly objectivity doesn’t necessarily have to come in the form of a statement.
Shila
Shila's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 3,006
3
3
5
Shila's avatar
Shila
3
3
5
-->
@Tarik

--> @Shila
All gods are applicable to atheists. That includes the jealous God in the Bible.
Define atheist Shi.

Atheist definition: a person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods.
That includes all gods including the jealous God in the Bible.

Tarik
Tarik's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 2,481
3
3
5
Tarik's avatar
Tarik
3
3
5
-->
@Shila
That includes all gods including the jealous God in the Bible.
Now define jealous.
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,615
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@Tarik
For the Lord your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God.
What is He jealous of?

Other gods. Exodus 34:14Other gods. 
Other Gods aren’t applicable to atheists.
Regardless. You asked question about god and you had your answer from the horse's mouth. 

Exodus 34:14  Do not worship any other god, for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.

Interesting that this jealous god acknowledges that other gods existed in his time. something else Christians are at pains to deny.
There’s no regardless, context matters bro.

There is nothing to misunderstand or take out of context. Your god makes it clear why he is a jealous god whom it is that he jealous of.  And it is beside the point whether I am an atheist or not. Those are his words written in your bible, are they not.

Tarik
Tarik's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 2,481
3
3
5
Tarik's avatar
Tarik
3
3
5
-->
@Stephen
@Shila
And it is beside the point whether I am an atheist or not.
Originally the jealous discussion didn’t even involve you so I’m not sure you know what the point even is, or why Shila brought it up. When I asked what is He jealous of I was asking in the context of the atheists perspective since that is what was talked about but you would know that if you were following along closely rather than joining late and acting like you know more than the parties involved.
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@Polytheist-Witch
So we've gone from a religious discussion to a philosophical discussion to a politics discussion and you wonder why we hate atheists in this forum.
complain to whoever opened this topic about ATHEISM AND HUMANISM
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@Shila
Romans 13:1-2 says: "Obey the government, for God is the One who has put it there. There is no government anywhere that God has not placed in power. So those who refuse to obey the law of the land are refusing to obey God, and punishment will follow."
including vladimir putin ?
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@Sidewalker
  • One should always respect the humanity in others
  • One should only act in accordance with rules that could hold for everyone
  • Never treat a person as a means to an end.
that is not very specific

"respect" seems rather subjective

"rules that could hold for everyone" needs massive clarification

"never treat a person as a means to an end" - so, i shouldn't expect a grocery store clerk to facilitate my purchase of goods ?

this seems impractical
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@Sidewalker
how do you "objectively" measure morality ?
With a moral compass.
where can i buy one of these

and where can i get it calibrated ?
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@Tarik
because i'm trying to figure out

why it matters if morality is "objective"

in practical terms
Can’t have it both ways dude.
so i can't have "objective morality" and also KNOW WHAT THE RULES ARE ?
Tarik
Tarik's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 2,481
3
3
5
Tarik's avatar
Tarik
3
3
5
-->
@3RU7AL
so i can't have "objective morality" and also KNOW WHAT THE RULES ARE ?
That’s not the same as calling the rules impractical, that judgement call is based off knowing.