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@zedvictor4
Because true nihilists would have long since topped themselves.
please explain
Atheism and humanism are completely contradictory
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@Tarik
More specifically we’re talking about morality a notion (which I’ve already stated) nihilists reject.
They reject it on completely different grounds so this point is irrelevant. Once again, nihilists reject morality as meaningless. We’re talking about whether morality is objective. These are not the same conversation. At all.
Again, what is a moral standard? You can’t include the word itself in the definition, how helpful would that be?
My god dude. I’ve already explained this. Multiple times. In depth.
Moral standard is a phrase, not a definition.
It is the thing you are measuring everything else against in order to determine whether something is moral.
The word “moral” in “moral standard” is not a description of the standard, it’s telling you what the standard applies to. It means “standard for morality”.
It’s just a phrase.
What is so difficult about this?
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@Double_R
What is so difficult about this?
because there is only one possible "moral standard"
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@Double_R
They reject it on completely different grounds so this point is irrelevant. Once again, nihilists reject morality as meaningless. We’re talking about whether morality is objective.
Well in order for morality to be objective it must have MEANING right?
Moral standard is a phrase, not a definition.
Nonetheless a definition is what I asked for, so you can keep your “phrase” or define that too while you’re at it.
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@Tarik
Well in order for morality to be objective it must have MEANING right?
No.
If morality is objective, then that means any given action is or is not moral regardless of what anyone thinks about it.
Meaning is necessarily the product of a thinking mind.
These are two logically contradictory ideas.
Nonetheless a definition is what I asked for, so you can keep your “phrase” or define that too while you’re at it.
I’ve already provided you a definition. What is so difficult about this?
Morality is a system by which we judge actions as right or wrong.
We judge those actions against a core standard (aka a moral standard).
That standard is chosen by the individual doing the judging, making any such determination necessarily subjective.
The challenge and goal is therefore to agree on a set of core standards. Those standards reflect our values. Because we have most of the same basic aspirations (self preservation, liberty, prosperity, etc.) core values are generally not that hard to agree upon, which is what allows us to live together, work together, and prosper together as a society.
This is really basic stuff. If you still do not understand what I’m telling you then that is by choice.
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@Double_R
Meaning is necessarily the product of a thinking mind.
Except nihilists have a thinking mind and they still reject it, how do you explain that?
Morality is a system by which we judge actions as right or wrong.
To claim something is subjective is to claim that there is no right or wrong answer.
In the words of you
These are two logically contradictory ideas.
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@3RU7AL
Nihilists think that they believe something.
Or is it, believe that they think something.
Though nihilism is generally nothing more than a fleeting philosophical concept.
A person howsoever labelled, still gets up in the morning and motivates themselves to do stuff.
Why would a true nihilist even bother to do that?
Because nihilism isn't an inherent condition.
Survival is the inherent norm and survival gives us purpose.
Nihilism is just intellectual fluff.
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@Shila
Nice and fluffy.
But tosh.
Are you a JW.
Where the Lion lays down with the Lamb.
And we feed our pet Lion with plant-based protein.
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@Tarik
Except nihilists have a thinking mind and they still reject it, how do you explain that?
A thinking mind is required in order to recognize what morality is and determine whether it has any meaning.
Nihilists use their thinking minds to determine it has no meaning to them.
What about that do you think needs explaining?
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@Tarik
To claim something is subjective is to claim that there is no right or wrong answer.In the words of you
What do you think subjective means? Seriously, define it. Don’t Google and quote a dictionary definition. Explain what, in your mind, the word means.
Thank you, the management.
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@Double_R
Nihilists use their thinking minds to determine it has no meaning to them.
Why do you put emphasis on this “meaningless” point anyway since when does anybody reject anything they find meaningful? The meaningless argument should already be a given, before you said
They reject it on completely different grounds so this point is irrelevant.
And went on to use the “meaningless” argument, but like I already said that’s already implied in the rejection so what other grounds is there and why is that relevant? Fact of the matter is they reject it and that’s all there is to it.
What do you think subjective means?
A concept or notion with no facts attached, but I don’t know why you’re asking me this because last time you completely yanked my chain by dismissing my answer saying something along the lines of “that’s what it means to you” not a retort in the slightest and a complete waste of time, so now the spotlights on you and no I haven’t deliberately dismissed your definitions as false just vague to the point of necessary elaboration.
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@Double_R
Meaning is necessarily the product of a thinking mind.
exactly
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@zedvictor4
A person howsoever labelled, still gets up in the morning and motivates themselves to do stuff.Why would a true nihilist even bother to do that?Because nihilism isn't an inherent condition.Survival is the inherent norm and survival gives us purpose.Nihilism is just intellectual fluff.
a nihilist strips away every shred of unnecessary "meaningfulness"
and this leaves them free to focus on what can't be stripped away
survival instinct is just the starting point
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@Tarik
Why do you put emphasis on this “meaningless” point anyway since when does anybody reject anything they find meaningful?
I put emphasis on the meaningless point because that’s literally what a nihilist is which you injected into this conversation despite its irrelevance, so I’m explaining what it is about nihilism that makes it irrelevant.
You are applying a double meaning to the word “reject” and fallaciously using it interchangeably.
I reject your premise “morality is objective” as a false statement. That’s about logic, not meaning.
The concept of meaning has no place in this conversation. If you are claiming something is objective then it must also be, in theory, objectively verifiable. 2+2=4 is objectively verifiable; I can put two marbles on a table, put two more marbles next to them, then count them to show that we now have four marbles. Whether that experiment has any meaning to you is a completely different conversation.
Objectively verify that it is wrong to steal. Show me what facts are attached to that statement.
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@Double_R
The concept of meaning has no place in this conversation. If you are claiming something is objective then it must also be, in theory, objectively verifiable. 2+2=4 is objectively verifiable
well stated
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@Double_R
I reject your premise “morality is objective” as a false statement. That’s about logic, not meaning.
Oh the contrary, it’s about both because there’s nothing meaningful about false statements, therefore there meaningless.
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@zedvictor4
--> @ShilaNice and fluffy.But tosh.Are you a JW.Where the Lion lays down with the Lamb.And we feed our pet Lion with plant-based protein
I was raised Anglican.
What do Anglicans Believe?
I love that the two most popular topics in this forum are about atheists and humanism neither which is a fucking religion.
Polytheist-Witch: I love that the two most popular topics in this forum are about atheists and humanism neither which is a fucking religion.
Took you a while to figure that out.
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@Tarik
I reject your premise “morality is objective” as a false statement. That’s about logic, not meaning.Oh the contrary, it’s about both because there’s nothing meaningful about false statements, therefore there meaningless.
Is the truth value of 2+2=4 dependent on whether one considers the statement to have meaning? Yes or no?
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@Double_R
Is the truth value of 2+2=4 dependent on whether one considers the statement to have meaning? Yes or no?
No, but that wasn’t the narrative when the subject of nihilism was originally introduced. Let’s recap, originally you said
To claim something is subjective is to claim that there is no right or wrong answer.
My retort to that was that’s the literal definition of nihilism because they too don’t believe in right or wrong answers, now you’re saying peoples opinions have no bearing on objectivity which I agree but that wasn’t the original narrative, the narrative was what nihilism was not whether or not it was true.
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@Tarik
--> @Double_RIs the truth value of 2+2=4 dependent on whether one considers the statement to have meaning? Yes or no?No but that wasn’t the narrative when the subject of nihilism was originally introduced. Let’s recap, originally you saidTo claim something is subjective is to claim that there is no right or wrong answer.My retort to that was that was the literal definition of nihilism because they too don’t believe in right or wrong answers, now you’re saying peoples opinions have no bearing on objectivity which I agree but that wasn’t the original narrative, the narrative was what nihilism was not whether or not it was true.
Why are you continuing to argue about something that you know does not have a right or wrong answer?
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@Double_R
@Shila
Why are you continuing to argue about something that you know does not have a right or wrong answer?
Maybe you should ask Double_R that question since that was his argument you highlighted not mine.
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@Tarik
-->@Double_R@ShilaWhy are you continuing to argue about something that you know does not have a right or wrong answer?Tarik: Maybe you should ask Double_R that question since that was his argument you highlighted not mine.
You were asked the question because you raised the issue about not having MEANING.
Tarik: Well in order for morality to be objective it must have MEANING right?
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@Double_R
@Shila
You were asked the question because you raised the issue about not having MEANING.
Tarik: Well in order for morality to be objective it must have MEANING right?
Check again sir the word “not” was never used in my quote meaning the claim your accusing me of is indeed the opposite.
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@3RU7AL
A nihilist sips their coffee and thinks fluff.
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@Shila
Belief is fantasy by definition.
@Poly
Is pornography a "fucking religion"?
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@Tarik
My retort to that was that’s the literal definition of nihilism because they too don’t believe in right or wrong answers, now you’re saying peoples opinions have no bearing on objectivity which I agree but that wasn’t the original narrative, the narrative was what nihilism was not whether or not it was true.
My position has always been that objectivity was not subject to anyone’s opinions. It never changed and if you thought it was ever anything else that’s because you were making it up.
Your argument on nihilism is just one big false equivocation. Essentially, if the definition of nihilism includes no right or wrong answer, and the definition of subjective includes no right or wrong answer, then they are both the same.
This is absurdly false and I’ve already explained why multiple times.
Nihilists don’t believe in right or wrong because morality has no meaning to them. In other words, they don’t care.
In subjectivity there is no right or wrong answer because the answer is subject to the individual.
If you can’t tell the difference between these two things you have serious issues. This is like claiming the guy who pushed the old lady to the ground for fun and the guy who pushed the old lady to the ground to move her out of the way of an oncoming bus are the same because they both pushed an old lady to the ground.