What have you changed your mind about?

Author: Yassine

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#31
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@Incel-chud
I have. I usually don't admit it when it happens and just continue to argue, but you have changed my mind about a lot. 
- Care to share examples? What factor(s) made you change your mind?


The one thing that annoys me about you is you Don't give straight answers on fruits. Should being a homo be tolerated? My vote is no. You always dodge this yes or no question though.
- You could've just asked... Though I get why my position on fruits could be confusing, maybe I'll make a thread about this. I can summarize my view -or rather the Islamic view- on this in the following:
  • Morally: homosexual thoughts are not a sin, as we are not accountable for our thoughts; homosexual desires may be a sin if with determination to act; homosexual acts are a sin. Sodomy in particular is a major sin, one of the Ten Sins (Kabayir), alongside Shirk, murder, adultery, perjury...etc. Lesbian acts are less evil, some ulama even deemed such acts permissible if done in the need to avoid fornication -though that's an aberrant (invalid) opinion. 
  • Legally: although homosexuality itself is legally inconsequent, public sodomy is punishable by Sharia, though the penalty differs according to the Mathhab (school of thought). Maliki (& its offshoots) equate between sodomy & adultery, thus the penalty is lashing for virgins & stoning for the married. Hanafi sees sodomy as a public decency crime, requiring discretionary penalty. Private sodomy or lesbianism, however, must stay absolutely private; else, discretionary penalties or legal consequences may incur. Accusing someone of sodomy without proof (4 righteous witnesses) is punishable by 80 lashes.
  • Judicially: homosexual acts without the jurisdiction of Sharia (i.e. Muslims under Islamic rule) are inconsequent. On one hand, Sharia recognizes the morality of other belief systems in its territory, even if against its own. Hence, alcohol trade was allowed among Christians under Islamic rule & incestuous self-marriages (daughter-father, sister-brother...) were allowed among Zoroastrians then as well. On the other, it matters not to Sharia what non-Muslims under foreign laws do or don't, nor should Muslims interfere unless to prevent harm on themselves, their faith, property, honor, or lineage. – This is probably why I seem nonchalant about LGBT shit in the West, as long as none of it makes it to the Muslim world.
  • Socially: pious homosexuals must be respected & treated as any other pious Muslim; open homosexuals are, hence, fasiq (lewd) & should be reprimanded -they also may not lead prayers & their testimony is deficient; former sodomites can not lead prayers either, even if they repent & become pious (according to majority opinion). Sharia allows women to not cover their idle bodies in front of homos, & bans name-calling others with such names as "faggot" (& similar designation).
  • Psychologically: views on homosexuality in the Islamic tradition vary, but also harmonize. Imam Nawawi considers that every person has the potential to be gay with enough societal incentive. He draws this conclusion from the prophecy of the beloved Muhammed (pbuh) about the end of time, that "men will marry men and women will marry women", & especially based on the fact that all acts, no matter how anti-nature, can become normalized once destigmatized, including sodomy. Indeed, some of the most repulsive human actions can be found normalized somewhere (sodomy included). For instance, infanticide among pre-Islamic Arabs, sodomy in biblical Sodom, murder among Vikings, incest amongst Zoroastrians, pedophilia among ancient Greeks...etc. Imam Suyuti, having himself dealt with & treated trans, he had a different -albeit complementary- take. He postulates that masculinity is always attracted to femininity, & that adult sexual perversion arises from childhood experience, which creates a deviation in the expression of this attraction. Observing that feminine lesbians seek masculine women, & masculine sodomites seek young feminine looking boys...etc.

I feel like you are here to spread a positive message about Islam, or at least what most westerners consider positive as opposed to having an honest discussion. 
- Whatever gave you that impression? – I'm a hardcore traditional Muslim, I follow the Mathhabs (traditional schools) to the letter. I don't have an opinion one way or another about the faith or its applications, other than the opinions of the traditional Mathhabs. I merely relay what I was taught. If your impression is that these schools teach positive things, then I'm glad. 


Despite this holding back of honesty, I have found your words very informative and enlightening. 
- Thanks! I may get argumentative, but I always seek honest discussion. I don't believe in hiding differences to create "harmony", only full blown firm expression of beliefs can reach any real understanding & truth between people. – Do you any examples?


Penguin makes an English version of the Koran that is pretty well translated. So accurately translated, that Muslims hate the penguin version. 
- I checked that translation, it's pretty inaccurate to say the least. What else can you expect from a Jew translating the holy book of an adversary faith. 
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#32
Yassine
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@zedvictor4
What is an atheist?

Well.....As defined for sure.

But ideology is a brain held data state which we can all share, and the differences are negligible.

It's output and actions that vary.


I don't accept the principles of naive religions....They're outdated.

So I look to now and the past for clues, in relation to what might occur in the future.

It's all only supposition, just as old religions once were.

And material evolution is  key.

The ongoing developmental process of matter from the universal beginning to a universal end.

We're now within a technological phase of material evolution.....A crossover phase perhaps, from the organically inspired to the Alternatively Inspired.
- This sounds a lot like Japan in the 80s.


Maybe the GOD principle is that which will determine the outcome of a distant universal end phase.

And given the predicted time frame, who knows if we can hang on for that long.

And what's the purpose of the GOD principle?

So that everything can happen all over again.
- Where do you get these weird ideas?


#33
Incel-chud
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@Yassine
 I checked that translation, it's pretty inaccurate to say the least. What else can you expect from a Jew translating the holy book of an adversary faith. 

Fucking jews, am I right?
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#34
Yassine
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@oromagi
Little faith and poor devotion, yes.
- Are you a secular catholic?


theophany
- So you don't have conviction & trust in the truth of your faith?


I have faith in my friends and family.  I would sooner die for them then see them harmed for my benefit.  I could not sell out my family and continue.  So...I guess the answer is no.
If you mean could I pretend to be a Protestant or Muslim or deny my Roman Catholicism  for a day for cash or increased safety, I think the answer is yes- past a certain value point.
- This doesn't sound good coming from a person of faith, friends more important than God! Damn! – I meant, would you renounce your faith with sufficient incentive?


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#35
Yassine
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@Incel-chud
Fucking jews, am I right?
- J-ews... Though great prophets & kinds were Jew, including your god. But it's curious, why would I a Jew bother translating the Quran unless for ideological reasons.

#36
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@Yassine
Because he was paid money and is an academic capable of the job. You could just as easily say Muslims hate the translation because it is the most accurate one and gives away their plans
#37
Polytheist-Witch
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What kind of interaction? Does this have anything to do with psychedelics?
No. I don't use drugs of any kind.

What is it you intent by a god? What makes you think they are gods, maybe they are spirits or angels or just illusions?
God is a title that's been granted to certain beings. Most spirits don't call themselves anything but a spirit and angels definitely don't call themselves anything but an angel. Most gods don't call themselves gods they just usually have a name and they'll tell you their name.

 Where do you get these rituals? Do you follow a religion
As I said I worship in the German / Norse Pantheon. There are a couple of writings that have rituals in them but most of the time they're either made up by myself or I've gotten them from books or other resources like people who have been practicing longer than I have. Honestly as a solitary just kind of end up doing whatever you throw together or whatever you feel right about doing.
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#38
Yassine
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@Incel-chud
Because he was paid money and is an academic capable of the job. You could just as easily say Muslims hate the translation because it is the most accurate one
- You couldn't say that, the original Quran is still here. When you see the Arabic say one thing & the translation say a completely different thing, based on a particular interpretation or just plain word twists, it's simply the furthest from accurate. Also, there is no sense to a non-practitioner translating a book. Would you trust a Muslim translation of the Bible?


and gives away their plans
- I sure hope it does! Ultimately, the translation "gives away" what the translator believes the text means. Regardless, the translated Quran has no authority in the tradition. From a legal perspective, traditional jurists generally prohibited the translation of the whole Quran, as some verses which can not be interpreted would inevitable be once translated. Such as "God 'istawa ala' the Throne", 'istawa' can mean 'dominate', 'complete'... but most translation, since they are either done by or funded by Salafis, translate it as "God sit on the Throne", because Salafis are anthropomorphist. 

#39
oromagi
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@Yassine

- Are you a secular catholic?
I'll accept that.

So you don't have conviction & trust in the truth of your faith?
I have absolute conviction and trust in the truth of my faith.  Faith is a conviction in the absence of evidence.   As I said before, all my faith is in friends and family and none is wasted  on unprovable assertions about the origin and dominion of the universe by alien superbeing(s).  I did not witness Moses part the Red Sea nor Muhammed's ascent to heaven nor Jesus' return from the dead and the testimonies I read of such events bear remarkable resemblance to hundreds of similar assertions in world literature that are easily dismissed as myth or fiction.  While I find the subject an interesting and worthwhile study, I try not to pretend I know for a fact those claims I don't or can't know for a fact.  I think the Sermon on the Mount is a terrific, concise ethical lesson to be admired.  I think Jesus' resurrection is unlikely but also unimportant to the value of that  lesson. I also suppose (without evidence) that the Jesus I read about in the Bible would have little problem with that outlook.   I think Roman Catholicism and modern Western Christianity generally represents more of the philosophy of Paul and Augustine and rather misunderstands Jesus' thesis.

This doesn't sound good coming from a person of faith, friends more important than God! Damn! –
Absolutely and what's more my faith is greater because it is tested by everyday life.  I put Jesus' second commandment forward as foundational for human society but I cannot love what I  have never met and am not permitted  to understand and so I set aside Jesus' first commandment as impracticable.

I meant, would you renounce your faith with sufficient incentive?
I have already answered no.

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#40
Yassine
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@Polytheist-Witch
No. I don't use drugs of any kind.
- Then how did these interactions happen?


God is a title that's been granted to certain beings. Most spirits don't call themselves anything but a spirit and angels definitely don't call themselves anything but an angel. Most gods don't call themselves gods they just usually have a name and they'll tell you their name.
- So, how exactly do you differentiate between spirits angels & gods? What's the criteria?


As I said I worship in the German / Norse Pantheon. There are a couple of writings that have rituals in them but most of the time they're either made up by myself or I've gotten them from books or other resources like people who have been practicing longer than I have. Honestly as a solitary just kind of end up doing whatever you throw together or whatever you feel right about doing.
- Do you have a purpose in doing these things? Does it give you any fulfillment? How strong is your faith in the Pantheon? So you believe in the Odin paradise & martyr glory?

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#41
Yassine
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@oromagi
I'll accept that.
- Do you still believe in God or are you agnostic? I've met secular catholics in France, it was very strangest to me they believe Jesus is the greatest thing yet don't believe in God!


I have absolute conviction and trust in the truth of my faith.  Faith is a conviction in the absence of evidence.   As I said before, all my faith is in friends and family and none is wasted  on unprovable assertions about the origin and dominion of the universe by alien superbeing(s).
- I'm really just asking about your faith in Christianity.


I did not witness Moses part the Red Sea nor Muhammed's ascent to heaven nor Jesus' return from the dead and the testimonies I read of such events bear remarkable resemblance to hundreds of similar assertions in world literature that are easily dismissed as myth or fiction.
- I agree this applies to Biblical accounts, but it isn't true for the miracles of Prophet Muhammed (pbuh).


While I find the subject an interesting and worthwhile study, I try not to pretend I know for a fact those claims I don't or can't know for a fact.  I think the Sermon on the Mount is a terrific, concise ethical lesson to be admired.  I think Jesus' resurrection is unlikely but also unimportant to the value of that  lesson. I also suppose (without evidence) that the Jesus I read about in the Bible would have little problem with that outlook.
- They'd probably excommunicate you if they find out you hold these beliefs...


  I think Roman Catholicism and modern Western Christianity generally represents more of the philosophy of Paul and Augustine and rather misunderstands Jesus' thesis.
- I actually agree here, also true for the rest of Christian denominations a. The Jamesian Christianity (Jewish early Christianity) practiced by the early Christian sects, like the Ebionites, Nazarenes, Nastorians... has long gone extinct, replaced thus by Pauline Christianity led by the Orthodox Church & the Catholic Church.


Absolutely and what's more my faith is greater because it is tested by everyday life.  I put Jesus' second commandment forward as foundational for human society but I cannot love what I  have never met and am not permitted  to understand and so I set aside Jesus' first commandment as impracticable.
- Do you believe in Heaven & Hell?


I have already answered no.
- I meant Catholicism, not your friends.


#42
Incel-chud
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@Yassine
Also, there is no sense to a non-practitioner translating a book. Would you trust a Muslim translation of the Bible?

Bible translations are done by massive teams of translators who are a mix of belief systems including Christian Jewish and atheist. 

The correct interpretation is what we are after, not the spin of ideologues. The jew you are speaking about loved the Koran and was only interested in accuracy. The mistakes I have seen pointed out by Muslims are things like "he sad man, when it should say everyone" Perhaps from non native English speakers that Don't know in the lot of contexts man means the same thing as "everyone ". Another criticism I read was another petty issue about the translator saying something along the lines of "don't doubt the koran" and they said it should say "no doubts within the Koran" which literally means the exact same thing, but the first sentence is easier to  understand.

These are stupid criticisms, tbh
#43
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@Yassine

- Do you still believe in God or are you agnostic?
I'll accept agnosticism as well.  I try not to swear  too much allegiance to the labels of the intellectuals.

I'm really just asking about your faith in Christianity.
As I've said, my culture, my education, my ethical framework are inescapably Christian.  But I do not trust any religious tenant as true without first being convinced by the evidence and so my faith is not Christian.

agree this applies to Biblical accounts, but it isn't true for the miracles of Prophet Muhammed (pbuh).
As if the evidence for one is any sounder than the evidence for another.

They'd probably excommunicate you if they find out you hold these beliefs...
Some popes, maybe but not this Pope.  Both Francis and I were schooled by Jesuits, the modern Liberal society at the heart of the Age of Enlightenment and Democratic revolution.  Jesuits promote the brotherhood of man and the importance of good works over the importance of strict adherence to doctrine.  I think you'd be shocked how many openly atheist priests reside in the precincts of the Vatican.

Here is the Pope assuring a bereaved boy that his non-believing father would be welcomed in heaven:  https://youtu.be/xL01jmT0MN4

I suppose that Francis is mostly OK with my conception of Catholicism and faith.
replaced thus by Pauline Christianity led by the Orthodox Church & the Catholic Church.
When Paul says (beautifully) :

For now we see through a glass, darkly;
but then face to face:
now I know in part;
but then shall I know even as also I am known.
And now abideth faith, hope, love, these three;
but the greatest of these is love.

Even Paul put love before faith.  

Do you believe in Heaven & Hell?
What compassionate God would create a hell for his children or withhold a heaven?  If God is compassionate than such realms must not exist.  If God is not compassionate than he does not merit my faith.

I meant Catholicism, not your friends.
And still I have already answered.

#44
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@Yassine
- I've been arguing with you lot about faith, mostly Islam, for a while now. I'm curious, have any of you changed your mind or revised your views about the religion or any topic regarding Islam after our exchanges. If so, what topic? Why? Or why not? 

- Also, what other faith related views have you discarded or adopted in general during your time on this Forum? & why? 

- What factors contribute most to your evolving opinions? Emotional? Intellectual? Popular?...
I no longer believe in evolution now. 

The factors that contributed to the change were probably emotional/faith

Though I still don’t know how animals popped out of nothing. Is it like spontaneous generation?  
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#45
Yassine
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@Incel-chud
Bible translations are done by massive teams of translators who are a mix of belief systems including Christian Jewish and atheist. 
- Is this supposed to be a joke or are you actually serious...? I know a lot more about Biblical scholarship & literature than you think. Bible translations are denominational. Also, Jewish translations of the -Hebrew- Bible are vastly different from those done by Christians, especially on key doctrinal issues. I doubt you'd even consider a Jewish or secular translation of your Bible, as that would simply obliterate your faith.


The correct interpretation is what we are after, not the spin of ideologues.
- Like how Christians love to mistranslate 'theos'?


The jew you are speaking about loved the Koran
- Not enough.


and was only interested in accuracy.
- According to his biases, maybe.


The mistakes I have seen pointed out by Muslims are things like "he sad man, when it should say everyone" Perhaps from non native English speakers that Don't know in the lot of contexts man means the same thing as "everyone ". Another criticism I read was another petty issue about the translator saying something along the lines of "don't doubt the koran" and they said it should say "no doubts within the Koran" which literally means the exact same thing, but the first sentence is easier to  understand.
- It's a lot worse than that. But why are you so adamant to defend a Jew's translation of the Quran instead of just adopting more accurate mainstream Muslim translations? There are also Christian translations of the Quran, I'm sure you'll like those even more.


These are stupid criticisms, tbh
- Doesn't change anything about the gross inaccuracy of the translation. Going back to OP, what made you change your mind? On what? Also, deep down, what makes you really believe? What would it take for you to change your beliefs?

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#46
Yassine
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@oromagi

- Do you still believe in God or are you agnostic?
I'll accept agnosticism as well.  I try not to swear  too much allegiance to the labels of the intellectuals.


I'm really just asking about your faith in Christianity.
As I've said, my culture, my education, my ethical framework are inescapably Christian.  But I do not trust any religious tenant as true without first being convinced by the evidence and so my faith is not Christian.


As if the evidence for one is any sounder than the evidence for another.
- Yes it is. Lack of evidence for one, does not entail lack of evidence for another..


Some popes, maybe but not this Pope.  Both Francis and I were schooled by Jesuits, the modern Liberal society at the heart of the Age of Enlightenment and Democratic revolution.  Jesuits promote the brotherhood of man and the importance of good works over the importance of strict adherence to doctrine.  I think you'd be shocked how many openly atheist priests reside in the precincts of the Vatican.
- Atheist priests in the Vatican... huh! Christianity is dying out into a shell religion.


Here is the Pope assuring a bereaved boy that his non-believing father would be welcomed in heaven:  https://youtu.be/xL01jmT0MN4 I suppose that Francis is mostly OK with my conception of Catholicism and faith.
- Apparently... Why bother believe then!


When Paul says (beautifully) :

For now we see through a glass, darkly;
but then face to face:
now I know in part;
but then shall I know even as also I am known.
And now abideth faith, hope, love, these three;
but the greatest of these is love.

Even Paul put love before faith.  
- Obviously he meant divine love.


What compassionate God would create a hell for his children or withhold a heaven?  If God is compassionate than such realms must not exist.  If God is not compassionate than he does not merit my faith.
- Why does a compassionate God imply non-existence of Heave & Hell? If faith in God is contingent on compassion, doesn't that make God contingent on compassion, thus not actually God?




#47
Incel-chud
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@Yassine
I doubt you'd even consider a Jewish or secular translation of your Bible, as that would simply obliterate your faith.
It would literally be the same thing LOL,

When I translate German to English, I don't do so based on my belief, I literally just swap the German words for english ones. I know German, Spanish and English. and I can tell you, you pretty much just swap words. It doesn't matter if I am translating religious work or political beliefs I disagree with. It's going to be the same translation either way. Facts are facts

- Doesn't change anything about the gross inaccuracy of the translation. Going back to OP, what made you change your mind? On what? Also, deep down, what makes you really believe? What would it take for you to change your beliefs?
I can't think of something specific, but it made me think the Koran is not necessarily a violent book, just because some Muslims interpret it that way.

What makes me believe in God, is a feeling. I was a lifelong atheist, though I was raised in a Christian household. At about 37 I just started to believe. Like something was implanted in me. I had some spiritual things I experienced in the past as well, I tried to reason my way out of.

If you are asking, what it would take to make me Muslim, I'd have to know that Muhammad was not a mere cult leader. I would have to know, the man was sane, was honest and that his words really came from God.
#48
Incel-chud
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@oromagi
What compassionate God would create a hell for his children or withhold a heaven?  If God is compassionate than such realms must not exist.  If God is not compassionate than he does not merit my faith.
He merits your faith whether he is compassionate or not. Even if he were evil, he would merit it. You are merely human and cannot possibly comprehend his morality in any sane way.

Hell is not a biblical concept, it is bullshit made up because it gets butts in seats. He doess not withold heaven from anybody. It's your freewill . You decide whether you go or not. If you die without taking the steps, you won't go to hell though. It's my personal belief you can get redemption after death, but even if you can't  the fire and brimstone message is wrong.  The Jews have no concept of hell, and when you get into the new testament, the closest thing you get is satan at the end times, being thrown into the lake of fire.

I assume, you know how to get to heaven, but if you don't. Here you go

John 3:16


New International Version



16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

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#49
Yassine
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@Reece101
I no longer believe in evolution now. 
- Interesting! I remember having a long conversation with you about that myth. What changed your mind about it?


The factors that contributed to the change were probably emotional/faith
- Any specifics?


Though I still don’t know how animals popped out of nothing. Is it like spontaneous generation?  
- Same as everybody else, nobody knows. The evolutionationists pretend to know & act like astrologers & tell us about inexistent connections.

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#50
Yassine
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@Incel-chud
It would literally be the same thing LOL,
- You must not have read a Jewish Hebrew Bible then...


When I translate German to English, I don't do so based on my belief, I literally just swap the German words for english ones. I know German, Spanish and English. and I can tell you, you pretty much just swap words. It doesn't matter if I am translating religious work or political beliefs I disagree with. It's going to be the same translation either way. Facts are facts.
- Do you know a bit about Biblical scholarship?


I can't think of something specific, but it made me think the Koran is not necessarily a violent book, just because some Muslims interpret it that way.
- I'm actually curious, what was the turning point? 


What makes me believe in God, is a feeling. I was a lifelong atheist, though I was raised in a Christian household. At about 37 I just started to believe. Like something was implanted in me. I had some spiritual things I experienced in the past as well, I tried to reason my way out of.
- How did you lose your faith the first time? Was the change emotionally driven or intellectually driven? 


If you are asking, what it would take to make me Muslim, I'd have to know that Muhammad was not a mere cult leader. I would have to know, the man was sane, was honest and that his words really came from God.
- You can read his biography, though obviously not from Christian sources. Would you be interested in a debate about the beloved Prophet Muhammed (pbuh)? 
#51
Polytheist-Witch
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@Yassine
So you believe in the Odin paradise & martyr glory.
It's part of Norse myth. He doesn't have a hall in Germanic myth. There are several different afterlife places in Germanic and Norse mythology. The Viking were a small portion of worshipers. They also didn't go out and kill people for Odin. They hope to die in battle to go to Valhalla or Freya's Hall. She actually gets first pick of the war dead. They generally leave that out of all the movies.


#52
Reece101
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@Yassine
- Interesting! I remember having a long conversation with you about that myth. What changed your mind about it?
Just you walking me through it.

- Any specifics?
I can’t say I can point to any specifics. You know how it is. Gradual changes.

- Same as everybody else, nobody knows. The evolutionationists pretend to know & act like astrologers & tell us about inexistent connections.
Like DNA. For all they know Allah designed it. Those damn geneticists telling us who we’re related to. First it was our family, now it’s animals? Don’t make me laugh. I’m not related to a monkey, we look nothing alike.
#53
Incel-chud
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@Yassine
How did you lose your faith the first time? Was the change emotionally driven or intellectually driven? 

A bit of both. As a kid I studied the bibble very hard. Reading it over and over, and taking it very literally. It affected me negatively for a while. Jesus says, it is easier for a camel to fit through the eye of a needle than a rich person to go to heaven. Unfortunately I am a genius, with great work ethic and the ability to easily climb social hierarchies. So I would apply for jobs that were bottom of the barrel and then get to a 6 figure position within a couple of years and then quit because I felt like having money would make me go to hell. 
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I also took, turn the other cheek too seriously and allowed myself to be abused and to be a door mat.  I began to hate christianity. I thought at first, if God was real, certainly even me destroying myself is worth it, because following him is more important than earthly pleasures. No matter how hard I tried, I couldn't force myself to believe though. Finally I accepted God was not real. 

I read something in a Bible that said, cast your bread among the water and it will return 3 fold. Without telling anybody I took a piece of bread and threw it in a toilet and flushed it. I shit you not, 3 days later, I went to the bathroom and 3 pieces of bread were floating in the toilet.  

Another time, I was in am accident and an angel came to me. He said that God Loves me and will take care of me. He comforted me. 

I brushed off these things as my mind playing tricks on me, but a few years ago, a belief just came over me. I can't explain it.


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Yassine
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@Incel-chud

A bit of both. As a kid I studied the bibble very hard. Reading it over and over, and taking it very literally. It affected me negatively for a while. Jesus says, it is easier for a camel to fit through the eye of a needle than a rich person to go to heaven.
- There is an Arabic expression, "hatta yalija jamal fi sammi lkhyat" = "until the jamal fits through the eye of a needle" The word 'jamal' means camel (the latter is actually a latinization of the former), but it can also mean a thick rope. So the expression translates to, "until the thick rope fits through the eye of a needle" meaning: it's impossible. Jesus spoke Aramaic, which as the same semitic colloquial vartiants of the word 'jamal' as Arabic.


Unfortunately I am a genius, with great work ethic and the ability to easily climb social hierarchies. So I would apply for jobs that were bottom of the barrel and then get to a 6 figure position within a couple of years and then quit because I felt like having money would make me go to hell. 
- It didn't occur to you all those wealthy White Christians greeding around...?


I also took, turn the other cheek too seriously and allowed myself to be abused and to be a door mat.  I began to hate christianity. I thought at first, if God was real, certainly even me destroying myself is worth it, because following him is more important than earthly pleasures. No matter how hard I tried, I couldn't force myself to believe though. Finally I accepted God was not real. 
- Interesting! You should've become Muslim then.


I read something in a Bible that said, cast your bread among the water and it will return 3 fold. Without telling anybody I took a piece of bread and threw it in a toilet and flushed it. I shit you not, 3 days later, I went to the bathroom and 3 pieces of bread were floating in the toilet.  
Another time, I was in am accident and an angel came to me. He said that God Loves me and will take care of me. He comforted me. 
I brushed off these things as my mind playing tricks on me, but a few years ago, a belief just came over me. I can't explain it.
- How did you deal with the doubts & the contentious things in the Bible & Christianity?

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Yassine
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@Reece101
Just you walking me through it.
- Any specific thing about it made you go, "na'ah, this is BS"?


I can’t say I can point to any specifics. You know how it is. Gradual changes.
- What are you now?


Like DNA. For all they know Allah designed it. Those damn geneticists telling us who we’re related to. First it was our family, now it’s animals? Don’t make me laugh. I’m not related to a monkey, we look nothing alike.
- LOL! Indeed, Allah designed all things.
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@Yassine
And mainstream religion isn't weird?

Well no, not if you have a conditioned mindset.

A mindset that's prepared to accept old Middle Eastern folk tales as a reasonable hypothesis.

Whereas, it is clearly apparent that material development has moved on a tad since those days of ignorance,

But you just take this for granted, 

Yet you happily tap away at your device, when all that your omniscient saviours could achieve was tablets of stone.

And it's also clear that things are still developing, and therefore logical to suggest that material development will continue developing way way into the future,

Maybe with us, maybe without us.

And all this may or may not be purposeful....The jury is is still out, and will continue to be out for as long the appropriate knowledge remains undiscovered..

All that I do, is propose a reasonable purpose, which I refer to as the continuation of the universal sequence....Or the re-initiation of matter.


And the difference between you and I is,

I am a 21st century man trying to think ahead,

Whereas, you are a 21st century man who prefers to think backwards.


Of course there's still a 50/50 chance that everything is pointless.

We just don't know,

Which is probably just as well,

Otherwise the futility of internet religious forum arguments, wouldn't be quite so entertaining.
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Reece101
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@Yassine
- Any specific thing about it made you go, "na'ah, this is BS"?
I don’t know, it all sort of built up into a large mound. 

- What are you now?
I have no idea. What makes the most logical sense? 

- LOL! Indeed, Allah designed all things.
If it doesn’t lead to Allah, then it’s not science. Amirite?
#58
Incel-chud
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@Yassine
Unfortunately I am a genius, with great work ethic and the ability to easily climb social hierarchies. So I would apply for jobs that were bottom of the barrel and then get to a 6 figure position within a couple of years and then quit because I felt like having money would make me go to hell. 
- It didn't occur to you all those wealthy White Christians greeding around...?

I just thought they were unwilling to be uncomfortable to save their soul.

 How did you deal with the doubts & the contentious things in the Bible & Christianity?
NY digging deeper into them. Learning the culture at the time, studying the words that the verses were interpreted from. Learning the events at that time, etc. 

For example. The turning the other cheek I mentioned thinking it was a command to be a door mat. The speech was about how to commit a non violent revolution, like grand did. The Roman's would only be allowed to smack people with their left hand, so by presenting your other cheek, they were forced to smack you with the incorrect hand. 

The same speech he says, if your enemy asks you to carry their belongings one mile, carry them 2, because Roman law said romans were only allowed to have the community they were occupying carry stuff for one mile.

With the camel and the eye of the needle. Jesus did not make up the phrase. A lot of rabbis before him used it, so I looked at the context those rabbis said it in. The rabbis meant it was hard and used it as a way to just help get the message across. 

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@Yassine
This site was my first exposure to logical critique of my fundamentalist religious views. 

Here is the first things that pop to my mind:
  • I have rejected my certainty of Christianity being true, in fact, I now view every religion as meaningless speculation without evidence
  • My view of abortion, animal rights and morality in general have become more nuanced as I understand kantian and utilitarian ethics
  • The indoctrination of PragerU has been eradicated from my mind;
  • Political and economic issues have been brought to my attention, as well as opposing ideas to the ones I already knew
  • At the moment I think of unquestionable certainty as mostly an illusion and of science as the logical and mathematical route to becoming near-certain.
These are a lot of things I have changed my mind about. Now I have been on this site a year and am 17 so it has affected me quite a lot.

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@Yassine
Yes it is. Lack of evidence for one, does not entail lack of evidence for another..
So you are prepared to show evidence for Isra and Mi'raj- winged steeds climbing to heaven and all that?  

Atheist priests in the Vatican... huh! Christianity is dying out into a shell religion.
No, that's just what Democracy looks like.  Everybody's got a different idea.  If Freedom of Speech and Freedom of Religion ever make it to the Middle East, you will suddenly discover that there have been atheists in the Masjid al-Haram all along.

Apparently... Why bother believe then!
You see that beautiful act of comfort and compassion and human dignity- the heart of Christianity expressed in a moment and you ask "Why bother?"  The answer is manifest to those with the eyes to see and the ears to hear and the brain to acknowledge the promise of heaven within humanity itself.

When Paul says (beautifully) :

For now we see through a glass, darkly;
but then face to face:
now I know in part;
but then shall I know even as also I am known.
And now abideth faith, hope, love, these three;
but the greatest of these is love.

Even Paul put love before faith.  
- Obviously he meant divine love.
Sorry, but that's absurd.  So you think that when Paul says in the previous sentence "Love is patient, love is kind, it keeps no records of wrongs, etc" Paul is telling the Corinthians to be kind to God?  to keep no record of God's wrongs against them?  No, sorry.  One of the most essential Christian passages and you've completely missed the mark.

What compassionate God would create a hell for his children or withhold a heaven?  If God is compassionate than such realms must not exist.  If God is not compassionate than he does not merit my faith.
Why does a compassionate God imply non-existence of Heave & Hell?
You are dodging by answering a question with a question. 

Answer the question:  explain the compassion to be discovered in the creation of eternal suffering.
Explain the compassion of creating eternal paradise as a prize for winning a cruel game show called THIS MORTAL COIL.

If faith in God is contingent on compassion, doesn't that make God contingent on compassion, thus not actually God?
It could be put better but that's my argument, yes.