What have you changed your mind about?

What have you changed your mind about?

I actually used to be a very typical accepting person when it came to Islam. I was not raised to dislike it whatsoever.

It was actually by reading and listening to what both sides of the arguments said about Islam that I came to be horrified about the Hadith and Qur'an.

It has also come to my attention that unbelievably, what I am horrified by is actually a watered down translation as many of the western copies of the Qur'an are altered texts without some of the more horrific lines.

So, if you were curious, my mind was changed regarding Islam due to genuinely listening and reading about it. I actually considered both sides of the argument fully and have come to know of the cultures from many inside sources and what they say.

The preacher named Dr. Zakir Naik is a youtuber that I followed quite a bit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmCsKGnZqg8

Nothing he said made me less skeptical about Islam, I noticed his habits of double-speak and deflection but he is so good at it and so knowledgable of the Qur'an and Bible that I was impressed regardless.

I have fully understood the Islamic side of the debate

but what I don't understand is why they don't just drop the religion and become more secular, rather than cling to their religion and try to redefine it in a more peaceful manner.

I actually used to be a very typical accepting person when it came to Islam. I was not raised to dislike it whatsoever.

- Is that part of your culture?

It was actually by reading and listening to what both sides of the arguments said about Islam that I came to be horrified about the Hadith and Qur'an.

- That's doubtful. You have yet to quote a single reliable Muslim source about any Islam related thing you ever brought up.

It has also come to my attention that unbelievably, what I am horrified by is actually a watered down translation as many of the western copies of the Qur'an are altered texts without some of the more horrific lines.

- This is obviously nonsense. Countless versions of Quran translations are available in heaps in print & online. Do you have any examples of such horrific lines from the Quran?

So, if you were curious, my mind was changed regarding Islam due to genuinely listening and reading about it. I actually considered both sides of the argument fully and have come to know of the cultures from many inside sources and what they say.

- I have been engaging with you for a while, 'genuine' is the furthest thing from reality. In truth, you're a simple hater with no desire for understanding whatsoever. This isn't a bad thing per se, we all have our own biases. But it's a good start to admit it.

I'm sure he impresses on the laity. But he doesn't know much of anything. Zakir Naik is salafi btw. Regardless, which of his statements was objectionable to you?

but what I don't understand is why they don't just drop the religion and become more secular, rather than cling to their religion and try to redefine it in a more peaceful manner.

- Maybe because it is objectively superior to Secularism & is also objectively more peaceful.

let's have a debate: Islam vs. Secularism. You're confident that Islam is so bad compared to Secularism, show us why that is the case. I'll let you pick whatever specific topics to include -or exclude- in that comparison (Islam vs. Secularism). What exactly would you want to compare between Islam & Secularism?

but if you mean that is it part of Western democracies to accept and tolerate Islam, yes that is definitely part of them.

They are almost infinitely more accepting of Islam than Islamic cultures are of them, for instance.

It is actually very curious that they are expected to alter laws to protect Muslims from restriction and persecution

but that Islamic nations would never do the same in reverse.

The only Islamic culture to properly tolerate outsiders influencing its culture seems to be Dubai in the UAE and that's just out of pragmatism as it's expat-reliant in its economics. Even there, fasting for Ramadan and other things get enforced by law (but instead of the fast itself being mandated, you are allowed to not fast but need to do it privately etc)

I have even quoted the Qur'an and Hadith themselves, it's you who chooses to ignore them and dismiss what I say as relevant.

I am not interested in your approval anyway as you approving of my source has little impact on the source's validity.

https://www.aieti.eu/wp-content/uploads/AIETI_2_JQ_Manipulation.pdf

https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.940.5843&rep=rep1&type=pdf

https://therevealer.org/introducing-the-quran-to-europeans-the-orientalism-of-translation/

Thanks for your opinion of my agenda. I seem to know what I think and feel better than you do, though.

how is it either of those 2 things?

then the debate should be entitled Sharia vs Secularism because if you want to make it Islam vs, it should be Islam vs Atheism or vs Agnosticism. Secularism refers to the law of the land in theory and enforcement no longer being related to a particular faith and inherently leads to greater tolerance of non-native faiths and cultures.

I have become less of a nihilist.

And see that it is reasonable to hypothesise a Universal purpose....A GOD PRINCIPLE....Not to be confused with A GOD.

Popular religion is just based off unscientific naivety and ideological misinformation. Science has long since been able to exceed the naivety of religion,

But remembering and transferring old data is both a blessing and a curse, allowing us to move intellectually forwards, whilst simultaneously holding us back.

Though maybe this is not so bad, and serves a regulatory purpose.

I subsequently hypothesise that the GOD PRINCIPLE is likely to be something technologically inspired rather than directly  of human inspiration.

Given how things currently stand, this would seem to conform to a logical evolutionary process. (Material evolution)

Interesting question and I like a non-toxic religion forum post. However, I don’t think I have an answer for this one. My Christian beliefs have only been reinforced after a lot of thinking I’ve done.

-->@oromagi

- What changed?

-->@oromagi

- That would do it. Why are you a Catholic?

Not much of what I hold dear spiritually meshes with monotheism.

So not much changes but I don't get to interact with people who aren't practice outside Christianity. It's always better to get info/ views from a practitioner.

Born to it.  I don't think any priest would consider my philosophy in accordance with the Apostle's Creed.

 What are your contentions against said Creed?

What makes you hold on to Catholicism?

What would change your mind or convince you otherwise?

Yes I am actually a polytheist. Most of the gods I worship/ work with are Germanic or Norse. A few are outside that. 

I've been arguing with you lot about faith, mostly Islam, for a while now. I'm curious, have any of you changed your mind or revised your views about the religion or any topic regarding Islam after our exchanges. If so, what topic? Why? Or why not? 

-->@oromagi

- So it's about culture to you, not necessarily faith & devotion?

What level of proof would you require to change your mind about your faith?

Hypothetically, would you give up your faith to secure a prodigious opportunity or spare yourself a great harm?

I hold those beliefs due to my interaction with various gods via meditation, shamanic journeying and ritual.

I believe all the gods we know of are distinct beings and that they can help us to improve ourselves and in return expect us to help others.

They also have knowledge of how spirit and the universe works that we don't.

Worship is done with prayers, offerings, ritual and works for others. Also tending to the Earth and spirits of the dead and land.